Author Topic: Week 8. Discuss ch 72 (Jaime) to the end!  (Read 1444 times)  

Offline jason10mm

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Week 8. Discuss ch 72 (Jaime) to the end!
« on: June 23, 2012, 03:41:54 PM »
ASOS week 8. Discuss ch72 (Jamie) to the end!

1.   Jaime learns that Robert, in a drunken state, declared that Bran ought to be put out of his misery. He said this in front of Joffrey. Was Joffrey the instigator of the assassination attempt?

2.   Jaime sees his page in the White Book. Are his gifts to Brienne and his treatment of Cersei an indication of a real desire to be a new man?

3.   Ser Kevan has issued a pardon to the Westerlings (loc18226). Does this mean Jeyne is NOT pregnant and is therefore not a threat? Does this mean they WERE in cahoots with the Lannisters?

4.   Stannis and Melisandre are rumored to have sacrificed a man to come to Eastwatch (location 19070). Was this Davos in punishment for smuggling away Edric Storm?

5.   Did Mance have the real Horn of Joramun? Was his expedition into the mountains a success?

6.   Arya the BAD-A$$! She is definitely the only character who is getting to become her own childhood fantasy! Is she making the right decision to abandon Westeros to become a Faceless Man?

7.   What will become of Sandor, assuming he lives? Will he take up service with some Lord?

8.   Should Jon have accepted Stannis offer to become Lord of Winterfell? Would this appointment, along with the marriage to Val, have accomplished anything?

9.   Tyrion, the BAD-A$$! Was Jaimes revelation about Tysha (so long in the past and undoubtedly the lie Jaime thought about a few weeks back) justification for his lie to Jaime and the killing of Tywin?

10.   How long as Shae been with Tywin? Since the trial, or before?

11.   What has Maester Aemon discovered about the sword Stanis bears?

12.   Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Nights Watch! Can he handle this responsibility?

Offline VondaZ

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Re: Week 8. Discuss ch 72 (Jaime) to the end!
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2012, 05:45:40 PM »
1.   Jaime learns that Robert, in a drunken state, declared that Bran ought to be put out of his misery. He said this in front of Joffrey. Was Joffrey the instigator of the assassination attempt?

I am thinking yes.

2.   Jaime sees his page in the White Book. Are his gifts to Brienne and his treatment of Cersei an indication of a real desire to be a new man?

I do believe that Jaime wants to reinvent himself. He can no longer go on being the old Jaime so he has to figure out something.

3.   Ser Kevan has issued a pardon to the Westerlings (loc18226). Does this mean Jeyne is NOT pregnant and is therefore not a threat? Does this mean they WERE in cahoots with the Lannisters?

I think this means that they were conspiring with the Lannisters. The pardon was offered too easily.

4.   Stannis and Melisandre are rumored to have sacrificed a man to come to Eastwatch (location 19070). Was this Davos in punishment for smuggling away Edric Storm?

I don't think so. In the following chapter, Stannis talks about how he might not have come except for his Hand (well, that could have a double meaning, I guess) - but he goes on to talk about Davos in the present tense "he is . . . ." I think Davos is still alive - or if he is dead, Stannis doesn't know it.

5.   Did Mance have the real Horn of Joramun? Was his expedition into the mountains a success?

I don't know. I was assuming the horn was real, but I don't know how he got it. Why didn't he blow it?

6.   Arya the BAD-A$$! She is definitely the only character who is getting to become her own childhood fantasy! Is she making the right decision to abandon Westeros to become a Faceless Man?

Is she going to become a Faceless man? I am not sure what all that entails so I don't know if it is a good thing or not. But at least she is making her own decisions and is in her own power at the moment.

7.   What will become of Sandor, assuming he lives? Will he take up service with some Lord?

I am not sure who would want him. Maybe Stannis? Of course, he is afraid of the fire, so I guess that wouldn't be a good match. I don't really know what Sandor wants for himself so I don't know where he might end up.

8.   Should Jon have accepted Stannis offer to become Lord of Winterfell? Would this appointment, along with the marriage to Val, have accomplished anything?

