Author Topic: So...about the banned book thing  (Read 14295 times)  

Offline Shelley K

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #150 on: August 10, 2017, 01:36:19 PM »
Quote from: Markus Croft

Part of this author's plan, surely, is the moral outrage that would follow and garner her more attention. Our lives are online now, there's an attention economy, and by giving this author attention, by arguing about their book, by admonishing anyone who doesn't share your opinion about the book or the content within, you are driving eyeballs toward the very thing you despise. This isn't to say your opinions don't have other value. This thread gave me a lot to think about that I wouldn't think about on my own, but you are giving this person exactly what they want.

Quoted. For. Truth.

Lots of things get my red up, but if got judgmental about entertainment I find vile and the people who enjoy it, without even delving into what kinds of sexual fantasies they might have (oh god), my pointy finger would be cramped up all the time.

Quote from: Nic
The effect of such books probably is not that people will go about and rape someone, or welcome father-daughter incest. The changes may be much more subtle than that. Maybe condoning infractions which someone with an uninfluenced opinion would reject as not acceptable? Or not springing to the help of someone, because they believe what happens to someone is okay, when it isn't? Maybe it is as "inconsequential" as laughing at a girl who was touched inappropriately by a teacher or a boyfriend and telling her not to be such a bore?

But everything you're putting forward has always happened, long before this book or any books like it. How many schoolchildren have read enough of this kind of fiction (or any) that they've been influenced into thinking their friend getting touched by a teacher is funny. Having sex with children used to be accepted in many cultures. It still is in some. Most of the world is a long way from that now, and things keep improving, despite such literature. It wasn't that long ago that marital rape was thought to be an oxymoron. Most people recognize it now. And when a rape victim is treated poorly by a judge, scores of people raise the roof over it, because more and more people than ever before recognize how wrong it is to blame the victim.

If fictional dubious consent or outright rapes in romance have so much negative affect, how do we keep progressing in this area? The only argument that can really be made is that without that type of fiction (or media in general) we might have made even faster progress than we already have, but I personally think that's shaky ground, because we can never know.

Offline Usedtoposthere

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #151 on: August 10, 2017, 01:40:53 PM »
Usedto,

Just wanted to say how glad I am that you posted. I thought I'd fallen into another dimension.
I know, right? For what it's worth, a lot of authors I know are talking about this, and everybody's disgusted. (Including people who write suspense and bad things happening. Which aren't perpetrated by the heroes.) I'm just the only one banging my head against the wall.

Online kcmorgan

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #152 on: August 10, 2017, 01:50:44 PM »
For people who are assuming that I condone incest and child molestation because I'm trying to be accurate about what's in the book as far as I'm aware, you should probably know I've experienced the things you're suggesting I'm okay with. I know firsthand the devastation caused by rape and abuse. Years of being on anti-depressants, therapy twice a week, a decade before I could stand to be touched. I know the reality of what we're talking about and wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy let alone any random child.

But these books aren't reality, they are so far from reality, I can read them and not even be triggered. It's nothing like that.

A couple months ago, my mother died, and several of my family members insisted I call my father and let him know. After all, he was once her husband and /deserved/ to know. My response was a hard no. They thought I was being petty, and that whatever issue I had needed to be put in the past at a time like this. We were blood, and that's all that mattered.
 
I would read every book in that woman's catalog thirty times over if it meant not having that conversation. So it's not that I condone child abuse, it's that I can tell the difference between reality and fiction.

But please, don't let this change your mind about blacklisting me. The last thing I need is a bunch of reviews calling me a rape apologist.

Kayci Morgan | Kayci Morgan Writes

Offline Nic

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #153 on: August 10, 2017, 01:57:53 PM »
But everything you're putting forward has always happened, long before this book or any books like it. How many schoolchildren have read enough of this kind of fiction (or any) that they've been influenced into thinking their friend getting touched by a teacher is funny. Having sex with children used to be accepted in many cultures. It still is in some. Most of the world is a long way from that now, and things keep improving, despite such literature. It wasn't that long ago that marital rape was thought to be an oxymoron. Most people recognize it now. And when a rape victim is treated poorly by a judge, scores of people raise the roof over it, because more and more people than ever before recognize how wrong it is to blame the victim.

