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The Fiery Cross: Week of 7/20; Reading Chps 26-38, Discuss Chps 1-25 here

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#1 ·
What a marathon read that was.  We'll be reading Chps 26-38 this week.  That's Parts 3 and 4. 

150 pages of rain, mud, blood, torn and muddy clothing and diaper changing.  But there were some nuggets contained in all that muck and mire. 

Part One
In Medias Res
Chapters 1-17

1.  Why do you think Claire felt Frank’s presence?

2.  Do you think the fact that Roger is a Protestant will have any bearing on future plots?

3.  Do you think anyone will come forward with information about the Hillsborough Riots?

4.  What do you think will be the result of England recalling all the regiments?

5.  Why was Jamie trying very hard to avoid Archie Hayes?

6.  What did you think of the incident with the thief-taker, Boble?  Any foreseeable consequences?

7.  What did you think of Mr. Maclennon's story?

8.  Do you think Bree has another reason, besides fear of childbirth, for not wanting more children?

9.  When Duncan disclosed that he was also a protestant why was that a problem for his marriage?  Do you think he should have told Jocasta?

10.  Why did Roger want Bree to have his ring?

11.  Mr. Goodwin recounts his story of Hillsborough; did it make you think there were two sides to this story?

12.  What did you think of the custom of weaving the shrouds the day after the wedding?  Does this make Bree’s fears seem more realistic?

13. What do you think Bree made of the revelations of Frank's letter?

14.  Do you think Frank's intent was to save Claire from making a choice to leave him and Bree?

15.  What did you think of Tryon’s letter to Jamie?

16.  Do you think it helped Jamie to know he saved Archie Hayes’ life at Culloden?

17.  What was your first impression of the Bugs?

18.  The Bugs brought news of Hamish.  Do you think Jamie will try to find him? 

19.  Do you think Jamie is looking for Bonnet to kill him, or is it as he tells Claire; to keep an eye on him?

20.  What do you think of Jocasta’s new plan to leave her estate to Jemmy?  Does dhe have any reason to believe that Roger would harm Jemmy to gain possession of River Run.

21.  What did you think of the arrest of the priest?  Why do you think someone wanted to stop Duncan and Jocasta being married? 

22.  Why do you think Jamie finally acknowledged Roger as “son of my house?”

23.  Why do you think Bree cannot allow herself to have an orgasm with Roger?

Part Two
The Chieftan’s Call
Chps 18-25

1.  What did you think of Roger’s shooting lesson?

2.  Why do you think Roger won’t let Claire tell Bree about his eye problems.

3.  Jamie is Catholic, yet he frequently celebrates pagan rituals.  Why do you think he does this?

4.  What did you think of the fiery cross?

5.  As Jamie says, he isn’t chief and the settlers on Fraser’s Ridge aren’t his people.  Do you think they will follow him?  Why or why not?

 
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#2 ·
Guess you guys are still stuck in the mud ;D so I'll start off.

Part One
In Medias Res
Chapters 1-17

1. Why do you think Claire felt Frank's presence?
Partly because Jamie gave her Frank's ring back, but I also think a part of her wanted him to know Bree was getting married.

2. Do you think the fact that Roger is a Protestant will have any bearing on future plots?
Jamie can't be happy about it, and I don't think Jocasta will be happy about it either.

3. Do you think anyone will come forward with information about the Hillsborough Riots?
There's always someone willing to rat on the someone else.

4. What do you think will be the result of England recalling all the regiments?
Chaos. It's like Rome recalling all the legions from Britain. Everybody is going to start fighting over who is going to be top dog.

5. Why was Jamie trying very hard to avoid Archie Hayes?
I don't think he wants to tell him his father was hanged as a thief.

6. What did you think of the incident with the thief-taker, Boble? Any foreseeable consequences?
It was too random an incident in the story not to come back to haunt us in the future. It's also another indication that these men still look to Jamie for leadership.

7. What did you think of Mr. Maclennon's story?
That was really sad. These Scots are trying to make a new life for themselves in a new world, and the English are still hounding them to death.

8. Do you think Bree has another reason, besides fear of childbirth, for not wanting more children?
At this point, it's possible that she can take Jemmy back through the stones. If she has more children, she'll never get back.

9. When Duncan disclosed that he was also a protestant why was that a problem for his marriage? Do you think he should have told Jocasta?
Yes, I think he should have told Jocasta. On the other hand, unless he objected to being married by a priest, he could just keep quiet and let the Catholic ceremony go ahead.

10. Why did Roger want Bree to have his ring?
Roger still feels like an outsider because Jamie and Bree continue to treat him like one. I don't think Claire does. He wants Bree to wear his ring, not her father's. He needs to break that bond and make a place for himself in the family.

11. Mr. Goodwin recounts his story of Hillsborough; did it make you think there were two sides to this story?
There always is. Mr. Goodwin was really an innocent caught up in the riots because he was trying to help his friend. He wasn't guilty of anything.

12. What did you think of the custom of weaving the shrouds the day after the wedding? Does this make Bree's fears seem more realistic?
Pretty morbid, but I think the Scots are morbid in general. That had to give Bree the shivers.

13. What do you think Bree made of the revelations of Frank's letter?
I think Bree understood more about why her father taught her the things he did and she now knows that he expected both her and Claire to go back to Jamie.

