Author Topic: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?  (Read 6392 times)  

Offline AlexaKang

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #150 on: August 15, 2017, 09:24:28 AM »
For me, it isn't about answers. It really is about asking the questions. We are writers. We should think about how what we write influences our readers. The arts do not exist in a void. They both reflect the world we live in and the world we want. So thinking about concepts of consent, concepts of inclusiveness, have value. I don't think anyone is saying the concept of the surprise kiss should be eradicated from the universe, but making it less prevalent and encouraging more open consent is I think a good thing.

Consider the Bechel test, which emerged in the mid-80's. Plenty of people still get bent out of shape by the concept, but THINKING about it has changed in a positive way how people portray female interactions and has encouraged people to think about media in a new way. Nobody (nobody sane, anyway) expects every single form of media to always meet the Bechel test. But thinking about it improves our work as a whole.

While I see your point about the argument that mass media can influence people, and I don't disagree with that argument per se, I happen to always support the flip side of the argument that tells people you are capable of making up your own minds and you need to stop relying on external forces to dictate your actions. I don't think either option is wrong. I just personally don't like it when there's no balance and people are told that XYZ made me do it or I thought I should be this way because of XYZ. I take the position that I trust people to be able to be able to tell what's fantasy and what's reality. To me, that option is more empowering, it places more personal responsibility on people to think for themsleves, and elevates everyone (even acknowledging that there will be dense morons who fall through the crack), instead of pointing at outside forces all the time.

Also, I understand the good intent and the support for what you're saying. It's not a bad thing to raise issues. However, it can (and imo too often) tip over to a point where now we're telling people they can't think for themselves and they aren't in control of their own lives and minds. I don't think what you are saying is wrong. But I don't prefer it because I don't find that position very empowering, too dwelling on being a victim, and it can also do more harm than good in that respect. I'll just leave it at that because I'm not sure if I'm now digressing to beyond the scope of this thread and Becca already asked me not to.

Going back to writing fictional romance plots, where I stand, I prefer stories (heck, I prefer my own life) to be where romance and love can happen and two people can be treating each other right without having to be in constant fear of lawsuits and having to sign contracts or explicitly ask for permission for a kiss where two people are in fact attracted to each other and want to love each other. It is a fact that love and romance can and does happen this way, and I guess I would say it's just as important to show that those of us who have experienced that can share how there are thousands of ways life and love can happen. A code of conduct in relationships cannot govern every possible scenario. There are too many shades of gray when people fall in love.

When all's said and done, the people who intend to harm will do so whether or not a question is asked or not. And a woman whose confused may say yes kiss me and then regret it afterward. My own belief is that I trust two reasonable, well-intended people can work it out for themselves how they want things to be between them, without the world telling them how they should behave in their private relationship. That's the story I want to tell. Asking me to write something else is asking me to write something not genuinely me and something I don't truly buy into. I'll just sound preachy and fail.

On a side note about what happened to your niece -- I hope you won't hate me for saying that I do think it is the case that the boy likes her. I think it's ok and honest to acknowledge that this is what little boys do when they're too young to process their attraction to a girl. The fact that we now see that action through the social expectations of the 21st century does not change the fact that little boys act that way until they're taught not to. (To be clear, I'm definitely not saying if some teenagers or college guys rape a girl it should be dimissed and excused as boys will be boys. I'm talking about little kids here who really are too young and don't know better). I would NOT, however, dismiss it as nothing the way the teacher did. If I was the mom, I would be upset at the teacher and the school too. But I would also try to work it out with the boy's parents in a friendly manner to resolve the situation. I would not immediately demand that the boy be punished either. Further, I would explain to my daughter that probably the boy does like her at the same time I explain to her that he was wrong to pull her hair and hurt her. What both children need is guidance, not adults jumping over each other on who's right.


Offline AlexaKang

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #151 on: August 15, 2017, 09:33:01 AM »
Interesting thread. The first thing that came to mind for me is something that used to be very common in romance novels, particularly in Harlequins--when you'd have a heroine and hero that were initially super attracted but at odds, even hating each other and the hero decides to 'punish' her with a kiss--which of course morphs from hatred to wonderful in an instant when she realizes how much she enjoys his touch.  I've always found that particular kiss annoying and insulting, but it was very common and popular and I think it feeds into women's fantasies to be swept away by a hero. I'm not a fan of it though. The idea that you could punish someone with a kiss always struck me as idiotic--and it would often be described with the word punish.

