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[KevinH]

I like this idea, but I don't think it needs to be complicated.  I would be in favor of listing the lifetime sales milestones (probably starting at 1000) for paid sales of indie and hybrid authors.  I think other factors like prices, genres, etc. will distort the meaning behind the accomplishment. 

Selling books is hard in any genre, so I'd rather focus more on celebrating the successes rather than finding reasons to put an asterisk by someone's name (eg, the-book-was-only-99-cents, anyone-can-sell-in-that-genre, etc.).

[Michael_J_Sullivan]

I really like the idea!!

1. How would we make this a reliable (i.e. verifiable) source of info? Ask for screenshots of Amazon KDP sales data?

I'd say honor system - most people are honest about such things and the possible reputation hit if you were to lie would keep people in line if they were at all tempted.

2. How to handle factoring in sales from BN, Kobo, Smashwords, Apple, etc? Or should it be based just on Kindle sales?

I say combine them - if it's too much work for some then they can simply state these numbers or just for xxxxx.

3. Indie (self--pub) only? Indie and small-pub? Or any authors of e-books, whether they're indie, small-pub or big-pub?

As a hybrid (and I think there will be many more) I would like to see people report both their indie sales and their traditional sales. Where traditional is defined as any sale where you need to be vetted and don't control factors like cost.  So someone who has started up their own publishing company to list their books would report under indie.

4. Include freebies or only paid books in the milestone thresholds?

Only paid sales.  If people want to indicate how many they gave away free - that's fine too but there shouldn't be a mixing of apples and oranges.

5. Any other thoughts/ideas? Is this an achievable idea?

I think it's a great idea!

[MonkeyScribe]

I really like the look of Joseph's sales per day badges. I don't use them because anyone looking at my badge would get a false impression of where I'm selling at that moment. Then they would look at my current rankings and sadly shake their heads because I was so delusional. But I'm a sucker for something that looks like a real medal or plaque. I never get enough of those IRL.

I'm a hybrid author, but I still think this should count indie-only sales. No freebies, but I'd count borrows. They represent someone paying money for the right to read the book. Also, it has to be self reporting. Otherwise, it's a nightmare. Does admin really want to look through years of KDP spreadsheets? Then there are pen names, etc. If someone lies and makes themselves out to be some indie superstar, let 'em.

[Not Here]

Does admin really want to look through years of KDP spreadsheets?

I don't know. I seem to remember Ann in Arlington saying she likes to read manuals. 

But I agree, seems like a lot of trouble. I also think Amazon has something in their TOS that says you aren't allowed to give "exact" numbers. Might cause issues taking screenshots.

I'd also like to know about the pen names. I'm not ready to post my pen name on here quite yet. How would that work?

[Vivi_Anna]

The simpler the better. Breaking it all down with how many books and price and such is a waste of time I think.

But it depends on who this is for.  Do you want to use this to promo those authors to readers, or is this an info graphic for authors.  These are two very different things.

For readers, I'd go with genre and book milestone...

For authors, then all that other stuff is important.

[Betsy the Quilter]

No freebies, but I'd count borrows. They represent someone paying money for the right to read the book.

Not saying whether to count borrows or not, I have no opinion on that, but I disagree that a borrow represents someone paying money for the right to read the book.  Someone who borrows the book pays no money to do so. The fact that Amazon has it set up so they are contractually obligated to pay you for the borrow (no doubt in order to entice you to be part of the program) is distinct from that.

I've borrowed books I would never have spent money on if I had had to.  (I found some, including yours, Michael, that I enjoyed enough to buy more by the author later, but would probably have not bought the first one.)

Betsy

[MonkeyScribe]

Not saying whether to count borrows or not, I have no opinion on that, but I disagree that a borrow represents someone paying money for the right to read the book.  Someone who borrows the book pays no money to do so. The fact that Amazon has it set up so they are contractually obligated to pay you for the borrow (no doubt in order to entice you to be part of the program) is distinct from that.

I've borrowed books I would never have spent money on if I had had to.  (I found some, including yours, Michael, that I enjoyed enough to buy more by the author later, but would probably have not bought the first one.)

