Author Topic: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments  (Read 7116 times)  

Offline jdcore

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HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« on: December 30, 2016, 11:12:12 AM »
If somebody else has posted this I apologize. I looked but didn't see a thread about it.

Anyway, this article from HuffPo is exactly what the Sell More Book Show guys would call an example of mahogany desk syndrome gone wild, but the comments! Oh, the glorious comments. Enjoy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laurie-gough/selfpublishing-an-insult-_b_13606682.html?

Offline katygirl

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2016, 11:15:25 AM »
I gasped at the title and skipped the article.  Went right to the comments.   ;D ;D

Offline Stacy Claflin

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2016, 11:16:56 AM »
I couldn't make it past the fourth paragraph. Wow.
 

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2016, 11:18:19 AM »
Huffington Post bloggers get paid for page views, much like KU.  So I never click to read their articles slamming self publishing.

They only publish this crap to get us to comment and bring each other there so that they get big paychecks from all the page views. I'm not going to feed them.

Offline Berries

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2016, 11:36:17 AM »
Cherise-

Actually, Huffpost bloggers don't get paid anything. Not a dime. They write for free for the "exposure." They've never paid their writers a dime.

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Offline Boyd

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2016, 11:44:31 AM »
The bad thing about this, is the writer of this article is also an editor.  I already see how this is going to potentially hurt her business.  Oh, and the comments are still hilarious.  I keep checking back in to read the additions and replies.

Offline EvanPickering

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2016, 11:49:09 AM »
APPLY COLD WATER TO THE BURNED AREA  ;D ;D ;D

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Offline Amanda M. Lee

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2016, 11:50:56 AM »
All you guys are doing is seeing that she gets more money. HuffPo articles are often clickbait because that's how the writer gets paid (they don't get paid otherwise, in fact, in a lot of cases). The only one reading that article is other indie authors and every time you post the link the author gets more money. I would say she's getting exactly what she wants.

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Offline Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2016, 11:54:24 AM »
Huffington Post bloggers get paid for page views, much like KU.  So I never click to read their articles slamming self publishing.

They only publish this crap to get us to comment and bring each other there so that they get big paychecks from all the page views. I'm not going to feed them.

Read this too late.  ::)

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Offline Ann in Arlington

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2016, 11:56:47 AM »
Folks: absolutely it is acceptable to discuss the merits of the article and whether you agree or disagree.

It is NOT acceptable to discuss the relative success or failure of the author, or to otherwise comment on her character.

Such posts have been/will be removed.

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Offline Anarchist

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2016, 12:10:47 PM »
HuffPo does have a journalistic arm: http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/

Everything else is just a collection of personal blogs.

There are 3 billion people online. Don't let one person's opinions rustle your jimmies.

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Offline raminar_dixon

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2016, 12:13:48 PM »
That article was straight outta 2011.


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2016, 12:15:36 PM »
I considered creating my own HuffPo blog in order to post anti trade publishing click bait. But I would rather write books!

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Offline LilyBLily

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2016, 12:31:18 PM »
And they advise "Don't read the comments." I laughed and laughed. Nice to see some familiar names and faces, too.

Bollocks, indeed. Jane Austen was a self-published author. Good point to remember.

Offline Stacy Claflin

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2016, 01:14:42 PM »
Read this too late.  ::)


Me too! But the comments were fun to read. :)
 

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2016, 01:51:55 PM »
Skimmed the very outdated article to get to the real meat instead of just starchy potatoes - and what a great smack-down (WWF style) so many have made in their comments.  Made my year!

Offline Boyd

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2016, 02:05:39 PM »
In all honesty though, it would be awesome if the author of the article (Laurie Gough) showed up here.  The indie community is so overwhelmingly helpful in general that maybe she could learn something new.  There is some merit to doing the slog I suppose, but self publishers are doing a lot more hat wearing than many believe.  Content creation, scheduling of contractors, production schedules, cover art, arc releases, marketing, advertising and sales.  Not just writing the next great novel.

Offline LilyBLily

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2016, 02:25:06 PM »
Although we're enjoying the comments, she has probably been urged not to read them. If you or I had to bear hundreds of overwhelmingly critical comments, we'd be pretty unhappy.

Someone please clarify if HuffPo actually pays by the page view or comment, or if this was just a clickbait piece intended as self-promotion.

Offline V.P.

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2016, 02:30:52 PM »
In all honesty though, it would be awesome if the author of the article (Laurie Gough) showed up here.  The indie community is so overwhelmingly helpful in general that maybe she could learn something new.  There is some merit to doing the slog I suppose, but self publishers are doing a lot more hat wearing than many believe.  Content creation, scheduling of contractors, production schedules, cover art, arc releases, marketing, advertising and sales.  Not just writing the next great novel.
Probably also has no idea how much money the majority of us spend nowadays on getting our books professionally edited and proofread. Those are by far the greatest expenses in my production budget.


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2016, 02:31:00 PM »
In all honesty though, it would be awesome if the author of the article showed up here.

The chances of that happening are slim to none. 