I wrote about the this trope earlier but without the "punish". I never read Harlequin romances. The punish bit turns me off too. Now if I were writing a story with this trope, I'd have the guy overcomed with emotions and in the heat of the argument (which is the heat of the sexual tension) kisses her. It would not be a punishment, but more because he's not perfect and he's overwhelmed with the emotions he feels for her at the moment and he totally lost himself. To me, that's very sexy.

Playing armchair psychologist here: I think the "punish" bit is more to give women an excuse to feel lust and sexual desires. Even today, it still happens that women feel pressured to not have sexual desires. Today it's called "slut shaming", right?  So in those older stories, the "punished" bit comes in to alleviate the guilt women felt for wanting something sexual. It's saying to her: see, it was a punishment. It's ok because it's a punishment and you don't really have sexual desires, so you don't have to feel bad.

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #152 on: August 15, 2017, 09:37:43 AM »
Agreed. I can't say I've enjoyed this thread, even though I've had difficulty staying away as a reader of it. I will say this: I'm going to have to take a break from this site, because the last two days, I've found way too many people getting into my head as a writer and reader. Now I feel like people are telling me what a terrible person I am because I happen to really enjoy the old style bodice ripper books. I mean, I love them as a reader and I do have college age kids and I've had a great many talks with both about real life responsibility when it comes to sex and romance. But, my god, I read romance for fun, and no matter how many times it gets said in this thread to write what you want or read what you want, it also gets that "but you will be judged" comment too, and it really upsets me to think I can't even have private, personal, secret fantasies that I explore in *fiction* as a reader and writer that if I ever tell anyone about they're going to say I'm a horrible, terrible person who thinks rape is okay.

It's just... upsetting and ridiculous.

But I guess that's what peer pressure is for. Conform or be judged.

In fact, let me be even clearer, I'm crying as I write this. I just find it so upsetting.

Lynn,

I hope you know there are many people that agree with you.  Romances are for fun, escape, idealized situations as well as those we'd never pursue in real life.  I love Miss Fisher Murder Mysteries, but I doubt I'd ever chase anyone along a roof top in heels.  She's also wealthy and while she does support her causes, she's hardly out there feeding and housing the poor of Melbourne.  Who cares?  It's fiction!  It's not real.  It's a lot of fun and a great time. 

If authors had to write what was socially acceptable...what about murder mysteries, thrillers, serial killers, sci-fi, fantasy...well the list goes on and on. 

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Offline EvanPickering

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #153 on: August 15, 2017, 10:26:22 AM »

I think this is actually where reality lies in most normal cases.

Evan, looks like you got a good grasp of how romances go. If you ever decide to take a break from writing dystopia and churn out a romance story, let me know. I'll tell my subscribers and give you an instant audience.

Thanks Alexa you are too kind. I might actually do that. I kind of enjoy writing romance, as long as it's a narrative with it's own story and the romance is just a big part of it. My books have romance in them, I would say. And they're post-apoc.

Believe me, if I decide to foray into writing a romance or romance-heavy story I will absolutely take you up on that. I know how valuable that might be. And I think ladies might like a romance written by a guy every once in awhile :D

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Offline Bards and Sages (Julie)

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #154 on: August 15, 2017, 10:46:44 AM »
On a side note about what happened to your niece -- I hope you won't hate me for saying that I do think it is the case that the boy likes her.

If it is wrong to hit someone or pull someone's hair out of hate, it is also wrong to hit someone or pull someone's hair out of misguided affection. The point is that his REASON for doing it had no bearing on the fact that the school has clear policies about this and they were not followed. Simply because he did this out of "affection" does not, and should not, give him a free pass on the school's discipline policy. THAT is the lesson that needs to be taught. That a man's personal feelings, whether anger or lust, do not give him the right to touch a woman against her will. Not saying the kid should be suspended (that is not the school's policy.) But the school should follow the policy (in school detention for the first offense.).

That said, I completely understand the concern of "mission creep." You start at position A, and then it morphs into something else. But you don't avoid moving toward enlightenment because someone somewhere might go overboard. That is defeatist.

It also isn't about playing the victim. If you don't identify the problem, you can't fix it. Recognizing how the media, both accidentally and deliberately, attempts to control how we think and act is vital to developing self-empowerment, It is how you become a critical consumer of media. Being able to recognize the manipulation is vital to empowerment. Critical thinking is a learned skill.

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Offline AlexaKang

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #155 on: August 15, 2017, 11:42:08 AM »
If it is wrong to hit someone or pull someone's hair out of hate, it is also wrong to hit someone or pull someone's hair out of misguided affection. The point is that his REASON for doing it had no bearing on the fact that the school has clear policies about this and they were not followed. Simply because he did this out of "affection" does not, and should not, give him a free pass on the school's discipline policy. THAT is the lesson that needs to be taught. That a man's personal feelings, whether anger or lust, do not give him the right to touch a woman against her will. Not saying the kid should be suspended (that is not the school's policy.) But the school should follow the policy (in school detention for the first offense.).

