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5K views 47 replies 23 participants last post by  Shelley K 
#1 ·
Hey guys!
I've just had an especially poor result at Amazon after a really well prepared promotion.
The page for my book currently shows it's rated at 27 in one of its two main categories of Sc-fi.
The problem is that my Amazon dashboard shows a very unremarkable number of just 17 free downloads
for yesterday and about 11 for today. That's even less than I would normally expect to get for a very poorly prepared promo.
I've just started on facebook, and expected a lot more.
The last promo got the book about 125 downloads, and I didn't end up getting any positive movement on Amazon afterwards.
To the contrary, it just kept sliding away in the ratings.
I have also been runnng 2 promos over the last 2 days, and both books supposedly had achieved more downloads on their own
than the dashboard shows for the total.
I wonder if anyone else is having these problems lately. Am I just expected to accept that these are the poor results we can all expect nowadays?
 
#2 ·
Wouldn't it be nice if a well-prepared promotion ALWAYS translated into sales? Having said that, last week I had sales drop from the best two-day marathon ever to zero the following day for absolutely no reason. They did climb after a couple of days of no activity. Dashboard reporting is not live and they also appear to adjust daily numbers using Pacific time, leading to skewed short-term dynamics if you are in a different time zone like me.
 
#3 ·
It depends what you mean by a really well-prepared promotion. If you were focusing all your efforts on Facebook, it is notorious for being a bit unpredictable. You might want to post the sort of values you were using so that the FB gurus can advise.

If you were using other ad channels, then again, post some details here so that the experts can offer suggestions for a better result next time. I get the best results with paid sites like RobinReads, FreeBooksy, Booksends, BookBarbarian, ENT, etc. They get me 1K-4K downloads, depending on genre, and that gives me a good tail that usually lasts for 3 weeks or more.

You won't see much follow-through with 125 downloads - most free downloads are never read, so to acquire a reasonable number of new readers, you need thousands of downloads.
 
#4 ·
Of course I'm aware of the places you just recommended.
The problem is that you can't approach most of those places nowadays without reviews.
And there's the catch 22!
Since you can only expect to get one honest review per thousand downloads, it leaves no way to ever get noticed.
The point I was trying to make, is how on earth do you get a ranking of an Amazon Best Sellers Rank of 8,911 and rank 27
in that book's category with just 28 downloads?
I think they just confused the number of downloads it got with the other book I had on promotion at the same time, but
it looks like it might get ignored again for a second time.
I have actually published a few other books with Amazon, so I know how the book is supposed to progress.
No offence intended, but I think that many writers who have already made their place in this industry have no idea how
difficult it has become for those who came in a bit late.
I've had 5 books published for the last 7 or 8 months now, and haven't been able to get a single review for any of them.
This I believe to be a result of Amazon's rule change which was sometime around last October.
I don't blame Amazon for this because something had to be done about the problems at that time, but it hit me after spending months
compiling a list of potential reviewers.
 
#5 ·
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#6 ·
The only problem with much of what I've heard so far is that it would have made more sense a few years ago.
The cover on the book you mentioned is actually an improvement on my first book, but by using these same promotion methods I've managed to get that first book to between a ranking of 150,000 to 300,000.
Going by my experience with that first book taught me what to expect! It certainly should have shown some improvement.
But all of this doesn't answer those things I mentioned before.
Without reviews, an independent isn't going to get anywhere in the industry of today, and you can't put your book in front of enough people to get
those reviews in the first place. Hell, you can't even pay somebody to advertize your books without those reviews.
Basically, the cover, blurb etc are completely irrelevant if you don't have the reviews to begin with!
Am I the only one who can see a pattern forming here?
 
#7 ·
hgburn77 said:
Of course I'm aware of the places you just recommended. The problem is that you can't approach most of those places nowadays without reviews. And there's the catch 22! Since you can only expect to get one honest review per thousand downloads, it leaves no way to ever get noticed. [...] I've had 5 books published for the last 7 or 8 months now, and haven't been able to get a single review for any of them.
Reviews are always problematic, and you're right that it's harder than ever to get them. However, it's not an insoluble problem.

There are plenty of ad sites that either don't care about number of reviews, or have a special new release category. It's worth reading the small print on the submission requirements carefully, because it's surprising how many you can find when you look.

