Author Topic: Box set scams on Passive Voice  (Read 81210 times)  

Offline wheart

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1375 on: May 07, 2017, 07:38:32 PM »
I'm so sorry that while I was battling depression, the loss of my dad and the onslaught of abuse from Rebecca's followers I didn't think I must screen shot all this so that in a year's time I can try and convince some anonymous person on the internet that bullying happens. I'm so sorry I can't serve up a blow by blow account of my victimisation for you to dissect in Rebecca's secret groups, so you can all highlight exactly what I did wrong to deserve it all. You see at the time, I shut down emotionally, deactivated my account and it took all my energy to keep going and not think how easy it would to make it all go away by killing myself, because you are quite right - it must have all been my fault.

You also conveniently skip over the one major point here in all your finger pointing at the victims - only ONE person is taking people's money.

But sure, let's blame me. I must have deserved it. Thanks so much for reminding me why I chose to keep quiet in the first place. I'm done.

I'm not blaming you, Tilly. I am so sorry for how the matter had affected you. Truly :(

Offline spellscribe

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1376 on: May 07, 2017, 07:39:28 PM »
I assume everyone who thinks it's wrong to share first hand experiences and collected evidence here is also wrong to, for example, discuss Tait publishing? That no one should have stood up and said 'don't use them' because that sort of thing belongs in a court of law, and advising your colleagues that it may not be above board is 'not an adult way of handling things'? And that if a colleague discussed their plan to use Tait, that despite you knowing or having heard there were well documented issues with their service, that you would not hold yourself at all  culpable by staying silent and watching your colleague lose thousands because that's what adults do?

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Offline Markus Croft

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1377 on: May 07, 2017, 07:40:20 PM »
When it's a legal matter like this, I absolutely would say yes.  There's nothing to be gained from this back and forth anymore.  It's already been stated it's going to court.

This thread is about more than Christina... have you read the whole thing? Not to be snarky, just wouldn't blame anyone who didn't. I did and it's taken a lot of time to do so.

At this point, it's already been stated a lawsuit is pending, so not sure why that matters now :)  When it starts messing with other people's careers because they are doing business with a vendor that other people don't like, I think yes it should be handled in a better manner than a public forum.

Okay... so one segment of the indie population should be quiet because another segment of the indie population thinks what they're saying will damage them maybe going forward? Hmmm... Again, this isn't just about Christina. People in this thread have shared tangible first hand accounts, screenshots of bullying, and other questionable behavior that has already effected them. What better manner than this would help indie authors just starting out make decisions about how they want to conduct themselves professionally? Isn't this community about listening to and helping each other...?

but crucifying people that don't share your opinion?  Absolutely not. Kindle Boards used to be a great place to talk about the industry and new works, now it's little more than a boxing ring with people going at each other's throats.

I haven't seen anyone crucified... I've seen heated arguments, but what would you expect when lots of people have skin in the game?

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1378 on: May 07, 2017, 07:42:08 PM »
So, for those people who are "anti-RH" what is your end goal? What would make you happy?

I'm not anti-Rebecca. I'm against her business practices. I don't know her personally.

Last year, I joined one of her box sets with several other colleagues. She friend-requested us and added us to the box set group on Facebook. There were no contracts yet; the box set was just being put together. During the first few days, she posted within the group tossing around suggestions and questions. In one of her posts, she asked for cover designer recommendations. This box set was in a genre she hadn't launched a box set in before; previously she'd only launched UF sets. Several participants posted suggestions. One of my colleagues made a recommendation, too, and shared a sample cover design and the designer's rates. Rather than just saying something like "Thank you, but that isn't what I'm looking for," Rebecca made some negative statements about the design. Things like that are subjective, sure, but it only escalated. She said that she would never pay that much money for something so plain and awful -- not a direct quote, but that was the gist.

It didn't end there. My colleague replied with something like, "No worries," but Rebecca continued to leave multiple comments telling her how terrible the cover was. It was odd because Rebecca had been the one asking for recommendations. A simple "No thank you" would have sufficed. I watched all of this unfold in real time. My colleague messaged Rebecca and told her that she'd made her feel uncomfortable and that she would like to withdraw her book from the set.