I say leave her to HuffPo while we get paid for our work by people who really matter - our readers.





edited for tone -- feel free to send PM if you have questions -- Ann
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 06:54:58 AM by Ann in Arlington »

Offline Mari Oliver

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2016, 02:59:06 PM »
Although we're enjoying the comments, she has probably been urged not to read them. If you or I had to bear hundreds of overwhelmingly critical comments, we'd be pretty unhappy.

Someone please clarify if HuffPo actually pays by the page view or comment, or if this was just a clickbait piece intended as self-promotion.
Then again, I'm sure she's expected nothing different...


Offline Lady Vine

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2016, 03:21:03 PM »
Meh. I don't mind clicking through to skim the article. These days traditional publishing doesn't pay very well, and I figure she'll need a way to subsidise her book earnings.

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Offline Seneca42

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2016, 03:38:29 PM »
I don't think the bloggers do get paid, at least according to this article

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.ibtimes.com/unpaid-huffington-post-bloggers-actually-do-want-get-paid-2313744%3Famp%3D1?client=ms-android-samsung

The irony is thick with this....

Professional journalists probably find it very annoying that huffpost is filled with "amateur bloggers" generating content (otherwise they'd have to pay real journalists to do it). Yet, she's happy to provide said content.

Traditional authors are upset with "amateur writers" generating content and competing with them.

She can't see that she is doing to professional journalists what we are doing to traditional publishers.

but as another poster said... this is nothing more than a click-bait article anyway.

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2016, 04:16:24 PM »
There's a link in one of the comments to Sue Grafton's FB page apologizing for her comments. She actually made those comments in an interview in 2012 and apologized back then. Now she's reposted the apology.


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2016, 05:02:22 PM »
Laurie Gough did give a kind-of apology for those she offended if you scroll far enough down in the comments. She basically admitted her opinion on the matter was borne out of ignorance.

Quote
Wow, I am so sorry! I seem to have struck a nerve with this article. I think it's because I and all my author friends must be living in a bubble. I haven't actually read many of these comments but have been receiving some really mean emails (along with a lot of really nice ones and lots of people agreeing with me). But for all those I've p*ssed off, I am really sorry and I do see that you have valid points. Really! I'm going to write another article about this with a much more balanced view. Something I didn't mention in my article is that I'm Canadian. I had no idea that self-publishing in the U.S. had taken off the way the way it has (not so in Canada where it's still very small.) So again, I'm so sorry for offending people and thanks for opening my eyes to your very valid viewpoints!
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Offline Eric Thomson

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2016, 05:18:53 PM »
As a citizen of the Great White North , I'll just note that her using the fact that she's Canadian as an excuse is rather specious and evasive, not to mention insulting to all my fellow Canuk kboarders, some of whom eclipse most Canadian trad pubbed authors when it comes to sales.


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Offline Nicholas Andrews

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2016, 06:07:16 PM »
That's why I called it a sort-of apology. It comes across more like backpedaling after not doing her research and getting caught, much like the author she quoted who also spouted off in her ignorance. I mean, does Canada have a different Internet than the rest of us or something?
   
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Offline Tulonsae

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2016, 06:21:53 PM »
That's why I called it a sort-of apology. It comes across more like backpedaling after not doing her research and getting caught, much like the author she quoted who also spouted off in her ignorance. I mean, does Canada have a different Internet than the rest of us or something?

Nope, we don't. But my personal experience with my local Canadian authors is that they mostly think of indie publishing as the old vanity self publishing and emphasize the trad path. I know there are a lot of Canadian authors here on KBoards - who are great. But the local writers in my area are pretty Canada-centric.

Offline Gentleman Zombie

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2016, 06:26:07 PM »
One of these articles comes out every year.  :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 06:44:10 AM by Ann in Arlington »

Offline 5ngela

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2016, 06:55:26 PM »
I love self publishing book. Keep up the great job self pub authors

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2016, 06:59:18 PM »
Why didn't you all tell me I had to spend at least a decade writing as an apprenticeship to become truly good?  Does this mean I am still lower than dog poop bad?
Argh the inglorious defeat of a thousand cuts infested by ten thousand lice from inbred camels that were truly stupid!

This is what I am going to live after reading this article.
I am defeated.
Blood, blood, and............  Death.

I view most of the article as Blivit.  (before anyone asks the above was sarcasm and yes I can see there are kernels of truth in there but I think everyone here except for the absolute newest realise that self pub is infinitely better than trad.)

Going to go sob now, or maybe just go to bed cause its late and I am tired.
still have to read the comments though.

I just read some more.  I can gather it is only WOMEN who are failures as self pubbers.  The writer did say she and her several times.  Thank the Dark One herself I am saved!
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 07:03:01 PM by tommy gun »
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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2016, 07:06:46 PM »
The new journalism 101:

1. Write extremely poorly-researched article based on one's uninformed opinion
2. Let the commenters turn it into click-bait
3. "Apologise"


Offline Seneca42

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2016, 07:21:19 PM »
Having had a little time to digest this, I came to an interesting personal conclusion.