That said, I completely understand the concern of "mission creep." You start at position A, and then it morphs into something else. But you don't avoid moving toward enlightenment because someone somewhere might go overboard. That is defeatist.

It also isn't about playing the victim. If you don't identify the problem, you can't fix it. Recognizing how the media, both accidentally and deliberately, attempts to control how we think and act is vital to developing self-empowerment, It is how you become a critical consumer of media. Being able to recognize the manipulation is vital to empowerment. Critical thinking is a learned skill.

Sorry Julie, I didn't mean to imply that the boy's reason was an acceptable excuse or justification. So let me try to clarify.

I think I would explain the reason to my daughter not to excuse the action, but because I want her to understand a wider spectrum of human actions. I wouldn't explain it as an excuse, but I don't want to, in the pursuit of being right, to pretend that we can erase the existence of a human behavior that is innately true (i.e. little boys tease girls to express interest). The existence of it doesn't disappear by us virtually pretending that it can't exist and refusing to acknowledge it. I would just want my daughter to have an even more mature understanding of what was happening, and of course, also why the action itself is not acceptable regardless of motive on the male's part. I would want her to be able to understand boys and men, and grow up being capable of relating to them and their problems. Not just follow a set of PC dictated rules.

Should the boy be punished? Yes according to school rules and that's fine. All kids need to be taught to follow school rules. However, I think we can't treat a confused little boy like an older boy or grown man. It's also situational. If the boy is generally a jerk and a brat, he might need more severe punishment beyond school. If the boy is normally well-behaved and he's picking on a girl because he doesn't know how to process his feelings, I think that some compassion is warranted, instead of just "Here's the rule for respecting women. You breached it and now you must be punished for it." If all that's done is for all the adults to make him feel bad, he won't understand what's happening to him, and I'm not sure the psychological consequences for the boy would be good in the long run. In the long run might make him less capable of relating to girls and women, and ultimately not good for girls and women either. That's what I meant when I said they both are children and need guidance. School punishment aside (which I agree with you should be imposed), I would try to work with his parents to resolve the problem. How to do it would depend on, as I said, what is this boy like on a case by case basis. In cases like this, I don't think simply saying you wronged me and now I demand discipline to feel right, is the solution for both children to grow up to be adults who can relate with and properly respect the opposite gender beyond the surface.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 11:44:25 AM by AlexaKang »

Offline AlexaKang

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #156 on: August 15, 2017, 11:46:42 AM »
Thanks Alexa you are too kind. I might actually do that. I kind of enjoy writing romance, as long as it's a narrative with it's own story and the romance is just a big part of it. My books have romance in them, I would say. And they're post-apoc.

Believe me, if I decide to foray into writing a romance or romance-heavy story I will absolutely take you up on that. I know how valuable that might be. And I think ladies might like a romance written by a guy every once in awhile :D

Evan

No problem! I've read your writing after listening to Ben's podcast and I like it, so yes, I'd recommend it to others. You just drop me a note when you're ready. ;)


Offline Going Incognito

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #157 on: August 15, 2017, 01:14:27 PM »
Now if I were writing a story with this trope, I'd have the guy overcomed with emotions and in the heat of the argument (which is the heat of the sexual tension) kisses her. It would not be a punishment, but more because he's not perfect and he's overwhelmed with the emotions he feels for her at the moment and he totally lost himself. To me, that's very sexy.