Meanwhile, Rebecca began posting on her own personal, public Facebook account, naming my colleague there and within the group, saying that my colleague wanted to ditch her spot and miss out on thousands of dollars all because Rebecca didn't like her designer. It made me uncomfortable because that wasn't true, and shouldn't have been discussed outside the group. I commented saying that I found the public posts to be unprofessional.

Rebecca continued to PM and harass my colleague until my colleague blocked her. I commented on the original post in the group saying that I, too, was withdrawing my book from the set. Then I blocked Rebecca and left the group before I started seeing my name all over her wall.

I would like to see her change the way she interacts with the authors she claims she is trying to help. There was some question of ethics on Goodreads several years back that resulted in her being banned from that site. While I have personal experience with her there, too, I don't think it's relevant to the discussion now. However, there is certainly a pattern of behavior here and too many complaints against her business to ignore. I'm glad my colleague and I withdrew from the box set when we did, because it seems that it could have been worse.

As I've said before, I have no negative opinions of those who continue to work with her; I have several colleagues who have had wonderful experiences with her and I continue to have relationships with them. I would only remove myself from those who engage in the same unprofessional behavior. I know that I will not work with her again, and I made that decision last year. I don't think the discussion here is harmful to her business; her own practices and those of her PAs have been harmful to her business.

I think much of the discussion here has been helpful to the community when it comes to discerning unethical practices, what to look for in services, etc. I haven't seen anyone attack Rebecca personally, questioning her mental health, for example, but I'm aware that these things could certainly be happening off this forum. I come to Kboards to better myself as a self-publisher. I speak here tonight because my experiences with Rebecca left me feeling as if it'd be better to keep my mouth shut beyond my "This is unprofessional, and I'm withdrawing my book" comment; seeing these practices discussed was a relief to me because for quite some time my colleague and I thought we were the only ones.

To me, my career is not worth standing by while a colleague is belittled. I'm glad that I spoke up, I'm glad that I walked away from a box set that may or may not have made me "thousands."

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Offline Susanne123

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1379 on: May 07, 2017, 07:44:14 PM »
I barely found the cojones to make one post, but here I am, making two.

I am not going to address the overall issues. I stated my piece before.

But I wanted to talk about Tilly's post. I believe her. I'll tell you why. Because I have been a long time member of Kboards. Don't post a lot, do read a lot. I've read a lot from Tilly. I like the way she presents herself online. She presents as genuine, and real, and like many on these boards, gives it straight with a tad of diplomacy.

I like Monique for the same reason. I don't always agree with either, but I have never found them to be hateful, or unwilling to stand up for themselves, or what they believe in. And I've seen them be fair, even in the midst of a heated disagreement.

It comes down to patterns. I have seen the pattern of how these two members have presented themselves over the years. They still ring consistently honest.

If you haven't been a member, well, I can see where you would not see that. But to require "proof" of some sort? Like what, screenshots? I've seen a megaton of screenshots since this all began, more than I want to see ever again in my life. I see patterns there, too. I saw them before, while my set was going, and at that point, I decided I would fulfill my obligation, and then do no more business, because the pattern I was seeing was not what I wanted to be part of.

When you break up in business, there is a calm and kind way to do it, even with disputes. I've ended two businesses. I'm friendly with both my former partners.

When I see patterns that are otherwise, they are hard to refute. That may not be true for everyone. Not everyone does business the same way. But I know what I've seen, and how it made me feel.

And I "know" of the people who are now speaking out, and what my thoughts have been on them given the patterns they have presented.

It's all subjective. But Tilly, Monique, Silly, SadA, Lurking - I believe you. And I am so, so sorry.