Do you progress? And how favourably do you compare to the progress of other countries? That is the question. Last time I looked at related statistics, the USA were still at the lowest end of all western democracies, with quite a distance to New Zealand or the United Kingdom. And we are again quite a distance from other countries and could do much better. The next question is where things could have been without the influence of books telling girls that they are worthless or that submitting to assault, rape and stalking is romantic? How much influence has the combined tempering with people's minds by all the media? Contrary to you I'm regularly shocked by the amount of people not recognising the lack of consent, both in fiction and in reality.

Offline Crystal_

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #154 on: August 10, 2017, 01:59:42 PM »
I've read a lot of rape fantasies and a lot of dubious consent. I guarantee you that reading those haven't shaped my view on real-life rape. There are very clear lines in my mind about consent. How is that explained? Why don't I think women secretly want it if I've read millions of words of that very thing? Not being stupid helps. Reading a wide variety of things helps. Thinking helps. Stupid or easily persuaded readers exist, I'm quite sure, but there's a point where people talking about author responsibility are really talking about writing for the lowest common denominator. It's another facet of the many-sided die of PC speech. Don't offend, don't challenge, don't put a bad idea into someone's head. It's really a shame we're talking about a book written solely for shock value in this context.

How can you really know you haven't be influenced by something? There's no way to be sure of that unless you somehow studied your thought process before and after subjecting yourself to something.

Don't get me wrong. I'm in favor of adult women being able to read any shade of dark romance without shame. (I do wish Amazon would implement a proper trigger warning system). Rape is a common fantasy and being able to play that fantasy out through fiction is generally a good thing. But no one really knows how it affects us long term. It might be a positive change, like a therapy of sorts. It may make us more likely to victim blame or sweep stuff under the rug. We really don't know.

I know a lot of dark romance authors who complain about kink shaming then suggest that people who aren't into dubcon or noncon are just uptight. We should all be free to read and write what we want. And to criticize what other people write. And Amazon should be free to pull books or not. Free speech goes in every direction.

Online Becca Mills

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #155 on: August 10, 2017, 02:02:15 PM »
One swallow does not make a summer. Like everything else this is a numbers game.

Just because you - one individual - aren't influenced, doesn't mean others aren't either. People are swayed by subliminal messages daily. I know for example that I never bought anything advertised on TV. Not because TV advertising doesn't work, it works and very well so. It's because I have made it a conscious effort not to do so. That doesn't change the fact that millions of people buy a specific brand of coffee or go and try the new chocolate bar seen on TV because they are way more susceptible to this than I am.

The effect of such books probably is not that people will go about and rape someone, or welcome father-daughter incest. The changes may be much more subtle than that. Maybe condoning infractions which someone with an uninfluenced opinion would reject as not acceptable? Or not springing to the help of someone, because they believe what happens to someone is okay, when it isn't? Maybe it is as "inconsequential" as laughing at a girl who was touched inappropriately by a teacher or a boyfriend and telling her not to be such a bore?

I do not think that not writing such books would solve the whole problem. Refusing to acknowledge it doesn't do so, either.

That seems right to me, but I do think the effect might be knotty, complex, and varied. One thing that springs to mind is that awareness of, conversation about, and push-back against "rape culture" seems to have blossomed in the U.S. over the past decade, a period that coincides with the mainstreaming of erotica, as facilitated by ebooks. Rape remains hideously common here, but it has declined somewhat. Is that a chance correlation, or are the two effects amplifying one another somehow? That's the difficulty with teasing out causes and effects -- there are always all these influences bouncing through culture(s) like cue balls, and sometimes they interact in unexpected ways. Maybe the conversation/controversy the more disturbing areas of erotica provoke has given it a very different real-world effect than those old-style dubcon romances someone mentioned upthread. Maybe subtle rapeyness is normalizing, whereas extreme rapeyness stands out as obviously fantastical and helps illuminate the distinction in readers' minds. Who knows?




Offline Shelley K

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #156 on: August 10, 2017, 02:16:59 PM »
Quote from: Crystal_
How can you really know you haven't be influenced by something

I meant I haven't been influenced by it into thinking that rape's okay, or that consent isn't necessary, or whatever crap in that dubious consent is supposed to make people think now. I haven't been negatively influenced by it.  I know what rape is, and no amount of fiction is going to color my perception of that. I don't believe I'm anything special, so I have confidence that plenty of other people can make up their minds independently of their entertainment choices.

