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Is KDP Chump Change for Chumps?

53K views 375 replies 116 participants last post by  Betsy the Quilter 
#1 ·
I am looking at KDP from a business perspective. Is anyone really doing well with KDP? If you would have told me that books ranked 10,000 - 50,000 or so only make a few hundred dollars a month before I was a writer, I would have been astonished.  Now I realize that is the case.

So now my concern is that there is very little money to be made in KDP unless an author consistently ranks in the top 500 or so. For money, real money where you can survive and thrive comfortably, buy a house, travel, and have money left over, that seems to be the case. Otherwise, writing is just a hobby because $20,000 or so is not really living for me anyway.

I read an article that said most authors make four figures. If it takes several months to write a book, and you make a few hundred a month, well, that is a few dollars an hour. That places most authors well below fast food workers, and even some panhandlers.  Is time better spent doing something else, even if you love to write, if you want to make a living?

The only reason I bring this up is because I have seen people struggle, including myself, waiting for that better someday that never comes. Don't get me wrong - I love to write, and I love words, and I have made enough money to survive, but it is not living.  Writing is no longer fun if there is only chump change.

I have heard others say you just have to keep writing, and then the money will accumulate. The problem is that the books may de-rank faster than you can put new ones out, so it becomes a rather vicious cycle.

I have written both fiction and nonfiction. The nonfiction has much more staying power, but it took me two years to write the book! Fiction I can crank out faster, but it de-ranks faster. So, is it worth it? Is this even a  real business, or is the opportunity cost just too high? I think the numbers show most authors just don't make much in KDP, and very few are the exception. Am I wrong?
 
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#129 ·
CJAnderson said:
I think it also depends on your writing goals. There are ways to write if your goal is strictly to make money. Other people write for different reasons. Figure out exactly why you are writing is the first step.
I just wanted to go back, circle this, and draw some arrows and stars around it.

Knowing why you personally are in this, and realizing that it is your personal reason, goes so far in avoiding a lot of angst. It affects all of your decisions and strategies.
 
#130 ·
Wayne Stinnett said:
Not sure how you're coming up with those numbers, but a book that's ranked #10K is selling 10-15 per day, or 300-450 a month. Priced at $3.99, that's $800-$1200 a month. All six of mine are in Select and if it weren't for promos, they'd all be in the 10K to 15K ranks. Still, that's $4800 to $7200 a month. More than I made as a truck driver. ;)

Nobody is going to make a living on one book. Writing more books is the key.
First of all congrats on your success. That is inspiring.
I do have several books, both fiction and nonfiction. Nonfiction is typically priced higher - up to $8.99. All books are in KU right now as other platforms have not fared very well no matter the genre. Interestingly, since KU the fiction has moved to borrows, they are more typically at a $1.40 price point than the previous $2.99 - $3.99 * .7, and the nonfiction has been rather unaffected with added borrows at the same purchase price. Overall, this dropped my income but not the rankings. So, in the future, how much further will authors be squeezed? This is not a criticism of KU, but rather the overall business model that has a lack of control baked in. Who knows what is going to happen month by month. When we rely on the income to eat, of course this is of some concern.

Mark E. Cooper said:
Correct. It took 7 books for me, and mine are $4.99. I'm in all the different stores, yet Amazon is still 50% of all income and Audible 35%.

Don't give up, mate. Back in 2001 I never thought I would be doing this for a career. Miracles DO happen.
That is inspiring and very encouraging. I hardly sell anything on other platforms (Apple, Kobo, B&N) and these are books that sell daily on Amazon. So back to KU, where the income hits occur. Not sure what is going on there with other platforms.

Simply Unbound said:
I'd rather be a poorly compensated KDP chump than a 9-to-5 grind chump, particularly considering the 9-to-5 now tends to come with unpaid overtime.

Your results may vary, however.
True enough. From that perspective, I worked over 80 hours a week where I made five times as much money on an annual basis vs. self-publishing, but there's much less difference on an hourly basis. However, with my reckless ventures into self-publishing, I picked my head up and looked around, only to realize that I have thoroughly trashed my resume, so there is no safety net anymore. Oops. Or good riddance. Forced to survive with what I create, and its liberating and terrifying at the same time. I probably did it subconsciously as I saw too many employees get their throats cut over the years.

cbaku said:
If you just needed to vent a little, I get it, and consider yourself hugged.But it's writing, and THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES. So, give up in relief and do something else, or get back to work. xo
Okay, I needed a hug and a kick in the butt. So thank you. And I do wonder at times where this platform is going. In this case it caused me to freeze up a bit instead of write, (and of course vent), so thank you.

ireaderreview said:
*******

There are very very very few areas of business (or for that matter jobs) where you will have

Lesser profits
Lesser Control
Lesser Satisfaction of Owning the Customer Relationship
Lesser Locus of Influence

than selling digital content through a store to someone else's customers, where you own ZERO% of the customer relationship.

