Author Topic: Kinda Shocking  (Read 26201 times)  

Offline mwvickers

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #100 on: July 31, 2009, 03:52:18 PM »
I also had not heard the word pluralism used in connection with religion.  I've heard it in reference to polygamy, but in that case the man is married to more than one wife.  I don't know of anyone who belongs to more than one church or religion.  Some families contain more than one religion and the children are pushed to one, the other or both (to have exposure to them), or to neither of them.

Many people are in a particular religion because that is what they were raised in.  Others rebel and reject it all or find another religion that they can connect with.

Religious pluralism does not mean one is following many religions at once.  Someone who adheres to religious pluralism believes that there is more than one way to get to God (or doesn't believe that there is only one way). 

In other words, if someone claims "all roads lead to God," that person is a religious pluralist. 

Does that help?

Martin

Offline mlewis78

  • Status: Edgar Allan Poe
  • *******
  • Posts: 5910
  • Gender: Female
  • New York, NY
  • Member #3406
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #101 on: July 31, 2009, 03:56:11 PM »
I understand what you are saying, but I hadn't heard the label before in reference to religion.

Quite a different meaning than how it's used with the term "plural marriage."

New York, NY
Flutist, Legal Services Professional
Readers:  Paperwhite 2 (2013), Fire HD6 (2014 pink), 2012 K4(black), K4(silver), KFHD 7", K3 that won't charge, Kindle DX (US), Sony PRS-350, B&N Nook STR and Bookeen Cybook Opus

Offline mwvickers

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #102 on: July 31, 2009, 04:02:52 PM »
I understand what you are saying, but I hadn't heard the label before in reference to religion.

Quite a different meaning than how it's used with the term "plural marriage."



Ah.  I agree.  Though I must admit I've never heard the term "plural marriage."  I learn something new every day.  LOL

Offline marianneg

  • Status: Dostoevsky
  • ******
  • Posts: 3137
  • Gender: Female
  • Dallas, TX
    • View Profile
    • Mariannerisms: my ramblings about books, TV, and life
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #103 on: August 01, 2009, 09:41:19 AM »
Yes I have faith In Jesus and that he is son of God. That he lived on earth and died for our sins. I believe in the Blessed Mother and the Holy Trinity. I know my own faith and I have the ability to figure things out for myself within my own religion. I am a practicing Catholic and was drawn to this thread to just learn more about things OVERALL.

My questions have been based on comparison between other religions. I can believe and have full faith in being a Catholic but thats why I questioned how does one know that theirs is the "right" way to God. That doesn't change my beliefs it is just thought provoking. Just trying to learn new things or different angles to the way everyone else feel about this.


I'm Sorry to the others on the board if I said something wrong or was if my questions were taken wrong. I had no idea I wasn't posting correctly in this thread. I will refrain from posting here and just read everyone elses thoughts and views from now on.

Kool, I apologize to you if my question was offensive or too probing.  Please don't quit posting, as you have been one of the biggest drivers of this conversation, IMO.  I just want to understand your position better.  Cause, from my POV, Jesus said, as recorded in John, "No man comes to the Father except through me" (emphasis mine), so I only see three possibilities in that.  1. He didn't say that and it was put in later.  2. He said it, but it was wrong.  3. It's true.  This is where the discussion lies, IMO.  If it's one of the first two, then why should we believe anything in the Bible?  But if it's true (and I do believe it is), well, doesn't that answer the question?
Read my blog about books, TV, and my life at mariannerisms.wordpress.com
Follow me on Twitter
Follow me on Pinterest
Friend me at Goodreads

Offline koolmnbv

  • Status: Arthur C Clarke
  • *****
  • Posts: 2111
  • Gender: Female
  • San Antonio,Tx
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #104 on: August 03, 2009, 06:06:07 AM »
Kool, I apologize to you if my question was offensive or too probing.  Please don't quit posting, as you have been one of the biggest drivers of this conversation, IMO.  I just want to understand your position better.  Cause, from my POV, Jesus said, as recorded in John, "No man comes to the Father except through me" (emphasis mine), so I only see three possibilities in that.  1. He didn't say that and it was put in later.  2. He said it, but it was wrong.  3. It's true.  This is where the discussion lies, IMO.  If it's one of the first two, then why should we believe anything in the Bible?  But if it's true (and I do believe it is), well, doesn't that answer the question?