There is a part of me that wants to see Jon as Lord of Winterfell - legitimized, in charge of Winterfell, and a player again in the trials of Westeros. However, I couldn't help feel that he would have to give up too much in this alliance with Stannis. He would have to give up the old gods for Melisandre's god, and I think that would be a betrayal of who he is. It also puts him in too tight of an alliance with Stannis. Stannis and the Watch may have the same agenda at the moment and may do well to work together, but I don't think such an alliance can be lasting. If he is to become Lord of Westeros, it will have to come about some other way. Right now, the Watch needs him.

9.   Tyrion, the BAD-A$$! Was Jaimes revelation about Tysha (so long in the past and undoubtedly the lie Jaime thought about a few weeks back) justification for his lie to Jaime and the killing of Tywin?

I wish he wouldn't have lied to Jaime, but that was just done out of hurt. Or perhaps because Jaime didn't know him well enough to know that he wouldn't hurt Jaime's son even if he despised him. The killing of Tywin was awesome! I didn't think Tyrion had it in him but Tywin had it coming. Why Tywin would want Tyrion's whore though - I have no idea. I would have thought that he would have though her too tainted to have sex with. And who will be in power now with Tyrion on the run and Tywin dead. Will Cersei finally get power all to herself (poor Tommen if this is the case).

10.   How long as Shae been with Tywin? Since the trial, or before?

Hadn't thought that there might be more to this. I had assumed since the trial - but like I said above, that just doesn't feel realistic. I hadn't thought that Tywin might have set up that relationship from the start. It would explain why Shae didn't want to leave when her life was in danger.

11.   What has Maester Aemon discovered about the sword Stanis bears?

It is not hot, so it is not the real Lightbringer.

12.   Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Nights Watch! Can he handle this responsibility?

Better than the rest. He can use some wisdom, but at least he will still have the Maester.

Offline DYB

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Re: Week 8. Discuss ch 72 (Jaime) to the end!
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2012, 10:28:25 PM »
1.   Jaime learns that Robert, in a drunken state, declared that Bran ought to be put out of his misery. He said this in front of Joffrey. Was Joffrey the instigator of the assassination attempt?

Well, I have no doubt that Joffrey was responsible for this.  Tyrion guessed it (or concluded based on some reasoning he didn't articulate) and Jaime's recollections back it up.  He thinks it was Joffrey as well.  Unless some other truth comes out I'm going to assume this particular mystery has been solved.  Joff is at the source of this whole conflict!

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2.   Jaime sees his page in the White Book. Are his gifts to Brienne and his treatment of Cersei an indication of a real desire to be a new man?

Yes, I think so.  He can't be the old Jaime, not without his arm.  His fighting skills is how he defined himself.  Without them he needs to think of something else to do.

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3.   Ser Kevan has issued a pardon to the Westerlings (loc18226). Does this mean Jeyne is NOT pregnant and is therefore not a threat? Does this mean they WERE in cahoots with the Lannisters?

Yes, I suspected that all was not kosher with the Westerlings.  There was that uncle that Grey Wind did not like.  (Did we ever see this uncle?)  The whole family was just kind of creepily nice.  And dull.  Perhaps Martin just didn't fill them in well enough.  But I agree with Vonda that the pardon comes too easily.  Tywin is not in the habit of pardoning anyone for treason, so why were the Lannisters so quick to pardon the Westerlings?

Some Westerlings did go to the Red Wedding.  Do we know what happened to them there?  Did they survive?

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4.   Stannis and Melisandre are rumored to have sacrificed a man to come to Eastwatch (location 19070). Was this Davos in punishment for smuggling away Edric Storm?

It's odd that Davos is not with them on the Wall, but perhaps Stannis left him back at Dragonstone to, as it were, rule the "kingdom" in his absence.  Since they have ended up coming to the Wall Davos clearly succeeded in convincing Stannis to follow his advice.  Which in this case happened to overlap with Melisandre's thoughts.  She saw - and showed to Stannis - snow and war in the fire.  I don't think Davos was the man sacrificed.

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5.   Did Mance have the real Horn of Joramun? Was his expedition into the mountains a success?

