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Taerak's Void
by M. R. Mathias

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Kindle Edition published 2017-07-09
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Taerak's Void
(Book One of Fantastica)
A new series by multiple award winning author, M. R. Mathias

After finding a strange medallion and some maps with markings that no one in his village can understand, Braxton Bray decides to take it all to the Hall of Scholars in the kingdom's capital. But greed is everywhere. Braxton and a tough young female caravan guard named Nixy are forced to run for their lives, for someone else wants what Braxton found and is willing to go to great lengths to take it from him.

With a hefty, kingdom wide, bounty on their heads, not even the great wizards of the Sorcerious can help them. Left with nothing but each other, Braxton and Nixy have no choice but to get on a ship and go on an adventure that will take them places they would have otherwise never imagined. Elves, dwarves, giant gothicans, and trolls, treacherous forests on distant shores, love, death, terror, and magic all await...

Author Topic: So...about the banned book thing  (Read 12535 times)  

Offline Markus Croft

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #175 on: August 10, 2017, 03:45:02 PM »
I think that's more the Facebook conversation and the authors' followers. I haven't really followed that, though. It's marketing, so expect the flames will be fanned for a while.

I feel like the case of this specific book is just shock marketing that did spark a broader argument. And after stepping away for a bit and thinking about responsibility, particularly in romance fiction, which surely means less dubious consent and outright rape, definitely the stuff in this book, my feeling really boils down to the distasteful truth that once again, the default is victim-blaming. Rape and rape culture is being laid at the feet of women as their responsibility for the fantasies they have and the stuff they write and read. I'm sure it's not intentional, but there it is. When are the men who rape going to be the ones blamed instead of the women who might write or read something considered deviant in a fantasy novel?

Like I said, there's progress, but we still have a ways to go.

I'm not on Facebook so thanks for the context.

And I agree, we certainly do have a ways to go. I didn't see that layer until you pointed it out, so thanks for that.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 03:56:37 PM by Markus Croft »

Offline kcmorgan

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #176 on: August 10, 2017, 04:13:12 PM »
I don't really see any author in this thread attacked. Unless I missed that post or was deleted as I did read the whole thread. In case the "blacklisting" comment is in regards to my post about putting authors on a list. I don't know who you are kcmorgan, nor do I know what you write or have seen your books. Nor have I seen you out there as far as I can tell buddying up to that author in question.

I am putting authors on a list that are known authors, no offense meant. Known authors that have acted in a way in the aftermath I find repulsive. These are authors known to me by the genres they write, goodreads feeds, twitter feeds, etc.

Nobody has said anything about blacklisting a specific author at all. I am not naming them. Some I have already read some of their books, I will no more.

Just wanted to clear this up before it keeps spreading in this thread about a suppose blacklisting of a specific author that never happened. Its one of those things that bugs me a lot when stuff like that gets said.

There are also readers I have unfollowed over this. I can't trust their recommendations anymore.
My point being that you can't know how a person feels about rape and child abuse based on their feelings about a book. Assuming they support those things is like assuming people who liked Dexter are pro-serial killing.

The reason why I shared info about my personal life is to show it's quite possible to have no problem with the existence of this book, while having all the reasons in the world to hate rape and child abuse and the people that commit those crimes.

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Online EC Sheedy

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #177 on: August 10, 2017, 04:16:46 PM »
And I too will defend to the death her right to write it, and to have it read, but it should NEVER have been in the Romance category on Amazon. The state of the Romance category on Amazon these days is ****ing APPALLING.

This!

Ye olde categorization issue has once again raised its misshapen head. From my second-hand info about what the book that started this thread is about, it is NOT even close to being a romance. Maybe there should be a category called Deviant Attractions. That sounds fair--unless there's a mob out there who think incestuous relationships aren't deviant. The more I read about this the less I know for sure.
 

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Offline lilywhite

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #178 on: August 10, 2017, 04:37:18 PM »
This!

Ye olde categorization issue has once again raised its misshapen head. From my second-hand info about what the book that started this thread is about, it is NOT even close to being a romance. Maybe there should be a category called Deviant Attractions. That sounds fair--unless there's a mob out there who think incestuous relationships aren't deviant. The more I read about this the less I know for sure.

Yet another situation that would never have happened if Amazon would:
1) Give customers an ADULT switch/filter
2) STOP hiding/dungeoning erotica once that filter is off
3) Police its damn categories.

