Author Topic: KU 3  (Read 30070 times)  

Offline Phronk

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #325 on: August 13, 2017, 07:22:36 AM »
It seems unlikely to me that certain groups would use page flip to read more than others. I'd have thought it was more a device issue - some devices lend themselves to it more than others. But since no one has a clue one way or the other, it's pointless to speculate.

I agree that speculating about specifics is pointless without data. However, we can make reasonable assumptions about whether or not there are differences between groups, and my assumption is that differences do exist. With any product, there are identifiable groups with big differences in how they use the product, which marketing they respond to, etc. Businesses fail if they don't tailor their efforts to each group. I don't think Kindles are immune to that principle.

You bring up a good point yourself: different devices could correspond to different Page Flip usage rates. And devices almost certainly differ between demographics. Young people and certain geographical regions are more likely to use their phones to read books, for example, and Page Flip may be less viable to use on a tiny screen, so they'll get a disproportionate share of the pot. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but it's something like that is almost certainly happening, just like it does everywhere else.

It's probably small differences, but those can translate into millions of dollars and disruptions to a few career trajectories if you let them build up (and for no good reason that I can see ... we're talking about counting pages here, it's not rocket science). I don't think it's worth freaking out over or anything, but we can't deny that it's a problem.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 01:11:00 PM by Phronk »

Offline Sapphire

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #326 on: August 13, 2017, 08:10:54 AM »
FWIW, I got it when you put up the post and spent almost half an hour looking for an animated GIF for that. No joy. :-\
BUT
Yeah, I got it.  ;D
Desmond X, I always enjoy your sense of humor style.


Offline David VanDyke

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #327 on: August 13, 2017, 01:29:51 PM »
Thank you for this brilliant explanation and making me laugh so hard my coffee came out my nose. :)

You're welcome. I stand on the shoulders of giants. See: Nassim Nicholas Taleb. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb



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Offline David VanDyke

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #328 on: August 13, 2017, 01:37:15 PM »
That just proves that scammers hurt legitimate authors, which we're probably all on board with already.

It seems unlikely to me that certain groups would use page flip to read more than others. I'd have thought it was more a device issue - some devices lend themselves to it more than others. But since no one has a clue one way or the other, it's pointless to speculate.

Because my comments were in reply to a question about why the problem exists, when the poster's intuition says it shouldn't, I brought up these observations. Yes, they're obvious in one sense, and speculation may seem pointless in identifying the specific problem--but it's not pointless when it clarifies how problems could arise in general.

An analogy: Someone says to me, "I can't believe we're still having wildfires with all the rain that's fallen. It makes no sense." I could then identify several low-probability cases that nevertheless, over time and square mileage, lead to wildfires. In one sense, it's pointless for me to speculate on how any specific wildfire will start, as low-probability cases are usually useless as predictors. But in a general sense, it's very valuable to provide an answer for how things do occasionally happen, if only to help someone come to terms with the dissonance between intuition and statistical reality.



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Offline MelD

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #329 on: August 13, 2017, 02:37:23 PM »
Quote from: David VanDyke
An analogy: Someone says to me, "I can't believe we're still having wildfires with all the rain that's fallen. It makes no sense." I could then identify several low-probability cases that nevertheless, over time and square mileage, lead to wildfires. In one sense, it's pointless for me to speculate on how any specific wildfire will start, as low-probability cases are usually useless as predictors. But in a general sense, it's very valuable to provide an answer for how things do occasionally happen, if only to help someone come to terms with the dissonance between intuition and statistical reality.

I am now your new fan. :) Very well explained.

Offline David VanDyke

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #330 on: August 13, 2017, 03:50:43 PM »
I am now your new fan. :) Very well explained.

Great!

Now buy my books.

;)



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Re: KU 3
« Reply #331 on: August 14, 2017, 10:00:14 PM »
That just proves that scammers hurt legitimate authors, which we're probably all on board with already.

It seems unlikely to me that certain groups would use page flip to read more than others. I'd have thought it was more a device issue - some devices lend themselves to it more than others. But since no one has a clue one way or the other, it's pointless to speculate.
As I mentioned a few pages back, I use page flip for some genres and not others. Those I've spoken to do the same. Page flip will skew towards affecting 'fast reads' more than longer or more complex books.