I have no idea!  The Horn of Joramun would collapse the Wall, right?  And allow the Others and the wights to easily invade Westeros, right?  My theory, I think I wrote it before, is that the reason Mance assembled the wildlings and they are marching on Westeros is because the are being squeezed out by the Others (and whatever else is out there).  And they need to place to go and be safe.  So they have to get to the other side of the Wall.  Why would Mance want to destroy the Wall and unleash the Others?  Perhaps he's actually trying to protect the Horn from being used?

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6.   Arya the BAD-A$$! She is definitely the only character who is getting to become her own childhood fantasy! Is she making the right decision to abandon Westeros to become a Faceless Man?

Finally a Stark taking some action!  And not being killed!  Sheesh!  I think she definitely made the right decision.  In fact, she should have come with Jaqen when he invited her.  She's lost time, witnessed further trauma.  And is, once again, all alone.  At least she would have had someone with her before.  But here we are.  I think Arya as a Faceless Man/Assassin will be awesome.  (Unless Martin kills her.)

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7.   What will become of Sandor, assuming he lives? Will he take up service with some Lord?

My guess is yes, he will survive.  Otherwise his whole story arc would be kind of pointless.  But what can he do?  I don't know that there's any Lord who would take him into service.  Nobody loyal to the Lannisters would.  I don't think Stannis would.  The Hound doesn't have enough honor - certainly not the honor Stannis seeks.  Though Sandor is quite honorable in his own way.  If you take all the killing out of the equation.  But does he have some kind of guilty conscience over Mycah?  He tells Arya to stop saying his name.  I think the only thing Sandor can do at this point is join some church, become a priest.

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8.   Should Jon have accepted Stannis offer to become Lord of Winterfell? Would this appointment, along with the marriage to Val, have accomplished anything?

No, I don't think he should have accepted the offer.  For many reasons.  One: he swore an oath to the Night's Watch.  I can't imagine Stannis would actually encourage the breaking of an oath.  Or is Stannis selective in these things?  Two: he'd be too indebted to Stannis and Melisandre and the cost, I think, would be too high.  I don't trust them, certainly not Melisandre.  Three: it would make him look bad in the sense that he's not really entitled to that land because he's a [illegitimate person].  And who is Stannis anyway?  A King without a Kingdom, he's nobody.  But we know that Robb legitimized Jon - and there are people out there who know this.  Jon doesn't need Stannis.  His own brother has already made him a Stark.  (Jon just doesn't know it yet.)  That is a much more legitimate path than anything Stannis has to offer him.

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9.   Tyrion, the BAD-A$$! Was Jaimes revelation about Tysha (so long in the past and undoubtedly the lie Jaime thought about a few weeks back) justification for his lie to Jaime and the killing of Tywin?

Well...I also wish Tyrion hadn't lied to Jaime.  Does Jaime believe him?  I guess we'll have to wait and see.  As far as killing Tywin - well, finally the Lannister body count grows.  I mean for crap's sake!  Tywin was a fascinating character.  I think it's obvious that if it was up to him this war would not have been fought.  He was angry at Joffrey for killing Ned.  But he certainly doesn't fight clean.  His part in the Red Wedding was deplorable.  And I think the gods (whichever gods) are doling out punishments.  Joffrey and Tywin for Robb and Catelyn.  And Tyrion escaping.  Can you imagine Cersei's rage?!  ;D  Now let's hope for similar fates for the Freys and the Boltons.

Now how do we feel about Varys actually arranging Tyrion's escape?  I've always liked Varys.  I hope ultimately he's a good guy; he's certainly acting like the good guy here.  But, of course, trust no one!

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10.   How long has Shae been with Tywin? Since the trial, or before?

I'm guessing...she's been in Tywin's service from the get-go.  Another whore he hired to teach Tyrion a sharp lesson.  And to keep tabs on him.  It does explain why Shae was so fearless while in King's Landing.  Foolishly so, not caring about secrecy and keeping her head down.  She acted like she was invincible and she probably was, knowing Tywin would protect her.  Can Tyrion ever trust another human being again?

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11.   What has Maester Aemon discovered about the sword Stanis bears?

I guess he discovered that Stannis' sword is not magical.  Melisandre won't like that!  I hope Maester Aemon watches his back.

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12.   Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Nights Watch! Can he handle this responsibility?