Thank you, I understand and maybe I misunderstood your other post. I just did not want to post if my questions were becoming irritating to anyone or if my smaller amount of knowledge seemed lacking.

I understand your three points, and I agree. I believe #3 is right.

But my question lies somewhere in #2. I DO NOT think Jesus was wrong, I believe he is part man part God so therefore he knows that "No Man comes to the father except through me" (him.)

I know that and I believe that without a doubt, But my human mind makes me wonder if someone has less knowledge of God and/or was never given a proper way to find God, was kept away from God in a home void of God etc. and without any divine intervention but yet they lead a Good life.
They were a good person despite never finding God or having that belief or religion or knowledge. I also believe that God is merciful and will see all of that.

MY question is basically are there special circumstances? Do you think there is one way to God but yet God see's all so he knows who is worthy regardless of how they got there?

Offline mwvickers

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #105 on: August 03, 2009, 05:25:15 PM »

I know that and I believe that without a doubt, But my human mind makes me wonder if someone has less knowledge of God and/or was never given a proper way to find God, was kept away from God in a home void of God etc. and without any divine intervention but yet they lead a Good life.
They were a good person despite never finding God or having that belief or religion or knowledge. I also believe that God is merciful and will see all of that.

MY question is basically are there special circumstances? Do you think there is one way to God but yet God see's all so he knows who is worthy regardless of how they got there?

koolmnbv (and others who are asking these questions),

I think you may find the following talk helpful.  The speaker is William Lane Craig.  I summarized him (hopefully well) earlier regarding the types of religious pluralism.

In this talk, he deals with the questions you are asking.  I think his view is interesting, cogent, and very possible.  I say possible, in that it is only one possibility in answering the questions you are asking. 

Here is the link to the site:  http://www.veritas.org/media/talks/589

You can either simply listen, or you can watch the video and see Craig give his presentation.  It is probably about an hour long, but it is well worth it.

I hope it helps and encourages you as much as it did me. 

Martin

Offline koolmnbv

  • Status: Arthur C Clarke
  • *****
  • Posts: 2111
  • Gender: Female
  • San Antonio,Tx
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #106 on: August 03, 2009, 07:09:41 PM »
Thank You Martin, I will watch the link and report back here (with more questions I'm sure  :))

Thanks again for pointing me in the direction.

Offline mwvickers

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #107 on: August 04, 2009, 06:02:51 AM »
Thank You Martin, I will watch the link and report back here (with more questions I'm sure  :))

Thanks again for pointing me in the direction.

No problem.  I love William Lane Craig.  He is very articulate and intelligent.  I hope you don't think I am simply "passing the buck," so to speak.  I just think Craig offers good, clear explanations, and I could only muddle them up if I tried to repeat them.  LOL

Offline koolmnbv

  • Status: Arthur C Clarke
  • *****
  • Posts: 2111
  • Gender: Female
  • San Antonio,Tx
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #108 on: August 04, 2009, 07:36:47 AM »
Martin I don't and would not think you are passing the buck. You have taken considerable time throughout this thread on many different areas/subjects and explained your views in great detail. I appreciate all that you have posted and look forward to watching the link.

Thanks again.

Offline mwvickers

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #109 on: August 06, 2009, 06:13:33 AM »
Just curious if anyone watched/listened to the link.  If so, what did you think? 

Offline geoffthomas

  • Status: Jules Verne
  • *********
  • Posts: 21617
  • Gender: Male
  • Derwood, Maryland
  • Member 2434
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #110 on: August 13, 2009, 03:59:19 AM »
OK I guess it is time for me to start on this issue.

Background:
I spent my childhood and early adult life as a Roman Catholic. At one time was contemplating joining the Society of Mary (Marianists) and petitioning to enter Seminary for the Priesthood. Issues about that another time. Am now in a Southern Baptist Convention member fellowship and I am an ordained deacon. This is both pastoral and Stephen ministry (the first deacon). I do not mention this as a form of "credentials" - rather I mention it so that you will know where I am coming from.  I think we already had that problem a little with Kool and MLewis.

