Author Topic: Week 1. Discuss prologue to ch10, read ch11 to ch21  (Read 1449 times)  

Offline jason10mm

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Week 1. Discuss prologue to ch10, read ch11 to ch21
« on: May 06, 2012, 06:03:23 PM »
ASOS week 1. Discuss prologue to chapter 10 (Davos), read Chapter 11(Jamie) to Ch 21 (Jamie) page 244/loc 5601

1.   Some of the Nights Watch want to munity. Do you sympathize with them or are they just returning to their criminal roots?

2.   Chapter one is the first time we have had a Jamie POV. What do you think of him? As monstrous as you expected or more human?

3.   Any thoughts on who Tansy is, whose [illegitimate person] child she had, and why Lord Holster is thinking of her?

4.   Catelyns plan to exchange Jamie for Sansa and Arya seems ill-conceived at best. Is she justifiably angry with Edmure for trying to get him back?

5.   Is Arya having wolf dreams or just dreams?

6.   Davos thinks he hears the voice of The Mother as he is rescued. Do you think actual gods play a part in ASOIAF?

7.   Sansa meets the Queen of Thorns (Margaerys grandmother). Have the Lannisters met their match for scheming and plotting?

8.   Jon meets Mance Rayder. Is Mance evil (as the Nights Watch portrays him) or does he have a more noble purpose? Are there any actual evil people in ASOIAF?

9.   Ser Jorah professes his love to Dany. Would he be a wise match for her or should she resist his advances?

10.    Bran is told of the Greenseers, wargs who can possess any beast and see through the weirwoods. Is one of them guiding anyone now? Who else in this series might be a warg?

Offline VondaZ

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Re: Week 1. Discuss prologue to ch10, read ch11 to ch21
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 05:27:16 PM »
1.   Some of the Nights Watch want to munity. Do you sympathize with them or are they just returning to their criminal roots?

Can't say I sympathize with them - especially with how cruel they are to Sam. Can't say I am surprised either, though. When you are getting most of your recruits from the dungeons, you are not exactly getting a noble, loyal, honorable bunch.

2.   Chapter one is the first time we have had a Jamie POV. What do you think of him? As monstrous as you expected or more human?

I was very glad to finally get some chapters from Jaime's point of view. I don't think I have ever viewed Jaime as "monstrous" (I would reserve that term for the likes of Roose/Ramsey Bolton and Gregor Clegane and the such) - even though I haven't had a very good impression of him to this point. I have always thought of him as more arrogant and a little rude/heartless in his dealings with others (as we see with his treatment of Brie) and power hungry - although the more we see of him, the less I think he has any real desire for power - but I do think he enjoys his position and his wealth.

I look forward to getting a better look into his head and I hope we get to see him interact with Tyrion from his point of view at some point in this book. I don't expect that I will ever be a Jaime fan (although you never know - I wouldn't have expected to become a Tyrion fan at the start of GoT either), but I have more hope for the character now than I have had in the past.

3.   Any thoughts on who Tansy is, whose [illegitimate person] child she had, and why Lord Holster is thinking of her?

My thought was the same as Catelyn's - that he was talking about Lysa - but I have no idea why he would call her Tansy. If so, I would guess he is thinking of her because he confuses Catelyn with her sister often. If I had to take a guess at whose [illegitimate person] child she had, I would have to go with Littlefinger. Littlefinger claims to have slept with Catelyn but she has always denied this and I have no reason to think she is lying - but perhaps he actually slept with Lysa.

4.   Catelyns plan to exchange Jamie for Sansa and Arya seems ill-conceived at best. Is she justifiably angry with Edmure for trying to get him back?

It sounds like Catelyn is just tired of war and defeated in the loss of her husband and supposedly her children as well. It seems like she has given up and just wants to put together what is left of her family.

5.   Is Arya having wolf dreams or just dreams?

I think she is having wolf dreams and I hope we get to see her wolf again soon.

6.   Davos thinks he hears the voice of The Mother as he is rescued. Do you think actual gods play a part in ASOIAF?

Up to this point, everything in the book has been driven by the characters and not the gods, so at this time, I do not think that the gods play an active part. I do believe the character's behavior is often driven by their beliefs and I am not sure if we will see some "higher power" influencing events or just the belief in such things influencing characters. Sometimes it does seem like there is some "destiny" at work, but that is just an impression.

7.   Sansa meets the Queen of Thorns (Margaerys grandmother). Have the Lannisters met their match for scheming and plotting?

Margaery's grandmother sure does seem to be on top of what is going on, but I don't know yet what her motives are. She seemed to disdain the struggle for power that her son is involved with. Yet by trying to secure a union with Sansa, could she possibly be trying to create allies of the North who might otherwise end up enemies? I am unsure of where this is going.