Her article makes me realize I'm extremely happy I never even approached the traditional publishers. It sounds like she is not a very happy person and is lashing out in an attempt to make sense of how the world around her is changing and why (some) others who have chosen a different path are doing better than her. 

I'm Canadian as well, so please ignore her appeal to her citizenship as anything related to anything. It's not. Her ignorance has nothing to do with being Canadian. 

But I do think it's maybe worth considering whether this was someone attacking the self-publishing world, or rather, desperately trying to reinforce a belief that she made the right choice going with traditional publishing. I think it may very well be the latter (expressed in the form of the former). It was an emotional outburst, nothing more.

So ironically, I now feel sorry for her that in her "traditional publishing world", it has somehow shaped her views where this kind of behavior is somehow acceptable.


Offline KelliWolfe

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2016, 07:42:42 PM »
The new journalism 101:

1. Write extremely poorly-researched article based on one's uninformed opinion
2. Let the commenters turn it into click-bait
3. "Apologise"
Nail. Head. The line between actual journalism and editorial opinion pieces has completely vanished over the last twenty years, and these twits can't even understand that there's supposed to be any difference. To them, their opinions *are* facts that are just as valid as Newton's Laws of Gravity, so why bother doing any actual research?

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Offline GARael

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2016, 08:09:31 PM »
Came across this one earlier today and all I can say is wow, I've never been more relieved I went the indie route. Yes, it means wearing more hats, but it's obvious that a traditional publishing contract is not the holy grail the industry wants us to think it is if their authors are so threatened by the success of others. The article is so tinged with bitterness that many indies have achieved success on their own that authors like her, who did things "the right way," weren't able to. Sorry, but fortune favors the innovators and sour grapes won't get you half as far as sitting down and actually writing. The irony of this being a HuffPo article is too rich.
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Offline Bards and Sages (Julie)

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2016, 08:11:10 PM »
Feel free to remove mine if you want, but I think it's important to investigate why an author would diss self-published authors.

Perhaps you should investigate the fact that a great many authors (trade and indie) don't actually depend on Amazon as their sole source of sales?  You are assuming she is a failure because of the sales rank of a book? Go look at mine, then. I guess I am a failure too...though I just paid off my car four months early thanks to the expansion of my publishing business this year (December has been a very good month for me with print...Julie is a happy girl this month).

The article itself is full of misinformation and nonsense, and if people want to waste time on clickbait, well, that is what the internet is for, I suppose. But this "Your Amazon sales rank sucks, so you are a failure" BS gets under my skin and does a huge disservice to the community.

Insofar as the article itself, I have said it a thousand times but I will say it again. Outside the KB bubble, there is a lot of horrible self-published stuff out there. KB attracts a higher quality of self-publisher. In a lot of ways, this IS the equivalent of a professional organization for indie publishing. But "out in the wilds" so to speak? There is a lot of dreck out there. Perhaps instead of making fun of people who have, no doubt, been predominately exposed to the dreck, we can point them in the direction of the good stuff? Our time is much better spent shining a light on the high-quality stuff and raising awareness than it is trying to tear down another author who just happens to have opinions based on bad data.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 12:23:25 PM by Betsy the Quilter »

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Offline jdcore

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2016, 08:24:21 PM »
I'm surprised nobody has commented on my click-baity style headline for this thread. And I was so proud of it, too.

Offline Pizzazz

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2016, 08:29:22 PM »
Perhaps you should investigate the fact that a great many authors (trade and indie) don't actually depend on Amazon as their sole source of sales? You are assuming she is a failure because of the sales rank of a book? Go look at mine, then. I guess I am a failure too...though I just paid off my car four months early thanks to the expansion of my publishing business this year (December has been a very good month for me with print...Julie is a happy girl this month).

The article itself is full of misinformation and nonsense, and if people want to waste time on clickbait, well, that is what the internet is for, I suppose. But this "Your Amazon sales rank sucks, so you are a failure" BS gets under my skin and does a huge disservice to the community.

Insofar as the article itself, I have said it a thousand times but I will say it again. Outside the KB bubble, there is a lot of horrible self-published stuff out there. KB attracts a higher quality of self-publisher. In a lot of ways, this IS the equivalent of a professional organization for indie publishing. But "out in the wilds" so to speak? There is a lot of dreck out there. Perhaps instead of making fun of people who have, no doubt, been predominately exposed to the dreck, we can point them in the direction of the good stuff? Our time is much better spent shining a light on the high-quality stuff and raising awareness than it is trying to tear down another author who just happens to have opinions based on bad data.

Julie, I'm sorry you (or anyone else) is offended, but I stand by my post, and I won't take the time to argue with you about it.

That said, the moderator will remove my post if she chooses.

I'm fine either way.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 12:35:49 PM by Pizzazz »

Offline Pizzazz

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2016, 08:31:51 PM »
I'm surprised nobody has commented on my click-baity style headline for this thread. And I was so proud of it, too.

I used to write "click-baity style" article titles.  Yours is beautiful!  :)  :)

Offline ccasey

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2016, 08:35:10 PM »
I'm surprised nobody has commented on my click-baity style headline for this thread. And I was so proud of it, too.