If you want to make a living from writing, then either figure out a way to create a store owned by authors themselves, or build your own store and your own direct channels to readers.

And do consider the fact that the range of authors who'll be able to make $5,000 or more a month from books is probably going to be between 55,000 and 5,500. Is there a way you can guarantee being in the Top 55,000? What about top 5,500? If not, and if you do need the money, then you have to get a day job and write for fun.
You honed in on my main concern. Loss of control and consequently dwindling profits. This is also true for music, and art, and movies, etc. If the answer is author ownership of the company, sounds like a platform outside of the Big 4 (online) and the Big 5 (traditional). If Amazon takes the direction of crushing profits to under $1, there has to be a response from authors, otherwise it's probably not enough pain to establish an alternative as we've already seen.

drno said:
I disagree. There is too much hype and not enough numbers. The list said that 45000 authors were making about 5000 bucks a month. That is not true. At Amazon Author Rank 13000 you make about 550 bucks a month. My question is not whether someone is frugal, but what Amazon Author Rank do you have to be to make 2000 bucks a month? I think this is the sort of information new writers would like to know. Also others trying to figure out whether full time writing is worth pursuing or not.
Yes, the more metrics to make a sound business decision, the better. If over 95% of authors, just as an example only, are not making a livable wage (defined by the individual), then it may not be worth pursuing as a business, no matter how much you love writing (or another viable platform has to be created).

Shelagh said:
I am looking at being a professional golfer from a business perspective. Is anyone really doing well playing golf? If you would have told me that many golfers with a scratch handicap only make a few hundred dollars a month before I took up golf, I would have been astonished. Now I realize that is the case.

So now my concern is that there is very little money to be made in playing golf unless a golfer consistently ranks in the top 500 or so. For money, real money where you can survive and thrive comfortably, buy a house, travel, and have money left over, that seems to be the case. Otherwise, golf is just a hobby because $20,000 or so is not really living for me anyway.
Ha ha. Well done. You know I did visit family in California who lived next to a pro golfer. I never heard of him because he basically just qualified for pro tournaments. He had a 1.5 million dollar house in California (which basically means 1,600 sq ft,) but nice! :eek:

timstevens said:
Absolutely. I've been self-publishing three years come April. Never had anything published before that. I've never had a top 500 book, apart from brief spells following BookBub promos. Most of the time, my books are in the 20-50K rankings on Amazon.com, and 3-10K in the UK.

But I have 13 novels. I have a core of rabid regular readers. And I'm making the equivalent of around 60% of my day-job salary from my books each month. My goal is to go part-time in a year, and I'm on course to hit that.

You can crack this, OP. Decent writing, reasonably popular genre, prolific and steady output, and judicious marketing. Plus a bloody thick skin.
Very uplifting.
 
#132 ·
wtvr said:
tl;dr

To recap:
People who make $ to $$ say it is impossible to succeed except for luck but wanting more than that makes you a greedy sellout anyway, so don't ever change!
People who make $$$ to $$$$$ say hey there are lots of ways to skin a cat but success is just around the corner if you make some strategic decisions about what and how you're writing and follow the examples of people who are doing well.

OK who do you wanna believe?
I'll add another group.

Those who SAY they make $$$$$ and you need to follow their lead or you will be a chump, but they are posting anonymously and with no way to verify even one book sale... ever.

The Internet is full of people who make up their own persona, post on public forums, and give people advice or call them stupid.

ALWAYS validate the source.

It could easily be a 14 year old kid using his mother's computer in the basement who just gave you million dollar book marketing advice...

Is there someone posting in these threads who makes $1000 a day in KDP sales? Could be.

Is there someone posting from their darkened bedroom laughing at how he fooled all these so-called professionals? Could be.
 
#133 ·
Dactyl said:
The Ancient Egyptians knew they couldn't build inverted pyramids. What makes some modern humans think they can?
I have no idea what you're getting at, but I think there actually is a convention center in Tokyo that's an inverted pyramid inside a frame.

So in answer to your question: advanced engineering science combined with superior materials.
 