He pulled her hair, basically. Only the adult version.
Would that scene have happened if his elementary school 30 years ago treated him differently back then?
I'm wavering on even hitting post, but as I do love a good debate and am gifted/cursed with the ability to see and argue both sides of nearly freaking everything plus I don't take any arrows aimed back at me personally and get offended I probably will.
I've seen stories in the news where the school does over react, suspending hair pullers, expelling kindergarten surprise kissers for assault.
I bet those kids grow up to ask verbal permission. Or maybe not. Maybe they go on to be rapists. I don't pretend to have any answers. I understand teaching a kid that pulling hair isn't the best way to communicate. I understand that the overwhelmed kiss described as above would be bad if it came from someone you didn't want it to come from. But I agree that when I see it or read it done well/right, written as Alexa put it above, that it is sexy as hell.
The poster (I'm on my tiny phone or I'd hunt the post to quote it) who said he's often led to be more aggressive, by the woman, who is making her needs and wants known, that she enjoys that but never comes out and says it is very common. Maybe it's cause we did grow up on bodice rippers, internalizing that Mr. Right or even Mr. Right Now, will just know what we want. I had to purposefully stop reading them cold turkey when I began purposefully looking for a husband because I knew that it was a fantasy that would not serve me well when looking for a real life partner.
But I understand the enjoyment of that trope. I enjoy that trope. There are times I wish that my ask permission husband would pull my hair, (you can read that metaphorically or not, the point is the same for this post) but he doesn't understand that cause he was raised somewhere in the foggy, changing middle between 'trophies are for winners' and 'trophies are for participation.'
Society is changing, it's changing men and women. (It's working too, cause I'm feeling guilty for not adding all the other gender notations here in case someone gets offended, as I may be old school and I may do it 'wrong' way more often than I get it 'right' but I'm never intentionally offensive) And I'm sure those growing up in it won't know any difference as asking permission will most likely come to be the norm, but I'm with Alexa on pretty much everything. Maybe the evolution will be 'better' for humanity. Maybe moving toward Demolition Man is a 'good' thing. I don't know. But I do think it's sad that so much of the messy, emotional passion will be lost.
We're centralizing men and women into a similar middle. We're sawing off all the hard edges. Maybe that's best for a population meant to work closely together in space pods as we kill our planet, I really don't know. Im of the dying wide Wild West cowboy times. It's probably good that I'll go with the bodice ripper as soon neither of us will belong here anyway.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 01:40:56 PM by Going Incognito »

Offline AlexaKang

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #158 on: August 15, 2017, 03:47:13 PM »

He pulled her hair, basically. Only the adult version.
Would that scene have happened if his elementary school 30 years ago treated him differently back then?
I'm wavering on even hitting post, but as I do love a good debate and am gifted/cursed with the ability to see and argue both sides of nearly freaking everything plus I don't take any arrows aimed back at me personally and get offended I probably will.
I've seen stories in the news where the school does over react, suspending hair pullers, expelling kindergarten surprise kissers for assault.
I bet those kids grow up to ask verbal permission. Or maybe not. Maybe they go on to be rapists. I don't pretend to have any answers. I understand teaching a kid that pulling hair isn't the best way to communicate. I understand that the overwhelmed kiss described as above would be bad if it came from someone you didn't want it to come from. But I agree that when I see it or read it done well/right, written as Alexa put it above, that it is sexy as hell.
The poster (I'm on my tiny phone or I'd hunt the post to quote it) who said he's often led to be more aggressive, by the woman, who is making her needs and wants known, that she enjoys that but never comes out and says it is very common. Maybe it's cause we did grow up on bodice rippers, internalizing that Mr. Right or even Mr. Right Now, will just know what we want. I had to purposefully stop reading them cold turkey when I began purposefully looking for a husband because I knew that it was a fantasy that would not serve me well when looking for a real life partner.
But I understand the enjoyment of that trope. I enjoy that trope. There are times I wish that my ask permission husband would pull my hair, (you can read that metaphorically or not, the point is the same for this post) but he doesn't understand that cause he was raised somewhere in the foggy, changing middle between 'trophies are for winners' and 'trophies are for participation.'
Society is changing, it's changing men and women. (It's working too, cause I'm feeling guilty for not adding all the other gender notations here in case someone gets offended, as I may be old school and I may do it 'wrong' way more often than I get it 'right' but I'm never intentionally offensive) And I'm sure those growing up in it won't know any difference as asking permission will most likely come to be the norm, but I'm with Alexa on pretty much everything. Maybe the evolution will be 'better' for humanity. Maybe moving toward Demolition Man is a 'good' thing. I don't know. But I do think it's sad that so much of the messy, emotional passion will be lost.
We're centralizing men and women into a similar middle. We're sawing off all the hard edges. Maybe that's best for a population meant to work closely together in space pods as we kill our planet, I really don't know. Im of the dying wide Wild West cowboy times. It's probably good that I'll go with the bodice ripper as soon neither of us will belong here anyway.


I cannot find enough words to tell you how much I feel exactly the same way. Especially the bolded part.

When I was growing up, the concept of chivalry was already on the way out. And while there were certainly sexist elements that came with it, there were also very good elements about it as to how a boy or a man should be a gentleman if the bad elements could be stripped from it but the good parts could be preserved. But I guess when you throw out the bad parts then the good parts would have to go too. I guess this is why there are no more rom com movies anymore of the kind I used to watch and love. Seems to me that today the rom-com films the 2 people are pretty much genderless and it's pretty much just 2 people with whatever neuroses.