Do you progress? And how favourably do you compare to the progress of other countries? That is the question. Last time I looked at related statistics, the USA were still at the lowest end of all western democracies, with quite a distance to New Zealand or the United Kingdom. And we are again quite a distance from other countries and could do much better. The next question is where things could have been without the influence of books telling girls that they are worthless or that submitting to assault, rape and stalking is romantic? How much influence has the combined tempering with people's minds by all the media? Contrary to you I'm regularly shocked by the amount of people not recognising the lack of consent, both in fiction and in reality.

Yes, we progress. The number of people who get up in arms over rapey fiction is just one indicator of that. Flashback to attitudes just from childhood, and they were vastly different. There are absolutely people who don't understand consent. I have every reason to believe that number is smaller every day. And I know for a fact in my lifetime the progress has been vast. Almost every female I know, and I include myself, has been sexually assaulted at some point in our lives in some way to varying degrees, usually before the age of 20. Some men I know have been as well.

Child me could tell you at length how things are different today, and how it would have been far better if things had been the way they are now, then. We still have a long way to go. But yes, we progress.


@kcmorgan I'm so sorry you felt attacked in this thread.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 02:22:17 PM by Shelley K »

Offline Nic

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #157 on: August 10, 2017, 02:18:57 PM »
Is it genre fiction's responsibility, and the authors that write it, to solve societal problems even part way?

I think that as a first step you'd really need to read a couple of the books we talk about here. Not to be an arse, but you really have to see first-hand what is being discussed here.

Regarding your question, I can't speak for others. However, I can't so easily shake the feeling of responsibility I sense everyone has for one's actions. How I or others shoulder that responsibility is of course a totally different topic. What bugs me is this aprs moi, le dluge stance so many seem to be taking. Sell the goods, take the money, run and don't care about what you've done. But if it ever is considered good, then of course it's all fine and banana-sized smiles.

Offline Nic

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #158 on: August 10, 2017, 02:26:23 PM »
Yes, we progress. The number of people who get up in arms over rapey fiction is just one indicator of that.

Oh my. Far less people get up in arms over rapey and obscene fiction than a decade or two ago, that is sure.   ::)

Offline Shelley K

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #159 on: August 10, 2017, 02:38:37 PM »
Oh my. Far less people get up in arms over rapey and obscene fiction than a decade or two ago, that is sure.   ::)

We'll have to agree to disagree. It has gone in phases, and the type of fiction you're talking about in this particular book didn't even get published the way it does today a decade or two ago for people to flip out over. Religious groups and movements trying to exert control are also a separate issue. Super disturbing stuff existed in fiction and mostly went unnoticed, but it wasn't in books written by women and marketed to women. That's a whole nother discussion you'll doubtlessly disagree with me about.

Offline Going Incognito

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #160 on: August 10, 2017, 02:44:39 PM »
That is the thing though. This was all part of the authors marketing strategy. All the ARC/street team/bloggers were told in very stern words to not put anything in the reviews that says what the "taboo" is. They were not allowed to hint at it or anything. 

"Taboo," when used in erotica or romance this side of the last pornocalypse, is code for PI (pseudo incest) or I (actual incest on BN or Smash or places that allow it. Or used to, I'm out of the erotica loop and have been for quite some time.) Readers looking for that kind of read look for the word taboo. Just FYI. If you find 'A Taboo Romance' or 'Taboo Erotica' in a description, you're getting a 'family' read. Just saying.

Offline sela

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #161 on: August 10, 2017, 02:44:49 PM »
There appear to be two big forces motivating us -- a desire for safety and for freedom. They are often in conflict. We desire to be safe, but we also want freedom.

Those who focus on safety often try to achieve it by controlling our behavior, our thoughts and our desires. We fear violence and so we think that outlawing violent video games or song lyrics or literature or films will make us safer. There are those who focus on freedom -- expanding it, and protecting our personal freedoms, such as the freedom to think and to speak and to create art as we see fit. Some defend all speech, no matter how vile or horrifying. They fear any restriction on freedom means the end to it.

I am all about the gray. Not because I'm a moral relativist but because I've seen both sides and realize how hard finding a healthy balance is.

I want maximum freedom but I also want maximum safety. Dang but that's hard to achieve.

Human happiness and the good life are somewhere in between these two, in the very messy gray areas, but that's hard to deal with. It's far easier to rail against violent videos or against censorship.