Point:
Almost all churches that call themselves Christian will admit at a theological level that there is one God and that he was and is the God of the Jews.  We believe in the Old Testament and that is taken from Jewish texts after all.  So when God decided to become man and walk among us (Jesus) and die for us he became a Jew.  And the salvation (promised to the chosen people in the OT) was for them.  The early Christians were Jews.  Along with Paul's "experience" came the directive to take the word to the pagan (us).  We therefore have joined the Chosen People and are modern day "Jews".  Faithwise - we are not different.  The majority of the Jewish people (ethnically) do not recognize Jesus as God and as their Messiah.  We do.  
Islam believes that the OT and the NT are valid works of scripture.  They just believe that Jesus is not God but a "great prophet". Mohamed is not God either but a greater prophet.  They believe that Christians harm the memory of Jesus by calling him God.  So they say that they are of the same basic faith, but correct.  And their practices are based upon guilt (long story- theology another time). And they also believe in conversion by force. (Not a very nice practice). Not a lot of love here.

So what I am trying to say is that the three major religions that we have been talking about are all based on worship of the same God.  But extremely different paths.  So much so that many people would say that they don't believe in anything the same.  But notice that only Christians believe in getting to Heaven through faith in Christ.  Even today most Jewish people (by numbers and this split has always existed) do not believe that there is an after life.

This is the beginning of my comments on this thread.  And I want to point out that the original issue was Christians in this country saying that they believed that all (or many) religions would get you to heaven.

Gotta run.
More Later.

Just tryin to be sayin......
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 08:15:08 AM by geoffthomas »

Miss you, Dona, Jeff & Harvey! | Member since 02/27/2009 | e-books by Lynn Abbey, CJ Cherryh, & Jane Fancher
TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch)

Offline geoffthomas

  • Status: Jules Verne
  • *********
  • Posts: 21617
  • Gender: Male
  • Derwood, Maryland
  • Member 2434
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #111 on: August 13, 2009, 05:46:25 AM »
I have a chance to add a little now, so I will do so rather than wait for any responses to what I already wrote.
Again a preface:
I believe that we all are seeking truth. And as such all my comments are made in the spirit of love.
The same love that drives Martin to try to bring the truth to all mankind so that he can see everyone in heaven one day.  I share that love and drive.
I think that most of us know each other from other threads. And some of us only participate in a few and maybe only this book klub.
So Kool knows that I know her and look forward with her to the end of her pregnancy and sharing in the joy of her new baby.
Martin, I also wish you would post more pictures of your new one.
MLewis hopefully will have more joy in the next New York City KB meet.
I know most of the others strictly from the prayer thread in this book klub, so feel free to bat me on the head when you think I have strayed.  Kool and Martin will.
I want to also make it clear that I state my opinions and do not claim divine guidance or to speak on behalf of any denomination or group.
I believe in the priesthood of the believer. That is that Christ commissioned all of us to be like him and to love other men.  So I believe that we don't just get the word from some high potentate and do what they say. We are required to answer for our own actions and cannot blame someone else for guiding us.
So while I have my opinions I respect and love you for yours, even if we disagree.  I want you to enjoy eternity with our creator and that is my goal.  

One more background item:
My original major was nuclear physics with a minor in theoretical math.  I did some research on ion-drive propulsion with Lewis Research Labs of NASA. Kinda rocket science.  Now I say this only to say that I have an interest in and some knowledge of science.
In my experience and opinion.....science merely continues to prove the existence of God.  Most scientists that I know (qualified here) believe deeply in the existence of God.  
But perhaps more important for my needs is to say that math and science are not contrary to God.  And that they are not "hard and fast".  For instance we commonly say that things are concrete in Math but in matters of religion we must use faith.  OK.  Myth busting time.  One and One do NOT equal Two.  All mathematicians know this and it is an extremely long and obtuse discussion.  So please let's not go into it.  My point is that what happens in Math is that the accept it as a "given" that 1+1=2.  And we go on. Remember your plane geometry.  You always started with a theorem.  Given that x is true then yada yada.  We always are seeking after truth but we have to accept that things are not concrete but act as if they are.
In physics, we once said that atoms were the smallest things and the building blocks of everything, then we found protons and then smaller particles, etc.   Who knows what we will find next?  And it does not matter, because it does not stop real "thinkers" from accepting new info, putting it into perspective with existing info and going on.  
We should do the same in our quest for religious truth.
And not expect that math and science are fixed.

Just sayin.....
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 08:13:47 AM by geoffthomas »

Miss you, Dona, Jeff & Harvey! | Member since 02/27/2009 | e-books by Lynn Abbey, CJ Cherryh, & Jane Fancher
TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch)

Offline mwvickers

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #112 on: August 13, 2009, 06:35:19 AM »
geoff,

Good information.