I use it to skim faster paced books that are fun and easy to read.

I do not use it for epics,or for informative NF books.

The increased page payout will favour the epic writers while killing the pages of my casual reads. For the record, I don't page flip my borrowed books, only purchased ones - but that's only because I know what happens to those payments and I care enough to make myself uncomfortable when reading.

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Offline devalong

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #332 on: August 15, 2017, 07:44:24 AM »
 :o

This is with a paperback, but the something similar could probably be used to swipe on a device...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir5ZanXy6nc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir5ZanXy6nc</a>

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #333 on: August 15, 2017, 08:08:56 AM »
The increased page payout will favour the epic writers while killing the pages of my casual reads.

This is nothing more than a hope. There is no evidence the payout per page will improve. And we wont know for sure for another month.

All I see at the moment is a 30% decrease in page reads, and a definite gap between reads and ranks, indicating I'm getting the borrows, but not the reads.

Consequently, after KU being 65% of my income since KU2 began, its now dropped to 48%, and appears to be still going down.

I'm no longer thinking KU has to be rethought. I'm now planning how the hell I get out without losing 65% of my fan base. And I dont have an answer yet. Just readers begging me not to leave KU.

But the sad fact now is, KU cannibalizing sales is no longer covering them in terms of money.

We might get an improvement in the payout per page, but I seriously doubt its going to cover my 30% loss in page reads.

Offline David VanDyke

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #334 on: August 15, 2017, 11:02:16 AM »

I'm no longer thinking KU has to be rethought. I'm now planning how the hell I get out without losing 65% of my fan base. And I dont have an answer yet. Just readers begging me not to leave KU.


Some of my fans grumbled when I left KU, but nobody abandoned me as far as I know. Are they really a fan if they abandon an author they connect with over what boils down to a few dollars a month? So I doubt you'll lose 65% of your fan base. You're not making your books unavailable; you're just taking them out of the service that makes them feel free. So in fact, you might have them valuing your books more now that they have to buy them individually.

It also helps to explain it to them if you have a good mailing list. Tell them why you're pulling out of KU--that it's no longer tolerable for you, you're sorry but it has to be this way, etc. And I bet the fans you pick up from the other vendors will more than make up for the few you actually lose from leaving KU.





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Offline Joseph M. Erhardt

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #335 on: August 16, 2017, 06:20:36 AM »
The payout for July, per a post on KDP forums, is now .00403x / page.

If there's been a disallowal of scam pages, no positive effect is showing in this figure.

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Offline Amanda M. Lee

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #336 on: August 16, 2017, 06:46:18 AM »
The payout for July, per a post on KDP forums, is now .00403x / page.

If there's been a disallowal of scam pages, no positive effect is showing in this figure.
While I hate the low number, you should keep in mind that KU3 came into effect on August 1st. The numbers we just got reports on were for July.

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Offline Sapphire

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #337 on: August 16, 2017, 07:23:04 AM »


"While I hate the low number, you should keep in mind that KU3 came into effect on August 1st. The numbers we just got reports on were for July."

Good point, Amanda.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 07:24:47 AM by Sapphire »


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Re: KU 3
« Reply #338 on: August 16, 2017, 07:39:17 AM »
While I hate the low number, you should keep in mind that KU3 came into effect on August 1st. The numbers we just got reports on were for July.

Yes.

But.

If Amazon had any interest in keeping authors happy for another month before we know what the payout is for KU3, they should not have dumped this payout so badly.

To my mind, this payout value is the straw which breaks the camel's back. And it didn't have to be if they intend paying out better for KU3.

Not to mention those of us getting 30% less reads.

Offline Amanda M. Lee

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #339 on: August 16, 2017, 08:11:56 AM »
Yes.

But.

If Amazon had any interest in keeping authors happy for another month before we know what the payout is for KU3, they should not have dumped this payout so badly.

To my mind, this payout value is the straw which breaks the camel's back. And it didn't have to be if they intend paying out better for KU3.