14. Do you think Frank's intent was to save Claire from making a choice to leave him and Bree?
Yes, I think so. He should have known, though, that Claire would never leave Bree. But it did keep her from experiencing more painful memories.

15. What did you think of Tryon's letter to Jamie?
Knowing Jamie knows from Bree and Claire, it puts Jamie right between a rock and a hard place. However, the skirmishes with the regulators are hardly a spark and the bonfire won't be lit for several more years. He still has time.

16. Do you think it helped Jamie to know he saved Archie Hayes' life at Culloden?
I think it should have, but I think he'll always suppress those memories and never really want to know.

17. What was your first impression of the Bugs?
They came along at just the right time, but I think Mrs. Bug is going to drive everybody buggy. :D

18. The Bugs brought news of Hamish. Do you think Jamie will try to find him?
He might. At least he'll tell Jocasta and she will probably try to find him.

19. Do you think Jamie is looking for Bonnet to kill him, or is it as he tells Claire; to keep an eye on him?
Both. He's keeping an eye out for that scurvy pirate, and if they cross paths again, Jamie will kill him.

20. What do you think of Jocasta's new plan to leave her estate to Jemmy? Does dhe have any reason to believe that Roger would harm Jemmy to gain possession of River Run.
Jocasta's trying to do an end run around Jamie and Bree. She'll have her way no matter what. It could be that Jocasta doesn't trust Roger because he's a protestant. There were strong anti-catholic sentiments at the time, and I'm sure the catholics reciprocated.

21. What did you think of the arrest of the priest? Why do you think someone wanted to stop Duncan and Jocasta being married?
There had to be more to it than meets the eye. I think the main purpose was to keep Duncan and Jocasta from being married. There's someone else that wants to take over River Run, and if Jocasta is married, it will be more difficult if not impossible.

22. Why do you think Jamie finally acknowledged Roger as "son of my house?"
I honestly don't think Jamie has truly accepted Roger, even though he is taking him with the militia as his right hand. I think he's just accepting the inevitable.

23. Why do you think Bree cannot allow herself to have an orgasm with Roger?
I thought at first it was because of the rape, but she herself thought it might be a control issue. I have to agree with that. She's never going to allow Roger to be his own man. She knows everything about survival; he knows nothing. She's never going to let him forget it. I don't know why she even thinks she loves him, because in my opinion, she doesn't.

Part Two
The Chieftan's Call
Chps 18-25

1. What did you think of Roger's shooting lesson?
While Bree appeared to be patient with Roger, I don't think she really was. When it came down to it, she grabbed the gun and showed him up ... again.

2. Why do you think Roger won't let Claire tell Bree about his eye problems.
Roger doesn't want to appear even more helpless in front of Jamie and Bree. He can never measure up to Jamie in the 18th Century. In his own century, he's a very successful man with a good life.

3. Jamie is Catholic, yet he frequently celebrates pagan rituals. Why do you think he does this?
Backcountry people tend to be more superstitious and the Highlands are full of superstitions. It surrounded Jamie all his life, and it had to have made an impression.

4. What did you think of the fiery cross?
Kind of over the top. A lot of the people there had probably never seen it and didn't know the significance. Apparently, Jamie saw it when he was quite young and it made an impression on him. He does have a flair for the dramatic, and he did set the scene with food, drink and the songs he had Roger sing.

5. As Jamie says, he isn't chief and the settlers on Fraser's Ridge aren't his people. Do you think they will follow him? Why or why not?
They'll follow him. Jamie is a natural leader and his tenants are from Ardsmuir, where he was the leader, even if they didn't call him chief.
 
#3 ·
I have not finished reading this section so I'm avoiding what other(s) are writing. Hopefully I'll get done soon and can join the full discussion. Here are some of my answers to the questions.

150 pages of rain, mud, blood, torn and muddy clothing and diaper changing. But there were some nuggets contained in all that muck and mire.
I have not read the whole thing yet and I keep thinking this is one very long day. No wonder Claire got cranky.

Part One
In Medias Res
Chapters 1-17

1. Why do you think Claire felt Frank's presence?

Frank wants see Bree get married. Hey, if Jamie can visit Claire in her dreams, why not Frank.

2. Do you think the fact that Roger is a Protestant will have any bearing on future plots?
It's being made into a really big deal. I figure it will have something to do with the weddings (with the whole priest thing) or the land grant.

3. Do you think anyone will come forward with information about the Hillsborough Riots?
Somebody should, then everybody else can beat them up. ;D
In a group that large, somebody is bound to talk.

4. What do you think will be the result of England recalling all the regiments?
Violence will increase and without the constraints of the British regiments, the people advocating action against the British will be able to act more freely.

5. Why was Jamie trying very hard to avoid Archie Hayes?
He didn't want to hear what he had to say (it can't be good) and he didn't want to tell him about his father

6. What did you think of the incident with the thief-taker, Boble?
Any foreseeable consequences?

Another Stephen Bonnet? Jamie must really stop saving strangers.

7. What did you think of Mr. Maclennon's story?
So sad. There will be repercussions for the person or people who are collecting the taxes. Maybe not directly in response to what happened to Mr MacLennon but for all the abuses. But it will take time.