Thank you for posting. At some point, it becomes a balance of probabilities. Did something happen? Look at the history. Like you, I've rarely posted, but I do know the consistency of the truth when I see/read it. I also believe these women.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 07:46:16 PM by Susanne123 »

Offline Wayne Stinnett

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1380 on: May 07, 2017, 07:44:51 PM »
Just checking in and seeing a bunch of new pages on this thread. This is really getting old. You're not a judge. Nobody needs to prove anything to you. You just keep on believing what you want. Trust me, when RH falls (notice I didn't say if) anyone currently involved with her will have their personal records opened and examined. If you have nothing to hide, by all means, keep on doing what you're doing. But, if I were involved with RH, I'd go straight to an attorney, lay out everything, and ask their advice. Lawyers barely charge three digits for a consultation. Is that too high a price to pay for your career? And don't take the statement from RH that she's talked to a lawyer and everything's okay. Go talk to your own lawyer.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 07:53:58 PM by Betsy the Quilter »
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Offline Tulonsae

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1381 on: May 07, 2017, 07:45:30 PM »
Since I posted earlier about @Iamscamilton's twitter campaign against RH, more information has been posted on FB about the tweet which had an image from a FB direct message conversation about RH miscarrying and above the photo stated "That miscarriage is lasting a while. (*see definition for modus operandi)" From what RH is saying, the image was taken from a conversation in January of 2016 (when they presumably had a very different relationship than they currently have) with someone who has commented multiple times on this thread. RH has posted a screenshot of that conversation as proof of where it came from. After seeing her post, I was curious enough to pull the tweet up again and noticed that it was retweeted by the same author with a comment of "How long did the giraffe take?".

Bullying isn't right. From either side.

I think that Twitter account is bad, very bad. I'm not sure why people keep posting about it here. It's Twitter. I'm pretty sure none of us is Jack. So I don't know what you think we can do about it.

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1382 on: May 07, 2017, 07:46:31 PM »
Hugs to Tilly and LurkingUnderARock. No one should feel that way -- especially due to a business transaction. I absolutely believe you, and I'm sorry that this happened.

ED to clarify.

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Offline elizabethbarone

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1383 on: May 07, 2017, 07:50:00 PM »
Just checking in and seeing a bunch of new pages on this thread. This is really getting old.  You're not a judge. Nobody needs to prove anything to you. You just keep on believing what you want. Trust me, when RH falls (notice I didn't say if) anyone currently involved with her will have their personal records opened and examined. If you have nothing to hide, by all means, keep on doing what you're doing. But, if I were involved with RH, I'd go straight to an attorney, lay out everything, and ask their advice. Lawyers barely charge three digits for a consultation. Is that too high a price to pay for your career? And don't take the statement from RH that she's talked to a lawyer and everything's okay. Go talk to your own lawyer.

It's always prudent to seek your own legal counsel. Please do so if you think you have anything to worry about.

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« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 08:03:28 PM by Betsy the Quilter »

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Offline Cassie Leigh

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1384 on: May 07, 2017, 07:55:50 PM »
Hugs to Tilly and LurkingUnderARock.

Ditto.  I am so sorry for the pain you've been made to feel over all of this.
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Offline wheart

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1385 on: May 07, 2017, 07:57:14 PM »
As someone else trying to understand the situation, if I'm understanding you right, you consider this more of a partnership than a business service? Are all participants on equal levels. Because that does change things.

It's a business service, but commitments still need to be upheld on both sides. In court, that is basically what they will look at in the end.

When and where did anyone say you had to make a decision on this "case"?

LOL, actually, it's all over the place. People want sides picked, but I can't do that. This isn't something as simple as that to me. Both sides are being hurt. But both sides have valid points.

I'm not sure who you are asking for permission, but I hereby allow you to refrain from making a decision.

Cheers


 :D, fair enough. Thank you for letting me off the hook!

Were you even contemplating working with her before this thread? Is the question of judgment in your case even relevant?

No, actually, since I don't write in her genres. I wasn't the one who brought up if my judgment matters, in fact, it doesn't but others were asking for us to pick sides, so I've made my stance on why I can't. Things seem to get convoluted in all this, lol.

I have to go attend to my family. So if I've missed any posts directed at me, I'll check-in tomorrow when I can. Have a goodnight.