A few points.  In your first post, you mentioned we are the "modern day 'Jews.'"  I'm not sure exactly what you meant by that, but if you are thinking of what is commonly called "replacement theology" (which I only know a very little about), then I think there is a correction that needs to be made.  Paul is quite clear in Romans that the Jews are still God's chosen people, though they may reject His offer.  It gets a little confusing, as there is no more dividing wall between the Jews and Gentiles in Christ, but the Gentile believers still don't replace the Jews.  I hope I didn't muddle that up too much.  LOL

Regarding math and science, I am not a scientist or mathematician, so I am speaking well outside my area, though I hope I've read enough to be able to contribute. 

I agree that there are assumptions in math and science, but math and science offer a form of "proof" that is not available in areas such as history and religion.  That does not mean, however, that something cannot be demonstrated "beyond reasonable doubt" in history and religion.  There are two types of logic: the type we normally think of, using arguments, reasons, etc., and mathematical logic.  I am admittedly not very familiar with mathematical logic (used in geometry, for example), and I am still learning about "normal" logic (I cannot remember the formal name).  The issue is which one applies to faith?  Mathematical logic does not.  But the logic often associated with philosophy does indeed.

If we say, for example, that we are going to form the following argument, logic tells us something about it:

Premise 1: All men are mortal.
Premise 2: Socrates was a man.
Conclusion: Therefore, Socrates was mortal.

In this type of logic, if both premises are true, then the conclusion is logically valid, and must be accepted unless it can be shown either that a premise is false or that the conclusion does not follow from the premise.  This is the type of logic that needs to be used in religious questions.

I hope this adds at least something to the discussion.

Thanks for the kind words, by the way.  I feel like I am constantly making new friends here, too.

Good posts. 

Offline geoffthomas

  • Status: Jules Verne
  • *********
  • Posts: 21617
  • Gender: Male
  • Derwood, Maryland
  • Member 2434
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #113 on: August 13, 2009, 08:26:17 AM »
Thanks for the feedback, Martin.
And no, I did not mean that Christians replaced the Jews.  They will always be God's Chose People. What I was referring to was that we join Judaism. That we do not, in fact, replace them in God's mind but that the "faith" is opened up to the Gentile.  We are not required to observe the OT and get circumcised in order to become Jewish. So the selectivity that God had in limiting who were his chosen people has continued but not is not limited by ethnic accident of birth. Once we have accepted Christ we are now HIS.

But just as in the OT times, only HIS people were chosen, so it is still true now. Which is the thread of continuity that provides for why all religions do NOT get one to heaven. Islam would claim that thread for it's own but we know that they have rejected Christ and therefore do not become God's Chosen.  The good news is that God is willing to accept everyone now, if they just accept his salvation. You don't have to be born in the right place or at the right time or to the right parents.  You just have to open your heart and ask God to show you the truth and accept Christ's salvation for your sins. But you do have to accept the gift.
The gift is freely given and not withheld from any (even the most vile person).  But you do have to accept the gift.

Just sayin.....

Miss you, Dona, Jeff & Harvey! | Member since 02/27/2009 | e-books by Lynn Abbey, CJ Cherryh, & Jane Fancher
TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch)

Offline mwvickers

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #114 on: August 13, 2009, 09:38:31 AM »
I see now.  Thanks for clearing that up.

Very well stated. 

Martin

Offline geoffthomas

  • Status: Jules Verne
  • *********
  • Posts: 21617
  • Gender: Male
  • Derwood, Maryland
  • Member 2434
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #115 on: August 14, 2009, 09:25:37 AM »
Hey guys,
Did I kill this thread?
If I did, I am truly sorry.
I thought to try to add some additional input to the dialogue.

I was looking forward to Mlewis, and Forster and others inputs and further opinions.
Kool may have left us temporarily for her blessed event.  She has not been on since the 4th.
And was due within the last three weeks of this month.

I will be happy to keep on contributing, if that is useful.
But don't stop because of me, please.


Miss you, Dona, Jeff & Harvey! | Member since 02/27/2009 | e-books by Lynn Abbey, CJ Cherryh, & Jane Fancher
TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch)

Offline Suzanne

  • Status: Arthur Conan Doyle
  • ****
  • Posts: 836
  • Gender: Female
  • N. Huntingdon, PA
  • No. 336
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #116 on: August 14, 2009, 10:51:42 AM »
Geoff, Heavens no, you haven't killed this thread. Please don't ever think your contributions would do that. I learn so much from what you have to say. Personally, I just haven't had anything worthwhile to add to the discussion. But I am learning a lot from yours and Martin's exchange. Suzi

Offline mwvickers

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #117 on: August 14, 2009, 11:51:53 AM »
Thanks, Suzanne.