8.   Jon meets Mance Rayder. Is Mance evil (as the Nights Watch portrays him) or does he have a more noble purpose? Are there any actual evil people in ASOIAF?

There are a few people that I do think of as evil (those I listed earlier like the Boltons and Gregor Clegane and possibly also Melissandre [unless we start to see another side of her as well - so far we haven't]). Those characters that seem to delight in torture and brutality. However, those characters with real power and influence, I suspect will always be more 3-dimensional as it would be difficult to gain the support of all of Westeros while being totally "evil." I suspect Mance Rayder will turn out to be one of those characters with another side to him that has been ignored up until now.

9.   Ser Jorah professes his love to Dany. Would he be a wise match for her or should she resist his advances?

I think Ser Jorah really loves her. But if what she wants is to get her kingdom back, she would be better served by choosing a strategical marriage alliance. If she wants someone to love her, take care of her, and protect her so she can live a happy life, then Ser Jorah is her man. But I don't believe that is what she wants. I fear that Jorah will get his heart broken and perhaps he will be one of the people to betray her because of this.

10.    Bran is told of the Greenseers, wargs who can possess any beast and see through the weirwoods. Is one of them guiding anyone now? Who else in this series might be a warg?

I will have to consider this as the book progresses.

Offline jason10mm

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Re: Week 1. Discuss prologue to ch10, read ch11 to ch21
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2012, 06:41:27 AM »
Tansy tea is apparently a popular abortifacient in Westeros, so I can't imagine it is an endearment, it would be like calling your daughter "plan B" :)

I do think he is talking about lysa though, and how he had her abort her child with Littlefinger.

What if we got a chapter from Gregors POV about how he was molested as a child and mocked for his size and was just misunderstood? No sympathy? :)

I'm having a hard time differentiating the cold book Tywin with the more sympathetic tv Tywin. Anyone else having this problem?

Offline VondaZ

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Re: Week 1. Discuss prologue to ch10, read ch11 to ch21
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2012, 10:37:43 AM »
What if we got a chapter from Gregors POV about how he was molested as a child and mocked for his size and was just misunderstood? No sympathy? :)

Anything can change. The more insight we are given into any character, the more the potential for sympathy. However, while I wouldn't say that I could never have sympathy for Gregor given that I have little idea what actually does go on in his head, I would still characterize his behavior as "monstruous." He seems to make a practice of being brutal and cruel and perhaps to take pleasure in it. I would think you would have to to make a living out of it.

The only act I have seen of Jaime's that I would consider "monstruous" was when he dropped Bran from the window - and this is probably where my first nasty impressions of him were formed. However, I do not believe there is a pattern of behavior for brutality here and I don't believe he took any joy in the act. It may have been more of a cold heartless act than a "monstruous" one. A monster doesn't really calculate his actions - he just commits them uncontrollably as might an animal. Jaime is perhaps more accurately described as indifferent to other's suffering. I think he would have preferred not to have to do it, but he acts to protect his own interests.

I guess the key issue with Jaime is this: is his act of dropping Bran out the window representative of who he is and if so, in what way. I think perhaps the representative part might be his loyalty and devotion to Cersei and his need to protect her at all costs. Perhaps also representative of his character is his indifference to anyone but himself. But the brutality of the act may have been an extreme and not representative of his character (or maybe not). At any rate, I don't think he loves brutality for brutality's sake. I think that is more of a messiness for him that he would rather avoid. But time will tell, I guess.

Offline DYB

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Re: Week 1. Discuss prologue to ch10, read ch11 to ch21
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2012, 08:43:45 PM »
1.   Some of the Nights Watch want to munity. Do you sympathize with them or are they just returning to their criminal roots?

Not surprised at all, and not sympathetic at all either!  Their motivations are purely selfish (and not similar to Mance Rayder's.)  They are cruel.  Murderers and rapists.  The guy leading the revolt, who used to serve the Maester, is angry that he was essentially demoted after Sam's arrival.  Well, he sucked at his job!  But the sense of entitlement he has is off-putting.  No, whatever the shortcomings of the Night's Watch, these are not the people to follow!

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2.   Chapter one is the first time we have had a Jamie POV. What do you think of him? As monstrous as you expected or more human?

Like VondaZ, perhaps monstrous isn't the word.  But he remains unlikable.  He's really a sociopath and a pervert.  I think it was mentioned that his twin sister is the only woman he's ever had sex with?  That's the love of his life?  Even in Westeros that's frowned upon, and those people are open to all kinds of sexual deviances!  And throwing Bran out of the window was pure sociopathy.  He doesn't give a damn.  Even Cersei seems to have been more shaken by that than he was.  Perhaps because she's a mother...  Although he's a father, but - obviously - not a very active one.  (And on second thought, Cersei is a mother, but that doesn't stop her from abusing Sansa and letting Joffrey to do worse.)  And Jaime's condescension to Brienne is obnoxious.  He's definitely not a gentleman.