I believe my generation was the last to even experience whatever good parts that were left of it. Yeah, maybe that's good for humanity and I can only accept it that this is how the younger generation wants things to be, so who am I to tell them otherwise. But really the good elements I did experience were good and I'm sad they're gone, and those in younger generations after me would never know what it was like. It doesn't matter I guess. I've accepted it that I should sit in my cave and continue my fossilization process. There's probably where the world would want me to be now anyway.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 03:51:16 PM by AlexaKang »

Offline ellenoc

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #159 on: August 15, 2017, 04:29:58 PM »
Alexa and Icognito, your posts made me laugh because they say a lot of what I'm feeling about the whole thing. Awful as it sounds, I often think, I'm glad I'll be out of here before some of this stuff goes much further. Of course I also sometimes think, I wish I could stick around long enough to see the pendulum swing.

Offline EvanPickering

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #160 on: August 15, 2017, 06:22:38 PM »
No problem! I've read your writing after listening to Ben's podcast and I like it, so yes, I'd recommend it to others. You just drop me a note when you're ready. ;)

Aw jeez thank you kindly! I will do just that.



He pulled her hair, basically. Only the adult version.
Would that scene have happened if his elementary school 30 years ago treated him differently back then?
I'm wavering on even hitting post, but as I do love a good debate and am gifted/cursed with the ability to see and argue both sides of nearly freaking everything plus I don't take any arrows aimed back at me personally and get offended I probably will.
I've seen stories in the news where the school does over react, suspending hair pullers, expelling kindergarten surprise kissers for assault.
I bet those kids grow up to ask verbal permission. Or maybe not. Maybe they go on to be rapists. I don't pretend to have any answers. I understand teaching a kid that pulling hair isn't the best way to communicate. I understand that the overwhelmed kiss described as above would be bad if it came from someone you didn't want it to come from. But I agree that when I see it or read it done well/right, written as Alexa put it above, that it is sexy as hell.
The poster (I'm on my tiny phone or I'd hunt the post to quote it) who said he's often led to be more aggressive, by the woman, who is making her needs and wants known, that she enjoys that but never comes out and says it is very common. Maybe it's cause we did grow up on bodice rippers, internalizing that Mr. Right or even Mr. Right Now, will just know what we want. I had to purposefully stop reading them cold turkey when I began purposefully looking for a husband because I knew that it was a fantasy that would not serve me well when looking for a real life partner.
But I understand the enjoyment of that trope. I enjoy that trope. There are times I wish that my ask permission husband would pull my hair, (you can read that metaphorically or not, the point is the same for this post) but he doesn't understand that cause he was raised somewhere in the foggy, changing middle between 'trophies are for winners' and 'trophies are for participation.'
Society is changing, it's changing men and women. (It's working too, cause I'm feeling guilty for not adding all the other gender notations here in case someone gets offended, as I may be old school and I may do it 'wrong' way more often than I get it 'right' but I'm never intentionally offensive) And I'm sure those growing up in it won't know any difference as asking permission will most likely come to be the norm, but I'm with Alexa on pretty much everything. Maybe the evolution will be 'better' for humanity. Maybe moving toward Demolition Man is a 'good' thing. I don't know. But I do think it's sad that so much of the messy, emotional passion will be lost.
We're centralizing men and women into a similar middle. We're sawing off all the hard edges. Maybe that's best for a population meant to work closely together in space pods as we kill our planet, I really don't know. Im of the dying wide Wild West cowboy times. It's probably good that I'll go with the bodice ripper as soon neither of us will belong here anyway.

I gotta say this and the subsequent responses are very interesting. It doesn't surprise me much, even in my generation it's clear women love men that are more wild and 'powerful' for lack of a better term. But I think in general it is true that we are trending towards men who are far more in touch with their feminine side than ever before. I know for myself and basically everyone one of my male friends that is true. We also have women that are more in touch with their masculine side than ever before.

I sort of wonder about all this though. I can say that there is plenty of classic male dominance in sex these days. But honestly, it is INCREDIBLY confusing even for very aware men like myself. I hear and see so much of feminist movements and female empowerment and equal treatment of genders, but women also seem to want to have sexually/personality dominant or aggressive men. Those two things definitely are not mutually exclusive, but the psychology of it can be challenging for the guy.

Like I said, I'm into being dominant/aggressive when it comes to sex, but I was also raised to be very respectful and considerate to women so it's always a weird double bind in my mind. It's also really hard for the guy sometimes to separate sexual dominance from subconscious ideas of actual dominance/superiority. I consider myself a feminist, but I also believe in being sexually dominant. At what point do those ideas start to conflict in my mind?

I can tell you as a very self-aware dude, there's a war in my head about it often, even if I don't put words to it or if it isn't always conscious. Part of me loves and honors women and thinks they have so much more to offer than our society is willing to accept, and another part of me feels like my girl is mine, and I'm the alpha and I take care of her and she does what I say.