8. Do you think Bree has another reason, besides fear of childbirth, for not wanting more children?
She would be stuck longer in the past.

9. When Duncan disclosed that he was also a protestant why was that a problem for his marriage?
Catholics and Protestants were not known to marry during that time.
Do you think he should have told Jocasta?
Yes. Whether it affects the decision to marry or not, religion is a big deal in this time and to these people. I find it hard to believe Jocasta doesn't know about it already. She seems to know everything.

10. Why did Roger want Bree to have his ring?
It is a symbol of their family separate from Jamie's family. I don't think he minds if he is part of Claire's family but he can't be too fond of Jamie.

11. Mr. Goodwin recounts his story of Hillsborough; did it make you think there were two sides to this story?
Yes, as there always is.

12. What did you think of the custom of weaving the shrouds the day after the wedding?
Morbid much?
Does this make Bree's fears seem more realistic?
They were already pretty realistic. Maclennon's story did a better job of bringing it home than the shroud thing. It did help me understand why Maclennon's wife had a shroud though.

13. What do you think Bree made of the revelations of Frank's letter?
Confusion. I think DG added this because Frank had been written as such an ass and because it would make Jamie's adventures more perilous.

14. Do you think Frank's intent was to save Claire from making a choice to leave him and Bree?
Partially and partially to keep his family

15. What did you think of Tryon's letter to Jamie?
Jerk. Jamie can't do anything if he wants to help out the others and keep his home. At least the real fighting is a few years off.

16. Do you think it helped Jamie to know he saved Archie Hayes' life at Culloden?
Yes. He did some good there instead of just killing. Even if he doesn't want to remember, he at least knows that.

17. What was your first impression of the Bugs?
Save me from Mrs Bug!

18. The Bugs brought news of Hamish. Do you think Jamie will try to find him?
I hope so. It always bothered me that Hamish was forgotten. Now Jocasta has someone else to leave her lands to so she can threaten to disinherit everybody and go ahead and die if she wants to.

19. Do you think Jamie is looking for Bonnet to kill him, or is it as he tells Claire; to keep an eye on him?
After what he did not Roger, I hope Jamie is over the whole killing for revenge thing. I think he wants to know where Bonnet is and will kill him if he threatens Jamie's family.

20. What do you think of Jocasta's new plan to leave her estate to Jemmy? Does she have any reason to believe that Roger would harm Jemmy to gain possession of River Run.
She seems to think so but we all know that will never happen. Roger is a good guy. He needs to start getting some respect and kindness from these people. Of course, given his attraction to Bree, I have to question his sanity and/or intelligence at least a little.

21. What did you think of the arrest of the priest?
What's with DG and the priests? They do not fair well in her books. The crazy priest in the Caribbean, the burnt to a crisp priest and now this one…
Interesting way to prevent the wedding (Jocasta and Duncan)
Why do you think someone wanted to stop Duncan and Jocasta being married?
I'll have to keep reading to find out what the real motive is.

That's as far as I got. Gertie, are you reading your paper copies of these books? When I read on the Kindle, I think in terms of locations and percentages rather than pages, so I have no idea how much longer this sections is. Of course I could figure it out from the chapters if I had any interest in doing so, but I don't.
 
#4 ·
imallbs said:
I have not finished reading this section so I'm avoiding what other(s) are writing. Hopefully I'll get done soon and can join the full discussion. Here are some of my answers to the questions.
Read at your own pace. So far, you and I are the only two who have answered.

150 pages of rain, mud, blood, torn and muddy clothing and diaper changing. But there were some nuggets contained in all that muck and mire.
I have not read the whole thing yet and I keep thinking this is one very long day. No wonder Claire got cranky.
Yeah, I got pretty cranky myself.

21. What did you think of the arrest of the priest?
What's with DG and the priests? They do not fair well in her books. The crazy priest in the Caribbean, the burnt to a crisp priest and now this one…
Never thought of it that way, but you're right. Thanks for pointing that out.

That's as far as I got. Gertie, are you reading your paper copies of these books? When I read on the Kindle, I think in terms of locations and percentages rather than pages, so I have no idea how much longer this sections is. Of course I could figure it out from the chapters if I had any interest in doing so, but I don't.
No, I'm reading them on my K. I couldn't stand to pick up those cement blocks and read through them. But I do have the HC's sitting beside me. After I read, I flip through the pages and refresh my memory as to the points I want to bring up. It's easier to skim paper than it is to skim e-ink. :D
 
#5 ·
Hi. Just checking in. I have gotten behind, but I am trying to finish up the last of my class. I should be able to get back the first of next week. Then I will have to play catch up. Just wanted to let you know I had not dropped off the face of the earth.
 
#6 ·
tlshaw *Padded Cell 511* said:
Hi. Just checking in. I have gotten behind, but I am trying to finish up the last of my class. I should be able to get back the first of next week. Then I will have to play catch up. Just wanted to let you know I had not dropped off the face of the earth.
Good to see you back, Teresa. I should have realized you were in class. I know we can always count on you for some good discussion.

Lots of points to bring up from last weeks reading, but this week's reading hasn't yielded too many nuggets. It should be easy for you to catch up.
 