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3.   Any thoughts on who Tansy is, whose [illegitimate person] child she had, and why Lord Holster is thinking of her?

I have no thoughts on this...  But I guess I should since you mention it?  ;)  The suggestions that it's a reference to Lysa being forced to abort Littlefinger's child is interesting.  It's also interesting to see that John Arryn didn't really want to marry her!

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4.   Catelyns plan to exchange Jamie for Sansa and Arya seems ill-conceived at best. Is she justifiably angry with Edmure for trying to get him back?

I understand her anger, although Edmure is also justifiably angry.  Her feelings as a mother make sense.  She has now lost 2 of her children, in addition to her husband.  She wants to get her daughters back at all costs.  It's an impulsive and emotional act.  As impulsive as her decision to arrest Tyrion in GoT.  Understandable, but whether or not it's wise is up for debate!

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5.   Is Arya having wolf dreams or just dreams?

I have no idea!  Probably wolf dreams, but we haven't seen these start in the same way Bran's did.  Bran's dreams began because of a trauma and a coma.  What's Arya's excuse?  And where in the world is Nymeria!!!

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6.   Davos thinks he hears the voice of The Mother as he is rescued. Do you think actual gods play a part in ASOIAF?

Well, the characters all believe in various gods.  And their beliefs affect their actions.  So whether it's gods, or sorcery, it's definitely effecting everyone's lives.  Does Melisandre truly believe in some god, or is she just a witch and uses her god to bend others to her will?  Who knows...

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7.   Sansa meets the Queen of Thorns (Margaerys grandmother). Have the Lannisters met their match for scheming and plotting?

She's definitely an interesting character!  Right now I like her because she seems to be plotting against the Lannisters.  And Sansa could certainly use a friend in court!  The question is: does Queen of Thorns actually give a crap about Sansa?  Probably not.  I am glad that there appears to be some change in Sansa's situation.  Frankly, it was getting a bit tedious in the last book because it was the same thing over and over again.  Joffrey beats her, she cries, Cersei scoffs - rinse and repeat.  I'm hoping Martin is doing something new with her character.

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8.   Jon meets Mance Rayder. Is Mance evil (as the Nights Watch portrays him) or does he have a more noble purpose? Are there any actual evil people in ASOIAF?

He's definitely not as the Night's Watch portrays him.  At least he's not in his first meeting with Jon.  But that doesn't mean anything.  He tells Jon some pretty stories, but are they true?  If his motivation for leaving the Watch are honest - well, I can understand and sympathize.  The Watch isn't very forgiving.  But what does Rayder want?  What is his end-game?  And how did he become such a powerful figure - uniting people who, by their very nature and definition, refuse to be united and controlled -  in such a short period of time.  Obviously he didn't do it by singing songs! 

Also, it's interesting that he was actually in Winterfell during Robert's visit.  Did Martin give any hints about this in GoT? 

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9.   Ser Jorah professes his love to Dany. Would he be a wise match for her or should she resist his advances?

Hmm...this took me by surprise.  I'm surprised he's lost control of his emotions like this.  Now, we already know that Jorah was betraying Dany by giving information about her to the Baratheons.  Perhaps his feelings for her have developed into true love.  It doesn't seem like anyone in Westeros knows about the dragons yet, so perhaps Jorah has stopped giving out information about her.  I agree with Vonda that this is a relationship that can't work and yes, Dany needs to make a more strategic marriage.  (With someone like Jon!  :D )  He's bound to be disappointed.  How he will react to that....  ???

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10.    Bran is told of the Greenseers, wargs who can possess any beast and see through the weirwoods. Is one of them guiding anyone now? Who else in this series might be a warg?

No idea!


Now, what do people think of the stories that Renly's ghost was seen on the battlefield at the end of ACOK?

Offline DYB

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Re: Week 1. Discuss prologue to ch10, read ch11 to ch21
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2012, 07:58:20 PM »
Oh and Tywin in TV series vs. books.  He's definitely a lot...maybe "warmer" is not the word.  But he's a lot vicious in the show.  In the books if Arya had ever said to him "Everyone can be killed" he would have had her killed on the spot because it was obviously a threat.  Remember the story that he had someone killed for saying that Tywin s***s gold.  Maybe the word is he's more "fair" and "noble" in the show.  In the books he's a complete schmuck.  (Which is a dirty word!)  He doesn't know the truth about Jaime and Cersei, right?  I mean, he berates Tyrion for visiting whores, but he wouldn't excuse incest, would he?  Would he turn his back on Jaime and Cersei - and all of his grandchildren - if he knew they were products of incest?  What would happen to Tywin's world if there was proof out there?