I'm not excusing the miscategorization -- I'll straight-up say that I think putting something like this in Romance was an absolutely sh*t-tastic idea -- but Amazon has set up the situation where people who write this kind of thing feel that the only way they can get any visibility is to get it into the regular romance categories.

Offline Nic

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #179 on: August 10, 2017, 04:43:53 PM »
I find it strange to see some pushing back or judging those of us that are attempting to make a broader point that moves beyond this one book. You're making a broader argument yourself, one that isn't tied solely to the book this thread was created for. Why should I be disqualified from doing the same because I have no interest in reading it? I haven't made any arguments about that specific book.

That was what I told you to do: read this book and read a few others just like it, to get an idea what people are talking about here. What I am saying is inherent to the type of book we speak about. If you don't know the content of these books, you've no idea what you are responding to.

Quote
Especially considering no one knows what she's done. I mean, we know she wrote a book and many find it beyond tasteless, but no one knows how that will affect any individual who reads it or their actions thereafter. Like Shelley said, you can't know. It's a little Minority Report-ish to think there is a solution to the problem at hand.

And I said finding a solution is a different discussion entirely. To engage in it, you first have to own up to being responsible. That is what I am reacting to: people who state they aren't responsible in the slightest, yet rake in the money and claim responsibility only, and absolutely only, if they happen to have done good. In all other instances they conveniently push it at the customer. The funny thing is that were any other producer or retailer to behave just so and sold defective or harmful wares, the screaming could be heard beyond the orbit of Mars. I see no reason why authors should be entirely exempt from product liability.

Offline Nic

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #180 on: August 10, 2017, 04:46:51 PM »
I'll straight-up say that I think putting something like this in Romance was an absolutely sh*t-tastic idea

I disagree. This book is correctly placed in dark romance and dark erotica. All these books are considered romances, erotic romances or erotica by their readers. They are not considered anything else, so they are right where they belong according to their authors and readers.

Offline kcmorgan

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #181 on: August 10, 2017, 04:48:16 PM »
This!

Ye olde categorization issue has once again raised its misshapen head. From my second-hand info about what the book that started this thread is about, it is NOT even close to being a romance. Maybe there should be a category called Deviant Attractions. That sounds fair--unless there's a mob out there who think incestuous relationships aren't deviant. The more I read about this the less I know for sure.
I'd argue it is clearly a Romance. It might be an f-ed up Romance, but it's still a Romance. The genre is defined as stories about a developing relationship between two or more people with a HEA or HFN ending. All the obstacles they overcome are obstacles to them being together. Sure those obstacles are things like...her mother...and that might make some people nauseated, but it's still an obstacle to their developing relationship. It also has an HEA ending. And there is already a subcategory in Romance for the "deviants", it's called Dark Romance.

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #182 on: August 10, 2017, 04:53:09 PM »
I don't know. My mom had stacks of Harlequin Romances from floor to ceiling and half of them were about pirates/sheiks/secret agents/princes (powerful, dangerous men) whisking a woman away from her life and ravishing her. These books have been around for as long as I can remember and make up a fair amount of the market.  The terminology has changed, but plots have remained pretty much the same except the millionaires have become billionaires. Maybe it's important to look at /why/ these kinds of stories sell so well. I mean if it's just horrible disgusting stuff that no one should think of, then why are so many women reading them? I mean they are basically stories where a guy sweeps in, solves all a woman's problems, overcomes her hangups and makes her happy forever. How anyone could think this could be misconstrued with actual rape is beyond me. It's nothing like it. And if we think that men will read these and be influenced by them, do we also think that they'll go around buying the women they rape houses and cars and trying to die for them because that's in these books too?