As for getting reviews, I still struggle with this, but I've now started two pen names in different genres and had to build from the ground up, so I can tell you it IS possible, even for those of us who aren't mega-sellers. I get reviews through my mailing list. With each pen name, I started with just a handful of people. I offer ARCs to anyone on the list who wants one. I remind them to post their review around release time, and sometimes I put out a general plea to the whole mailing list to post a review. With each successive book, the mailing list grows, the number of people requesting ARCs grows and the number of reviews grows. It's a slow process, but it works.

I don't know whether you came here looking for advice. Maybe you just wanted to vent about the unfairness of the world, and that's perfectly fine. Vent away! But if you really want to know how to improve your sales and get reviews, this is the place to ask. Post your covers/blurb/book history and ask the experts here what to do. And they'll tell you, sometimes in a hundred contradictory ways, but you'll have lots of actionable ideas to sort through. IF that's what you want. Whatever you decide to do, I wish you good fortune.
 
#8 ·
To quote the Smiths, "You just haven't earned it yet, baby."

This is not a career for people to have instant success. The ones who do succeed on their first or second book are very, very rare. My advice would be to keep working on the craft, keep producing new work, and make sure your product is always as professional as it can be.
 
#9 ·
As both MonkishScribe and Pauline have suggested, success for indie writers is typically a slow build-up. I've been in the same place you are, wondering how to kick slow-moving sales into something more substantial. My sales have increased over time, but only very gradually. Barring a lightning strike, it takes time.

It is true that having more reviews gives you more promotional options, but there are ways to stimulate the posting of reviews. For example, there are FB groups (and I understand Goodreads groups as well, but I haven't tried that route) dedicated to putting authors willing to give a free copy in exchange for an honest review together with readers willing to write reviews. The pool of potential reviewers has diminished. With the $50 purchase requirement on Amazon, a lot of the people on tight budgets who wanted to be ARC readers or other kinds of reviewers to get access to a lot of free book don't spend much on Amazon. On the other hand, Amazon has about 108 million US customers, and the average customer spends far more than $50. Probably a significant part of that number are readers who might be willing to leave reviews.

There are also companies that will facilitate the connection between authors and readers, those typically charge something. As long as the fee goes to the company and not to the reviewers, that's legal under FTC rules and conforms with Amazon's TOS as long as the reviewer mentions in the review having received the free copy. However, look at any such companies very carefully. If they imply all the reviews will be good, run away. If they guarantee a specific number of reviews, run away. A company operating within the rules can't really do more than estimate the number of reviews you might get, and it certainly can't know whether they'll be good or bad. Choosy Bookworm's Read and Review program is one example of a company that follows the rules very carefully. I believe I saw a thread on here just yesterday by a veteran poster who now offers that kind of facilitation, maybe even for free (I didn't look closely.)
 
#11 ·
And here's a list of book bloggers willing to review indie authors: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,232943.0.html

(Kboards is a gold mine of information if you have the time to look.)

It goes without saying you should make sure your book is in the best condition it can be before asking for reviews. In an ideal world, you'd have beta readers to help work the kinks out, and most people could also benefit from at least one pass by a professional editor. (I'm making a general observation. I haven't looked at your books.) I made the mistake with my first release of relying on myself to be the sole proofreader. Even though I had many years of experience as a high school English teacher, I missed quite a lot. (The brain autocorrects, so that we often read what should be there, not what actually is.) I eventually got that professional editing, but my first book would have done better if I had done the editing first. (Duh!) I was lucky not to get nailed by the early reviewers for some of those mechanical issues, but many people aren't so lucky. "A mistake is temporary and can be easily fixed--but a bad review is forever."
 
#12 ·
A promotion of any kind or expense only gets the reader to the blurb. If your blurb doesn't hook them, then your sunk.
 