#7 ·
Gertie Kindle 'Turn to Page 390' said:
Read at your own pace. So far, you and I are the only two who have answered.
No, I'm reading them on my K. I couldn't stand to pick up those cement blocks and read through them. But I do have the HC's sitting beside me. After I read, I flip through the pages and refresh my memory as to the points I want to bring up. It's easier to skim paper than it is to skim e-ink. :D
I've bought a few Kindle copies of books I have in HC too. I cannot stand the thought of picking up one of those huge tomes either. With practice, it has been getting easier to skim the K books. I use search a lot!. Most of my original practicing was done on the Outlander books. I had to skim through them for reminders when answering the questions. :D

Still reading, almost through with last weeks reading. Not really but closer than I was.
 
#8 ·
imallbs said:
I've bought a few Kindle copies of books I have in HC too. I cannot stand the thought of picking up one of those huge tomes either. With practice, it has been getting easier to skim the K books. I use search a lot!. Most of my original practicing was done on the Outlander books. I had to skim through them for reminders when answering the questions. :D
Since I have the rest of the series in HC, I was going to buy both versions when the new one comes out. Then I opened TFC and found that my HC, which has only been read once, is falling apart. So, I'll stick with the e-book for Echo.

I have three authors I have in HC, which I will buy the K version as they come out; Gabaldon, Rowling and Howatch.

Still reading, almost through with last weeks reading. Not really but closer than I was.
I think I heaped too much on for the first week. Don't worry about keeping up. There's not much in the current week to discuss, so you'll get there. :D
 
#9 ·
I'm a little late, but I am just finding out how to post. I also find using the search feature very helpful in refreshing my memory.

1. Why do you think Claire felt Frank's presence?
She knew how important Bree's wedding would be to him and she couldn't help but think of him.

2. Do you think the fact that Roger is a Protestant will have any bearing on future plots?
Maybe… if the question of Jamie's Catholicism becomes a problem, that may be of some help.

3. Do you think anyone will come forward with information about the Hillsborough Riots?
I'm not sure.

4. What do you think will be the result of England recalling all the regiments?
It leaves their position vulnerable; I would think it affected the ultimate outcome of the revolution

5. Why was Jamie trying very hard to avoid Archie Hayes?
I agree that he didn't want to tell him the circumstances of his death.

6. What did you think of the incident with the thief-taker, Boble? Any foreseeable consequences?
Manfred was in Hillsborough during the riots, we don't know whether he was involved or just an innocent bystander, but this might not be the end of this story.

7. What did you think of Mr. Maclennon's story?
If his story is as he told them, and he then went to Hillsborough, he could very well have been involved in the riots, after all he was distraught

8. Do you think Bree has another reason, besides fear of childbirth, for not wanting more children?
I think she's planning to go back to the future when Jemmy is a bit older, if she has another child she may never be able to go back.

9. When Duncan disclosed that he was also a protestant why was that a problem for his marriage? Do you think he should have told Jocasta?
Apparently mixed marriages were frowned upon, but I think he should have been up front with Jocasta, regardless of the consequences.

10. Why did Roger want Bree to have his ring?
Why would he want Bree to wear Jamie's ring as a symbol of their marriage? Jamie nearly killed him, and obviously doesn't really respect him.

11. Mr. Goodwin recounts his story of Hillsborough; did it make you think there were two sides to this story?
There always are.

12. What did you think of the custom of weaving the shrouds the day after the wedding? Does this make Bree's fears seem more realistic?
With all the women who died in childbirth, I guess it makes sense, but a bit morbid.

13. What do you think Bree made of the revelations of Frank's letter?
I think that she doesn't know where Jamie dies and that newspaper article becomes a bit scarier.

14. Do you think Frank's intent was to save Claire from making a choice to leave him and Bree?
He did this when he knew he was dying. At that point he could let her go, but I don't think he felt that Bree would go also. Although he did teach her to ride a horse and to shoot.

15. What did you think of Tryon's letter to Jamie?
He holds a certain amount of leverage with Jamie because of him being Catholic. Jamie kinda has to go along with the request.

16. Do you think it helped Jamie to know he saved Archie Hayes' life at Culloden?
It had to be a bitter sweet knowledge; glad to know he saved him, but only to hang as a thief.

17. What was your first impression of the Bugs?
More people depending on Jamie & Claire. He can't say no. But then I guess they are a big help to Claire and Jamie.

18. The Bugs brought news of Hamish. Do you think Jamie will try to find him?
I'm sure he will sooner or later.

19. Do you think Jamie is looking for Bonnet to kill him, or is it as he
tells Claire; to keep an eye on him?
I think he wants to kill him. He told Bree that it shouldn't be by her hand, but he will avenge his and her honor.

20. What do you think of Jocasta's new plan to leave her estate to Jemmy? Does dhe have any reason to believe that Roger would harm Jemmy to gain possession of River Run.
She wants the estate to stay in the blood line. She's very much aware that princes would murder their own fathers for the crown. She couldn't know what kind of man Roger was.

21. What did you think of the arrest of the priest? Why do you think someone wanted to stop Duncan and Jocasta being married?
Someone went to great lengths to prevent the marriage. I believe the inheritance of her estate was behind it.

22. Why do you think Jamie finally acknowledged Roger as "son of my house?"
He accepts him as family because Roger will fight by his side and be loyal to him.

