Box set scams on Passive Voice

[wheart]

Anyway, I usually stay out of this sort of thing, but I simply don't understand why people are calling it a scam.

Don't feel that way. It's good that you folks tell your side of the story. You have every right to defend yourselves and stick up for your integrity and reputation, and that of those who you feel have been painted unjustly.

Unless we've seen firsthand the actual dialogs taken place between the parties involved, we're only listening to hearsay.

It's never good when only one side of the story is being told. When both sides have their say, those of us on the sidelines can make a clearer assessment of who's making the better argument.

[Usedtoposthere]

It isn't though, only in terms of manipulating rank.

Huh? Isn't that the point?

[Cheryl Douglas]

I'm just trying to figure out where all that 'buy-in' money goes. No way are they spending that much on advertising. I'm not even sure it's possible to spend that much. There are only so many places to advertise. Gifting a couple thousand copies, at a cost of a couple thousand dollars? Okay, add that to a $2k ad spend and it still doesn't add up. I made the USA list with my own box set and it cost me less than $2k to get to #90, so I don't get it. Granted, I didn't 'gift' any copies, but still, those are some seriously skewed numbers. Especially if you're talking about huge box sets with 20 authors!

[JalexM]

Huh? Isn't that the point?

Not in the sets, when gifting happens, the sets are already high ranking, so gifting would have a minimum impact compared to if your book was in the five digits.

[JalexM]

I'm just trying to figure out where all that 'buy-in' money goes. No way are they spending that much on advertising. I'm not even sure it's possible to spend that much. There are only so many places to advertise. Gifting a couple thousand copies, at a cost of a couple thousand dollars? Okay, add that to a $2k ad spend and it still doesn't add up. I made the USA list with my own box set and it cost me less than $2k to get to #90, so I don't get it. Granted, I didn't 'gift' any copies, but still, those are some seriously skewed numbers. Especially if you're talking about huge box sets with 20 authors!

It's not for one week.
The sets are on pre-order for three weeks. So, it's marketing over a large span of time. If you've ran a facebook ad over three months, the cost ad. Also as the ads go on, they become less effective, so I wouldn't be surprised if they put in more in the last month.

[Robyn Wideman]

I'm just trying to figure out where all that 'buy-in' money goes. No way are they spending that much on advertising. I'm not even sure it's possible to spend that much. There are only so many places to advertise. Gifting a couple thousand copies, at a cost of a couple thousand dollars? Okay, add that to a $2k ad spend and it still doesn't add up. I made the USA list with my own box set and it cost me less than $2k to get to #90, so I don't get it. Granted, I didn't 'gift' any copies, but still, those are some seriously skewed numbers. Especially if you're talking about huge box sets with 20 authors!

Spending enough to make USA today spending enough to make New York Times are two different beasts

[TheForeverGirlSeries]

No need to block out my name. This post is about me. I'm not afraid to say so because I have already proven through countless screenshots where the money goes and the results it gets before gifting. Sometimes I do encourage gifting when short on a platform to garner more attention there. I never break TOS and the venders know my authors sometimes gift. Sometimes not. I don't control how much they gift. It's their set. The buy in doesn't go to gifting so that is their call. The buy in goes to ads, which again, I have proven that not only does the money go there, but I often spend money out of my own pocket to advertise MORE because I am doing this to give back the author community (because they don't all seem to want to cause me stress). But I digress. Anyone be who wants to see screenshot evidence of the TRUTH can join the genrecrave marketing opportunities group on Facebook. They can call amazon and talk to amazon themselves. Make decisions for themselves without hearing from just one side (mine or anyone else's). As for me? I'm done. My daughter had surgery today and all I am getting every few minutes is "they're at it again" PMs to tell me about this. So to those well meaning individuals, thank you, but this is not a priority to me today and won't be any other day in the future. I won't keep re-posting the same screenshots that show the truth while the same people continue to omit those things from their "warning" posts. I welcome anyone to actually Join my group and decide for themselves based on screenshot evidence. And if it's not for them? I respect that, and we can go our separate ways.

