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Author Topic: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly  (Read 6261 times)  

Offline HieroHero

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2017, 07:04:35 PM »
That's pretty terrible, glad you got your refund. Did any of the 743 people who did download your book leave a review?

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Offline benlovejoy

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2017, 01:56:59 AM »
Yes, did at least get some reviews.

Offline Joss

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2017, 02:21:36 AM »
I did a Books Butterfly promo a while back. I don't remember the details, but I know they didn't deliver the guaranteed sales they'd promised, nor did they wish to issue a refund.

In the end, I forced a refund through Paypal.

Don't use these guys.



edited to comply with forum decorum; PM if you have questions. -- Ann
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 05:31:49 AM by Ann in Arlington »

Offline Ann in Arlington

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2017, 03:49:31 AM »
LOL. Their defense is "we're incompetent, we keep poor records of our business dealings, and we have a 'pics or it didn't happen' policy regarding any agreement we make with you."

Sorry, Books Butterfly, but the attitude you've displayed on this forum, in various threads, is more than enough to convince me to never use you. Your whole business comes across as so unprofessional.

I think this is uncalled for.

It seems to me that the response here makes it clear that BooksButterfly has heard the complaints and has decided to try to act to fix things. You failed to quote part of his response:

Quote
It's a process issue, and we'll be working to improve that process so that mix-ups like this one don't happen again. I hope everyone will keep the bottom line in mind: We always honor the guarantee.

To do that is a bit misleading, no?

It's fine if you're still wary of the service and would prefer not to use it. I wouldn't even blame a person who'd used the service and received different treatment not to trust this response completely.

But, in this case, the OP ultimately did get what was agreed to, and ireaderreview has provided an explanation for what happened without threat, accusation, or defensiveness. His response here IS completely professional.

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Offline Pizzazz

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2017, 06:27:54 AM »
LOL. Their defense is "we're incompetent, we keep poor records of our business dealings, and we have a 'pics or it didn't happen' policy regarding any agreement we make with you."

Sorry, Books Butterfly, but the attitude you've displayed on this forum, in various threads, is more than enough to convince me to never use you. Your whole business comes across as so unprofessional.

I got the most unprofessional email I've ever seen from Books Butterfly.  So I will never use them again.  In addition, I, too, have not been impressed by the attitude I've seen from Books Butterfly in various threads here at KBoards. (Not just this one.)  So you're not alone in your opinion.

Offline Bards and Sages (Julie)

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2017, 09:30:52 AM »
In general, NO SERVICE can "guarantee" you a fixed number of downloads, sales, or reviews. Nobody. You cannot guarantee something you have no control over. And no service has control over who will or won't download something.

Now a service can tell you what their averages are if they maintain good records, and those averages can be very useful.

A service can "guarantee" your ad will be sent to X number of subscribers because they know how many subscribers they have.

A service cannot "guarantee" that those subscribers will download Y number of copies because if those subscribers are real people, the service can't control their actions.

Just as a general bit of advice, you should always pay close attention to people who offer guarantees on things outside their own control.

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Offline A.G.B

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2017, 09:41:28 AM »
In general, NO SERVICE can "guarantee" you a fixed number of downloads, sales, or reviews. Nobody. You cannot guarantee something you have no control over. And no service has control over who will or won't download something.

Now a service can tell you what their averages are if they maintain good records, and those averages can be very useful.

A service can "guarantee" your ad will be sent to X number of subscribers because they know how many subscribers they have.

A service cannot "guarantee" that those subscribers will download Y number of copies because if those subscribers are real people, the service can't control their actions.

Just as a general bit of advice, you should always pay close attention to people who offer guarantees on things outside their own control.

I agree in general, but i think in this case the 'guarantee' is more that if you don't sell as much as the figure they state, you get an in store credit (for want of a better term).

As far as I can tell, this is the only bit of their business which causes them trouble. I've used them before and they were good for me. I'm using them again in the summer.


Offline CEMartin2

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2017, 05:21:15 AM »
Great thread. Wish it had started before I threw away $100 to Books Butterfly.

My own experiment with them is ongoing at http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=249982.msg3480028#msg3480028

Long story short, Gold package guarantees 1200 downloads. Since I previously (2014) got 14,000 downloads in one day at Bookbub, I didn't bat an eye at that. By day 4 of my Books Butterfly promo, I have a whopping 256 downloads. While I admit it's entirely possibly to get 944 downloads today, day 5, I seriously doubt that's going to happen.

I'll also note that nowhere in the signup and pay process did I know that by having previously been a Bookbubber, or that the book is permafree, I was eliminated from a refund. I found that out in an email sent AFTER I paid. In fact, that email came in on April 17th, the same day my promo had already started.