"...you won't believe what happens next!" Whew. The reading experience wasn't complete without it.
          

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2016, 09:04:58 PM »
Her response is funny, "Lots of people sent me e-mails agreeing with me".

I didn't see a single comment in support of her in over 200 on that "article".

A bit ironic that someone making a Huffpost article would complain about self-publishing. Isn't she bypassing the gatekeepers of journalism? And in this case showing her ignorance.
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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2016, 09:19:27 PM »
Her response is funny, "Lots of people sent me e-mails agreeing with me".

I didn't see a single comment in support of her in over 200 on that "article".

A bit ironic that someone making a Huffpost article would complain about self-publishing. Isn't she bypassing the gatekeepers of journalism? And in this case showing her ignorance.
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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2016, 09:24:54 PM »
The new journalism 101:

1. Write extremely poorly-researched article based on one's uninformed opinion
2. Let the commenters turn it into click-bait
3. "Apologise"

Right?! 
Lol, and the "apology" that pretty much said, "sorry, but everyone I know believes the same thing..." Ugh. 😝

I know these sort of "articles" pop up on Huff Post regularly, so I can't say I'm shocked some authors believe any of it. Sour grapes, misinformation, head stuck in the sand, or outright refusal to consider any opinion but their own...well, that's never gonna change when it comes to the old indie authors vs "real authors" argument. (Or politics or religion or anything else for that matter!)

Yet what does shock me is the lack of backbone when the author gets backlash. No matter what your strongly held beliefs are, any adult should know that if you publicly insult, demean, and degrade a group of people in an online forum, you're going to get a very strong response. If you're steadfast enough to insult the entire indie community, well, then hold your ground and own it.  But if you're going to admit your opinion may be flawed, ownthat, too. None of this "everyone I know feels this way...". It wasn't everyone she knows who wrote that article, it was her name on the byline. Own it, apologize, and try to connect with the people you've insulted. It shows respect when you admit mistakes flat out without deflecting the blame.

And the cool thing about this community? I'd step up and move on, and heck, offer to help her make her author dreams into reality. I'm sure other authors here would do the same. After all, weren't we all starry-eyed hopeful authors at one time until the ugly truth of the publishing world smashed our dreams? We've all come through it in different ways, but I don't forget that journey.

Well, that's all I got right now. I changed from day jammies into night jammies & I'm gonna go write or something 😝😉

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2016, 09:46:45 PM »
As a citizen of the Great White North , I'll just note that her using the fact that she's Canadian as an excuse is rather specious and evasive, not to mention insulting to all my fellow Canuk kboarders, some of whom eclipse most Canadian trad pubbed authors when it comes to sales.

Double yes! to this comment. We don't live in a bubble (or igloos) up here. As excuses go, hers is a bust . . .
 

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2016, 10:03:21 PM »
Thanks! I loved this comment:
As someone who adores your writing I don't care if it's traditionally published, self-published or written on a juice box I will be reading it.
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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2016, 10:35:37 PM »

And the cool thing about this community? I'd step up and move on, and heck, offer to help her make her author dreams into reality. I'm sure other authors here would do the same. After all, weren't we all starry-eyed hopeful authors at one time until the ugly truth of the publishing world smashed our dreams? We've all come through it in different ways, but I don't forget that journey.

This.

I've talked by ones and twos and to whole rooms-full of hopeful authors, and very few are actually interested in doing it. They want a "secret" or "one weird trick" to success, or they try a few things and when the cash doesn't start falling from the sky, they decide "it won't work."

There's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path.


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2016, 12:18:54 AM »
Someone put this link in the Facebook self publishing group and it was taken down. Don't know who was responsible, but I wouldn't read anything by someone who obviously knows nothing about the subject. I shall go read the comments, though.


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2016, 12:43:03 AM »
I'm very new here, and I just finished my first year of having a published novel out, which I followed by two more (one under a different pen name than the other two). So, I also consider myself a new author, too.

I saw the article earlier today and considered jumping in to comment. But it really wasn't worth it.  Plenty of people had commented and as noted in this thread, I don't recall seeing any posts that agreed with the author of the blog article. And, at the end of the day, I don't need to explain myself for my choice of being an indie writer and posting a response seemed like I would be doing that.

IHMO, it boils down to not judging others and this article violated that in spades.  It seems to be in the same category of there being rules that all writing must follow and to violate them in some cardinal sin. One must never do this... one must never do that, etc.  And, of course, there are numerous differents styles of writing just as there are numerous different types of reader preferences. So there really are no absolutes as to such issues and as soon as someone says there are, the opinion is likely a flawed one.

Since I have been an indie author, I have met so many other authors and have found some brilliant writers whose works I have personally enjoyed and who I aspire to write more like. I also love the freedom to write whatever I want, and to be able to get out to market myself without having to go through a lengthy process to find an agent and then have that agent find a publisher.  I can also set my own schedule which is important for a mom working a full-time day job outside the home. And, of course, I like other self-published authors have spent money on experts to help me.