 I intentionally made it known my daughter had surgery today just to see if this would be the day my haters decided to strike again - and because they did (because they chose THIS day - and will surely say they didn't know despite proving how agreesively they stalk everything I say) I now know that no amount of truth will change anything with them, and intents are malicious. So I'm done postin evidence of their lies and will allow those capable of independent thought to join my group, snoop for themselves, and get ALL the facts. Anyone who wants to buy into the propaganda may do so, as that is not the kind of person I wish to have a working relationship with anyway. I wish all authors the best, and will continue to lift other authors up who wish for me to do so. ✌🏻

Now excuse me, for I need to focus on my daughters surgery recovery and on not developing stress-induced preeclampsia during another pregnancy that could threaten the life of my unborn child. I realize those who don't know me have no reason to care how these lies and manipulative posts may affect children that have nothing to do with the situation, so I'm gonna be the adult here and say:

I'm done. Have at it. Say what you like. And those who want the truth can join the group mentioned earlier to see the hundreds of screenshots that SHOW exactly where buy in goes, see that some of my sets are free to get into and run out of my pocket, VERY FEW have the higher buy in, etc etc etc. Truth is there for those who want it. The rest can believe what they want. But I'm done repeating myself and reposting the same screenshots that conveniently get left out of these posts.

PS: Yes, in the 250,000 industry connections I have made, I have upset a few people. In the instances where I was wrong, I apologized and made things right. That's all I can do. But I won't be upset that the minority of that 250,000 are on some kind is destruction mission. When I step back and look at the biggest epicure, it's easy to see what's going on here. And seeing that, it's way to see it's a waste of my time to post screenshots to people who will ignore them. If they wanted to know where the money went, they would join the group where Bose screenshots, and many other containing indisputable facts, are posted.

[DexyDoo]

I'm just trying to figure out where all that 'buy-in' money goes. No way are they spending that much on advertising. I'm not even sure it's possible to spend that much. There are only so many places to advertise. Gifting a couple thousand copies, at a cost of a couple thousand dollars? Okay, add that to a $2k ad spend and it still doesn't add up. I made the USA list with my own box set and it cost me less than $2k to get to #90, so I don't get it. Granted, I didn't 'gift' any copies, but still, those are some seriously skewed numbers. Especially if you're talking about huge box sets with 20 authors!

I covered that in my post... The buy-in might sound high, but it all goes to marketing the set. The coordinator does NOT pocket the money. It pays for the cover, formatting, Bookbub ads, AMS ads, FB ads, Bargain Booksy, ENT, ILVN (and TONS of other newsletter ads - I can attest to that personally because I booked at least half of them for the set, and I was paid back from the marketing money within an hour or two each time).

[Cheryl Douglas]

I covered that in my post... The buy-in might sound high, but it all goes to marketing the set. The coordinator does NOT pocket the money. It pays for the cover, formatting, Bookbub ads, AMS ads, FB ads, Bargain Booksy, ENT, ILVN (and TONS of other newsletter ads - I can attest to that personally because I booked at least half of them for the set, and I was paid back from the marketing money within an hour or two each time).

I believe you. I just had no idea it cost that much to get on the NYT list. Definitely won't be putting that on my bucket list. 

[Robyn Wideman]

I believe you. I just had no idea it cost that much to get on the NYT list. Definitely won't be putting that on my bucket list.

New York is hard. You have to get really high up to even be considered.

My set made list, and I am going to see a profit. So the upfront cost isn't that bad.

[Cheryl Douglas]

New York is hard. You have to get really high up to even be considered.

My set made list, and I am going to see a profit. So the upfront cost isn't that bad.

I'd heard NYT changed the rules this year. So it is still possible for indies to make the list with ebooks?

[ShayneRutherford]

Not in the sets, when gifting happens, the sets are already high ranking, so gifting would have a minimum impact compared to if your book was in the five digits.

Rank manipulation is rank manipulation, regardless of how high a rank you may have to start with.

[TheForeverGirlSeries]

I'd heard NYT changed the rules this year. So it is still possible for indies to make the list with ebooks?