Not to mention those of us getting 30% less reads.
I think everyone should make the decision for themselves. I've never advocated otherwise. Amazon dumped an extra million in the pot just to get it up to that paltry number. I don't think people realize how big an issue the bonus books truly are.

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #340 on: August 16, 2017, 08:24:39 AM »


All I see at the moment is a 30% decrease in page reads, and a definite gap between reads and ranks, indicating I'm getting the borrows, but not the reads.


Me too, it's so frustrating. I currently have a rank of low to mid 3000s, and have 1350 page reads for the day. The last book was getting about 5k page reads a day when it was at that rank, and it was shorter  :(

Unless the page payout goes up considerably, I'm foreseeing one of my lowest months earnings for my longest book with the best consistent rank.
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Offline D. Zollicoffer

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #341 on: August 16, 2017, 09:05:12 AM »
80% of my books are in KU. I keep the newest ones out for a few months because I want people to BUY them. For me, this is the best approach. The only thing I hate is that I'll occasionally get one star reviews because a certain book isn't in the program. It's turning some readers into entitled brats, sadly. Some days I wish that they never introduced it lol

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #342 on: August 16, 2017, 11:34:40 AM »
80% of my books are in KU. I keep the newest ones out for a few months because I want people to BUY them. For me, this is the best approach. The only thing I hate is that I'll occasionally get one star reviews because a certain book isn't in the program. It's turning some readers into entitled brats, sadly. Some days I wish that they never introduced it lol

That's a new one and hardly fair  >:(

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #343 on: August 16, 2017, 05:03:05 PM »
The only thing I hate is that I'll occasionally get one star reviews because a certain book isn't in the program. It's turning some readers into entitled brats, sadly.

That's a new one and hardly fair

I had one of these not long after KU2 started. I did the same thing, leaving putting it into KU until a month after release. The review was nasty. I changed my policy soon after, so no further ones.

But once I pull out fully, I guess I should expect some.  :'(

Offline TwistedTales

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #344 on: August 17, 2017, 04:00:56 AM »
It's possible they changed the definition of a page read to something where they take into account time as well as last page position. It was probably designed to stop a bot fast flipping through pages to the end of the book. However, if set too tightly it would catch faster readers/skimmers.

There was always more to KU3.0 than the email stated. Personally, I thought the email they sent out had been so heavily edited it had nothing meaningful left in it. It made me wonder what they'd taken out.  ;)

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #345 on: August 17, 2017, 06:18:03 AM »
KU is an effective bargain bin. A way to give your work away cheaply or for free. If you aren't earning more for a sale than a borrow you're pricing is massively cheap.

The whole strategy behind putting work in KU that earns more for a sale than a borrow caters to the belief that in KU you have more visibility and therefore more readers. Or that people won't pay for your work and only borrow it.

Despite criticism from some authors, KU1's model was extremely easy to profit with because you didn't have to write a 60k novel to earn $1.35 for a borrow. You could write a short or a novella or whatever length you wanted. And the reader didn't even have to like your book enough that they read the whole thing - they just had to borrow it (and get 10 percent through). The same fundamentals in as when they buy your book. You don't get paid for a sale when the reader finishes if they have their Kindle turned on and page flip disabled and the page counts are registering - you get paid when they click buy and download your book. As it should be.

If KU pays authors less then it devalues books. If you leave KU and your sales die it is because of KU. Or the other authors who are in it.

I'm using KU at the moment for my new name because I have ZERO chance without it. I hate the payout system but basically until I have an audience, my books might as well be free.

For authors who are already established, your numbers will tell you what to do. But if you think this is as bad as it gets for KU I'm sure in a year or two we'll have a different perspective.

KU is supposed to be attracting more authors and more subscriptions and more pages being read as time goes by. If not, is the program in decline? And whose fault is that if it's the case?

Amazon aren't doing us any favors topping the pot up by one million. Scammers, bonus books, KENPC manipulation - Their constant process is all about taking away our payments piece by piece, dollar by dollar. Until there are millions of KU subscriptions and all the content is for free. The only one who collects is Amazon.