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2016, 12:51:42 AM »
Someone put this link in the Facebook self publishing group and it was taken down. Don't know who was responsible, but I wouldn't read anything by someone who obviously knows nothing about the subject. I shall go read the comments, though.
I couldn't read them all as there were too many, but I think the first one says it all. The one about the street musician. This sort of rubbish comes along every now and then, usually written by people who see their exclusive, lucrative strings of income gradually disappearing. There was one last year from an agent, saying we couldn't manage without an agent and another from someone who could only manage one book a year so wrote a post about how authors who write more can't be any good. The comments would make a good book though.


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2016, 12:52:43 AM »
I gave my two cents...and it ain't pretty...LOL

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2016, 01:13:59 AM »
I gave my two cents...and it ain't pretty...LOL

That comment section is a troll's dream come true.

I could post in there for weeks and have great fun.
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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2016, 01:28:47 AM »
There's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path.


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2016, 01:49:08 AM »
The trouble is with all such articles is that yes, trad published books go through multiple 'gatekeepers' but in the long run the only gatekeeper that counts is the buying public and trad or self published, if it doesn't find readers a book will not sell in any quantity.
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Offline Rickie Blair

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2016, 06:26:07 AM »
As a citizen of the Great White North , I'll just note that her using the fact that she's Canadian as an excuse is rather specious and evasive, not to mention insulting to all my fellow Canuk kboarders, some of whom eclipse most Canadian trad pubbed authors when it comes to sales.

Before I was bemused, but now I'm really annoyed. Being Canadian has nothing to do with it, Laurie. Geesh.


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2016, 06:43:46 AM »
Although we're enjoying the comments, she has probably been urged not to read them. If you or I had to bear hundreds of overwhelmingly critical comments, we'd be pretty unhappy.

Someone please clarify if HuffPo actually pays by the page view or comment, or if this was just a clickbait piece intended as self-promotion.

I have portal access to Huffpo to write articles any time I want, which they have the discretion to post or not to post to whichever channel they see as appropriate. I wrote over a dozen pieces, a few of which went viral. I wasn't paid a dime, because their arrangement is for "exposure" only. Non-staff HP writers--the vast, vast majority--are unpaid. Clicking on the article isn't helping the author, it's helping Huffpo.


Offline Betsy the Quilter

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2016, 06:46:51 AM »
Hey, multiple reports.  Locking while we review.

EDIT:  OK, review done.  Carry on.  Try not to insult anyone. :D

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« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 07:16:05 AM by Betsy the Quilter »
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Offline brkingsolver

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2016, 09:42:40 AM »
One has to consider the source. The editor of the Huffpo books section regularly publishes trad pub propaganda, including hatchet pieces such as this one and trumpets every "ebooks are dying, long live print" piece she can find.

To read the piece in question, you might be led to believe that the traditional publishers are the last wall holding back barbarous hordes. Of course, only the finest writing is published, no profit motive involved.

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Offline Not Lu

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2016, 11:23:29 AM »
The irony is thick with this....

Professional journalists probably find it very annoying that huffpost is filled with "amateur bloggers" generating content (otherwise they'd have to pay real journalists to do it). Yet, she's happy to provide said content.

Traditional authors are upset with "amateur writers" generating content and competing with them.

She can't see that she is doing to professional journalists what we are doing to traditional publishers.

but as another poster said... this is nothing more than a click-bait article anyway.

+1

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2016, 11:37:02 AM »
I gave my two cents...and it ain't pretty...LOL

Mine is over there, as well.  :)

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2016, 12:07:19 PM »
That's some bubble she's living in. I'm so proud of my indie author clients. They're not just authors, they're small business owners, just like me.
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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2016, 12:09:34 PM »
Laurie Gough did give a kind-of apology for those she offended if you scroll far enough down in the comments. She basically admitted her opinion on the matter was borne out of ignorance.

As a citizen of the Great White North , I'll just note that her using the fact that she's Canadian as an excuse is rather specious and evasive, not to mention insulting to all my fellow Canuk kboarders, some of whom eclipse most Canadian trad pubbed authors when it comes to sales.

Double yes! to this comment. We don't live in a bubble (or igloos) up here. As excuses go, hers is a bust . . .

Before I was bemused, but now I'm really annoyed. Being Canadian has nothing to do with it, Laurie. Geesh.

LOL -  p*ss ing off this many Canadians is an impressive feat ;-P

Sigh.  Hi everyone.  Long time, no see.  As I am Canadian, I feel compelled to apologize for this.  I also replied.  Now everyone can stop sending me emails :).

(Here's a link to Laurie's "apology" comment on her article.  If you expand replies to that, you'll see mine.  Included below for those of you who are lazy like me.)

"I got dragged out of vacation mode for this... ;-P ::waves at Laurie:: Indie author here, proud Canadian, 1.5+ million books sold, six years of supporting my family on my writing income, terribly embarrassed that someone who shares a country with me wrote this article.

Being a successful author is a rare thing, it doesn't matter how you go about it. There aren't many of us in any country, and most of us are busy enough that you won't find us at writer gatherings, especially ones that share the kind of dreck you've apparently heard and believed.