23. Why do you think Bree cannot allow herself to have an orgasm with Roger?
Although I think she loves him, I don't think she's quite ready to surrender herself to him completely. Also, being raped might have left her somewhat frigid.

Part Two
The Chieftan's Call
Chps 18-25

1. What did you think of Roger's shooting lesson?
It wasn't fair, he comes from a time that a man's value was not measured by his ability to shoot or hunt.

2. Why do you think Roger won't let Claire tell Bree about his eye problems.
He feels inadequate enough, he probably doesn't want her to see one more flaw.

3. Jamie is Catholic, yet he frequently celebrates pagan rituals. Why do you think he does this?
Jamie has strong roots in Catholicism, but there don't seem many opportunities to partake in the church's rituals. Actually I do know people of Haitian background, who are sincere Catholics, but still believe in some of their pagan ideas.

4. What did you think of the fiery cross?
A bit scary. Too reminiscent of the Klu Klux Klan. Actually, I think I read on the internet that the burning of the cross originated with the fiery cross of the Scots, although I don't know if they were bigoted people. Certainly Claire wasn't, but would Jamie be different if he hadn't fallen in love with Claire?

5. As Jamie says, he isn't chief and the settlers on Fraser's Ridge aren't his people. Do you think they will follow him? Why or why not?
They will follow him, definitely. Jamie is a born leader and was raised to be in that role. They feel great loyalty to him, for his support of them at Ardsmuir, and for having the opportunity to start a new life with his help.
 
#11 ·
I always tend to romanticise or perhaps think how cool it would be to "live then", Diane did a very nice job of describing the diapers, the damp and wet things not drying, monthlies (yuck), cooking, etc., etc., etc.  I never did go camping so have no idea of what it is really like.  I had a friend who always told me she went camping, Holiday Inn style.

I guess reading this again for the 3rd or 4th time, or maybe only 2nd, I am picking up on a lot of things that I probably did not catch before.

Welcome millie - this book Klub makes things so much easier to understand.
 
#12 ·
Anju No. 469 said:
I always tend to romanticise or perhaps think how cool it would be to "live then", Diane did a very nice job of describing the diapers, the damp and wet things not drying, monthlies (yuck), cooking, etc., etc., etc. I never did go camping so have no idea of what it is really like. I had a friend who always told me she went camping, Holiday Inn style.
Wouldn't catch me camping on a bet. :D Since Claire kind of "invented" safety pins, I wonder how they did fasten the diapers back then.

I guess reading this again for the 3rd or 4th time, or maybe only 2nd, I am picking up on a lot of things that I probably did not catch before.
Me, too. I'm definitely enjoying the series more.
 
#14 ·
Wow, that was a lot of book!

22. Why do you think Jamie finally acknowledged Roger as "son of my house?"
He has come to respect Roger, a little; he is trying to make up for all the wrong he did him. A more cynical response might be "if you can't fight 'em, join 'em.

23. Why do you think Bree cannot allow herself to have an orgasm with Roger?
Bad experiences, and she isn't able to give up control.

Part Two
The Chieftan's Call
Chps 18-25

1. What did you think of Roger's shooting lesson?
Roger and Bree's relationship is getting some belated development. I still don't get them as a devoted couple. This did show who wears the pants in the family (That would be Bree, Roger gets to wear a kilt)

2. Why do you think Roger won't let Claire tell Bree about his eye problems.
I think he knows she doesn't think much of his ability to survive without her and this would help confirm it. (note to self, must stop bashing Bree)

3. Jamie is Catholic, yet he frequently celebrates pagan rituals. Why do you think he does this?
They are part of his past and he knows the power of rituals. They also make him feel better and prepare him for what is coming. We all have our little rituals that help us feel better even if we don't see them as such.

4. What did you think of the fiery cross?
My 1st thought was the KKK and I took an instant dislike to it. I'm glad it was explained. It holds significance for many people on the Ridge and is important in establishing Jamie as their leader without him trying to declare himself so. About the only things I know about the KKK are that it was founded after the civil War and did it's work through intimidation and terror. I wonder how much of Roger's speculation about the origin of the burning cross comes from research and how much comes from speculation on the author's part.

5. As Jamie says, he isn't chief and the settlers on Fraser's Ridge aren't his people. Do you think they will follow him? Why or why not?
Most will follow Jamie. He has an innate ability to lead people. Also, many of the people on Fraser's Ridge are from Ardsmur, they are used to following him.

The thing I liked best about the gathering was that Jamie treated Roger, not just with kindness or tolerance but with respect for who he is and for his strengths. I have not forgotten what he did to Roger and I don't think Roger has either but he is willing to lay that aside and give Jamie a chance.

Bree's musings about why Frank taught her to fish, ride and shoot were interesting. He had searched for Jamie so there was a good chance he came across the article about the house burning down. But is Claire hadn't gone back yet, how could there be an article? And if there was something about Bree, wouldn't she have had to already gone back? Maybe he just wanted her to be prepared if she did go back. He was close to her and would have known there was a possibility she would go. If I keep this up my head is going to start hurting.
 