Offline Betsy the Quilter

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1386 on: May 07, 2017, 08:02:03 PM »
Wheart,

People on both sides of this have posted their experiences; some on each side have posted screenshots, others have not.  You can read what is here and make a decision (or not), but to repeatedly ask people for more than they have shared is not appropriate.  Yes, it reads as a demand when it is repeated.  You may not have intended that, I realize.

Let's move past this. 

Everyone, let's not repeat things from the despicable Twitter account, thank you.  We'll remove content related to the Twitter feed.

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« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 08:30:18 PM by Betsy the Quilter »
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Offline ChristinaGarner

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1387 on: May 07, 2017, 08:02:25 PM »
Just checking in and seeing a bunch of new pages on this thread. This is really getting old. You're not a judge. Nobody needs to prove anything to you. You just keep on believing what you want. Trust me, when RH falls (notice I didn't say if) anyone currently involved with her will have their personal records opened and examined. If you have nothing to hide, by all means, keep on doing what you're doing. But, if I were involved with RH, I'd go straight to an attorney, lay out everything, and ask their advice. Lawyers barely charge three digits for a consultation. Is that too high a price to pay for your career? And don't take the statement from RH that she's talked to a lawyer and everything's okay. Go talk to your own lawyer.

This is very sound advice. Very sound. As in, I really, really hope people take it.

The only legal counsel to take is counsel you, yourself, obtain.


Offline sela

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1388 on: May 07, 2017, 08:03:48 PM »
Since I posted earlier about @Iamscamilton's twitter campaign against RH, more information has been posted on FB about the tweet which had an image from a FB direct message conversation about RH miscarrying and above the photo stated "That miscarriage is lasting a while. (*see definition for modus operandi)" From what RH is saying, the image was taken from a conversation in January of 2016 (when they presumably had a very different relationship than they currently have) with someone who has commented multiple times on this thread. RH has posted a screenshot of that conversation as proof of where it came from. After seeing her post, I was curious enough to pull the tweet up again and noticed that it was retweeted by the same author with a comment of "How long did the giraffe take?".

Bullying isn't right. From either side.

People shouldn't do bad things, okay? That's a no brainer. We can all agree to it.

We're discussing the particular bad behaviour reported by many customers of RH / GenreCrave / boxed sets on this thread and discussing the evidence presented of bullying, breach of contract and general unprofessional behaviour.

The focus of this thread, when it isn't being derailed, is RH's business practices and unprofessional behaviour bullying and blackballing customers who have questioned business practices, requested refunds, or wanted out.

That's the focus of this thread. What other people are doing outside of this thread is immaterial to the matter at hand.

This is diversion, pure and simple.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 08:05:46 PM by sela »

Offline Wayne Stinnett

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1389 on: May 07, 2017, 08:06:21 PM »
It's always prudent to seek your own legal counsel. Please do so if you think you have anything to worry about.

Edited quoted post. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod

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Offline Usedtoposthere

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1390 on: May 07, 2017, 08:07:30 PM »
It's a business service, but commitments still need to be upheld on both sides. In court, that is basically what they will look at in the end.

LOL, actually, it's all over the place. People want sides picked, but I can't do that. This isn't something as simple as that to me. Both sides are being hurt. But both sides have valid points.

 :D, fair enough. Thank you for letting me off the hook!

No, actually, since I don't write in her genres. I wasn't the one who brought up if my judgment matters, in fact, it doesn't but others were asking for us to pick sides, so I've made my stance on why I can't. Things seem to get convoluted in all this, lol.

I have to go attend to my family. So if I've missed any posts directed at me, I'll check-in tomorrow when I can. Have a goodnight.

I will go on record and say that I don't give a darn what you believe. I'm not sure why you would imagine anybody cares.

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1391 on: May 07, 2017, 08:10:59 PM »
And of course, I won't be.  ;)

Oh, I meant "you" in general, not you you, Wayne. Just seconding the very good advice to always get your own legal counsel.