It's a little crazy.

It makes sense, though. The thrill of being with an alpha or a dominant guy makes sense. It's exciting, it's dangerous. It's similar to why guys love crazy girls. Because they [expletive]ing love how crazy they are even though they also kinda hate it. It's sexy and exciting and I think many guys like being dominant as much as many girls like being dominated. It's just a very, very slippery slope for guys. In my opinion, anyway.

Evan

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Offline Going Incognito

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #161 on: August 15, 2017, 07:05:02 PM »
Aw jeez thank you kindly! I will do just that.


I gotta say this and the subsequent responses are very interesting. It doesn't surprise me much, even in my generation it's clear women love men that are more wild and 'powerful' for lack of a better term. But I think in general it is true that we are trending towards men who are far more in touch with their feminine side than ever before. I know for myself and basically everyone one of my male friends that is true. We also have women that are more in touch with their masculine side than ever before.

I sort of wonder about all this though. I can say that there is plenty of classic male dominance in sex these days. But honestly, it is INCREDIBLY confusing even for very aware men like myself. I hear and see so much of feminist movements and female empowerment and equal treatment of genders, but women also seem to want to have sexually/personality dominant or aggressive men. Those two things definitely are not mutually exclusive, but the psychology of it can be challenging for the guy.

Like I said, I'm into being dominant/aggressive when it comes to sex, but I was also raised to be very respectful and considerate to women so it's always a weird double bind in my mind. It's also really hard for the guy sometimes to separate sexual dominance from subconscious ideas of actual dominance/superiority. I consider myself a feminist, but I also believe in being sexually dominant. At what point do those ideas start to conflict in my mind?

I can tell you as a very self-aware dude, there's a war in my head about it often, even if I don't put words to it or if it isn't always conscious. Part of me loves and honors women and thinks they have so much more to offer than our society is willing to accept, and another part of me feels like my girl is mine, and I'm the alpha and I take care of her and she does what I say.

It's a little crazy.

It makes sense, though. The thrill of being with an alpha or a dominant guy makes sense. It's exciting, it's dangerous. It's similar to why guys love crazy girls. Because they [expletive]ing love how crazy they are even though they also kinda hate it. It's sexy and exciting and I think many guys like being dominant as much as many girls like being dominated. It's just a very, very slippery slope for guys. In my opinion, anyway.

Evan

I've only got a second as I've got to pick up the teen who teaches me about now. She's my finger on the pulse of today. She's the one who, when I see a stray dog and I say, "Oh, he's so cute!" tells me, "Are you assuming that dog's gender? What have I told you about that?" Of course, that is a very over the top, teasing me statement that acknowledges that in our personal relationship that she is bringing me into the now and she keeps me from screwing it up too bad, and that's not something she'd say to anyone else, but you get the point.

Anyway, I've got really only a second now, but I think the key to the quoted bits above, from my perspective is that we want it all. We want your support in being a women's lib-type, we want the acknowledgement that we are just as good as a man in the working world, etc, we want you to treat all women, hell- all people, with dignity and respect. But- we also want our man to be the protector, the aggressor. The 'my girl is mine' part does thrill us to our toes, as long as you arent pulling that [crap] in front of our bosses, or our employees, and making us look bad, lol.

I'm sure I didnt say that right and offended a wide swath of people presuming, but I'll have to deal with that when I get back, as the millennial (-ish? I'm not sure her age bracket technically puts her there, I'd have to look it up) I gave birth to and adore needs her mama to come get her.

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #162 on: August 15, 2017, 07:13:48 PM »
Personally when it comes to fiction I don't like to see the dominant/submissive pairings because one always steamrolls the other. My favorite is two alphas together. That's why I wrote the guy in my current series the way he is. The MC is so strong and she has the upper hand over him, so if he were written as submissive or even just a good, gentlemanly guy she would roll right over him. The clash and conflict between them creates a lot more chemistry. Then I read that blog post and some of the responses and felt like I was betraying feminism.

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #163 on: August 15, 2017, 08:08:51 PM »
Personally when it comes to fiction I don't like to see the dominant/submissive pairings because one always steamrolls the other. My favorite is two alphas together. That's why I wrote the guy in my current series the way he is. The MC is so strong and she has the upper hand over him, so if he were written as submissive or even just a good, gentlemanly guy she would roll right over him. The clash and conflict between them creates a lot more chemistry. Then I read that blog post and some of the responses and felt like I was betraying feminism.