#135 ·
This post has been so enlightening. Can I just say how much I love kboards because I learn so stinking much. It was so interesting for me to see what authors are making and the perceptions they have about other authors. Unless someone is doing extremely well, it's nearly impossible to know how much they make unless they share that data. Thank you to all of you who are brave enough to do so.
 
#137 ·
Lhhansen said:
Ha ha. Well done. You know I did visit family in California who lived next to a pro golfer. I never heard of him because he basically just qualified for pro tournaments. He had a 1.5 million dollar house in California (which basically means 1,600 sq ft,) but nice! :eek:
If you are happy with the golf analogy, you might find some useful advice here:

http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/242205
 
#138 ·
Stephanie Marks said:
Hmmmm after defending erotica and romance writers on this thread my urban fantasy story was magically 1-starred. No written review just a single star slapped on it for its very FIRST rating. Which could essentially crush any chance it has to flourish. Now call me paranoid but I find it a bit hard to believe that this is an authentic rating. Especially after hearing about how some posters here 1-star other forum members that they disagree with. So if this was a K-Board member getting back at me, you suck.
Why do you think so many of us either left or are anon now? Sorry this happened to you :(
 
G
#139 ·
Concerning the original post, this was exactly how I felt.

Before I published anything, I spent about 2 years trying to be an online poker pro, because I always killed in live action tournaments. I put a lot of time and money into it, but after a while it didn't matter how much I changed about what I was playing, and how I was playing, I always broke even.

I would have games where I felt like I had pulled off brilliance to win, and other games where opponents just flopped stupid river cards to take me out. It was a reoccurring pattern. In the end, my great skills weren't enough to offset other people's good luck.

When I came into writing, I did just over a year writing horror, and made 100 dollars. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered - but I was trying to follow the sage advice - write in series, write novels, write what you love etc. Didn't work for me. And the advice said, just keep going, just keep going until you make it.

And I did a reversal. I became a hack and started writing fake romance just to see if it would work. The numbers basically said I had WAAAAY more chance of making it in the category but I got a lot of hate, and the dollars weren't enough to sustain me in the beginning.

I'd already given up romance and decided I would be a working stiff, using horror writing as a hobby, when like my 15th or so book that had been out for six weeks went from 190k in the store to 5k in 2 days.

What did I do?

I put it in select.

So anyway.... until that moment, it was chump change. It was like a rigged game - like the online poker - where I would always break even, and never make any money.

But I found a winning formula. Since then I've kept at it, and in February I earned 5,000 USD. Which is even more awesome because I live in Australia and our dollar currently sucks.

So weird it happened that way. But the message is pretty clear.

I could have given up and only been ONE BOOK away from my dreams  :)
 
#142 ·
Stephanie Marks said:
Oh cool! Thanks for letting me know. I feel SO much better now. Everyone please go back to what you were doing. Nothing to see here. Authentic 1-stars I can handle with a skip and a smile. Though no matter what I click on im not seeing a review anywhere.
If you click on the "1 star" to the left of the ratings graph it should take you to the rating.

Hope this helps!

EDIT: Here's a link to the reviewer's page--your review is the most recent. Strangely, I can't find the permalink to the review that is usually there; wonder if Amazon is playing with the options.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A2GHC1TJFTW6KJ/ref=cm_cr_pr_pdp?ie=UTF8

Betsy
 
#143 ·
When I first read the title of this thread, I went to the cupboard to set out the popcorn. Then I read a bit and got the kettle ready. Before long, I put the popping process on hold and was reading some interesting points. Recently, I started heating up the kettle. Glad to see I don't have to make popcorn. I really wasn't very hungry anyway. 8) :p
 
#144 ·
I used to play poker for a living. At first, it did feel like people were always lucky and no matter how hard I tried, I would just lose eventually. Then I studied my butt off, read all the books, watched tons of videos, memorized Caro's Book of Tells etc. And I played poker, 35-90 hands an hour, 18 hours a day, for months.  I started at .02/.04 with 10 dollars. Lost it down to .70. Then built it to 1700, cashed out, and started playing live as well. After a few months, I became a consistently winning small stakes player. Two nights a week and rent would be paid. Another couple nights online, and I had food. Another couple, I could make payments on my college debt.

I learned it wasn't that other people were lucky. I lost at first because I wasn't good enough. I didn't know enough, I hadn't practiced enough, I lacked experience. Other people were just better than I was. Over the long term, luck wasn't much of a factor. The real factor was hard work and study/smarts, and the sheer guts to do it (never underestimate guts in poker, or in life really).