I think action/adventures where female characters serve as little more than a reward for completing the quest would have more influence on rape culture than dubcon does. (I don't mean all action/adventure does this, I'm just talking about the ones that do). When I see cases of date rape, it seems like the rapist didn't get that the woman was a feeling/thinking human being. But Romance, even dubcon, centers on the woman's thoughts and emotions, so much so that sometimes the men don't even get viewpoint chapters. And what I understand about the psychology of rapists leads me to believe they'd have zero interest in reading dubcon, it actually goes against what rapists find appealing about rape. You can see this in the contrast of rape porn, where often the woman is crying, tortured [redacted because I was going waaay too deep, lets just say it gets bad]. Rape victims are more likely to read dubcon than rapists, so I doubt it's having a serious impact on influencing rape culture.
It's okay. I've been called worse. And threats to blacklist me don't phase me because no one reads my books anyway.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but something struck me regarding your example.  You briefly touch on this later in your post, but I'm pretty sure that these Harlequin romances didn't explicitly describe the "ravishing" of the women.  On one hand, that really doesn't matter: ravishment (or rape) is ravishment (or rape).  On the other hand, though, describing the violent act in lurid, explicit (and violent) detail makes it a whole different ball game.  IMHO.  YMMV.
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Offline ebbrown

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #183 on: August 10, 2017, 04:58:57 PM »
I do find it incredibly disingenuous for her to post on FB how this backlash has her in tears, but there's now a tab at the top of her website labeled BANNED and her addressing of the problem on her website and in replies to various Facebook posts involve a lot of Haha and LOL. And now this thing Rosalind's posted, about her "Too Soon?" post? It's just ridiculous. DOn't tell me you only intended it to ever be for its (normally) niche audience, and then milk the controversy and "bullying" for every penny you can get while literally laughing all the way to the bank.

And I too will defend to the death her right to write it, and to have it read, but it should NEVER have been in the Romance category on Amazon. The state of the Romance category on Amazon these days is ****ing APPALLING.

Wow. Unbelievable.
I keep starting to reply here & then I erase it.
The effort that appears to have been put into orchestrating this is unbelievable. I feel foolish for looking at it as anything but a publicity stunt at this point. 😡

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #184 on: August 10, 2017, 05:06:16 PM »
I disagree. This book is correctly placed in dark romance and dark erotica. All these books are considered romances, erotic romances or erotica by their readers. They are not considered anything else, so they are right where they belong according to their authors and readers.

What? There's no dark romance category on Amazon.

Offline kcmorgan

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #185 on: August 10, 2017, 05:07:32 PM »
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but something struck me regarding your example.  You briefly touch on this later in your post, but I'm pretty sure that these Harlequin romances didn't explicitly describe the "ravishing" of the women.  On one hand, that really doesn't matter: ravishment (or rape) is ravishment (or rape).  On the other hand, though, describing the violent act in lurid, explicit (and violent) detail makes it a whole different ball game.  IMHO.  YMMV.
Those old books definitely described these things in vivid detail. Sometimes flowery language was used that would make us giggle today, but it was definitely details. The scenes haven't changed much at all actually.

Which is why I want to ask about your next point, you say "violent", do you mean in a way that rape is violent by default or are you imagining the women in these stories are being physically harmed? Because most of the time they aren't. They are either blackmailed, or coerced, sometimes held down, but I can't think of examples where they are physically harmed by the MMCs. Usually these MMCs will kill anyone that attempts the harm the FMCs.

And we are almost always in the FMC's head during these scenes, and they are usually thinking about how good it feels. Even if the book we're discussing, we're in her head, and she's thinking about how he's doing this to establish his dominance, and she likes it, and it's not like /real/ rape. I actually LOLed when I read that because from that line alone the book sounded more like a parody of dark romances than an actual one.

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Offline she-la-ti-da

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #186 on: August 10, 2017, 05:54:56 PM »
People have pointed out that she was 16. And that yeah, it's statutory rape but it's consensual statutory rape. NO ONE has said that that makes the content completely okay, nor that they would condone it in the real world. They've just corrected misinformation. It's not the same as thinking fathers shagging their teenage daughters IRL is a-okay. It's really, really not.


OMG. There is no consent in this circumstance (if it were real life). More than one person has said they think this is romantic, that they think the author is awesome and Amazon is a big old meanie for blocking the book. Look at the authors FB, or site. It's all there. People here may be holding back, due to forum decorum, but it's a sad state when someone admits they think molesting and raping a child for sexual gratification is okay. My ignore list is going to be full before the end of this matter.

I'm with Usedtoposthere and ebbrown, there are some disgusting attitudes being shown, and that it's mostly from women is astounding. It would be one thing to commiserate because the book was blocked, but to praise the author for writing this stuff? For deliberately pushing the limits to deliberately get the book "banned"? I think some of you need to sit back and think this through. If you agree it's terribly sexy and romantic, keep it to yourself and run to the author's site and buy the book to support her.