#13 ·
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#14 ·
hgburn77 said:
The only problem with much of what I've heard so far is that it would have made more sense a few years ago.
The cover on the book you mentioned is actually an improvement on my first book, but by using these same promotion methods I've managed to get that first book to between a ranking of 150,000 to 300,000.
Going by my experience with that first book taught me what to expect! It certainly should have shown some improvement.
But all of this doesn't answer those things I mentioned before.
Without reviews, an independent isn't going to get anywhere in the industry of today, and you can't put your book in front of enough people to get
those reviews in the first place. Hell, you can't even pay somebody to advertize your books without those reviews.
Basically, the cover, blurb etc are completely irrelevant if you don't have the reviews to begin with!
Am I the only one who can see a pattern forming here?
No, cover and blurb really are key. When you first publish, you get a brief window of visibility on the new release lists. If you have an excellent (meaning, both striking and 100% genre-appropriate) cover and a terrific blurb and price well, people will try out the book, especially if they can borrow it through KU. Despite how overloaded the Kindle store seems, avid readers are out there looking for new authors. Once a few dozen paying customers try the book, some will review, and those who are very enthusiastic may recommend to friends. At that point, the story and its fit in its genre will either give the book some legs, or not. (ETA: A great cover and blurb won't help in the long run if the story's weak or doesn't fit its genre, so it's good to make sure the product is good before plowing $$$ into the packaging.)

Cover and blurb (helped along by KU) are what get the above process going. For an example of a new author who caught this wave right out of the gate, see Izzy Shows. If you miss the wave, it doesn't mean the book can't find its stride, but it is less likely and a quite a bit harder.

It's true that those of us who started all our pen names early didn't experience starting fresh in today's hyper-competitive environment, but we do have the advantage of having observed the market develop over the course of years and having watched dozens of new authors appear on the forum and either succeed quickly or enter long-slog terrain. A large majority of the succeed-quickly folks have very strong covers and blurbs going for them, as well as a hooky and genre-typical story. Even with those advantages, though, succeeding quickly is sadly rare.
 
#15 ·
PhoenixS said:
ETA: I just did a quick search and can now see which book you were promoting. After seeing its cover, blurb, current rank and lack of alsobot status, my unsolicited suggestion is to first concentrate on the core marketing of cover and blurb before attempting to pitch the book with more ads...


This ^

I also did a bit of digging. Don't throw more money at advertising when the cover/blurb/look inside are going to put people off from clicking. Indie publishing has moved on from where it was a few years ago. Readers are savvy and have higher expectations. They are spoiled for choice with 5 million ebooks on Amazon and you need a polished, professional product to attract readers.
 
#17 ·
hgburn77 said:
Basically, the cover, blurb etc are completely irrelevant if you don't have the reviews to begin with!
SMH. Did a bit of a face plant when I read this and was ready to address, but I'm happy to see others have!

That is some seriously erroneous thinking. Ironically, one could say that your cover and blurb are more important than your story. They are the gateway to your book. Have a crappy cover/blurb and you are essentially locking the gate. If you have a compelling cover/blurb, lack of reviews in irrelevant. If you're cover/blurb are compelling enough, even bad reviews can irrelevant to some extent.
 
#18 ·
hgburn77 said:
The only problem with much of what I've heard so far is that it would have made more sense a few years ago.
The cover on the book you mentioned is actually an improvement on my first book, but by using these same promotion methods I've managed to get that first book to between a ranking of 150,000 to 300,000.
Going by my experience with that first book taught me what to expect! It certainly should have shown some improvement.
But all of this doesn't answer those things I mentioned before.
Without reviews, an independent isn't going to get anywhere in the industry of today, and you can't put your book in front of enough people to get
those reviews in the first place. Hell, you can't even pay somebody to advertize your books without those reviews.
Basically, the cover, blurb etc are completely irrelevant if you don't have the reviews to begin with!
Am I the only one who can see a pattern forming here?
You received some great advice from Phoenix Sullivan, and if anyone can spot a pattern, it's Phoenix. She's a data guru. Your cover could use improvement. I think if you just took the floating head out, it would improve it quite a bit. And then tighten the blurb, and personally, I wouldn't put review-ish copy in there at the end. Save that for the editorial review section.
 