It's the same way with writing, in my mind. When I started writing I did the same thing (still kind of do). I wrote a ton. I read every writing book I could get my hands on. I became a workshop junkie. When my stories didn't sell, I wrote more, I studied more, I tried harder.  I never let myself believe anything other than "I will be a bestseller and get rich doing this."

Who cares about what others are doing? Study what the people who have careers similar to what you want are doing. Work hard, keep improving, keep learning what works for you and your goals. Ignore the rest.  Just because lots of people fail doesn't mean you are somehow doomed to the same fate. Ignore fate. Make your own. :)
 
#145 ·
Sometimes I think people spend so much time complaining - that we overlook our blessings.

I'm in my 40's now. I've been writing since I was a teenager. I can't think of any time in my life when earning a living as a writer has ever been easier.

I know way too many other writers who are doing well at this point to be a doomsayer. You can write, publish, and reach countless numbers of people in a flash.  Not only that but most of the profit goes back into the writers pocket.

This is an amazing time for writers. I've never seen so many writers do so well - I just chatted with a friend who averages 5 to 8k a month from her writing. And she's not the only person I know like that. They aren't big names - and you probably never even heard of her. But she's out there doing it.

So even if you make $100 a month (or less) that's a helluva lot more than most writers could've expected to make in the past.
 
G
#146 ·
I love your story No Cat. I did know before you had played poker.

Writing, straight away, had something poker never had - if I make a sale, I don't lose it the next round. With poker you're on a see saw constantly.

I watched thousands of hours of poker related material. I watched every tournament from the 90s till present. In full.

I read all the main books. I was really smart about making the correct decision each hand.

The problem with online poker wasn't my play. It wasn't how I had played a hand and had to work on that. Too many hands I played perfectly, that I should have won, resulted in stupid luck for the opponent and him winning. The theme never stopped. Bad beat after bad beat after bad beat.

Since then, pokers just a hobby.

Other people, in regards to writing, are essential for building your guide to success. My first successful book, after all the drafts and non selling books, was when I 'copied' another author's book. I read her book and made it my own. I ripped her off.

But I'm so weird, everyone says my books are nothing like they're read before. So different. So my take on her writing is bizarre for the majority.

But it sold. For the first time it sold.

Writing isn't a luck game. Not in the same way poker is.
 
#147 ·
No Cat said:
When my stories didn't sell, I wrote more, I studied more, I tried harder. I never let myself believe anything other than "I will be a bestseller and get rich doing this."

Who cares about what others are doing? Study what the people who have careers similar to what you want are doing. Work hard, keep improving, keep learning what works for you and your goals. Ignore the rest. Just because lots of people fail doesn't mean you are somehow doomed to the same fate. Ignore fate. Make your own. :)
I agree with pretty much everything No Cat said. The above is the most important part, IMO. Comparing books between authors is useful from a planning standpoint. Comparing careers, not so much.

There are self-pub success stories in every genre on KU, just as there are on most of the major vendors. There are also plenty of books out there that are really, really good in terms of storytelling, craft, and style that make almost no money compared to books where the quality is questionable and definitely a matter of taste.

The reasons these disparities exist are many: bad / little to no marketing, amateurish packaging, whether or not a book follows current trends or anticipates future ones, niche subject matter, sales momentum, etc. Compare books that you personally consider a "miss" with books you consider "hits." When were they launched -- day of the week, month, year, during what trend? Were they in a series? Were they free or discounted for sometime? Did the author say publicly that they used promo sites? If so, which ones? Is their packaging professional? Are they hitting not just the tropes of the genre but the tropes as they exist in current trends?

This has been said before, many, many times, and there are plenty of people who still post here under their author names who are making full-time livings being exclusive in KU.

Also, it's really tiresome to see people bashing romance / erotica when it wasn't even brought up in connection with success strategies. You can choose to believe people without verifiable sales due to pseudonyms or not, but it's pretty low to insult them and then complain that their sales aren't proven when they were harmed into turning pseudonymous in order to avoid retaliation that could affect their livings.

Like this:

Patty Jansen said:
As for people who suggest that we should all sell our souls and write smut, they can go and bark up the creek with the other dogs.
I can't believe that this comment is still up (after a mod has visited this thread!).
 
#148 ·
It's funny how things have changed. It used to be that the only thing people cared about was getting an agent and selling to NYC. It wasn't about the money then....because everyone knew that no one made real money in writing....except for a few lucky ones who got the rare six figure advances.....and we've seen since then how that's not as great as it seems, when you factor in it's paid over several years.

Now there are new authors who for some reason expect to instantly be financially free from "selling on kindle".

But if it was that easy, obviously everyone would have figured out 'the formula'.