My viewpoint is that your article isn't insulting to indie authors - it's insulting to readers. Readers have already decided that what we write is valid, interesting, entertaining, and worth spending money on. So if you'd like to broaden your horizons, don't talk to indie authors (although I would suggest there's a pretty good education in actually reading the comments here.) Talk to people who read indie books. They are legion, and based on my sales numbers, at least some of them are Canadian.

One more thing, and I've sat here quite some time, hesitating to write it. You have a child with OCD. I have a child with autism, and like you, I've done an enormous amount of work and scientific research to help my boy. Imagine you've just read an article on OCD. One that believes no parent is qualified to help a child with OCD, that it's something only those who've got respectable credentials can do properly. Imagine that the article goes on to make incredibly disparaging judgments about the work parents of children with OCD do with their child, the obviously inadequate skills of all parents who even try, their lack of understanding about what could truly help their child, the damage they do to humanity by even trying. And if your head hasn't exploded yet, then imagine how you feel when you realize the writer of that article doesn't actually know any children with OCD or parents who are helping them, and lives in a bubble with other people with respectible credentials who've apparently never known any of those parents either.

People are p*ssed off because you've written that article.

You've written harsh, judgmental, dismissive words about a world you don't understand. If you're going to write a second article, my personal request would be that you treated it like you'd hope that professional who just wrote the scathing article about parents helping their children with OCD would treat their second attempt. With respect, with humility, and with a really big effort to get to know the world you've disparaged.

I'm Canadian, I'm a successful indie author, and I've had this conversation enough times that I promise not to strangle you in your sleep. If you really want to get to know my world, I'd be happy to talk with you."

Now I have to go write, or there will be one less successful self-published author in Canada ;-P
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Offline modwitch

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2016, 12:11:23 PM »
Also, ::waves to Ann & Betsy::  <3
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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2016, 12:24:53 PM »
Also, ::waves to Ann & Betsy::  <3


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2016, 12:28:48 PM »

 :-* :-* :-*

Don't be a stranger!

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2016, 12:32:31 PM »
Laurie Gough did give a kind-of apology for those she offended if you scroll far enough down in the comments. She basically admitted her opinion on the matter was borne out of ignorance.


It's nice that she sort of apologized.  It was pretty nuanced and iffy, though.  [mean stuff was here, and can be seen in the next post]
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 12:51:00 PM by daveconifer »

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2016, 12:44:12 PM »
It's nice that she sort of apologized.  It was pretty nuanced and iffy, though.  I'd have preferred a "Gee, I really had my head up my *** and don't know what the **** I'm talking about.  Next time I'll get a clue before insulting people in my field."

:D :D :D

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2016, 12:49:31 PM »
:D :D :D

Says the nicest man on the Internet.  (::waves:: Hi, Dave!)

Hey D!

Yeah, that was out of character and I already feel sheepish for posting it.  I think I will edit it down.

Glad to see you continuing to succeed.  I've been keeping track of you and all my old buddies and love to see it!

...dave

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2016, 01:01:31 PM »
You have a child with OCD. Imagine you've just read an article on OCD. One that believes no parent is qualified to help a child with OCD, that it's something only those who've got respectable credentials can do properly. Imagine that the article goes on to make incredibly disparaging judgments about the work parents of children with OCD do with their child, the obviously inadequate skills of all parents who even try, their lack of understanding about what could truly help their child, the damage they do to humanity by even trying. And if your head hasn't exploded yet, then imagine how you feel when you realize the writer of that article doesn't actually know any children with OCD or parents who are helping them, and lives in a bubble with other people with respectable credentials who've apparently never known any of those parents either.

This a perfect analogy!

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2016, 01:21:19 PM »
This a perfect analogy!

Thank you.  And thank you for fixing my typo (really, lol!)
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Offline BlouBryant

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2016, 01:39:53 PM »
. You have a child with OCD.

Bringing her child into the discussion isn't necessary or appropriate. Everyone's having fun with an old fashioned internet tar and feathering, but how about we leave her family out of it?

BB


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2016, 02:05:56 PM »
One has to consider the source. The editor of the Huffpo books section regularly publishes trad pub propaganda, including hatchet pieces such as this one and trumpets every "ebooks are dying, long live print" piece she can find.

To read the piece in question, you might be led to believe that the traditional publishers are the last wall holding back barbarous hordes. Of course, only the finest writing is published, no profit motive involved.

It might be simpler than that. In order to get one's first article published on HuffPo one has to have those ephemeral 'connections' first. Know this editor or that editor and so on. Once you've gotten access, you have a sign-on and can submit articles any time, effectively without editorial interference. (Intern, copy-editing.)

All of which is to say a HuffPo columnist is usually someone who is coming through trad publishing in some way, and is writing an article because they're told this is a way to publicize their new release. This author had an October 2016 release; either her publisher or a publicist connected her with an editor, and she wrote the most click-baitey thing she could, certainly. But it's also true that the HuffPo bias you speak of comes from the way one gets into HP in the first place.