My prediction: within six months we'll be below .004 for a page read. It might even be next month. Are your book actually worth less tomorrow than today? According to Amazon, they are.

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #346 on: August 17, 2017, 06:31:55 AM »
KU is an effective bargain bin. A way to give your work away cheaply or for free.

NO. It never was. And I never looked at it that way.

Amazon may consider it this way, but that's why I'm getting out.

Draft2Digital registration complete, and my only non-KU book in their upload format is now out across all they distribute to. First 2 books pulled, the rest will done very soon.

Anyone in Scribd? Whats it like?

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #347 on: August 17, 2017, 06:52:15 AM »
NO. It never was. And I never looked at it that way.

If Amazon are paying less than the same royalty as a sale would net you for a full read, then your book is discounted. The more the payment per page declines, the longer your book has to be to earn a proper royalty.

Everyone knew this would happen when they went from KU1 to KU2. Couldn't have gotten away with it on August 2015, but had the scammers and the .004 page read amount, and the page flip prognosis, the KENPC manipulation and inaccurate page read reports happened then, maybe the Kindle Bestsellers list wouldn't be the KU Wasteland it is now.

I still have hope though. Unless you're brand new I can't see a reason for having your backlist in KU. New Releases maybe, but then that's just because of the KU chart domination. This really has been a Lose-Lose situation. Unless Amazon are really cashing in on the subscriptions, then I guess it is a win for them.

Offline Picky Android

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #348 on: August 17, 2017, 07:01:05 AM »
Quote from: David Vandyke
[snip]


A philosopher of sorts, you are.  It is what it is, till it ain't - so to speak.  I do hope that scamming will become less of a problem. No one knows for sure how big it is $ wise. It could be significant.  Amazon seems to think it is not so big (but they would likely say that if they don't have a fix for it too I imagine), but the issue is coming to a head. Fairness is in everyone's heart.

KENPC decrease is not anyone's friend - Amazon's or author's. Amazon 'Contact Us' does pass on ideas to the business management part of the division as well as the technical if you have ideas that may help and the first responder thinks so too. I've done this.  One in particular I got from this board. 

But they are the 'Great Wizard of Oz' behind the screen and have all the data and control of the system. But everyone needs ideas from somewhere to solve problems if you can't figure it out yourself.

Hoping for the best.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 07:07:07 AM by Picky Android »

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Re: KU 3
« Reply #349 on: August 17, 2017, 07:05:27 AM »
If Amazon are paying less than the same royalty as a sale would net you for a full read, then your book is discounted. The more the payment per page declines, the longer your book has to be to earn a proper royalty.

Not at the beginning. Back then I was pricing at $2.99, and KU wasn't significantly less. But its eroded over time, and made worse by me moving to $4.99.

Quote
Everyone knew this would happen when they went from KU1 to KU2. Couldn't have gotten away with it on August 2015, but had the scammers and the .004 page read amount, and the page flip prognosis, the KENPC manipulation and inaccurate page read reports happened then, maybe the Kindle Bestsellers list wouldn't be the KU Wasteland it is now.

I wouldn't say everyone knew, but there were certainly enough doomsayers.

And yes, if KU2 had started out the way it is now, I'd have probably never joined it, and gone wide more than a year ago.

Quote
I still have hope though.

I no longer do. This dog wont hunt anymore. The engine is broken, and unfixable (at least as far as Amazon motivation is concerned). From here on, it only gets worse.

I might be making a mistake if your hope comes through, but its a mistake I need to make at least once, following those who did a long time ago.

Quote
Unless you're brand new I can't see a reason for having your backlist in KU. New Releases maybe, but then that's just because of the KU chart domination. This really has been a Lose-Lose situation. Unless Amazon are really cashing in on the subscriptions, then I guess it is a win for them.

I've been thinking about the new books situation. And I'm having a hard time holding a book on the other platforms for 3 months, just to pander to KU. But one thing some of my KU readers are asking is if there is an alternative to KU we can all move to, and tonight I discovered Scribd. No idea if its a viable alternative for my KU readers, but its worth asking the questions.

Amazon if you're reading - KU3 is not worth the exclusivity requirement!