#19 ·
First of all I'd like to thank those people who responded with answers, but I believe you really don't appreciate what I was asking.
It's my own fault because I should have been more specific.
I just wanted to hear from other new authors who could possibly understand what I've been up against.
Of course I'm aware that 100,000 to 300,000 isn't a good rank, but it does show that a person can make some forward motion
on Amazon by consistently submitting to the freely available sites.
It's also the reason I got onto Facebook. I wasn't expecting miracles, but just to see where it might lead since I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel yet.
I'm probably not in a very good genre which also doesn't help my chances.
But I repeat what I said before!
Providing that the cover and blurb are sufficient for the job, it's really the lack of reviews up front that gets in the way.
The reason I say this is because a lack of reviews is the one consistent thing that the big advertizers all have in common.
Even ENT presents you with a loaded question when you are filling out the form.
They ask if you are anyone famous or have any other known books etc.
It's really just a round about way of saying that if you are an unknown without any reviews, then needn't apply.
They do mention in the application instructions that reviews are heavily taken into account, but don't specify what that criteria
is. It's just a new speak way of saying that if you aren't somebody famous or already on their list, then you don't have a hope in hell.
It's a form of discrimination which is a bit like the movie Gattaca.
In the movie the young guy goes into a job interview full of hope until they pull out the blood test for him to take.
At that moment he knows that he doesn't stand a chance.
Why? Because he isn't part of the accepted club.
I actually don't blame these big businesses for what they're doing because we can't honesty expect anything else from them.
They're in business to make money and it's simpler and more cost effective to stick with the people they already know.
As for the quality of my writing.
In the time I've been doing this I've had little feedback about my work, but I have received two unrelated and unsolicited
comments.
The first said, "It's just so easy to read," while the second simply said it was well written.
As a defense mechanism, the whole industry has closed ranks now, and it's the very new authors who are paying the price.
As for the well meant comment about the review forum here, I can say that I've already looked in that direction.
As I recall, I was scared away by the sound of crickets in the background.
I'm still hopeful for now, and perhaps Facebook will open up some more opportunities.
Thanks again for all the well intentioned comments, but I think you'd have to be a new author of today to understand what I'm talking about.


 
#20 ·
hgburn77, it occurs to me that we do have a new-author support thread floating around: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,220808.0.html. It's been a few months since I last saw it pop up, but perhaps if you revive it, it'll help you get in contact with other new authors to share strategies and support.

Honestly, we do understand about the review/promo thing. It's a bit like getting your first job right out of college: no one wants to hire you because you don't have any experience, but you can't get experience until someone hires you. Very frustrating! You just have to find some way to break through that closed circle of no-thanks. Until you do, it feels like pounding your head against a brick wall.
 
#21 ·
hgburn77 said:
...it's really the lack of reviews up front that gets in the way.
No, that's simply not true. Reviews are the end result that happen once you have a cover that grabs a reader's attention and then a blurb that makes them click. When I'm browsing book bargains, you don't even see reviews (until you go to a book page). I scroll until a cover jumps out at me then I read the blurb. Lack of reviews aren't hindering your sales - cover/blurb/sample are. I sold 1,000 copies of my first book in the first month with ZERO reviews. I did research my genre, had a cover that conveyed the genre and ensured my blurb caught a reader's attention.

There are plenty of advertisers that take new releases with no reviews. You start small and gradually climb that ladder BUT if cover/blurb/sample aren't doing their job, no amount of advertising is going to help. Fix the product first, then reviews will be an organic result of sales. Although I get the feeling you want to be told that advertiser X will magically fix your sales, as opposed to digging into the product?

hgburn77 said:
As for the quality of my writing. In the time I've been doing this I've had little feedback about my work...
This ^ feels like the real crux of the issue. I get the impression you are looking for reviews to provide you with feedback and that's not their purpose. A writer seeks feedback from critique partners, beta readers and their editor *before* they publish. Did you read/research your chosen genre and understand tropes and reader expectations before you published? Or did you write what you wanted with no regard to the market, publish with little/no feedback and you're now pondering why it's not selling?
 