In the end, a lot of it isn't black and white. It would be so easy if it were. It isn't easy. These issues are hard. As someone who dealt with the system in place to protect women and children, I know how hard. I was a play therapist for children who were abused and neglected under the age of five and saw the effects of child sexual abuse at a very early age. There is nothing romantic about it.

Yet, as vile as I might personally find [this book], I would say that a novel like [this one] is not the cause of a three-year-old child being raped any more than it is the cause of a forty-year-old man who adopts that child and sexually abuses it. It's not novels that create pedophiles. I'd wager most don't read romance novels even ones with content like [this one's].

So, to me, it's really hard to find the happy place between safety/security and freedom.

In the end, we have to ask how much we want to restrict our freedoms in order to protect us from evil. Will outlawing a book like [this one] and pillorying its author and its readers really prevent a 40-year old man from sexually abusing a 3 or 4-year-old  -- or 16 year old he has adopted?

How far do we want to go in restricting art and speech to protect ourselves against evil? What is the price we will pay for doing so?

I don't have the answers but I think it's important that we ask the questions.


Edited to remove the book's title. - Becca

« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 03:11:25 PM by Becca Mills »

Offline MyraScott

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #162 on: August 10, 2017, 02:49:15 PM »
Throughout this whole episode, there is this weird entitlement thing happening. 

"I can write whatever I want and Amazon is required to distribute it."

No, they are not.


I will defend to the end of my days your right to write whatever twisted fantasies you want to write and I will defend other people's right to read said fantasie... but getting it into their hands is no retailer's responsibility. 

This isn't banning.  This isn't a "rights" issue.  It doesn't meet their guidelines, they don't have to sell it on your behalf.

Amazon isn't telling anyone they can't write what they want and it isn't telling anyone what they are allowed to read. 

This isn't the only book that's ever been rejected due to content issues.  But the author has certainly made the most of it.

Online kcmorgan

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #163 on: August 10, 2017, 02:57:16 PM »
Oh my. Far less people get up in arms over rapey and obscene fiction than a decade or two ago, that is sure.   ::)
I don't know. My mom had stacks of Harlequin Romances from floor to ceiling and half of them were about pirates/sheiks/secret agents/princes (powerful, dangerous men) whisking a woman away from her life and ravishing her. These books have been around for as long as I can remember and make up a fair amount of the market.  The terminology has changed, but plots have remained pretty much the same except the millionaires have become billionaires. Maybe it's important to look at /why/ these kinds of stories sell so well. I mean if it's just horrible disgusting stuff that no one should think of, then why are so many women reading them? I mean they are basically stories where a guy sweeps in, solves all a woman's problems, overcomes her hangups and makes her happy forever. How anyone could think this could be misconstrued with actual rape is beyond me. It's nothing like it. And if we think that men will read these and be influenced by them, do we also think that they'll go around buying the women they rape houses and cars and trying to die for them because that's in these books too?

I think action/adventures where female characters serve as little more than a reward for completing the quest would have more influence on rape culture than dubcon does. (I don't mean all action/adventure does this, I'm just talking about the ones that do). When I see cases of date rape, it seems like the rapist didn't get that the woman was a feeling/thinking human being. But Romance, even dubcon, centers on the woman's thoughts and emotions, so much so that sometimes the men don't even get viewpoint chapters. And what I understand about the psychology of rapists leads me to believe they'd have zero interest in reading dubcon, it actually goes against what rapists find appealing about rape. You can see this in the contrast of rape porn, where often the woman is crying, tortured [redacted because I was going waaay too deep, lets just say it gets bad]. Rape victims are more likely to read dubcon than rapists, so I doubt it's having a serious impact on influencing rape culture.

@kcmorgan I'm so sorry you felt attacked in this thread.
It's okay. I've been called worse. And threats to blacklist me don't phase me because no one reads my books anyway.

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Offline MyraScott

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #164 on: August 10, 2017, 03:03:57 PM »
I haven't seen anyone saying she shouldn't be allowed to write this, and I haven't seen anyone saying no one should be allowed to read this.

This whole tempest is over Amazon delisting the book and the torch-and-pitchfork crowds screaming "Banned books!  Don't take our liberty!" 

But as far as I know, the government hasn't issued a ban on this book or made it illegal.  So which "rights" are we arguing over?