#15 ·
Gertie Kindle 'Turn to Page 390' said:
I have three authors I have in HC, which I will buy the K version as they come out; Gabaldon, Rowling and Howatch.
I know what you mean. How can you resist having the HC sitting on your shelf? There are certain authors or series that I will always buy the HC for. Anne McCaffrey's Pern series (even the new ones written by Todd McCaffrey), Jean Auel's Earth's Children series and anything by Caleb Carr. If they are available for Kindle I'll buy those as soon as they come out so I can read them on the K but I will want the HC (first edition) for my HC collections.

4. What did you think of the fiery cross?
A bit scary. Too reminiscent of the Klu Klux Klan. Actually, I think I read on the internet that the burning of the cross originated with the fiery cross of the Scots, although I don't know if they were bigoted people. Certainly Claire wasn't, but would Jamie be different if he hadn't fallen in love with Claire?
I don't think Jamie would have been a bigot, he didn't show signs of that in Outlander. But I do think he and Claire changed each other in other ways.

Because I didn't know much about how the KKK started using the cross, I decided to Google it. All the sites I found were KKK sights and I couldn't stand to stay on them for very long. What the sites all agreed on was that they did co-opt the fiery cross from the Scots as a symbol of freedom. Their idea of freedom however is probably not an appropriate discussion in this forum (or anywhere else on earth. Yeah I said it, shoot me if you must.)

12. What did you think of the custom of weaving the shrouds the day after the wedding? Does this make Bree's fears seem more realistic?
With all the women who died in childbirth, I guess it makes sense, but a bit morbid.
So does that mean I have to make my own shroud? I say let the mourners make one for me! If I didn't bother to make one what are they going to do, kill me? I know, they will say bad things about how lazy I am and those that know me will go "well yeah that was part of her charm"

10. Why did Roger want Bree to have his ring?
Why would he want Bree to wear Jamie's ring as a symbol of their marriage? Jamie nearly killed him, and obviously doesn't really respect him.
No kidding. And how many people who get along with their parents and in-laws want their spouse to wear their father's ring?

Anju No. 469 said:
I always tend to romanticise or perhaps think how cool it would be to "live then", Diane did a very nice job of describing the diapers, the damp and wet things not drying, monthlies (yuck), cooking, etc., etc., etc. I never did go camping so have no idea of what it is really like. I had a friend who always told me she went camping, Holiday Inn style.
I have camped a lot and do enjoy it but I always know that at the end of a week or two, I get my hot and cold running water and flushable toilet back. I have never wanted to "live then" because chances are if I did I probably would have "died then" very young (how's that for morbid). The only thing I say to friends who say they would have liked to live "in a simpler time" is - there were still problems and they didn't have air conditioning.
 
#16 ·
imallbs said:
Wow, that was a lot of book!
Yeah, and I haven't even finished this week's reading myself. I'll post the discussion questions as soon as I can and everyone read and answer at their own pace.

2. Why do you think Roger won't let Claire tell Bree about his eye problems.
I think he knows she doesn't think much of his ability to survive without her and this would help confirm it. (note to self, must stop bashing Bree)
Okay, if you want to be nice, but I can't help myself. I don't feel like she gave herself to Roger or had any real respect or understanding of him even before the rape.

The thing I liked best about the gathering was that Jamie treated Roger, not just with kindness or tolerance but with respect for who he is and for his strengths. I have not forgotten what he did to Roger and I don't think Roger has either but he is willing to lay that aside and give Jamie a chance.
By making Roger his captain, Jamie is also giving Roger a chance. Not too sure if he really has faith in Roger, but he knows he has to give Roger the chance to prove himself. Jamie has a good understanding of what makes people tick.

Bree's musings about why Frank taught her to fish, ride and shoot were interesting. He had searched for Jamie so there was a good chance he came across the article about the house burning down. But is Claire hadn't gone back yet, how could there be an article? And if there was something about Bree, wouldn't she have had to already gone back? Maybe he just wanted her to be prepared if she did go back. He was close to her and would have known there was a possibility she would go. If I keep this up my head is going to start hurting.
I stopped trying to understand time travel a long time ago. Different books on time travel put forth different theories, all of which seem plausible.

imallbs said:
I don't think Jamie would have been a bigot, he didn't show signs of that in Outlander.
No, I don't think he would even without Claire. He knows what it is to be controlled by someone else and he has that same caregiving nature that Claire has.

I have camped a lot and do enjoy it but I always know that at the end of a week or two, I get my hot and cold running water and flushable toilet back. I have never wanted to "live then" because chances are if I did I probably would have "died then" very young (how's that for morbid). The only thing I say to friends who say they would have liked to live "in a simpler time" is - there were still problems and they didn't have air conditioning.
Agreed. There is no such thing as a simpler time.
 
#17 ·
Hi Everyone; finished my last class, so now I am playing catch up. I won't try to answer all the questions, just some thoughts.

All the rain was depressing, but, living in NC, it is realistic. I enjoyed reading about the Gathering, though. I keep wondering who is trying to figure out who is trying to stop Jocasta from getting married. I am sure it is a man who wants to get his hands on River Run.

Roger and Bree, quite a pair. I know we all think Bree is a spoiled brat, but then I wonder whether I would have been more like Bree or Claire if I went back in time 200 years. Bree was very much a woman of the 1960's who thought she should be in control of her own life. But then, look what happens to her. She goes back to find her mother, thinking Roger will be in the future for her to go back to and then he follows her, so as far as she knows, the choice whether to go or stay has been taken away. Then, she is raped by Stephen Bonnet, and feels like she should have been able to keep that from happening, and feels helpless and ashamed. The final blow is she is pregnant, by either Roger or Stephen, so the choice about when or if to have a child is taken away. Not to mention the reality of being a modern woman in a man's world of the past, where women had not rights or possessions of their own.