I'm in agreement with the OP on this thread and so many commenters: writer beware.




edited; send Pm if you have questions -- Ann
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 05:30:45 AM by Ann in Arlington »

Offline Bill Hiatt

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2017, 06:40:48 AM »
In general, NO SERVICE can "guarantee" you a fixed number of downloads, sales, or reviews. Nobody. You cannot guarantee something you have no control over. And no service has control over who will or won't download something.

Now a service can tell you what their averages are if they maintain good records, and those averages can be very useful.

A service can "guarantee" your ad will be sent to X number of subscribers because they know how many subscribers they have.

A service cannot "guarantee" that those subscribers will download Y number of copies because if those subscribers are real people, the service can't control their actions.

Just as a general bit of advice, you should always pay close attention to people who offer guarantees on things outside their own control.
That's wonderful advice. It's especially true of review services. They can offer your book to their subscribers, but whether anyone chooses to review or not is a different story.


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Online ireaderreview

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2017, 11:00:25 AM »
What Mr. Barnett said:

***
I agree in general, but i think in this case the 'guarantee' is more that if you don't sell as much as the figure they state, you get an in store credit (for want of a better term).

As far as I can tell, this is the only bit of their business which causes them trouble. I've used them before and they were good for me. I'm using them again in the summer.
***


*******
Yes, EXACTLY. Thank you for clarifying this

Think of the guarantee as

We'll bring a lot of horses to the water. Based on past trends we know that 1,000 to 2,000 horses will drink. So we guarantee 1,200 horses will drink (free book downloads)
If the horses don't drink

We'll run it again FOR NO CHARGE and send more horses so you get to a total of 1,200+ horses that drink


That's the guarantee.

Get 50 to 100 Sales for Your $1 Book! Get 2,000 to 5,000+ Downloads for your Free Run Books! Get 200 to 400+ Sales for Your $1 Box Set!

Books Butterfly | Free Book Promotion | Paid Book Promotion

Applies to Following Genres: Mysteries, Thrillers, Suspense, Romance, Christian, Non-Fiction, How To, Cookbooks, SciFi Thrillers, Memoirs, Romantic Erotica, Steamy Romance.
Please Note: We also promote in other genres.


Offline CEMartin2

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2017, 11:13:48 AM »
*Unless it's a prior bookbub or is permafree. Fineprint you dont reveal at the time of ordering.

Offline SA_Soule

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2017, 06:06:14 PM »
Unfortunately Bookbub won't advertise some of us. I've probably applied 20 or 25 times with no success.

I agree with Harvey. I have tried so many times over the years that I doubt I'll ever get one.

Online ireaderreview

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2017, 09:32:57 AM »
1) THIS: Harvey Click on April 04, 2017, 12:47:22 PM
Unfortunately Bookbub won't advertise some of us. I've probably applied 20 or 25 times with no success.

I agree with Harvey. I have tried so many times over the years that I doubt I'll ever get one.

***************************************************
At Books Butterfly we believe that there have to be promotion sites that are willing to take risky books and new authors and unproven authors

Take more risks
Take a chance on new authors
See if this unproven author is going to be the big new thing

Readers agree. In Mar 2013 to Mar 2017 our reader base has grown 100 times. Precisely because we focus on New and Exciting and the Reward of finding the next great authors. That is what readers want - there are never enough great authors. Discovery is the main thing - connecting readers with authors

Every author starts with zero reviews
Every author starts with no idea of marketing and sales

***********************

2) At Books Butterfly, we curate and promote 300+ authors every day.
200+ of these are indie authors
100 or more each day are unproven indie authors
30-40% are sponsors. Rest are curated
*************************

In comparison to most other book promotion sites, we take any author we think is promising, even in cases where there is a real possibility of failure i.e. poor quality cover OR zero reviews OR genres are a royal mess

******************
This causes the unintended consequence that a small percentage of authors get upset at us, precisely because we took their book for its promise as opposed to its current sellability. They misattribute the book's lack of sellability to us

*****************************************

2) No prorated refund for books run with Bookbub. That's a subtle hint - If you're a Bookbub approved author you're not our target client. If your expectations are set by Bookbub's model of one ad a day to million+ readers in a genre, we're not a good fit for you

A disconcertingly large number of Bookbub authors want to run a free Bookbub, get 30,000 free book downloads, then run with us at $0.99 or at $0, and curse us if it doesn't hit the guaranteed figure. They disregard the fact that they just gave away 30,000 free book downloads and reduced the sales potential of the book

Kindly read the terms, get the hint, and let us promote authors who haven't just killed their books' results potential by sending it to 1 million readers as book of the day. Not to mention for free books an extended stay in the Top 100 list

**************************************

3) Yes, we have a lot of flaws

The one flaw we don't have is a lack of readers

We have 5 million readers

If you promote with us and your book misses you have two paths

Path 1: Assume your book is absolutely perfect. Tell other people Books Butterfly is a scam. Get temporary satisfaction. Don't improve your book's sellability

Path 2: Ask yourself - Why did my book not do well if it went out to so many readers? If I fix the sellability, is that going to help me every single day for the rest of my book's life, and in every future promotion? Does that mean I should focus on making my book better at selling?