Posting from out front of my sister's, stealing her wifi and waiting on the kid- the only problem I have with 'feminism' is that what started as an 'if you want' seems to have become 'you have to do it this way.'
From 'you can work outside the house if you want' to 'stay at home moms are crap and betrayers of the cause.'
From 'embrace YOUR sexuality' to 'don't like the wrong thing or pick a fetish from outside of the pre-approved list or we will turn on you so fast, and don't you dare like something that drags us back to that cave man crap we finally pulled away from.'
Those are extremes of course, but I've only got a minute.
Reading your quote tho, watching those two in your book sounds fascinating. I'd read it. I'm not big on dom/sub myself. But two equals figuring out where they stand, with moments where each come out on top in their own ways- oh, yeah. I'd read that.

I know you started this thread, and you were asking if you could also put it in romance as well, right? If you do put it in romance I think you'd almost have to have the male character be a second alpha. Most romance readers that read MF don't want to read about a strong female with a submissive male. There's a place for that in erotica, but most MF romance readers want a strong male. The range of strong can go all the way up to alphahole but it doesn't have to. I'm not a reader or writer of the alphahole stuff myself, beyond occasional research, but to not get grated in the reviews they either need to be equals or he needs to be at least a little more alpha than she is, at least sometimes or in certain areas, so their alphaness can be conflict, and even eventually complimentary as they figure each other out.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 09:37:00 PM by Going Incognito »

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #164 on: August 15, 2017, 08:17:32 PM »
I'm working on my Halloween story...but these two are a great couple.  They are smitten with each other. :)


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Offline Nic

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #165 on: August 15, 2017, 10:45:39 PM »
I think I would explain the reason to my daughter not to excuse the action, but because I want her to understand a wider spectrum of human actions. I wouldn't explain it as an excuse, but I don't want to, in the pursuit of being right, to pretend that we can erase the existence of a human behavior that is innately true (i.e. little boys tease girls to express interest).

I was with you about most things in this thread, but I sit here and am completely blown over by what you say about this. Violence in a child and it gets explained as affection? Really? There's someone who expresses the problem with such thinking much better than I ever could:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqFaiVNuy1k

Violence should never wrongly be identified as affection. It isn't, not even in small children - whether boys or girls.

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #166 on: August 15, 2017, 11:20:16 PM »
I was with you about most things in this thread, but I sit here and am completely blown over by what you say about this. Violence in a child and it gets explained as affection? Really? There's someone who expresses the problem with such thinking much better than I ever could:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqFaiVNuy1k

Violence should never wrongly be identified as affection. It isn't, not even in small children - whether boys or girls.

I'm not Alexa and I do love Patrick Stewart, but I don't get the connection. What does his dad's PTSD have to do with little kids pulling pigtails?

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #167 on: August 15, 2017, 11:24:57 PM »
I was with you about most things in this thread, but I sit here and am completely blown over by what you say about this. Violence in a child and it gets explained as affection? Really? [...] Violence should never wrongly be identified as affection. It isn't, not even in small children - whether boys or girls.

This response neatly summarises the polarisation of views in this thread. On one side, hair-pulling *always* equals violence. A surprise kiss *always* equals sexual assault. And on the other side, there are those of us who would say: but it depends...

I find it unsettling, frankly.
   

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #168 on: August 15, 2017, 11:51:05 PM »
I'm not Alexa and I do love Patrick Stewart, but I don't get the connection. What does his dad's PTSD have to do with little kids pulling pigtails?

Miscategorising actual violence as loving someone is the connection, regardless of whether it's grown men or small boys.

That little boy did not pull this little girl's hair because he loved her. He pulled it to hurt her and watch her cry. Maybe she secured a toy he wanted, or was praised by the teacher and he wasn't, and he decided to get back at her. Maybe she poked her tongue out at him, and he decided to up the ante a bit and hurt her. He very empathically did not have positive emotions towards or about her, I can assure you. Even as small as that, boys react positively with behaviour positively connotated: a kiss, a hug, a smile, a gift, a caress, a favour.

Stewart's soliloquy shows that already children, and the very small boys we talk about here, have no problem discerning this.

Offline Nic

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #169 on: August 15, 2017, 11:59:10 PM »
This response neatly summarises the polarisation of views in this thread. On one side, hair-pulling *always* equals violence. A surprise kiss *always* equals sexual assault. And on the other side, there are those of us who would say: but it depends...

I find it unsettling, frankly.

No, it wasn't and isn't. If you read my initial responses to this thread, I stated that most surprise kisses aren't sexual assault. My argument started with that I don't even see all mouth-to-mouth kisses being sexual in the first place, not even among lovers. That, for instance, wasn't acknowledged by anyone here, but it is exemplary of the oversexualisation of the US culture.