Ok, off my soapbox now. Anyway, I still think she has a lot to learn about being a wife and being Roger's partner in marriage. She is definitely better prepared for roughing it, but she needs to learn how to teach Roger without making him feel inferior. Men did and still do have fragile egos.
 
#18 ·
tlshaw *Padded Cell 511* said:
Hi Everyone; finished my last class, so now I am playing catch up. I won't try to answer all the questions, just some thoughts.
Are you finished now, or just for the semester?

All the rain was depressing, but, living in NC, it is realistic. I enjoyed reading about the Gathering, though. I keep wondering who is trying to figure out who is trying to stop Jocasta from getting married. I am sure it is a man who wants to get his hands on River Run.
Okay, it's normal for NC, but it seems to me that Roger, Jamie and Duncan shouldn't have gotten dressed up for the weddings so early in the day. Did they actually think they could keep clean for several hours in all that mud? And Roger shaving while wearing his shirt? Not a good idea.

The only one we know of for sure (I think) is Lt. Wolfe.

Roger and Bree, quite a pair. I know we all think Bree is a spoiled brat, but then I wonder whether I would have been more like Bree or Claire if I went back in time 200 years. Bree was very much a woman of the 1960's who thought she should be in control of her own life. But then, look what happens to her. She goes back to find her mother, thinking Roger will be in the future for her to go back to and then he follows her, so as far as she knows, the choice whether to go or stay has been taken away. Then, she is raped by Stephen Bonnet, and feels like she should have been able to keep that from happening, and feels helpless and ashamed. The final blow is she is pregnant, by either Roger or Stephen, so the choice about when or if to have a child is taken away. Not to mention the reality of being a modern woman in a man's world of the past, where women had not rights or possessions of their own.
Yes, I do realize that. However, Bree never seemed to take the time to understand Roger or find out what he wanted even before she went back through the stones. She was young, had lost her father, and been left by her mother, so I can understand her being self-centered. But she could have gone the other way and reached out to Roger instead.

Ok, off my soapbox now. Anyway, I still think she has a lot to learn about being a wife and being Roger's partner in marriage. She is definitely better prepared for roughing it, but she needs to learn how to teach Roger without making him feel inferior. Men did and still do have fragile egos.
So true.
 
#19 ·
Gertie Kindle 'Turn to Page 390' said:
Are you finished now, or just for the semester?
I am all finished. Now I just have to wait for the final grade on my last class and official notification that I have earned my MLIS

Okay, it's normal for NC, but it seems to me that Roger, Jamie and Duncan shouldn't have gotten dressed up for the weddings so early in the day. Did they actually think they could keep clean for several hours in all that mud? And Roger shaving while wearing his shirt? Not a good idea.
I wondered the same thing. I would have dressed more casually and changed later.

Yes, I do realize that. However, Bree never seemed to take the time to understand Roger or find out what he wanted even before she went back through the stones. She was young, had lost her father, and been left by her mother, so I can understand her being self-centered. But she could have gone the other way and reached out to Roger instead.
I agree. I guess Bree never learned to consider other people. At least with Jemmy, she seems to be a very good mother.
 
#20 ·
tlshaw *Padded Cell 511* said:
I am all finished. Now I just have to wait for the final grade on my last class and official notification that I have earned my MLIS


I wondered the same thing. I would have dressed more casually and changed later.
I agree. I guess Bree never learned to consider other people. At least with Jemmy, she seems to be a very good mother.
Yes, she is, especially considering who she thinks is his father.
 
#22 ·
Hi Everyone; finished my last class, so now I am playing catch up. I won't try to answer all the questions, just some thoughts.

All the rain was depressing, but, living in NC, it is realistic. I enjoyed reading about the Gathering, though. I keep wondering who is trying to figure out who is trying to stop Jocasta from getting married. I am sure it is a man who wants to get his hands on River Run.
I was wondering about that too. I also wondered if it had anything to do with the rumors of gold.
Roger and Bree, quite a pair. I know we all think Bree is a spoiled brat, but then I wonder whether I would have been more like Bree or Claire if I went back in time 200 years. Bree was very much a woman of the 1960's who thought she should be in control of her own life. But then, look what happens to her. She goes back to find her mother, thinking Roger will be in the future for her to go back to and then he follows her, so as far as she knows, the choice whether to go or stay has been taken away. Then, she is raped by Stephen Bonnet, and feels like she should have been able to keep that from happening, and feels helpless and ashamed. The final blow is she is pregnant, by either Roger or Stephen, so the choice about when or if to have a child is taken away. Not to mention the reality of being a modern woman in a man's world of the past, where women had not rights or possessions of their own.
I am trying to see Bree in a more positive light but it is hard. She is 23 years old and often acts like she is 15. Bree is written more like a woman of the 1980's than the 1960's. The mid to late 60's is when things started to change for women. Of course Claire was more independent than most women of the 1940's too. So Bree had the role model of an independent, working mother and a father who supported that. She also had the role model of a bad marriage which probably makes it difficult for her to trust her own marriage. Even giving her that, Bree is responsible for her predicament but seems to want to make Roger pay for it. She choose not to tell Roger what she was doing. If she had been honest with him, he would not have been able to stop her and he may have stayed so she could get back. She could have chosen to go back when she was pregnant leaving it to her parents to find Roger and send him back. Obviously there are ways of finding out what happened to people so she would have been able to find out if he had died. My opinion - she stayed because she wanted to but can't admit it. Here she has family. Now that she has found out what it is like to have family she doesn't want to give it up. If she had gone back, she would have been alone. Bree seems to have some of the worst qualities of Claire, Jamie and Frank.
Ok, off my soapbox now. Anyway, I still think she has a lot to learn about being a wife and being Roger's partner in marriage. She is definitely better prepared for roughing it, but she needs to learn how to teach Roger without making him feel inferior. Men did and still do have fragile egos.
So true
 