Whatever makes you happy

************************


****************
For the OP - refund offer was done before thread was started. We didn't even know of this thread until the day we responded. Threads at KBoards are great as they help temper expectations. You just have to email us for refund and let us know context. That's enough

For CE Martin - results are low because you already promoted it to death with Bookbub in 2016, and because we already mentioned it twice as curated pick -
2016 - http://freebookdeals.com/2016/02/28/excellent-free-christian-romance-2-1-usa-today-bestselling-authors-100-free-kindle-books-10-excellent-kindle-book-deals/
2013 - http://freebookdeals.com/2013/10/02/133-free-kindle-books-for-wednesday-52-kindle-book-deals-oct-2nd/

If you don't like terms you can email us and we cancel promotion. You can't make up your own terms in your head, never email us, and then claim we are dishonest
*******************************

Authors, this is a Tragedy of the Commons type of situation

Every promotion site starts off with great hopes of helping lots of authors
Then they get a kick in the guts from some author misattributing things. Then a few more punches and kicks. Then they decide to punish Every new author because 1% or 2% of new authors blame them for the performance of books which only the author can make more sellable

We are stubborn as mules. So we aren't going to let 1 or 2% of authors scare us into turning away every new author

Temporary satisfaction of saying 'My book is perfect and it's Books Butterfly's fault my book promotion didn't go well. I'm above using the prorated refund in store credit' is not worth it

Much better to understand WHY the promotion didn't go well, do fixes, and benefit ever after

**************

Biggest thing is

If you take 100% responsibility for your book's sales, and look at every way of improving your book and its sellability, you will keep doing better
If you keep giving away that power to extrinsic things, then you won't do as well

No one other than you can make your book a success. All your tools (and that's what promotion sites are) are powerless until you wield them in your hands. All the power, literally and figuratively and metaphorically, is in your hands

Get 50 to 100 Sales for Your $1 Book! Get 2,000 to 5,000+ Downloads for your Free Run Books! Get 200 to 400+ Sales for Your $1 Box Set!

Books Butterfly | Free Book Promotion | Paid Book Promotion

Applies to Following Genres: Mysteries, Thrillers, Suspense, Romance, Christian, Non-Fiction, How To, Cookbooks, SciFi Thrillers, Memoirs, Romantic Erotica, Steamy Romance.
Please Note: We also promote in other genres.


Offline benlovejoy

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2017, 11:26:26 AM »
Wow. I had kept some things back, but as you have now publicly demonstrated just how unprofessional you are, I will share the rest of the story.

I first contacted Books Butterfly on the second day of the promo to say this:

Hi,

Just checking on in this, as its only seen 317 downloads so far

Ben


That email was completely ignored.

When the promo ended, I wrote a polite, calm email advising the results and requesting the pro-rata refund. I could have ranted at the fact that a promo slot had been wasted, that the company didn't respond before, that a launch opportunity is a one-off, etc, but I didn't What I sent was this:

Hi Abhishek,

So, this was a hugely disappointing experience. Of the 5000 downloads guaranteed, it saw only 743 and that is crediting your promo with 100% of the downloads during this period. Ive attached a screengrab.

This means you delivered 14.86% of the promised number, making the pro-rata fee $59.44.

A refund of the balance of $340.56 is due.

Please refund this to Paypal by the end of the week.

Thanks,

Ben


There was no blame, not even a complaint.

You know what came next a refusal to refund. When they did finally do so, it was with ill grace and a very lengthy rant about how it wasn't their fault and they couldn't keep track of all their customer emails, etc, etc.

I then got a second lengthy email ranting about this thread, and then a third one of about a dozen paragraphs. I decided life was too short and left it at that. I had no intention of posting further in this thread what was done was done. But given that the post above gives an impression which is as insulting as it is misleading, I am now doing so.

Offline WriterRon

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2017, 11:43:23 AM »
Quote from Books Butterfly:

" Yes, we have a lot of flaws

The one flaw we don't have is a lack of readers

We have 5 million readers"

You make a lot of claims, Books Butterfly. Now explain how you have 5 million readers? 


Offline RaBrant

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2017, 02:39:42 PM »
I did a Books Butterfly promotion for $100 at the end of February for one of my books. I received about 1,000 downloads on Amazon from the promotion and some on the other retailers, so I feel like they fulfilled their end of the deal. It is interesting to note that most of the downloads came on day FOUR of the promotion.