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Offline sela

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1392 on: May 07, 2017, 08:17:20 PM »
It's a business service, but commitments still need to be upheld on both sides. In court, that is basically what they will look at in the end.

LOL, actually, it's all over the place. People want sides picked, but I can't do that. This isn't something as simple as that to me. Both sides are being hurt. But both sides have valid points.

 :D, fair enough. Thank you for letting me off the hook!

No, actually, since I don't write in her genres. I wasn't the one who brought up if my judgment matters, in fact, it doesn't but others were asking for us to pick sides, so I've made my stance on why I can't. Things seem to get convoluted in all this, lol.

I have to go attend to my family. So if I've missed any posts directed at me, I'll check-in tomorrow when I can. Have a goodnight.

IANAL but when the organizer breaks the terms of a contract, there are no longer any commitments to keep up and a new contract has to be agreed to. If a customer has paid money to the organizer and the contract is broken, they have every right not to sign a new contract and are owed money back for breach of contract. Possibly damages depending on the circumstances. That's for a judge to decide.

People do not want you to pick sides or anyone to pick sides. But if people are still demanding more evidence after 55 pages of evidence and testimony and are still unable to make a decision at this point, I question whether they are being serious or are merely diverting and offering excuses. There is a term for it but we can't use it in this forum, but it's a big ugly ogre-type being that lives under bridges.

Offline BiancaSommerland

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1393 on: May 07, 2017, 08:29:52 PM »
It's a business service, but commitments still need to be upheld on both sides. In court, that is basically what they will look at in the end.

Perhaps. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know what's being presented in the case, so I won't pass judgment on that.

But I will say, from an author's standpoint, early in my career some of my readers would come to me about bad reviews they didn't think were fair. One commented on a review and I got a head's up and messaged her, asking her to delete the comment. Whether I'd sent her or not, people would assume I had which looks bad. And that's just how I do things as an author.

I'm looking at this as how a business handles situations that taken a turn for the worst. There's a reason many try to settle things with unhappy clients as quietly as possible. When customers complain in public, the best PR firms will release a statement saying they're looking into the problem and apologize for any unpleasantness, even before they've fully investigated.

As authors, we often end up in situations where we're looking at contracts we don't understand and don't have the protection of the mass market. So we learn from each other. We find the information we can about businesses. And make the most informed decision possible. I've learned a lot over the years doing things that way. And I give the same advice to others.

In this situation I guess it comes down to what kind of business you want to work with. Both sides have given good insight into what can be expected.

That said, those who've been hurt, I'm so sorry. And I'm here for hugs and support if you need it. I haven't been around the group much until lately, but I do plan to be here more now. :)


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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1394 on: May 07, 2017, 09:01:10 PM »
I see a lot of mention of death threats, but I have not seen any actual evidence of such, nor any mention of the involvement of law enforcement, which is a logical step when there are actual death threats. Did I miss these things, or is the "death threats" claim just being trotted out as an appeal to emotion?

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Offline sela

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1395 on: May 07, 2017, 09:09:16 PM »
And I suppose the mocking death threats and jokes about her miscarriage on twitter are completely unrelated to this thread. I mean, what kind of person mocks a woman for having a miscarriage? It boggles my mind. FYI, I have seen the email from the OP to Rebecca asking to be let out of the contract. Rebecca tells her she can't give her a refund but she will get the first $500 the set makes. And as of this moment, still over on Facebook, says she will still pay her as soon as the set makes money, per the contract. You see, the no refund policy is made VERY clear up front. A refund would hurt all the authors. So what she does is donate the spot to another author and then as the set makes money she gives the original author their money back, they just have to wait. This is something that is made very clear to each and every author who signs up for a box set. There will be no court case, and if I had to guess the money being collected for legal battle will never be used for that. All the evidence is on Rebecca's page for anyone to see, unedited, and undoctored. Even after all this, she is still saying things like, "I wish all these authors the best and I'm sorry they're so unhappy." Even after the death threats by anon twitter accounts, the mocking of her miscarriage and the accusations against her mental health. She still hasn't said ONE BAD THING about anyone. Not one. Perhaps if people were to join her marketing group, go over and see how she conducts herself on a daily basis, see the library of screen caps she posts about every transaction and exactly where the money went, see where she apologizes when she makes mistakes and see how she bends over backward to make each box set a success, then maybe, just maybe this witch hunt would have a little less steam. At the very least, maybe the death threats and the mocking of her miscarriage could stop.