Online Atunah

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #165 on: August 10, 2017, 03:08:22 PM »
I don't really see any author in this thread attacked. Unless I missed that post or was deleted as I did read the whole thread. In case the "blacklisting" comment is in regards to my post about putting authors on a list. I don't know who you are kcmorgan, nor do I know what you write or have seen your books. Nor have I seen you out there as far as I can tell buddying up to that author in question.

I am putting authors on a list that are known authors, no offense meant. Known authors that have acted in a way in the aftermath I find repulsive. These are authors known to me by the genres they write, goodreads feeds, twitter feeds, etc.

Nobody has said anything about blacklisting a specific author at all. I am not naming them. Some I have already read some of their books, I will no more.

Just wanted to clear this up before it keeps spreading in this thread about a suppose blacklisting of a specific author that never happened. Its one of those things that bugs me a lot when stuff like that gets said.

There are also readers I have unfollowed over this. I can't trust their recommendations anymore.

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Offline lilywhite

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #166 on: August 10, 2017, 03:22:17 PM »
This isn't the only book that's ever been rejected due to content issues.  But the author has certainly made the most of it.

I do find it incredibly disingenuous for her to post on FB how this backlash has her in tears, but there's now a tab at the top of her website labeled BANNED and her addressing of the problem on her website and in replies to various Facebook posts involve a lot of Haha and LOL. And now this thing Rosalind's posted, about her "Too Soon?" post? It's just ridiculous. DOn't tell me you only intended it to ever be for its (normally) niche audience, and then milk the controversy and "bullying" for every penny you can get while literally laughing all the way to the bank.

And I too will defend to the death her right to write it, and to have it read, but it should NEVER have been in the Romance category on Amazon. The state of the Romance category on Amazon these days is ****ing APPALLING.

Offline Crystal_

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #167 on: August 10, 2017, 03:24:49 PM »
I haven't seen anyone saying she shouldn't be allowed to write this, and I haven't seen anyone saying no one should be allowed to read this.

This whole tempest is over Amazon delisting the book and the torch-and-pitchfork crowds screaming "Banned books!  Don't take our liberty!" 

But as far as I know, the government hasn't issued a ban on this book or made it illegal.  So which "rights" are we arguing over?

Yeah, basically this. I find it tiresome how rarely people who complain about their freedom of speech being stomped on are really trying to say something brave or meaningful. It's usually people reaffirming the status quo. Again, I'm not discussing this book but this phenomenon of content being pulled or edited bc of a large co's policies/decision.

This isn't a liberty thing. It's capitalism.

Offline Shelley K

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #168 on: August 10, 2017, 03:35:54 PM »
This whole tempest might have started over that, but there's more layers to it. Laws and state vs. federal were mentioned, but where the thread has gone is definitely a moral direction, not a legal one. I think we entered a gray area when we started talking about creative works being responsible for the actions of the people who consume them or not, but I don't think anyone thinks Amazon isn't within their right to unpublish anything. But again, I might be wrong.

I think that's more the Facebook conversation and the authors' followers. I haven't really followed that, though. It's marketing, so expect the flames will be fanned for a while.

I feel like the case of this specific book is just shock marketing that did spark a broader argument. And after stepping away for a bit and thinking about responsibility, particularly in romance fiction which surely means people want less dubious consent and outright rape, definitely the stuff in this book, my feeling really boils down to the distasteful truth that once again, the default is victim-blaming. Rape and rape culture is being laid at the feet of women as their responsibility for the fantasies they have and the stuff they write and read. I'm sure it's not intentional, but there it is. When are the men who actually commit rapes going to be the ones blamed instead of the women who might write or read something considered deviant in a fantasy novel?

Like I said, there's progress, but we still have a ways to go.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 03:45:49 PM by Shelley K »

Online kcmorgan

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #169 on: August 10, 2017, 04:13:12 PM »
I don't really see any author in this thread attacked. Unless I missed that post or was deleted as I did read the whole thread. In case the "blacklisting" comment is in regards to my post about putting authors on a list. I don't know who you are kcmorgan, nor do I know what you write or have seen your books. Nor have I seen you out there as far as I can tell buddying up to that author in question.

I am putting authors on a list that are known authors, no offense meant. Known authors that have acted in a way in the aftermath I find repulsive. These are authors known to me by the genres they write, goodreads feeds, twitter feeds, etc.

Nobody has said anything about blacklisting a specific author at all. I am not naming them. Some I have already read some of their books, I will no more.

Just wanted to clear this up before it keeps spreading in this thread about a suppose blacklisting of a specific author that never happened. Its one of those things that bugs me a lot when stuff like that gets said.