#23 ·
'Pretty morbid, but I think the Scots are morbid in general'

Hallo Margaret,
I was trundling through kindleboards this morning and coming across your photo with ice cream cone hat was attracted and followed you up, including reading your recent sample on your blog. It's sound work and I wish you every success. :)
I write under a pen name. I am actually Highland Scots with a real Gaelic name and surname. Unpronounecable to most, I spell it almost every day. My ancestor headed up the Clan Chattan at Culloden and our clan has an amazing heartbreaking true story connected to his decision to go ahead and fight, and to his terrible death.
 When my younger daughter was 18 we visited the battle site. I recall then suggesting she write a novel about him. But we never thought it would be published, so the idea never came to fruition. (She is now 30 and happily busy with baby twins!).
 So when Gabaldon came on the scene I skimmed through her first book and frankly was saddened at the lack of authenticity. This is not surprising since as I understand she had never even been to Scotland when she wrote that first book.
 Romance authors are always being warned to write with correct detail and even in the first few paragraphs there were so many errors that it made me laugh.
However I have ceased laughing as she has become some sort of leader in what readers think Scotland must have been like. So we write what is the accepted idea of a thing rather than the reality.
 I was driving through the park near my home last Summer and wondered why they were pitching marquees beside the palace. It turned out Diana had come over and was met by Prince Charles and Camilla. I'm glad she was given such a warm welcome. But still saddened that this erroneous idea Scotland is being perpetrated and approved.
 One of my ancestors became an Indian chief! Can you imagine that.
 I wonder if I were to write something authentic whether it would be negatively compared against the Gabaldon series, because readers believe in the myth created. That is the American idea now formed by Gabaldon.
 Which brings me to my final point which is - Scots are not morbid. We are something no-one could understand unless they have come here and stood at the Sound of Sleat, or gazed on the Cairngorms when they are covered in snow, or visited Craigievar Castle, or looked on the fairy flag at Dunvegan.
 Since you are a reader, if you want a little of the understanding of the Scots read Barrie's Peter Pan, read George MacDonald's 'Princess and Curdie', and 'At the Back of the North Wind.' Lucy Maud Montgomery, whose ancestry was MacNeil of Barra captures Scottishness in her 'Emily of New Moon' and the sequels.
 I'm going to send you a PM to let you know this is here, as this post has not been added to for a while.

 I wish you all the very best.
 Kate  :)
 
#24 ·
Thank you for that wonderful post, Kate.

Yes, we know DG erred when she described Scotland in 1945. When Outlander was being published in the UK as Cross Stitch, they pointed out that the conditions described were more like 1946. The date was changed for Cross Stitch which messed up the timeline for Dragonfly in Amber. Every time there's a new reader, we have to explain that. I don't understand why the US publisher couldn't make that same correction.

You'd be surprised how many people don't like Outlander. I was. For me, Outlander was about the power and the passion, not the history. The Rising of '45 was a great background, but I always do my own research after reading something like this.

What aggravates me is all of the follow-up Highlander books. Everybody jumped on the bandwagon and we have all these huge, fiery Scots screaming down the mountains.

Probably with a well-written forward, not mentioning Outlander, you can let the readers know that this is the true story of your ancestor and Culloden. I think you should write it. You would probably garner more interest with a fictional story, but I think a non-fiction book might do well since it is your family's history.

Let me know what you decide to do. I hope you do write it.

 
#25 ·
Hi Margaret,

This is a really helpful response as otherwise we have no way of knowing what is going on across 'the pond.'

I am still glad, on balance that DG wrote the series, as those whose interest is kindled (pardon the pun) will follow up with more factual reading.

I laughed at your 'huge, fiery Scots' !! We're pretty damped down these days.

My writing is in another direction at present, but you are right - a book should be written. Possibly in the Summer - mmmh.

Kate.
 
#26 ·
Kate Hamilton said:
Hi Margaret,

This is a really helpful response as otherwise we have no way of knowing what is going on across 'the pond.'

I am still glad, on balance that DG wrote the series, as those whose interest is kindled (pardon the pun) will follow up with more factual reading.

I laughed at your 'huge, fiery Scots' !! We're pretty damped down these days.

My writing is in another direction at present, but you are right - a book should be written. Possibly in the Summer - mmmh.

Kate.
Keep me posted. I'd like to read it.
 
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