I didn't love this chapter.  A little too Hollywoody.  But I don't mind the outcome.  I'm surprised people like Marsh actually backed him.  Jon is a child!  And they know he's spent time with the wildlings.  So why do they trust him?  Or do they just know that the alternative is not an option?

Now some questions I have.

Why is Sam not allowed to tell Jon that Bran and Rickon are alive?  Surely that secret would be safe with Jon!  And it would give him some peace of mind to know not all of his brothers are dead.

Who is the mysterious guide?  It has to be an Other, right?  And possibly Benjen, right?  If both of these are true - how can an Other not be a murderous zombie?  Does it mean Others have free will?  Are there other (!) Others like him???  Or if he's not an Other, could he be the undead like Beric and Catelyn?

Speaking of Catelyn: no question about the Epilogue?!  I looooved seeing that Frey doofus get caught and then hanged.  And seeing the undead Catelyn.  Yeah!  And that little twerp Frey, the pimpled one, already hanging.  Walder Frey will be annoyed.  Too bad!  :D  I sure hope Catelyn goes on a few bloody rampages.

And Lysa/Littlefinger/Sansa.  So we know that it was Lysa Littlefinger deflowered, not Catelyn.  But he thought it was Catelyn!  Now I can't remember already if this was information he heard Lysa say or not?  Or is it just Sansa who knows and Littlefinger is still under the impression that he and Catelyn were lovers.  At least it does show one thing: Littlefinger wasn't spreading lies intentionally about it.  He actually believed that he bedded Catelyn.

And then I loved seeing Littlefinger throw Lysa out of the moon door.  She always loved that thing too much!  I hope Sansa watches and learns.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 10:43:49 PM by DYB »

Offline jason10mm

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Re: Week 8. Discuss ch 72 (Jaime) to the end!
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2012, 02:00:44 PM »
Whoops, just realized that I cut off my last 2 questions :) one was about littlefinger getting lysa to poison Jon Arryn and the other was whether or not zombie-cat has any of her personality left.

I think Shae was just a girl found by Bronn (since he brought her, otherwise thus would mean Bronn has been in tywins employ since the first battle). I think she "traded up" after Tyrion was injured. Remember, she appeared to be a handmaiden of Sansa's, IIRC. I can't see Tywin EVER taking tyrions sloppy seconds. I think Shae played the innocent so well even Tywin fell for it.

As for "Coldhands", he appears to be a wight, but one with more intelligence. Popular opinion is that he is Benjen, but I don't see how that works, unless he is a wight being posessed by a warg or something. He certainly has his own agenda that appears to run contrary to the Others.

Sam not telling Jon about Bran probably saved Jon from running off north of the wall and getting himself killed.

Offline VondaZ

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Re: Week 8. Discuss ch 72 (Jaime) to the end!
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2012, 02:28:56 PM »
one was about littlefinger getting lysa to poison Jon Arryn

I figured it was Lysa who did this! And it is not surprising to learn she was being manipulated by Littlefinger either.

and the other was whether or not zombie-cat has any of her personality left.

I don't think so - although whether it is because she is a zombie or because she has had everything taken away from her and has nothing left to be herself for, I don't know. I just knew it was significant that in the vision, she opened her eyes. I couldn't get that image out of my head. At first I thought maybe she wasn't really dead - until Arya's wolf vision. But this makes sense, I guess.

As for "Coldhands", he appears to be a wight, but one with more intelligence. Popular opinion is that he is Benjen, but I don't see how that works, unless he is a wight being posessed by a warg or something. He certainly has his own agenda that appears to run contrary to the Others.

I keep thinking he is Benjen. Or at least, I want to believe he is Benjen. I don't know who he could be otherwise. I never considered the possibility that he might be an "Other." How does one become an Other? I know how one becomes a wight, but I just thought the Others are just out there. But why Benjen would be independent and able to make decisions for himself as a wight rather than just becoming one of the Others' army of brainless wights, I haven't any idea.

Sam not telling Jon about Bran probably saved Jon from running off north of the wall and getting himself killed.