But then I did a promotion at another site for 40 bucks (ENT, I believe) and received 1700 in a day on Amazon and some on other retailers. But it was a different book that has never had a BookBub advertisement before. I

My question. What do you feel is a good ROI? How many free books downloaded makes you happy for 10, 40, 100? Obviously, there needs to be other ways than BookBub since with one title I can haven't been able to get a BookBub in a year, while they almost always accept another series I have under a pen name.


Offline TaraCrescent

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2017, 02:50:38 PM »
I did a Books Butterfly promotion for $100 at the end of February for one of my books. I received about 1,000 downloads on Amazon from the promotion and some on the other retailers, so I feel like they fulfilled their end of the deal. It is interesting to note that most of the downloads came on day FOUR of the promotion.

But then I did a promotion at another site for 40 bucks (ENT, I believe) and received 1700 in a day on Amazon and some on other retailers. But it was a different book that has never had a BookBub advertisement before. I

My question. What do you feel is a good ROI? How many free books downloaded makes you happy for 10, 40, 100? Obviously, there needs to be other ways than BookBub since with one title I can haven't been able to get a BookBub in a year, while they almost always accept another series I have under a pen name.


I personally expect 10 downloads minimum per dollar spent. If a site can't deliver that, then I take it off the rotation. Bookbub does light-years better than that; Freebooksy seems to deliver about 15-17 downloads per dollar spent for my books.

Offline RaBrant

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2017, 03:03:59 PM »
Are you talking FREE book downloads or 99 cents?

Offline HopelessFanatic

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2017, 03:48:44 PM »

Authors, this is a Tragedy of the Commons type of situation

Every promotion site starts off with great hopes of helping lots of authors
Then they get a kick in the guts from some author misattributing things. Then a few more punches and kicks. Then they decide to punish Every new author because 1% or 2% of new authors blame them for the performance of books which only the author can make more sellable

We are stubborn as mules. So we aren't going to let 1 or 2% of authors scare us into turning away every new author

Temporary satisfaction of saying 'My book is perfect and it's Books Butterfly's fault my book promotion didn't go well. I'm above using the prorated refund in store credit' is not worth it

Much better to understand WHY the promotion didn't go well, do fixes, and benefit ever after

**************

Biggest thing is

If you take 100% responsibility for your book's sales, and look at every way of improving your book and its sellability, you will keep doing better
If you keep giving away that power to extrinsic things, then you won't do as well

No one other than you can make your book a success. All your tools (and that's what promotion sites are) are powerless until you wield them in your hands. All the power, literally and figuratively and metaphorically, is in your hands

I find it both funny and sad that every time one of these threads pops up, you harp on author's taking responsibility for their dismal results with your promotional services and yet I have never, ever seen you take responsibility for anything. It's always 100% someone else's fault. Don't tell people to take responsibility when you won't do the same. It looks really disengenious.

And before you claim I'm a disgruntled former client or out to get you or something, I've never used your services. I've simply observed how you've spoken to people here. Your promos could be the greatest thing since Bookbub, I don't know. It just rubs me the wrong way to tell people to do something that you won't even do.

Offline JRTomlin

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2017, 04:28:54 PM »
I guess, but it feels like continuing after a dozen refusals is failing to take the hint ...
I've known people who got one after more refusals than that. As a matter of fact for some reason after having had a lot of BB ads, I had 8 refusals in a row. Now I have had two acceptances in a row. No, I can't explain it, but it costs nothing except a few seconds, so why not try?

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Offline Imogen Rose

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2017, 04:51:23 PM »
Glad to hear it.

Offline TaraCrescent

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2017, 05:47:34 PM »
Are you talking FREE book downloads or 99 cents?

Free.

Offline ShaneJeffery

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2017, 05:57:48 PM »
Books Butterfly website design is enough to keep me away.

Offline RedAlert

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2017, 12:19:19 PM »
The OP stated that he received his refund after the company made him agree to never use their services again.  This is what companies do to sever relationships with problem customers who are so annoying that, just to shut them up, they are given refunds, as long as they agree to go away forever.

Most of this thread has to do with bad business-bad blood comments that you can read and file away.  But, when I read what the company allegedly said to the OP, it really gave me such a negative feeling.  You just don't do that.  It really sends up a big, red flag about doing business with someone who would treat you like an enemy just because you stood up for yourself.  What a shame.

Offline josielitton

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Re: An important heads-up regarding Books Butterfly
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2017, 01:02:57 PM »
Books Butterfly website design is enough to keep me away.

Okay, I bit, went and took a look. My eyes, my eyes!

On a more serious note, there is one word that should make every potential customer turn and run from any promotion site: Guaranteed. With or without the a fig-leaf asterisk.