#23 ·
No, that's simply not true. Reviews are the end result that happen once you have a cover that grabs a reader's attention and then a blurb that makes them click.
In reply to the last person who is still getting the cart before the horse.
How on earth can I get my books out there for people to click on the cover, if the only ebook companies who can offer you the chance won't
let you in for lack of reviews.
It really is therefore the reviews that count the most, otherwise I won't even get the chance to find out.
This ^ feels like the real crux of the issue. I get the impression you are looking for reviews to provide you with feedback and that's not their purpose.
Wrong again! I don't actually feel the need for that kind of feedback, and over the last 2 years have researched the whole subject very thoroughly.
I was simply attempting to answer somebody else's statement, and reached for the only information I had at hand.
I personally believe that my work is quite good and would appeal to certain readers.
While leaning upon my meager life savings, it took me more than a year to write my first novel.
I must have edited it dozens of times, and my second book took me only six months to write.
The third only took three months.
Since then I've gone on to write two sizable books of more than 40,000 words each, and my fiction writing skills have increased in leaps
and bounds throughout the whole process. I've also gone back over my work and edited it again.
Right now I seriously doubt that anyone short of a twenty year editor would have any complaints about them.
As far as I'm concerned, my writing skills really aren't in question.
Obviously my books aren't perfect, but I'm very satisfied with the result.
 
#24 ·
Every successful author I know is pretty hard-nosed and perfectionistic about looking at what is working and not, and then making adjustments. Did a book not perform as well as usual? Why not? Cover, blurb, tone, subgenre, characters? If you're not willing to take a hard look and see where you need to improve, you will not succeed. You take risks, sure, and some don't pan out, but you learn those lessons and apply them so you don't make the same mistakes again.

Your problem is not lack of reviews. You can get better, but only if you're willing/able to be honest with yourself. What good does it do not to? It just stops you from getting ahead. It's not Amazon's fault. It's not readers' fault. It's not promo sites' fault. And even if it were--you can't change them. You can only improve on what YOU do.

Look at it as getting a shocker D on the midterm in college. If you don't pass the course, your parents or your scholarship will pull the money for next semester. You'd better find out what you messed up on and fix it. Get some tutoring, start typing your notes every night (I did this. Every single class in undergrad and business school. Single biggest key to my success)--whatever you have to do to pass that class.

It's not going to get better by wishing or blaming something else--anything else except the things under your control.

If you want a job where you show up, do things A to Z, and get paid--that's not writing novels. That's not how it works. This business, trad, indie, or hybrid, is entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurs have to be honest about their results or they fail. 
 
#25 ·
hgburn77 said:
In reply to the last person who is still getting the cart before the horse.
How on earth can I get my books out there for people to click on the cover, if the only ebook companies who can offer you the chance won't
let you in for lack of reviews.
Because you're ignoring the part of my post where I said there are smaller advertisers that take new releases with no reviews. That's what I used for the initial boost to visibility. Then if you have the cover/blurb/sample doing its job, readers will take a punt on a new author with no reviews. If no one is taking a chance on your book, then you have a problem. You either keep throwing money at advertising or you dig deep and figure out what is stopping readers from clicking on your cover. That's the bit you don't seem to understand, number of reviews are irrelevant if readers don't even click through to your book page. Your cover isn't doing it's job if no one is clicking on it.

hgburn77 said:
Obviously my books aren't perfect, but I'm very satisfied with the result.
Except you're not. You started this thread to lament your promo results and the fact no one is reading/reviewing your book, which implies there *is* a problem. Despite the fact you are spending money advertising, no one is clicking through. You've had suggestions about what to look at, (personally it took me less than 30 seconds to figure out the main issue) but again it seems you want some easy answer, like a magic advertiser to use, as opposed to doing the hard work to polish your product.
 
#26 ·
hgburn77 said:
I personally believe that my work is quite good and would appeal to certain readers.
While leaning upon my meager life savings, it took me more than a year to write my first novel.
I must have edited it dozens of times, and my second book took me only six months to write.
The third only took three months.
Since then I've gone on to write two sizable books of more than 40,000 words each, and my fiction writing skills have increased in leaps
and bounds throughout the whole process. I've also gone back over my work and edited it again.
Right now I seriously doubt that anyone short of a twenty year editor would have any complaints about them.
As far as I'm concerned, my writing skills really aren't in question.
Obviously my books aren't perfect, but I'm very satisfied with the result.
Folks, I think it's clear that hgburn77 is not looking for feedback on their books. That's their choice, and we should respect it, in accord with the KB ethos of not giving unsolicited feedback. If they change their mind, they can always ask.

hgburn77, as AliceW mentioned, there are promo sites that accept books with no reviews, especially if they're new releases. Check out this thread, where quite a few such sites are listed: https://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=224050.0 Best of luck. :)
 
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