I think that no one tells anyone about Bran because the story works better if no one knows he is out there. That leaves everyone else to battle over the heir to Winterfell and the leader of the North - is it Sansa or is it Arya/fake Arya, or is Jon legitimized and the heir, etc. Once Jon knows that Bran is alive - that offer from Stannis just has no pull because Jon would never rob Winterfell from one of his brothers. The story can claim it is to keep Bran safe, but come on - Bran is over the wall. He is not safe but it is not because of who he is, just because of where he is. No one over the wall cares who he is. Except maybe Benjen.

Offline VondaZ

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Re: Week 8. Discuss ch 72 (Jaime) to the end!
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2012, 02:30:41 PM »
I have no idea!  The Horn of Joramun would collapse the Wall, right?  And allow the Others and the wights to easily invade Westeros, right?  My theory, I think I wrote it before, is that the reason Mance assembled the wildlings and they are marching on Westeros is because the are being squeezed out by the Others (and whatever else is out there).  And they need to place to go and be safe.  So they have to get to the other side of the Wall.  Why would Mance want to destroy the Wall and unleash the Others?  Perhaps he's actually trying to protect the Horn from being used?

That is right - I forgot that Mance wanted to be safe on the other side of the wall and not to destroy the wall. So he wouldn't want to use the horn unless he had no other alternative.

Offline DYB

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Re: Week 8. Discuss ch 72 (Jaime) to the end!
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2012, 07:35:56 PM »
Whoops, just realized that I cut off my last 2 questions :) one was about littlefinger getting lysa to poison Jon Arryn and the other was whether or not zombie-cat has any of her personality left.

I was very surprised to learn that Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn!  And dragged her sister and her sister's family into her own selfish drama.  Ugh!  Good riddance to her and her moonwalk!

As far as Cat the zombie ... well, it's hard to tell what's left under there.  Beric certainly had full command of his faculties.  He remembered who he was and all that.  But not everyone is the same, so who knows.  It might also depend on how long a person was dead before being brought back.  Catelyn was dead for more than a day.  Do we know how long Beric was dead before his resurrection?  And there is also, as Vonda points out, the fact that in Cat's world everything has been taken from her.  Beric wasn't really in that sort of emotional situation.  Perhaps for the new Cat whatever vengeance she brings forth will be more instinctual.  But she did remember seeing the two Freys at the Red Wedding, so she obviously has some memories.

I must say it's a small consolation prize to have Cat back in such a state!  Now if she was a zombie warrior woman - awesome!  But alas...

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I think Shae was just a girl found by Bronn (since he brought her, otherwise thus would mean Bronn has been in tywins employ since the first battle). I think she "traded up" after Tyrion was injured. Remember, she appeared to be a handmaiden of Sansa's, IIRC. I can't see Tywin EVER taking tyrions sloppy seconds. I think Shae played the innocent so well even Tywin fell for it.

It is true that Bronn is the one who found Shae.  But Tywin is taking Tyrion's sloppy seconds since Tyrion finds Shaw in Tywin's bed.  At this point Tywin knows Shaw was Tyrion's whore.  And she's still in his bed.  I think that would make more sense if Tywin has known about Shae and Tyrion for some time and has been manipulating that relationship.  Otherwise why would he take Shae into his bed?  Surely he doesn't feel any sort of pity for the plight she talked about at Tyrion's trial.

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As for "Coldhands", he appears to be a wight, but one with more intelligence. Popular opinion is that he is Benjen, but I don't see how that works, unless he is a wight being posessed by a warg or something. He certainly has his own agenda that appears to run contrary to the Others.

We don't really know enough about Wights or the Others to know what's up with them.  But Wights have just been mindless zombies so far.  Others appear to be more intelligent, or certainly appear to be in control, which would suggest some kind of intelligence.  But this "Coldhands" not only possesses powers of speech, but also thought.  Seems to be highly unusual.  Why don't you think it could be Benjen?  It could be anybody, really, so why not him?

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Sam not telling Jon about Bran probably saved Jon from running off north of the wall and getting himself killed.