There are also readers I have unfollowed over this. I can't trust their recommendations anymore.
My point being that you can't know how a person feels about rape and child abuse based on their feelings about a book. Assuming they support those things is like assuming people who liked Dexter are pro-serial killing.

The reason why I shared info about my personal life is to show it's quite possible to have no problem with the existence of this book, while having all the reasons in the world to hate rape and child abuse and the people that commit those crimes.

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Online EC Sheedy

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #170 on: August 10, 2017, 04:16:46 PM »
And I too will defend to the death her right to write it, and to have it read, but it should NEVER have been in the Romance category on Amazon. The state of the Romance category on Amazon these days is ****ing APPALLING.

This!

Ye olde categorization issue has once again raised its misshapen head. From my second-hand info about what the book that started this thread is about, it is NOT even close to being a romance. Maybe there should be a category called Deviant Attractions. That sounds fair--unless there's a mob out there who think incestuous relationships aren't deviant. The more I read about this the less I know for sure.
 

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Offline lilywhite

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #171 on: August 10, 2017, 04:37:18 PM »
This!

Ye olde categorization issue has once again raised its misshapen head. From my second-hand info about what the book that started this thread is about, it is NOT even close to being a romance. Maybe there should be a category called Deviant Attractions. That sounds fair--unless there's a mob out there who think incestuous relationships aren't deviant. The more I read about this the less I know for sure.

Yet another situation that would never have happened if Amazon would:
1) Give customers an ADULT switch/filter
2) STOP hiding/dungeoning erotica once that filter is off
3) Police its damn categories.

I'm not excusing the miscategorization -- I'll straight-up say that I think putting something like this in Romance was an absolutely sh*t-tastic idea -- but Amazon has set up the situation where people who write this kind of thing feel that the only way they can get any visibility is to get it into the regular romance categories.

Offline Nic

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #172 on: August 10, 2017, 04:43:53 PM »
I find it strange to see some pushing back or judging those of us that are attempting to make a broader point that moves beyond this one book. You're making a broader argument yourself, one that isn't tied solely to the book this thread was created for. Why should I be disqualified from doing the same because I have no interest in reading it? I haven't made any arguments about that specific book.

That was what I told you to do: read this book and read a few others just like it, to get an idea what people are talking about here. What I am saying is inherent to the type of book we speak about. If you don't know the content of these books, you've no idea what you are responding to.

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Especially considering no one knows what she's done. I mean, we know she wrote a book and many find it beyond tasteless, but no one knows how that will affect any individual who reads it or their actions thereafter. Like Shelley said, you can't know. It's a little Minority Report-ish to think there is a solution to the problem at hand.

And I said finding a solution is a different discussion entirely. To engage in it, you first have to own up to being responsible. That is what I am reacting to: people who state they aren't responsible in the slightest, yet rake in the money and claim responsibility only, and absolutely only, if they happen to have done good. In all other instances they conveniently push it at the customer. The funny thing is that were any other producer or retailer to behave just so and sold defective or harmful wares, the screaming could be heard beyond the orbit of Mars. I see no reason why authors should be entirely exempt from product liability.

Offline Nic

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #173 on: August 10, 2017, 04:46:51 PM »
I'll straight-up say that I think putting something like this in Romance was an absolutely sh*t-tastic idea

I disagree. This book is correctly placed in dark romance and dark erotica. All these books are considered romances, erotic romances or erotica by their readers. They are not considered anything else, so they are right where they belong according to their authors and readers.

Online kcmorgan

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #174 on: August 10, 2017, 04:48:16 PM »
This!

Ye olde categorization issue has once again raised its misshapen head. From my second-hand info about what the book that started this thread is about, it is NOT even close to being a romance. Maybe there should be a category called Deviant Attractions. That sounds fair--unless there's a mob out there who think incestuous relationships aren't deviant. The more I read about this the less I know for sure.
I'd argue it is clearly a Romance. It might be an f-ed up Romance, but it's still a Romance. The genre is defined as stories about a developing relationship between two or more people with a HEA or HFN ending. All the obstacles they overcome are obstacles to them being together. Sure those obstacles are things like...her mother...and that might make some people nauseated, but it's still an obstacle to their developing relationship. It also has an HEA ending. And there is already a subcategory in Romance for the "deviants", it's called Dark Romance.

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