There is an issue here which the defenders want to gloss over, when they bring up rape fantasies and the like:  these involve grown women, not children who are groomed by predators. That is called child porn, in case you don't get the difference. None of those Harlequin books were about children being raped. For God's sake. If you're (in general, no one in particular) turned on by dub con or non con, go for it. If you think it's okay between a grown man and a child, you need help. Seriously. Pull out the cattle prod if you please, mods, but that's the unvarnished truth. There is something sick in defending someone writing a romance about a man grooming and raping a child.
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Offline RedFoxUF

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #187 on: August 10, 2017, 06:03:08 PM »
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but something struck me regarding your example.  You briefly touch on this later in your post, but I'm pretty sure that these Harlequin romances didn't explicitly describe the "ravishing" of the women.  On one hand, that really doesn't matter: ravishment (or rape) is ravishment (or rape).  On the other hand, though, describing the violent act in lurid, explicit (and violent) detail makes it a whole different ball game.  IMHO.  YMMV.

Yeeeah I'm gonna guess you weren't reading those books. They were pretty raunchy. They still are. And they have all sorts of TOS violations in them that they can get away with.

Offline kcmorgan

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #188 on: August 10, 2017, 06:08:40 PM »

OMG. There is no consent in this circumstance (if it were real life). More than one person has said they think this is romantic, that they think the author is awesome and Amazon is a big old meanie for blocking the book. Look at the authors FB, or site. It's all there. People here may be holding back, due to forum decorum, but it's a sad state when someone admits they think molesting and raping a child for sexual gratification is okay. My ignore list is going to be full before the end of this matter.

I'm with Usedtoposthere and ebbrown, there are some disgusting attitudes being shown, and that it's mostly from women is astounding. It would be one thing to commiserate because the book was blocked, but to praise the author for writing this stuff? For deliberately pushing the limits to deliberately get the book "banned"? I think some of you need to sit back and think this through. If you agree it's terribly sexy and romantic, keep it to yourself and run to the author's site and buy the book to support her.

There is an issue here which the defenders want to gloss over, when they bring up rape fantasies and the like:  these involve grown women, not children who are groomed by predators. That is called child porn, in case you don't get the difference. None of those Harlequin books were about children being raped. For God's sake. If you're (in general, no one in particular) turned on by dub con or non con, go for it. If you think it's okay between a grown man and a child, you need help. Seriously. Pull out the cattle prod if you please, mods, but that's the unvarnished truth. There is something sick in defending someone writing a romance about a man grooming and raping a child.
I'll admit, I haven't read the book, but from my understanding from summaries it contains pseudo-incest, noncon with bad guys, dubcon with the MMC who is a 40 year old man and she's a seventeen year old girl. If she was one year older would you be calling it "child porn"? I think it's disingenuous to suggest dubcon with a seventeen year old is the same as the rape of a prepubescent child. And I personally find that comparison harmful. I don't want people imagining consenting seventeen year olds when they hear the term "child molester" because at that point it loses all meaning.

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Online EC Sheedy

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #189 on: August 10, 2017, 06:10:12 PM »
I'd argue it is clearly a Romance. It might be an f-ed up Romance, but it's still a Romance. The genre is defined as stories about a developing relationship between two or more people with a HEA or HFN ending. All the obstacles they overcome are obstacles to them being together. Sure those obstacles are things like...her mother...and that might make some people nauseated, but it's still an obstacle to their developing relationship. It also has an HEA ending. And there is already a subcategory in Romance for the "deviants", it's called Dark Romance.

Color me stupid. I did not know Dark Romance was where a reader goes for rape fantasy, incest stories, or perhaps extreme kink. I've learned something. I guess I always thought Dark Romance encompassed horror elements, life-threatening events, suspense elements, or deeper angst (back story). Like I said, I've learned something. Thanks.

I must reexamine my concept of love and romance, which I always associate with old words like commitment to the other, sacrifice, honor, and fidelity. Gadzooks, I'm old.  :-[
 

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Offline Shelley K

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #190 on: August 10, 2017, 06:10:21 PM »
Quote
it's a sad state when someone admits they think molesting and raping a child for sexual gratification is okay.

Who said they think raping a child for sexual gratification is okay? Who? I'll bet you a million bazillion dollars not a single person has said that.

The rape of a child and things happening to a character that doesn't exist in a book are not the same thing.