Offline jason10mm

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Re: Week 1. Discuss prologue to ch10, read ch11 to ch21
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2012, 04:27:34 AM »
Now, what do people think of the stories that Renly's ghost was seen on the battlefield at the end of ACOK?

Thoughts are that is was some knight (probably Loras) wearing Renly's distinctive armor and helmet. Kind of like what they did with El Cid in Spain.

For you Jamie apologists, remember that he also ambushed Ned. I think he has a long pattern of casual cruelty. No one has "toss kid out of window" as the ONLY black mark on their record!

Offline VondaZ

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Re: Week 1. Discuss prologue to ch10, read ch11 to ch21
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2012, 02:42:15 PM »
For you Jamie apologists, remember that he also ambushed Ned. I think he has a long pattern of casual cruelty. No one has "toss kid out of window" as the ONLY black mark on their record!

Now don't take me for a Jamie apologist. I have never been a Jamie fan. I just see a distinction between Jamie's brand of cruelty and some of the more sadistic cruelty like the cruelty that Arya was exposed to (or  the sadistic cruelty of his own son Joffrey who seems to be full of hatred even when he has no reason to hate).

When Jaime ambushed Ned, he was reacting to a wrong done to his brother, which may have been a twisted, illogical, and out of proportion response, but it also makes him a bit sympathetic. There is a human element there and not just the behavior of a monster. Jaime has a history of cruel and heartless behavior - but not for the sake of being cruel and heartless. That is the only distinction I want to make. He seems to be able to do terrible things without much deliberation - but not because he enjoys doing terrible things and not because he is filled with hatred.

I look forward to hearing more from Jaime - but not because I hope to like him better. A likable Jaime would ruin the character. But I find it enjoyable to see how Jaime justifies the things he does to himself. The world through Jaime's eyes is something twisted in a kind of enthralling way. I don't really know how to explain it.

Offline DYB

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Re: Week 1. Discuss prologue to ch10, read ch11 to ch21
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2012, 04:04:53 PM »
Jaime is definitely a slippery one.  I think he's a sociopath.  He truly feels he's entitled to kill anyone he wants to.  There's no second thoughts, no regrets.  He doesn't do it for cruelty, I agree.  He just does it without any feeling whatsoever.  I think the only two people would be sorry to see harmed are Cersei and Tyrion.  His affection for Tyrion is strange.  But it's the only nice thing I've seen about him.  Everything else he does he does with indifference, including killing.  Pure sociopath. 

His killing of the Mad King is interesting.  He certainly did the world a favor.  I don't believe in that whole philosophy that a king, even a crazy one, is still a king who deserves loyalty.  I know it's how people used to think, and still do think in many parts of the world.  But I'm much more democratic than that.  And the Mad King certainly deserved to die.  Jaime justifies his actions telling people that he did them a favor.  But why did he really kill him?  What was his true motivation?  It's not because he wanted to save the world from a despot, that's for sure.  His son is becoming as much a despot!

Offline VondaZ

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Re: Week 1. Discuss prologue to ch10, read ch11 to ch21
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2012, 04:13:12 PM »
Yes - I have been wondering that myself. Why exactly does Jaime kill King Aerys? I think the stigma is not that he killed the Mad King but that he broke an oath that is held to be sacred (betrayal runs rampant in these books, but for some reason that particular betrayal is unforgivable). Jaime always has a reason for doing the things he does so why does he get his hands dirty here? It seems like it would have been easy enough for him to let someone else do the deed.

Offline DYB

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Re: Week 1. Discuss prologue to ch10, read ch11 to ch21
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2012, 08:39:24 PM »
Also, on a different note: is Thoros, the Red Priest, from the same clan as Melisandre?  Does he worship the same gods?  And is he a sorcerer with the same powers?  He's been mentioned in the series since book 1, but in passing and very little is known about him...  I'm wondering if he possesses the same powers as Melisandre....and what that means!

Offline DYB

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Re: Week 1. Discuss prologue to ch10, read ch11 to ch21
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2012, 08:40:18 PM »
And I'm also looking forward to hearing more form Jaime.  Just because he's such an enigma. 

Offline jason10mm

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Re: Week 1. Discuss prologue to ch10, read ch11 to ch21
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2012, 07:12:46 AM »
Read on, your Jamie questions will be answered :

As for the red priest, we do eventually meet others who worship R'hllor in later books. I think they are from a religion as diverse as Christianity, so maybe Melisandre is like a hardcore southern baptist while Thoros is more of a free-wheeling Lutheran :) We get a lot more about the religion of the Seven in AFFC as well, IIRC.

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