Dark Humanity made it AFTER the rule changes. The Facebook group has screenshots showing how many preorders they had. You can't gift a preorder. Honestly this whole thing is so ridiculous anymore since screenshots have been up for months and the people saying these brings have seen them and are knowingly not including them.

Feel free to contact Amazon directly and ask them if I manipulate ranks. They can see what I do I've already spoken to them, and they have already told me I'm not abusing the gifting feature. I can't control what everyone else does, but 1) gifting copies is explained directly in their TOS and 2) running blog tours where readers can win books, giving free copies for review or joining a mailing list, gifting copies to loyal readers,  and running giveaways to increase exposure and create excitement for readers are all like thugs trad publishers have done for as long as I've been on the scene.

If unsure about anything, try the following:
- speak to a lawyer - not just people who play one on the internet or say their lawyer said something, but speak to your OWN lawyer YOURSELF
- talk to amazon YOURSELF
- look for YOURSELF and SEE what actually happens, all the details, not taken out of contest and given a spin

I really don't understand why anyone would want to take anyone's word for anything - be it my word or the word of my haters - when they can simply just go look for themselves and make their own decision about things. And then they can run around saying they agree with this person or that person, by should still encourage others to also look for themselves.

What I don't understand is why anyone is telling others NOT to look for themselves and trying to control what they see and only allowing them to see certain things. Why are they not sharing screenshots of we're the money went? Why are they not sharing screenshots that show the actual terms of service about gifting? Why when this information is shared, do they delete it from their platform? Why are they against me telling people to talk to the own lawyers about things? Don't they want people to see for themselves where that money went? Don't they want people to talk to their own lawyers? Speak to amazon for themselves? Read amazons TOS? Why are these things being hidden?

Want to post a vague post about looking about for yourself as an author? How about advising authors to do this, instead of advising them to read half a story, leaving out some MAJOR facts, and hiding things like screenshots of Amazon TOS that have been shared?

I'm waiting for the day someone posts EVERYTHING. But that's not gonna happen because it doesn't fit their agenda. So be it. But hating people is not how I connect with there personally, so I can't continue to be sucked into this. Again, if anyone wants the screenshots, I they aren't hard to find. The person who posted this surely has them. Maybe he wants to share them too? Maybe he wants to share the screenshots that show exactly where the money goes? Or the screenshots of authors who have logged into my bookbub account and saw those adds being spent WHILE they were being spent? Maybe? Maybe? No? Why not?

[JalexM]

I'd heard NYT changed the rules this year. So it is still possible for indies to make the list with ebooks?

They made the list after the change.
It's not a realistic goal anymore though, selling 20k + is hard even with thousands of dollars in marketing.

Rank manipulation is rank manipulation, regardless of how high a rank you may have to start with.

Obviously, Amazon thinks differently.

[brkingsolver]

But what I cannot stand is the blackballing and bullying for no good reason at all.

Simply google STGRB and follow the links. SOP.

What blows me away are the people who think this is all being run with no profit. How naive can you be?

[DexyDoo]

Simply google STGRB and follow the links. SOP.

What blows me away are the people who think this is all being run with no profit. How naive can you be?

It's not (except for maybe affiliate link income), but who cares anyway? The amount of work the set coordinator does deserves to be paid for. I mean, do you work for free? I damn sure don't.

[wheart]

If they wanted to know where the money went, they would join the group where Bose screenshots, and many other containing indisputable facts, are posted.

Unfortunately I can't join Facebook groups , but I don't need to because I believe you and those who have posted in your defense. I've read enough of your posts in the past to get a feel of you and I don't get a sense that you're out to hurt or scam people. I've always seen your posts as just defending yourself from accusations and you do it honorably (without needing to put people down) in my eyes.

I do sense you are wanting to help people after gaining success yourself. That comes through clear for me from reading you.

I'm sure there are others who feel the same.

It's very hard to please everyone. And with most things, there are two sides to the story.

I always listen to my own mind and heart. Facts, proof, and the 'whole' story (not just one side of it) is what I base my opinions on.