You can think it's gross that some people write it or read about it, I might even agree with you, and you can express that--free speech applies to criticism of free speech. I am all for all of that. But for the love of god please stop projecting acceptance or desire for the real-life acts onto the people defending fiction.


« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 06:26:13 PM by Shelley K »

Offline kcmorgan

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #191 on: August 10, 2017, 06:17:39 PM »
Color me stupid. I did not know Dark Romance was where a reader goes for rape fantasy, incest stories, or perhaps extreme kink. I've learned something. I guess I always thought Dark Romance encompassed horror elements, life-threatening events, suspense elements, or deeper angst (back story). Like I said, I've learned something. Thanks.

I must reexamine my concept of love and romance, which I always associate with old words like commitment to the other, sacrifice, honor, and fidelity. Gadzooks, I'm old.  :-[
You're not stupid. There is nothing wrong with not knowing the contents of books you've have no interest in reading. I couldn't tell you what's in most Westerns.

And while Romance has to be about a developing relationship, there is no requirement that it has to be a healthy one. For one, we'd never agree on what qualifies (though we are pretty much on the same page about what certainly doesn't). And also, I find the unhealthy ones to be more interesting.

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #192 on: August 10, 2017, 06:23:41 PM »

OMG. There is no consent in this circumstance (if it were real life). More than one person has said they think this is romantic, that they think the author is awesome and Amazon is a big old meanie for blocking the book. Look at the authors FB, or site. It's all there. People here may be holding back, due to forum decorum, but it's a sad state when someone admits they think molesting and raping a child for sexual gratification is okay. My ignore list is going to be full before the end of this matter.

I'm with Usedtoposthere and ebbrown, there are some disgusting attitudes being shown, and that it's mostly from women is astounding. It would be one thing to commiserate because the book was blocked, but to praise the author for writing this stuff? For deliberately pushing the limits to deliberately get the book "banned"? I think some of you need to sit back and think this through. If you agree it's terribly sexy and romantic, keep it to yourself and run to the author's site and buy the book to support her.

There is an issue here which the defenders want to gloss over, when they bring up rape fantasies and the like:  these involve grown women, not children who are groomed by predators. That is called child porn, in case you don't get the difference. None of those Harlequin books were about children being raped. For God's sake. If you're (in general, no one in particular) turned on by dub con or non con, go for it. If you think it's okay between a grown man and a child, you need help. Seriously. Pull out the cattle prod if you please, mods, but that's the unvarnished truth. There is something sick in defending someone writing a romance about a man grooming and raping a child.
Thank for for saying this. And I hope this stays up because it needed to be said. Again it seems. Holy moly I am hitting head on desk along with usedtoposthere. The length to go to defend this stuff is just, I don't have words. I can't even.

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #193 on: August 10, 2017, 06:34:18 PM »
Yeeeah I'm gonna guess you weren't reading those books. They were pretty raunchy. They still are. And they have all sorts of TOS violations in them that they can get away with.

Might depend on how far back you're talking.  I doubt the 1960s Harlequins talked about the man's c*** and her "wet place."  But they published thousands of books over the decades, so I guess anything's possible.  I just know the romance and sexual tension was what all the readers loved.
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Offline Markus Croft

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #194 on: August 10, 2017, 06:38:14 PM »
That was what I told you to do: read this book and read a few others just like it, to get an idea what people are talking about here. What I am saying is inherent to the type of book we speak about. If you don't know the content of these books, you've no idea what you are responding to.

I don't have to read this specific book to talk about the broader points I and others, including yourself, have brought up in this thread. You circling back and repeating what you think I need to know in order to have a valid point about the broader issue makes as little sense as it did the first time. But okay.

And I said finding a solution is a different discussion entirely. To engage in it, you first have to own up to being responsible. That is what I am reacting to: people who state they aren't responsible in the slightest, yet rake in the money and claim responsibility only, and absolutely only, if they happen to have done good. In all other instances they conveniently push it at the customer. The funny thing is that were any other producer or retailer to behave just so and sold defective or harmful wares, the screaming could be heard beyond the orbit of Mars. I see no reason why authors should be entirely exempt from product liability.

Our back and forth is going nowhere fast. I realize that now. I'm out.