My own access came about through a publicist hired by the publisher I was working with in 2014, and I had to pitch ideas and write a draft for them to consider. I can now write whatever I want and put it there if I want to. (I prefer the page hits for my own site, so I don't.)

Offline Rocket J. Williams

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #72 on: December 31, 2016, 02:11:13 PM »
Bringing her child into the discussion isn't necessary or appropriate. Everyone's having fun with an old fashioned internet tar and feathering, but how about we leave her family out of it?

BB

Ms. Gough's book is about that child, so, no, Modwitch's mention was not inappropriate in any way.


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« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 04:15:10 PM by Becca Mills »

Offline doolittle03

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2016, 02:22:52 PM »
Bringing her child into the discussion isn't necessary or appropriate. Everyone's having fun with an old fashioned internet tar and feathering, but how about we leave her family out of it?

BB
Actually, while I understand your point, Laurie published a book on the subject so she has made public the problem she faced and modwitch used the analogy correctly in a way that I believe Laurie can relate to. I know Laurie Gough personally. We live and socialize in our small village that is chock full of indie artists and creative people. I can see where she went wrong with her article--it was not out of malice or ill-feeling or jealousy but sheer ignorance. Which is where I have my problem. Because ... uh, Laurie ... next time drop me an email and ask a couple of questions before you go public with some seriously uninformed opinion will ya?
I'm not a huge seller but I could have directed her where to look to challenge her world view.
The basics of the most basic research is not in the article. Seriously disturbing to see that.


 

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #74 on: December 31, 2016, 02:46:49 PM »
Single parenting.  No time for knitting, sleeping, or internet ;-P

Once in a blue moon or so will be fine!

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #75 on: December 31, 2016, 03:01:14 PM »
Bringing her child into the discussion isn't necessary or appropriate. Everyone's having fun with an old fashioned internet tar and feathering, but how about we leave her family out of it?

BB

Thank you for sharing your opinion.  I'm sure you're not alone in having it.  That was my hesitation with what I wrote - and when I did it, I brought my child in with me too.  My intention wasn't and isn't tarring and feathering.  It was responding to her confusion about why people are p*ssed off, and my honest desire to maybe help her understand why, using common ground she and I have.  [I fully expect she's read articles on OCD by "experts" that make her head explode, just as I've read articles on autism that do that.] 

I also stick by my offer.  I'm a Canadian indie author who is very willing to have a conversation with her.  One I don't think she'd experience as tarring and feathering at all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 03:07:46 PM by modwitch »
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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #76 on: December 31, 2016, 03:04:59 PM »
I know Laurie Gough personally... I'm not a huge seller but I could have directed her where to look to challenge her world view.

If she's serious about listening, send her my way.  Truly.  I'm really happy to have that conversation.  Because, yeah.  Ignorance isn't our friend :)
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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #77 on: December 31, 2016, 03:07:04 PM »
(And thanks for your signature... *dabs at eye*)

I mean every word <3
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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #78 on: December 31, 2016, 04:05:42 PM »
Here's a very funny response to Laurie Gough by Joe Hunt.

http://www.itsjoehunt.com/huffpost-blogger-attacks-self-published-authors/


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #79 on: December 31, 2016, 04:07:42 PM »
If she's serious about listening, send her my way.  Truly.  I'm really happy to have that conversation.  Because, yeah.  Ignorance isn't our friend :)

Hey ModWitch!! So happy to see you here! I was actually thinking about you specifically when she made the "I'm in Canada. I didn't know" ignorant response. It would be great if she did talk to writers like you to figure out real facts before she attempts an apology article.
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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #80 on: December 31, 2016, 04:23:25 PM »
Actually, while I understand your point, Laurie published a book on the subject so she has made public the problem she faced and modwitch used the analogy correctly in a way that I believe Laurie can relate to. I know Laurie Gough personally. We live and socialize in our small village that is chock full of indie artists and creative people. I can see where she went wrong with her article--it was not out of malice or ill-feeling or jealousy but sheer ignorance. Which is where I have my problem. Because ... uh, Laurie ... next time drop me an email and ask a couple of questions before you go public with some seriously uninformed opinion will ya?
I'm not a huge seller but I could have directed her where to look to challenge her world view.
The basics of the most basic research is not in the article. Seriously disturbing to see that.
There was more than ignorance on display in that post. The language of malice and vitriol she used was so over the top I was shocked. When one publishes something that will be seen by the world, one really should read it before hitting "send", rather than displaying what can only be classified as a mean-spirited rant out in public.

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #81 on: December 31, 2016, 06:08:04 PM »
I mean every word <3

Good to see you back here, Deb. I was just telling my GD about you the other day and how you and your DD wrote a book together. Hoping she'll do the same with me.



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Offline modwitch

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #82 on: December 31, 2016, 06:18:08 PM »
Hey ModWitch!! So happy to see you here! I was actually thinking about you specifically when she made the "I'm in Canada. I didn't know" ignorant response. It would be great if she did talk to writers like you to figure out real facts before she attempts an apology article.