I pray your daughter recovers well. And for your unborn child too. Take care, Rebecca.

[TheForeverGirlSeries]

Unfortunately I can't join Facebook groups , but I don't need to because I believe you and those who have posted in your defense. I've read enough of your posts in the past to get a feel of you and I don't get a sense that you're out to hurt or scam people. I've always seen your posts as just defending yourself from accusations and you do it honorably (without needing to put people down) in my eyes.

I do sense you are wanting to help people after gaining success yourself. That comes through clear for me from reading you.

I'm sure there are others who feel the same.

It's very hard to please everyone. And with most things, there are two sides to the story.

I always listen to my own mind and heart. Facts, proof, and the 'whole' story (not just one side of it) is what I base my opinions on.

I pray your daughter recovers well. And for your unborn child too. Take care, Rebecca.

Thank you 💗💗💗 I wish the best for everyone truly. Daughter is recovering well by the way. A little out of it from anesthesia, but she did really well

[TheForeverGirlSeries]

It's not (except for maybe affiliate link income), but who cares anyway? The amount of work the set coordinator does deserves to be paid for. I mean, do you work for free? I damn sure don't.

Thanks genrecrave does well with the actual services we offer. Boxed sets are not offered as a service.. This is my way of paying it forward. While some may cause me stress, lots of people have supported my efforts over the years, and I wouldn't be where I am without their support. Even when I was extremely depressed and on the verge of homeless, they stuck by me AND helped me do a complete 180. That's why I give. There is one girl who ever did my sets but supported me during that time, and I donated $1000 to her husbands cancer recovery. Those who are paying attention know it's not unlike me to GIVE to others. Boxed sets is only one way I do that. There's one collection coming up soon that had no buy in, a SN I am covering all expenses out of pocket. I recently helped 3 authors with new releases - I bought them each $1500 worth of advertising. I have other authors yet who I mentor for free. Yes most boxed sets have buy in because I can't afford that much money every month to pay for ads out of pocket. But I have already shown where that money goes. Yes it sucks when people try to turn something good into something evil, but as I've said, we won't convince those people. They KNOW what they are doing. They KNOW they intentionally left out the screenshots that SHOW exactly where the money went. They KNOW people have logged into my accounts and seen what's going on in there first hand. Still they say the things they say. So it's not a matter of them knowing. Anyone who DOES want to know can easily see for themselves. It's that simple.

I've gotten it all since this started. Including death threats, which were reported to the police but which, TBH, in not too worried about. But once things get to the point that people feel safe joking about helpin to hide my body, my perspective on intentions changes quite a bit. And I'm not going to stop helping others because that is how I pay it forward. Yes, I've come close. I've more than once almost said I'm not doing this anymore. Because it SUCKS taking time and money from my life to help people and getting treated this way in response. It doesn't matter what they say they think - it doesn't change reality. And reality is im getting targeted while trying to help people, and all I get out of it is the satisfaction of helping others.

So why haven't I given up? Because every time I start to type that "I'm done offering boxed set pairs" I feel EXTREMELY selfish. I am doing this to help others, so if I quit because I'm "not getting anything out it" (except for grief) then that just feel wrong to me. It's as if I would be saying "well I don't benefit from this so screw your goals" and I just have not been able to bring myself to justifying that.

I don't plan to offer boxed sets forever. I never did. But I don't want to stop for selfish reasons. I don't want to say screw you to other authors just because a different set of authors is intentionally misleading the public. So this is where I am. In reality, I probably would have stopped by now otherwise. But with how things are, I can't justify it. Every time I try, I sound like I only care about myself and how the bullying affects me instead of also caring about paying it forward. And I don't like the part of me that thinks that way. giving up on paying it forward  because I want people to leave me alone is not the answer - it's just a selfish excuse. So I persevere. I promised I would pay it forward - and I never said "unless I get bullied for doing so" - and I keep my promises. So I'm going to continue to pay it forward until *I* feel I have adequately shown appreciation to the peers who approach me with kindness, respect, and honesty.