No, Geoff, you didn't kill the thread.  I haven't posted in a while for a few reasons:

First, I felt like I may have been talking too much.  I didn't know if it seemed like I was dominating the thread, as that was not my intention.

Second, I am not sure what other points haven't been addressed yet.  Allow me to sum up what I feel has been demonstrated thus far:

1. All religions are not basically the same.  The basics are actually what are very different. 

2. The only way to continue to make the claim that they are all the same (or equal) is to say that all are merely subjective, psychological projections of what we wish to be true, and are therefore all untrue in any objective, real sense.  In other words, no religion is really right, though people may find them helpful all the same.  I feel that this does great injustice to religions, as it basically reduces them all to mere wishful thinking in reality. 

3. Claiming that saying there is one way (religious particularism) is wrong because it is exclusive and choosing to accept a pluralistic view does not help, because the pluralistic view is itself exclusivistic.  In other words, to claim that only the view of religious pluralism is right is just as exclusive of a claim as saying that only one religion is right.  In both cases, one is saying a certain way (or worldview) is right and all others that oppose it are wrong.

4. Because all the religions are not the same, we are left with only two options: Either one is right, and the rest are wrong, or all are essentially wrong.  All cannot be right.

5. Religious knowledge, like history and philosophy, is based on logic, reason, and facts or evidence.  One cannot "prove" religion in a mathematical or possibly scientific sense.  But one can use facts, logic, and reason, and evidence to demonstrate a religion true or valid "beyond reasonable doubt," much in the same way that we make decisions with a trial in a court of law.

6. It may be easier to focus on the Christian religion, because Jesus made an exclusive claim to be the only way to God.  If He was right, then all other religions are wrong insofar as they differ from what Christianity teaches.   

7. The New Testament is very reliable insofar as we know that what we have now is, indeed, what was originally written.  That does not make it true, but one cannot claim that it has been altered in transmission without literally throwing out almost any other historical record with the NT, as the number of mansucripts and the close proximity to the original writings and events that took place is far greater for the NT than for any other ancient historical document that I am aware of. 

8. Historically and archaeologically, the NT has been shown to be accurate in things such as people, places, dates, etc.  If the Bible is trustworthy in those areas, which we can check, then to be fair, we should give them the benefit of the doubt (innocent until proven guilty) in areas we cannot check, such as truth claims, faith matters, etc.  This is how we treat everyone else in life, so why make it different with the NT? 

9. Jesus was not a legend, and as C.S. Lewis said, He did not leave it open to think of Him merely as a good, moral teacher.  He claimed to be the Lord and God of all.  He was either lying, insane, or telling the truth.   If He was lying, He was not a good, moral teacher.  If He was insane, then one wouldn't want to follow Him either, and nothing in His life points to insanity as an option, as He is always in full control of Himself and His faculties.  Therefore, it is logical to think He was telling the truth, and He is Lord and God, and the only way to God the Father. 

I think this sums up what we have discussed so far, and I think it has been well-demonstrated, or so I hope.  If I have left anything out, please let me know, and I will go back and edit this.

Martin
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 12:02:12 PM by mwvickers »

Offline mwvickers

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #118 on: August 17, 2009, 07:52:30 AM »
Now I think I killed the thread.  LOL

Offline geoffthomas

  • Status: Jules Verne
  • *********
  • Posts: 21617
  • Gender: Male
  • Derwood, Maryland
  • Member 2434
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #119 on: August 17, 2009, 08:20:55 AM »
I was kinda looking forward to some dialogue with folks like Forster and Mlewis and others who had some nice input at the beginning of this thread.
As you and I pretty much agree - at least on basics of this point - it is hard to know where to go with it.

The original premise reflects a "feel-good" approach to life that worries me.
It discards taking the bible as the serious "word of God" (don't really have to accept Jesus to get to heaven).
Because it does not mention them specifically, it does seem to include satanism and other "religions" as being good routes to heaven.
And it says that some folks don't seem to want to work hard at following God's will.
It is true that it is no fun to deal with the possibility that a whole lot of people will not go to heaven.  Including some really "nice" people.