Betsy

Fair enough, but someone is paying and someone is getting paid. Similarly, I'd count copies sold to libraries. We'd count those once because the author only gets paid once. But what if the author got paid per check out, and that amount was similar to what she'd been paid had the reader taken the book home for keeps?

[Monique]

I think Betsy's questions about who is the audience for this and what does KB, if anything, want to gain from it are important.

If it's KB authors then anyone and everyone should be included. If it's about the "Rise of the Indie" then indies only. I think "diluting" it with small press, and trad numbers makes it more a vanity than a statement.

[Betsy the Quilter]

Fair enough, but someone is paying and someone is getting paid. Similarly, I'd count copies sold to libraries. We'd count those once because the author only gets paid once. But what if the author got paid per check out, and that amount was similar to what she'd been paid had the reader taken the book home for keeps?

Whether borrows should be included, or library copies, I really have no comment.  That's for y'all to agree on.  I'm just saying that it's not a paid choice by the reader.  Now (as opposed to "liberry" books), the Prime member does make the choice to "spend" her or his one book a month on a particular book rather than another one, which I think is meaningful. 

From a reader standpoint, I'm not sure it makes much difference.  I suspect a book that is selling more is more likely to have more borrows?  (I'm sure y'all will tell me if I'm wrong)  From a reader point of view, I'm interested in seeing which authors are selling well, as a somewhat reliable indicator of value.

I think Betsy's questions about who is the audience for this and what does KB, if anything, want to gain from it are important.

Thanks, I'd like to know what the purpose is...I think that will help define what data should be collected.

Betsy

[MonkeyScribe]

Thanks, I'd like to know what the purpose is...I think that will help define what data should be collected.

The only purpose should be for fun, IMO. Mark a milestone in a place where friends can celebrate it. It should not be done to elevate (or lower) any writer on this board over any other.

[Betsy the Quilter]

In Harvey's initial post, he mentioned the posibility of it being a blog feature...to me that's aimed at readers, which is why I ask.  EDIT:  If the only purpose is to celebrate, it seems to me we have plenty of threads for celebration already here in the Writers' Café....

2nd Edit:  I don't really have a dog in this hunt, other than thinking it would be a useful tool for readers.  I can look at the bestseller's lists on Amazon, but that isn't narrowed down to KB authors...  I do want to support KB authors where I can.

Betsy

[Magda Alexander]

Borrows should be included because money flows to the author. Borrows are rarely reported by authors, so it would be interesting to see those figures. We could report the numbers as actual sales and borrows. Just a suggestion.

[NathanHaleJefferson]

I vote for an 'average price' per book.  Doesn't have to be scientific but guesstimated/estimated would be fine.  If you are all .99 or all 5.99 it is a big difference.

[Rhynedahll]

I keep up with my sales on a spreadsheet and have no problem with sharing the data.  I can without much difficulty supply all of the breakdowns discussed.

However, I doubt many writers are as compulsive as I am about recording daily sales by channel.  (With the use of medication, I have resisted the impulse to record sales by the hour.) 

The honor system would be fine.

I vote for the 25,000 category and am not embarrassed to say that this is because of self-interest.

When are we getting the ball rolling?

[Cheryl Douglas]

*Big reminder that we are almost into July and I have no idea of my sales for the year.

Even so, it sounds like another great idea, Harvey.

 

I've stopped keeping track too. I have a general idea every month. Based on my earnings, I just divide the total by my purchase price, but I don't track month to month anymore. Nonetheless, I think this is a great idea!

Update: This motivated me to get off my butt and actually add those sales up, so it was a good thing for me. Thanks!

[KBoards Admin]

While I'm always happy to participate in the "sales" threads, I always feel like part of my accomplishment is left out of the equation.

For example, my 11,000 books in May ranked on 55th on Soph's list, yet I was the only person on the list selling books at $9.99.

I'm not saying it's "bad" or less of an accomplishment to sell 100,000 at .99 versus my 10K at 9.99 - I don't think the "bias" should go either direction.