[CrazyHorze]

The author of the post has deleted the post. I get a 404 message when I click the link.

Rebecca, I have never used your services, but when PayPal and Amazon tell you you are working within their TOS, that is what is important. Writers can say what they think the TOS means, but in the end it's PayPal and Amazon who decide.

I also question the whole gifting is considered against Amazon TOS. On my book page on Amazon I have a nice little widget that says this: Amazon Giveaway allows you to run promotional giveaways in order to create buzz, reward your audience, and attract new followers and customers. Learn more about Amazon Giveaway. If Amazon put it there and tells me to give away books, what are we talking about?

As far as I'm concerned Rebecca you have valuable information to share and I hope you will come here often. You have friends.

[cherita]

So, the original article has been deleted and in fact the entire website is gone? Nor could I find a single cached page or image of this site, except for its mention on The Passive Voice. That doesn't necessarily mean anything, but... I do find it odd.

[CrazyHorze]

The person who wrote it is a KBoarder and also a service provider. When you write something like that message and the overwhelming reaction from writers is "What are you doing?" there is only one thing to do and that is delete the post, bury it and hope your credibility is not gone. It was a strange post though and most writers here know who wrote it. But that is here nor there. I'm happy it was deleted and now we can all have a nice weekend. And let's have a heart and say the writer did not know about Rebecca's daughter being ill and when she read that she decided to delete the post. That way we are all good people and no one wins and no one loses and we can all be happy.

[Rick Gualtieri]

So, the original article has been deleted and in fact the entire website is gone? Nor could I find a single cached page or image of this site, except for its mention on The Passive Voice. That doesn't necessarily mean anything, but... I do find it odd.

Hmm. There's lots of reasons a website can go down, but who knows?  Speculation, obviously is just that.  I mostly found it interesting that PV picked up in it.

Regardless, though I won't pretend to agree with the methods of everyone on this post, I will agree on one point: people should make up their own minds.

Do your research, talk to people, and - and this is what I will always caution no matter what you do - be careful with any new venture especially the moment money exchanges hands. Visa, MasterCard, PayPal, etc they all have protections in place. Know those protections and your rights. Outside of that, good luck in your writing venture.

[TheForeverGirlSeries]

I expect the passive voice blog will stay up. Maybe th  author of that site would like access to my group to get the screenshots the source they quoted is missing. As a long term follower of the passive voice, honestly, I was surprised by the lack of investigation put into the post (that is still up) and would have expected the author of that site to look into the plethora of screenshots available that show where the money goes. That is informstion suthors deserve to have, which is why I have always been transparent about that and have those screenshots posted showing how the money is spent, as well as people who have logged into my accounts and see first hand to verify on my behalf. Which is well above and beyond anything any one else has ever had to do to prove themselves. Just saying. I have gone above and beyond - and it's up to authors to do their due diligence and look at the facts if they truly want the truth. Anything else is spreading rumors, and there's not often a healthy or kind reason to perpetuate a rumor. Some who are perpetuating these rumors, knowing they are rumors, concern me, but instead of me spreading rumors about them, I figure in time their actions will speak more than my words ever could.

[Abalone]

Pretty much this.

But there is enough info out there for people to make up their own minds if they think the risk is worth it. Worth what? I look at these USA Today Bestseller! people and their own books sell diddly squat, so, yanno... But hey, if that makes them happy. And they think it's worth the risk...

But what I cannot stand is the blackballing and bullying for no good reason at all.

I admit. I was stupid enough to sign up for one of these, because, Hey! Readers!

I asked one question "I have a clash of dates, can I possibly send to my list after the weekend?" for which I was banned, unfriended, and booted from the set.

I was lucky. I got my money back. I know some people who did not get featured and did not get their money back for doing things as simple as asking about aspects of the contract.

The product is to make lists. OK. The methods may or may not be questionable. That's up to you. Making a list gets you readers. It's an OK goal to shoot for. People do this with their own sets + Bookbub.

It's the lousy customer experience that gets me.

What the heck? What do they have against date farming? o.O