'lo!  One of the interesting side effects of this is that even I'm discovering a bunch of Canadian indie authors I didn't know about.  We're stealth :)

Good to see you back here, Deb. I was just telling my GD about you the other day and how you and your DD wrote a book together. Hoping she'll do the same with me.

LOLOL.  Um, be careful what you wish for?  :D  It was fun, and we have four more to do.  Not at all fast, however...
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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #83 on: December 31, 2016, 06:45:00 PM »


LOLOL.  Um, be careful what you wish for?  :D  It was fun, and we have four more to do.  Not at all fast, however...

Yeah, I think I'm getting that.  :D  We discuss things and I say great, write that down. Doesn't happen. I think I'll hide a tape recorder in my pocket.


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #84 on: December 31, 2016, 11:49:09 PM »

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #85 on: January 01, 2017, 06:43:00 AM »
Seems like she's the Canadian equivalent of our English Katie Hopkins? Who has a loud, offensive and usually uninformed opinion on  ... oh just about everything, really.













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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #86 on: January 01, 2017, 06:57:41 AM »
There was more than ignorance on display in that post. The language of malice and vitriol she used was so over the top I was shocked. When one publishes something that will be seen by the world, one really should read it before hitting "send", rather than displaying what can only be classified as a mean-spirited rant out in public.


Yeah, I'm not buying that argument either. She hit all the points present in these sort of articles, and never once admitted she had no idea being indie was such a big thing until her ears started burning. Back peddling, just like a politician. Her next article will probably be about how mean indies are.

She may have done everything "right", but it means nothing in the modern world of publishing. If people aren't reading her work, then she's writing out of ego alone. You can't eat ego, fix your house or car with it, or buy things with it. Maybe it makes a nice pillow to lay your head on?

The only gatekeepers I care about are myself and my readers. I don't need someone to validate me, I am a writer. I've been a reporter, and the founding editor and chief writer of a company newsletter for a major company. I've spent 50 years studying and practicing my craft and I don't need to justify to anyone how I choose to get my work out to readers.
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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #87 on: January 01, 2017, 07:47:12 AM »
So odd. It's all very 2009 and does not reflect our times at all.
I'm in the entertainment world, and she reminds me of some actor who wants to be discovered at the Schwab's counter. Even though it's long gone. In my opinion, most people should self-publish before seeking out traditional avenues, if they ever go that route at all.

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #88 on: January 01, 2017, 12:01:06 PM »
If you want a chuckle, read Larry Correia's take down of Laurie Gough  ;D

http://monsterhunternation.com/2016/12/30/fisking-the-huffpos-snooty-rant-about-self-publishing/


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #89 on: January 01, 2017, 12:15:54 PM »
Has anyone else gone to her website? In the HuffPo article, she insults all self-pubbed writers, but on her website, she offers them editing services...

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #90 on: January 01, 2017, 12:17:16 PM »
Has anyone else gone to her website? In the HuffPo article, she insults all self-pubbed writers, but on her website, she offers them editing services...

I hope she doesn't expect that to go very far. Yeesh.


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #91 on: January 01, 2017, 12:19:29 PM »
At some point the pile-on is going to feel like punching-down. If this were a blog post on her personal site I think we'd already be there...

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #92 on: January 01, 2017, 12:23:52 PM »
I hope she doesn't expect that to go very far. Yeesh.

Knowing that she offers editing services, I tend to think that she wrote that article trying to shame people into using her services. It was essentially a negative marketing ad, IMO.

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #93 on: January 01, 2017, 12:27:43 PM »
Knowing that she offers editing services, I tend to think that she wrote that article trying to shame people into using her services. It was essentially a negative marketing ad, IMO.

That's probably true. I'm glad the gatekeepers chose her book to help her into such an illustrious writing career that she can now afford to offer an additional service besides writing to make money. Yep.


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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #94 on: January 01, 2017, 12:28:35 PM »
The bad thing about this, is the writer of this article is also an editor.  I already see how this is going to potentially hurt her business.  Oh, and the comments are still hilarious.  I keep checking back in to read the additions and replies.

Ah, just saw this. I knew I couldn't have been the only one to notice it!  ;)

Offline Betsy the Quilter

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #95 on: January 01, 2017, 03:54:31 PM »
Folks,

This thread is starting to seem like piling on rather than a discussion of a news article.  We're discussing in the smoke-filled admin caves.  Unless someone can make a case for further thoughtful discussion of an issue, I don't see much point to leaving the thread open.

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Offline Word Fan

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #96 on: January 01, 2017, 06:00:23 PM »
Folks,

This thread is starting to seem like piling on rather than a discussion of a news article.  We're discussing in the smoke-filled admin caves.  Unless someone can make a case for further thoughtful discussion of an issue, I don't see much point to leaving the thread open.

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I agree. As my father would say, "It's time to p*ss on the fire, call in the dogs, and shut this one down."   :-[

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Re: HuffPo article take down of self-pubbers destroyed in comments
« Reply #97 on: January 01, 2017, 09:01:15 PM »
I agree. As my father would say, "It's time to p*ss on the fire, call in the dogs, and shut this one down."   :-[

Lol. Fitting final words.