1. RH changed the contract. When that happens, it is nullified. Everyone who signed and paid is entitled to their money back. The no refund policy only covers contracts that are signed and fulfilled. If they are broken or changed, everyone gets to back out with money back.

I call BS on the no refund policy anyway. It's a bad business practice. If an author pulls out, there is one less spot but it can be filled easily, based on what I have heard about how popular these promos are. Anyway, when someone wants out, for whatever reason, let them out and be professional about it. If the promo is so popular, I am sure someone will step right up and fill the empty spot. The biggest indies out there who provide services and products offer money back guarantees.

2. We are talking about the business practices of RH and the experiences of people who bought services from her. They have told us that when they tried to get their money back after the contract was broken or they saw unethical or questionable business practices or pull out of the sets, they were bullied, blackballed and harmed, not the behaviour of other people.

What uninvolved people say in private about anything is not the issue. The issue is what RH did: we have first-hand reports and evidence of RH refusing to return money after breaking contracts, public shaming and bullying, and unethical business practices.

Bringing up the behaviour of other people is a diversion from the main issue and it is a tactic by the failing side of an argument.

3. Look up the definition of passive-aggressive behaviour.

4. People are reporting bad behaviour they have personally experienced. Other people may have had very good experiences. Those good experiences do not negate those who have had bad experiences.

5. The term witch hunt is loaded and suggests that all those who have given testimony and presented evidence are liars.

6. People shouldn't do bad things. We all agree. The bad things we're focused on in this thread are the reports of bad things from former customers of RH and her GenreCrave service and boxed set business. If you want to discuss other bad things by other people, I am sure you could start a thread on it. The other bad things do not detract from the specific ones we are discussing here.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 09:11:19 PM by sela »

Offline elizabethbarone

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1396 on: May 07, 2017, 09:12:40 PM »
And I suppose the mocking death threats and jokes about her miscarriage on twitter are completely unrelated to this thread. ...

I can only speak for myself, but I just looked at that Twitter account and found the miscarriage jokes despicable, to say the least. There have been no death threats or miscarriage jokes on this forum, though, so I don't think it's constructive to continue bringing up what's taking place off site. I suggest that people report the Twitter account for abuse (though, in my experience, Twitter doesn't seem to really do much about harassment *sigh*).

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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1397 on: May 07, 2017, 09:18:00 PM »
I can only speak for myself, but I just looked at that Twitter account and found the miscarriage jokes despicable, to say the least. There have been no death threats or miscarriage jokes on this forum, though, so I don't think it's constructive to continue bringing up what's taking place off site. I suggest that people report the Twitter account for abuse (though, in my experience, Twitter doesn't seem to really do much about harassment *sigh*).

It takes a lot of reports before twitter takes anything down, but I've reported posts that have been removed.

Death threats are serious. I've had to deal with them toward my daughter from friends who were 'joking'. The police got involved, as well as the school since all the kids went to the same one. It was an ugly situation, but all the parents took it seriously and it was handled quickly.

For threats like that, please report and keep documents of all instances. I know in Canada the police react quickly--they have agencies dedicated to this. I'm not sure how it is in the US, but I don't imagine they take it lightly.


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Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« Reply #1398 on: May 07, 2017, 09:32:26 PM »
This thread has now grown to a rather unwieldy 57 pp. Much information has been shared. KBoards's owner and moderators hope members' contributions to this thread will allow people to read, consider, and come to their own decisions as they grapple with this issue. It's our feeling that the pace of new revelations has slowed, and that discussion of the posted evidence is beginning to become circular. Therefore, we've made the decision to lock this particular thread. Please respect our wish to end this discussion at this point by not starting new threads about exactly the same topic.

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