I do agree with you. It's hard to factor that in, though, and I think it'd be harder to get authors to divulge $$ income and rank it that way. Also, I think it's more enticing for readers to see how many copies have been distributed, than how much in total was paid for the books sold.

Where will this list be maintained? I think that will help you answer who the intended audience is. (I view the "Writer's Cafe" to be for writers... not readers...)

I think that any authors with publishing deals should, essentially, have an asterisk denoting such. Nothing too specific, just something that indicates to the other writers that "Hey, this guy has some sort of publishing deal."

I'd also angle for a bit more of a breakdown...

1k, 5k, 10k, 25k, 50k, 100k, 250k, 500k, 1M

I'd even be a fan of 500, but it may not hold up to a cost/benefit discussion.

The sales data will be maintained directly by authors, with each author being able to update only their own sales records. The resulting information will be put in our header menus, our blog, and Facebook pages, so it's intended to be of interest to readers, writers, and media outlets.

Right now I have the sales milestones set as 1000, 5000, 10000, 50000, 100000, 250000, 500000, 750000, and 1000000. If that's too broad a range, it will be easy to add additional milestones later. Thanks!

I just want to suggest something to help you manage the data....

Google docs.  You can make a form for people to fill in and it will dynamically add the data to a spreadsheet that you can work with online or download to Excel.  I know you have assistants in your business here, so it might be helpful to have something that can be group-accessed.  It's great because it can be manipulated like an Excel sheet, with sorting, averaging, graphs, charts, blah, blah, awesomeness, blah.

Here's an example of the type of form you can make.  Recently sophrosyne did one as well to track monthly indie sales too.  I use this resource for doing my massive indie book giveaways too. 

http://ellecasey.com/book-bloggers/

Thanks! I've used Google docs too and find they're great for collaborative data sharing, and data gathering. For this, though, there are some advantages in having the information in a database and driving the forms from there. I'll be announcing what I've come up with, in this thread, in the next few minutes.

[Preach]

Great idea! I would include a lot more milestones, though. More chances for people starting off and more opportunity to celebrate moving up a level. Someone mentioned 25K. I would add 250K and 750K. And start as low as 10, 50, 100, 500, 1,000. Those are the hardest milestones to hit, in my opinion.

I like hugh's idea, but if I could add a twist. What if there are >2< seperate threads. One for lower milestones like hugh mentioned, and one for higher milestones like you mentioned!

[KBoards Admin]

I've completed a first pass at this, and it's ready for your updates.

If you go to http://kboards.com/authors you'll see a list of authors, sorted by estimated sales.



Near the top, there's a link for you to add your own sales data. Each author can only add/edit his own sales data.



For those of you who use pen names, or who have author names different from your KB names, there is a place for you to list up to five of those.

Please give it a go and let me know your feedback. Thanks!

[Estelle Ryan]

Harvey, this is really cool! Thanks for doing this. Some thoughts: I wonder if you could add a comma to the numbers. 1,500,000 is easier to read that 1500000 (to my eyes). On the Sales page, the columns are for milestones, est. sales and genre. Could you add number of books there? It will give a better context. I would actually find that more interesting than the 'more info'. Thanks again - I love this idea!!

[KBoards Admin]

Thanks, Estelle!

Oops, I had meant to include the number of titles in the Estimated Sales column... thanks for catching that. I've made that change.

Working on adding commas now!

[KBoards Admin]

Update: added comma separators to the displayed numbers on the Author Sales page.

[Preach]

yeah i like the commas better. I had to count amanda's zeros and think about it a second before I figured out where shes at.

[Not Here]

For those of you who use pen names, or who have author names different from your KB names, there is a place for you to list up to five of those.

Please give it a go and let me know your feedback. Thanks!

Are the pen names just for data purposes or will they be showing up anywhere? I'm really anal about keeping my editing name (which is also my real name) and my author name separate (at least for right now). I don't mind some knowing both but I wouldn't want to make this public.  

[Rykymus]

Uh, I tried it. But why is my pic so BIG!

And what are supporting links?

[Hugh Howey]

Uh, I tried it. But why is my pic so BIG!

And what are supporting links?

In my opinion, it isn't big enough!