Offline RedFoxUF

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #195 on: August 10, 2017, 06:41:19 PM »
Might depend on how far back you're talking.  I doubt the 1960s Harlequins talked about the man's c*** and her "wet place."  But they published thousands of books over the decades, so I guess anything's possible.  I just know the romance and sexual tension was what all the readers loved.

Probably not useful to apply a 1960s filter to this b/c romance is not stuck in a time warp and there was a heck of a lot of offensive porn published in the 60s as well btw...that was how you got it before the internet. I've seen the books as I have a relative who sells vintage books and those are, apparently, collectible. Horrible misogynistic stuff, full of rape.

Look up some Beatrice Small. Romance has always been full of dark kinks. There's less hiding/sugarcoating now but all these elements have been present in romance for decades. At least now it's out in the open.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 06:48:59 PM by RedFoxUF »

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #196 on: August 10, 2017, 06:41:29 PM »
There is an issue here which the defenders want to gloss over, when they bring up rape fantasies and the like:  these involve grown women, not children who are groomed by predators. That is called child porn, in case you don't get the difference. None of those Harlequin books were about children being raped. For God's sake. If you're (in general, no one in particular) turned on by dub con or non con, go for it. If you think it's okay between a grown man and a child, you need help. Seriously. Pull out the cattle prod if you please, mods, but that's the unvarnished truth. There is something sick in defending someone writing a romance about a man grooming and raping a child.

Exactly. If what is being said about this book is true, the author could be/likely is in violation of laws and could face criminal charges for disseminating it. Free speech is not as "free" as some people think it is. The Supreme Court ruled that states can ban selling material that portrays children in sexual situations. Might want to check the Miller test as well. And that's in the US, land of free speech. Other countries I'd think would be more strict.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 06:48:30 PM by paranormal_kitty »

Offline K.B.

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #197 on: August 10, 2017, 06:43:11 PM »
I disagree. This book is correctly placed in dark romance and dark erotica. All these books are considered romances, erotic romances or erotica by their readers. They are not considered anything else, so they are right where they belong according to their authors and readers.

I don't know why I'm even getting involved here because emotions are high.

But... I think Nic brings up a valid point when it comes to categorization. Whether we like it or not, I think modern publishing including both authors and readers are changing the scope and definitions of romance. We've been conditioned to believe that romance is something, and there are rules to that something that seem to be becoming murky.

Now, as for this book. I have no interest in reading it. I personally think it's gross, and am rather infurtiated at the justification the author decided to use as if it lessens the degree of perverseness in any way. As an adopted child, the implication that adoptive parents are not really parents is enough to make my blood boil.

At the end of the day, this just is not something I have any interest in reading or really discussing. I think it's important though to not use one's opinions on this book to form a basis for who that person is. It's important to not write narratives about other people by filling in the blanks.

Just for clarity; I think it's gross. I think the entire marketing strategy centered on the idea that controversy would equal sales. I think it's tasteless to release this book with only a vague warning, practically begging for people to read it like some kind of macabre dare. Based on the title, cover, and blurb, I was actually looking forward to this book. Not now. Not ever. But can we please stop tearing each other apart over this?

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Offline Shelley K

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #198 on: August 10, 2017, 06:45:05 PM »
Quote
There is something sick in defending someone writing

See, the sentence ends there for me. I don't care what the writing is about. I don't care if I think it's the grossest and most disturbing thing imaginable, because it's not real, and art has to be protected. The stuff I like doesn't need first amendment protections, after all, only offensive speech does. I don't have to read it, nobody has to sell it, but the writer has the right to create it until the jackboots come out and laws are passed and enforced saying otherwise. That'll probably happen one day, and what can be written will get narrower and narrower over time. It's not about defending fictional rape. It's about defending fiction, period. I remain amazed that writers and readers who love words don't understand that.

If defending free speech makes me a sicko like so many people here in this thread have implied or stated, welp, think what you want, I'll hold my right to free speech against my bosom until that right's stripped away. Of course, it probably won't need to be stripped at all. People will hand that right over in exchange for never being offended or disgusted, and by the time people realize what's happened there'll be nothing left but the crying. 

Offline Markus Croft

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Re: So...about the banned book thing
« Reply #199 on: August 10, 2017, 06:52:49 PM »
It's not about defending fictional rape. It's about defending fiction, period. I remain amazed that writers and readers who love words don't understand that.

If I was Lawrence O'Donnell, Shelley K. would get the last word.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 06:55:48 PM by Markus Croft »