Just sayin......

Miss you, Dona, Jeff & Harvey! | Member since 02/27/2009 | e-books by Lynn Abbey, CJ Cherryh, & Jane Fancher
TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch)

Offline mwvickers

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #120 on: August 17, 2009, 08:30:14 AM »
I was kinda looking forward to some dialogue with folks like Forster and Mlewis and others who had some nice input at the beginning of this thread.
As you and I pretty much agree - at least on basics of this point - it is hard to know where to go with it.

I agree.

Quote
The original premise reflects a "feel-good" approach to life that worries me.

To a degree, yes.  I think that the question of God and religion is the most important we can consider, and it deserves the most thought we can possibly give it to be as certain as possible that we are correct.

Quote
It discards taking the bible as the serious "word of God" (don't really have to accept Jesus to get to heaven).

Essentially, yes.  I hope, however, that the way I went about making my case didn't merely rely on quoting the Bible.  It's not that I feel the Bible is not worthy of quotation or that it is not true, but most people today aren't convinced that the Bible is even reliable, must less the word of God.  I hope that my case was built on reason, and demonstrated logically my case, building up to a trust in the claims of the Bible rather than simply assuming it from the beginning.

Quote
Because it does not mention them specifically, it does seem to include satanism and other "religions" as being good routes to heaven.

Indeed.  If "all paths" lead to God, then it includes things as various as atheism (which is a worldview), agnosticism, Satanism, etc.  If one begins to draw a line as to which paths do and don't lead to God, one must then find a reason to support his or her claims.  In other words, before a person can say that something is right or wrong, one must have some kind of standard by which he or she can judge.  Unfortunately, this is where subjective feelings cannot help, as we can all feel something that is in complete contradiction to what others hold, and both cannot be right logically.

Quote
And it says that some folks don't seem to want to work hard at following God's will.

Well, this applies to Christians too, I think.  I am not suggesting that those who claim that all roads lead to God have not actually thought it through.  They may have.  I hope, though, that they continue to do so, especially in light of the arguments that I have provided, which I feel demonstrate that that view is not logically possible without reducing all religions to mere subjective, phsychological ideas. 

Quote
It is true that it is no fun to deal with the possibility that a whole lot of people will not go to heaven.  Including some really "nice" people.

Just sayin......

Indeed.  It is a very difficult concept.  But one that must be dealt with without resorting to an attempt at religious pluralism, I think, which doesn't truly solve the problem. 

That is where William Lane Craig's audio comes in handy, I think.

Martin

Offline mlewis78

  • Status: Edgar Allan Poe
  • *******
  • Posts: 5910
  • Gender: Female
  • New York, NY
  • Member #3406
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #121 on: August 17, 2009, 01:30:43 PM »
The original premise reflects a "feel-good" approach to life that worries me.
It discards taking the bible as the serious "word of God" (don't really have to accept Jesus to get to heaven).
Because it does not mention them specifically, it does seem to include satanism and other "religions" as being good routes to heaven.
And it says that some folks don't seem to want to work hard at following God's will.
It is true that it is no fun to deal with the possibility that a whole lot of people will not go to heaven.  Including some really "nice" people.

Just sayin......

I'll have to re-read the first post in this thread.  I hope you were not referring to the Boyd sermon that I posted, because he's not into the "feel-good" stuff or "anything goes" approach.  Certainly not satanism!

Sorry I haven't posted in here for a while.  I want to.  Have been busy despite being unemployed.  But also I need to be careful when posting about a religios topic.  I don't want to put myself into a box or wear a label and be misunderstood.  It's such a personal thing.  The more I think about my beliefs and try to practice them, the more they evolve.  It's not static.

Marti
New York, NY
Flutist, Legal Services Professional
Readers:  Paperwhite 2 (2013), Fire HD6 (2014 pink), 2012 K4(black), K4(silver), KFHD 7", K3 that won't charge, Kindle DX (US), Sony PRS-350, B&N Nook STR and Bookeen Cybook Opus

Offline mwvickers

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #122 on: August 17, 2009, 01:41:52 PM »
I'll have to re-read the first post in this thread.  I hope you were not referring to the Boyd sermon that I posted, because he's not into the "feel-good" stuff or "anything goes" approach.  Certainly not satanism!

I can't speak for Geoff, but I was not thinking of that sermon.