Even if you do figure out the formula, it doesn't mean you would be successful implementing it. I'm really enjoying reading some of the edgy serials with cliff-hangers...but I know there is no way I could begin to write those. I write what calls to me, and it's mostly sweet romance and I knew going in to this that I wasn't likely to strike it rich.....but it was never about the money for me. I have a day job that I like, and no intention on leaving it anytime soon.

Having to make a certain amount of money or being under financial pressure makes it that much harder to be successful with writing or anything, I have found. So much of what we do is mental, and our attitude affects our outcome....that sounds new agey I know.....but I have found it to be true and seen it to be true with others.

I think if you focus on finding the right fit for you with writing and write for the joy of it.....that could lead to more success than you expect. Especially if you are also aware of the market. My sweet romances are doing better than I ever imagined that they would. There is a market for sweet. It might not be as huge as the market for the hot stuff, but that's okay.

I remember a post Viola Rivard had here some time ago that I always found interesting. She was talking about how she decided to focus on writing paranormal shifter romance. How she really liked paranormal romance in general, and wanted to do shifters. If she was purely writing from her heart, her first choice wouldn't have been a BBW heroine, but she recognized that it was a very popular trend and why not give her new series a better shot at success? So she did and if I remember, she then added the menage element and then everyone started copying her when her books went crazy. But she was so smart to recognize what would take her book to an even more popular level....combining her passion for the story with market savvy to help it stand out and sell even better.
 
#150 ·
ShaneJeffery said:
I love your story No Cat. I did know before you had played poker.

Writing, straight away, had something poker never had - if I make a sale, I don't lose it the next round. With poker you're on a see saw constantly.

I watched thousands of hours of poker related material. I watched every tournament from the 90s till present. In full.

I read all the main books. I was really smart about making the correct decision each hand.

The problem with online poker wasn't my play. It wasn't how I had played a hand and had to work on that. Too many hands I played perfectly, that I should have won, resulted in stupid luck for the opponent and him winning. The theme never stopped. Bad beat after bad beat after bad beat.

Since then, pokers just a hobby.

Other people, in regards to writing, are essential for building your guide to success. My first successful book, after all the drafts and non selling books, was when I 'copied' another author's book. I read her book and made it my own. I ripped her off.

But I'm so weird, everyone says my books are nothing like they're read before. So different. So my take on her writing is bizarre for the majority.

But it sold. For the first time it sold.

Writing isn't a luck game. Not in the same way poker is.
Writing is a lot like poker, actually. In my experience anyway. You write a book, it might sell, it might not. You try to do all the right things, make the correct decisions, but nobody knows. You can make a killing one month and have nothing the next. Sales can die out overnight. Book 1 might sell like crazy and nobody buys book 2. You can write a book that is amazing, with a great cover, great description, tons of marketing push, etc and... people will buy Bearillionaire* instead. That's sort of how the game works, if you think of it as a game. Only thing to do is keep going and know that if you are really good, the math will work out in your favor.

Though I do agree, poker certainly has some serious variance to it. It ain't for the faint. Compared to playing cards, writing to make millions is a pretty low risk venture. So much more depends on a hand than just making the mathematically correct decision. A lot is instinct. I used to play sit-n-gos in front of friends on the projector and they'd be screaming at me not to do a thing or to do another thing. But I trusted my gut and six or seven times out of ten, my gut was right. That's all the edge I needed. It's sort of the same for me in writing. You can't control all factors, but so far I've learned from my mistakes and I'm now one of those "outliers" that everyone talks about like we're some kind of mystery. Funny how that works. :)

But hey, it can all end tomorrow. Which is why I should probably finish this next book, eh? ;)

*not that this is a bad thing. I think that Terry Bolryder is brilliant as heck with a great sense of humor ;)
 
#151 ·
Stephanie Marks said:
Btw- they don't say it's too short, they called it a waste of time.
Yes, the reviewer did say "short."

It's short, can read it in about 5 minutes. There's nothing exciting about it as it's predictable. There's nothing romantic about it as the only romantic things that happens is a kiss at the very end. Honestly, this so-called "book" needs to be retitled as perhaps a prologue because that's all it is.

O.K., so she didn't like your writing style, and she didn't like the plot. But besides all of that, and in all fairness to the reviewer (not that we need to be fair to reviewers), when you charge $2.99 for a book whose Amazon-estimated length is 30 pages, you're going to get some people who are unhappy just for that alone. (Yes, I know that the length is right there for everyone to read before they buy but sometimes---often---they don't.)
 
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