I am not sure Jon would have run off in search of Bran.  Why not in search of Rickon, who is somewhere on the other side of the Wall.  Jon has been pretty steadfast in his oath to the Night's Watch.  (Except for that whole thing with Ygrette, but he was just following orders!  ;) )

Offline jason10mm

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Re: Week 8. Discuss ch 72 (Jaime) to the end!
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2012, 07:25:45 PM »
does Tywin know Shae was with Tyrion? I'll have to read it again but I was under the impression that she testified as one of Sansa's maids, and only talked about how they conspired together. Did she mention sleeping with Tyrion? I think it was a bit too convenient for GRRM to put Shae in Tywins bed, but dang if it didn't make for a good scene :)

To be fair to Lysa, she did try to warn Cat to stay in the north :) I think the decision to foster her son at Casterly Rock (or Dragonstone, I forget which version she believed) plus her "affair" with little finger drove her to poison Jon. I think she was content to hold up in the Eryie and wait it out, she clearly wanted Cat to do the same. I agree though, Lysa was less than forthcoming, but then again that would require her to admit her own guilt.

Offline DYB

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Re: Week 8. Discuss ch 72 (Jaime) to the end!
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2012, 08:46:47 PM »
Well, in her confession Shae talked about Tyrion insisting she call him "Giant of Lannister."  I'm pretty sure she mentioned sexual contact even more explicitly than that.  But correct me if I'm wrong!

I agree, a bit too convenient, but a good scene anyway, so I forgive him.  I was much more bothered by the shenanigans on the Wall, with Sam running around and plotting, and the vote taking place as it did.  It will probably look good in the TV show, but I didn't love how Martin was constructing it on the page.

Technically yes, Lysa did tell Cat to stay put.  But anybody in their right mind (!) would know that was never going to happen.  Cat - and certainly Ned - would want to help.  Only Lysa is the sort of person who would actually run away and hide.  And she did!  But lot of good it did her.  I almost wish Martin had written a chapter from her perspective and gave us her thoughts as she was falling down to the ground!  :D

Offline VondaZ

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Re: Week 8. Discuss ch 72 (Jaime) to the end!
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2012, 04:41:46 AM »
Well, in her confession Shae talked about Tyrion insisting she call him "Giant of Lannister."  I'm pretty sure she mentioned sexual contact even more explicitly than that.  But correct me if I'm wrong!

I also thought it was quite explicit - but maybe I saw what I wanted to see? I will have to read that portion again.

I agree, a bit too convenient, but a good scene anyway, so I forgive him.  I was much more bothered by the shenanigans on the Wall, with Sam running around and plotting, and the vote taking place as it did.  It will probably look good in the TV show, but I didn't love how Martin was constructing it on the page.

I did think that Jon's election was a little too easy - just plant a few carefully chosen words in two feuding veteran soldier's ears and they will give up their own aspirations to stand behind someone so young and inexperienced - but it was how I hoped it would end up so I let it pass. I guess I just want to believe there is something special about Jon that could unite the Night's Watch despite his youth.

Offline jason10mm

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Re: Week 8. Discuss ch 72 (Jaime) to the end!
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2012, 10:01:30 AM »
Yeah, just retread the trial and she clearly admits to sleeping with Tyrion. Pretty explicitly as a matter of fact. So I think it is a bit out of character for Tywin to sleep with her, UNLESS she told Tywin she wasn't sleeping with Tyrion and they told her to say she was to make Tyrion look bad.

Circles within circles :) or shae is just that sexy :)

Offline DYB

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Re: Week 8. Discuss ch 72 (Jaime) to the end!
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2012, 10:52:38 PM »
Yeah, just retread the trial and she clearly admits to sleeping with Tyrion. Pretty explicitly as a matter of fact. So I think it is a bit out of character for Tywin to sleep with her, UNLESS she told Tywin she wasn't sleeping with Tyrion and they told her to say she was to make Tyrion look bad.

Circles within circles :) or shae is just that sexy :)

Or Maybe Tywin wanted to insult Tyrion further by taking "his woman?"

Offline jason10mm

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Re: Week 8. Discuss ch 72 (Jaime) to the end!
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2012, 03:24:44 PM »
I'm not sure post trial Tyrion would have ever had an opportunity to know about Tywin and Shae. It just seems so odd that Tywin would make a big deal over Tyrions whores, apparently not have any women of his own since Johanna died, and then suddenly shack up with his despised son's girl. I'm attributing this 100% to the power of Shae :)