I think that what Geoff meant by "feel-good" is the idea that many people have that we cannot accept the idea of people going to hell because it doesn't feel right or something along those lines.  It feels better to assume that all roads lead to God than it does to accept the possibility that some (or maybe many) or wrong and in error, which could have dire consequences.  I'm not saying you think this, but I do know that many do.  It seems that many accept the "all roads lead to God" argument not based on any good reason or logic, but merely because it feels better than the particularist option. 

As far as Satanism is concerned, I'm the one who pointed that out earlier.  I was making the point that if "all roads lead to God," then Satanism will too.  It is, after all, a religious road.  If one holds to pluralism, and that we all simply worship the same God in different ways, then the Satanist, who has no problem harming another to get his or her own way (which doesn't follow the "golden rule"), is just as justified in his or her beliefs as the one who claims that we should all "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  I hope that makes sense. 

If one claims, however, that Satanists are not worshipping God, then one must figure out how they know their standard is right and the Satanist's is wrong, which comes back to an exclusive or particular claim. 

Quote
Sorry I haven't posted in here for a while.  I want to.  Have been busy despite being unemployed.  But also I need to be careful when posting about a religios topic.  I don't want to put myself into a box or wear a label and be misunderstood.  It's such a personal thing.  The more I think about my beliefs and try to practice them, the more they evolve.  It's not static.

Marti

I understand busy.  I have a 10-week-old daughter.  LOL

There's nothing wrong with labels, if they are accurate. 

Yes, I think we are all always "evolving" in the sense that we learn as we go. 

At the same time, only in a Western mindset is religion a personal or private thing.  In Eastern cultures (where Christianity started), it was very much communal.  We have made it personal, which was, in my opinion, an attempt to remove morality and religious claims from the area of objectivity (being true in all places and at all times) into a subjective realm (true to individuals).  If religion is personal only, then anything goes, and we have only subjective reality and truths.  But, as pointed out earlier, this doesn't logically work.  If it is personal only, then for the person who believes in many gods, that's true, for the person who believes in one God, that's true, and for the person who believes in no god, that's true.  As stated before, all cannot be true. 

Let me clearly state, I do NOT think that is what you were trying to do when you said it was personal to you.  I am just pointing out that many do this.  Unfortunately, relative truths don't work.  Relative beliefs can; but not relative truths. 

Blessings.

Martin

Offline geoffthomas

  • Status: Jules Verne
  • *********
  • Posts: 21617
  • Gender: Male
  • Derwood, Maryland
  • Member 2434
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #123 on: August 17, 2009, 02:48:04 PM »
I'll have to re-read the first post in this thread.  I hope you were not referring to the Boyd sermon that I posted, because he's not into the "feel-good" stuff or "anything goes" approach.  Certainly not satanism!

Sorry I haven't posted in here for a while.  I want to.  Have been busy despite being unemployed.  But also I need to be careful when posting about a religios topic.  I don't want to put myself into a box or wear a label and be misunderstood.  It's such a personal thing.  The more I think about my beliefs and try to practice them, the more they evolve.  It's not static.

Marti
Marti,
So glad to have you posting in the thread.  I often state things in a very opinionated way.  And I will say that I have strong opinions. Of what is correct for me and what my behavior should be.  But I am always interested in learning other peoples opinions.  This often helps me to learn to say what I mean more clearly.  Or even to modify or delete those parts of a discussion that are not necessary to understanding. Please keep posting.

Miss you, Dona, Jeff & Harvey! | Member since 02/27/2009 | e-books by Lynn Abbey, CJ Cherryh, & Jane Fancher
TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch)

Offline mlewis78

  • Status: Edgar Allan Poe
  • *******
  • Posts: 5910
  • Gender: Female
  • New York, NY
  • Member #3406
    • View Profile
Re: Kinda Shocking
« Reply #124 on: August 17, 2009, 02:52:26 PM »
I don't like labeling people or labeling myself, but I know that we all unconsciously do it anyway.  In my real life, some people are astounded when they hear about something I do (or know how to do) or think because they thought they knew everything about me.  This is not usually about religion/belief in God, but it is an example about labeling and putting someone in a box.
New York, NY
Flutist, Legal Services Professional
Readers:  Paperwhite 2 (2013), Fire HD6 (2014 pink), 2012 K4(black), K4(silver), KFHD 7", K3 that won't charge, Kindle DX (US), Sony PRS-350, B&N Nook STR and Bookeen Cybook Opus