Someone, whether boy or girl and above coordinated baby age, pulling someone else's hair for a painful effect is not ever friendly. They pull the hair to cause pain, and everybody older than a baby knows that pain is painful and can't be considered a nice thing to happen to someone.

I am not talking about potential excuses, like people who are mentally ill or disabled or having a disorder barring them from having a normal empathy and normal social responses. Those may be exempt, but they are a) not the norm and b) shouldn't be in the same school anyway. At least not unexplained and unannounced to the rest of the parents and students.

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #170 on: August 16, 2017, 12:05:43 AM »
Miscategorising actual violence as loving someone is the connection, regardless of whether it's grown men or small boys.

That little boy did not pull this little girl's hair because he loved her. He pulled it to hurt her and watch her cry. Maybe she secured a toy he wanted, or was praised by the teacher and he wasn't, and he decided to get back at her. Maybe she poked her tongue out at him, and he decided to up the ante a bit and hurt her. He very empathically did not have positive emotions towards or about her, I can assure you. Even as small as that, boys react positively with behaviour positively connotated: a kiss, a hug, a smile, a gift, a caress, a favour.

Stewart's soliloquy shows that already children, and the very small boys we talk about here, have no problem discerning this.


I'm guessing that you don't actually have any kids. Especially any of the boy variety?

Offline Nic

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #171 on: August 16, 2017, 12:42:38 AM »

I'm guessing that you don't actually have any kids. Especially any of the boy variety?

Im not questioning that boys (and girls) do these things. I question the motivation you tender. I was a boy in a family having lots of them, and I am uncle, great-uncle and godfather to several new generations of boys. There are no benign variants of pulling someone's hair.

Even the "I did it to see what happens" is not actually benign. It's an excuse and a fib. That's right on the same level as "I tied a cracker on the kitten's tail and lit it to find out what happens". It's not benign. It comes with the (correct) notion that pain, gore and mayhem will ensue. The "what happens" is strictly reduced to how much of all that gore and what the reactions of the adults are.

Which is the point where Julie is absolutely right. Adults should not try to lighten the burden of being harmed and caused pain by explaining it away to the victim as affection (it wasn't affection), nor should the offenders get off on being allegedly misunderstood. That would show them that misdirection is a successful ploy in such instances. And it would cement victim behaviour in such individuals who are susceptible to it.

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #172 on: August 16, 2017, 03:18:19 AM »
Im not questioning that boys (and girls) do these things. I question the motivation you tender. I was a boy in a family having lots of them, and I am uncle, great-uncle and godfather to several new generations of boys. There are no benign variants of pulling someone's hair.

Even the "I did it to see what happens" is not actually benign. It's an excuse and a fib. That's right on the same level as "I tied a cracker on the kitten's tail and lit it to find out what happens". It's not benign. It comes with the (correct) notion that pain, gore and mayhem will ensue. The "what happens" is strictly reduced to how much of all that gore and what the reactions of the adults are.

Which is the point where Julie is absolutely right. Adults should not try to lighten the burden of being harmed and caused pain by explaining it away to the victim as affection (it wasn't affection), nor should the offenders get off on being allegedly misunderstood. That would show them that misdirection is a successful ploy in such instances. And it would cement victim behaviour in such individuals who are susceptible to it.

It was the motivation part I meant, too. Forgive me for pinning you down further, I have so many questions as I really am fascinated by the similarities and differences in how people think, view the world and all that. So you really only see conscience, malicious violence any time one kid hurts another? It's never a side effect of being too tired, or hungry, or frustrated or a lashing out as a release from lacking the complex verbal communication skills, or even purely out of boredom or a brain fart cause the kids neural network is growing faster than his emotions can catch up? It's never to get some kind of reaction from a crush, or to see if they get punished just as much for doing it the second time as they did the first, or to see if this kid makes a different screamy noise than that kid did, it's always with the intent to violently cause pain?

If, as you say, "adults should not try to lighten the burden of being harmed and caused pain by explaining it away to the victim as affection (it wasn't affection), nor should the offenders get off on being allegedly misunderstood. That would show them that misdirection is a successful ploy in such instances. And it would cement victim behaviour in such individuals who are susceptible to it," then when this happens on your watch, what do you do to the hair puller? And what do you say to the hair pullee?

And I can only answer for myself, but I personally didnt acknowledge your comment about nonsexual surprise kisses because the article was referring to sexual, romantic surprise kisses, not because I assume that all mouth to mouth kisses are sexual by default from my oversexualized US upbringing. But, speaking of sexual vs non sexual connotations, based on what you said:

"Someone, whether boy or girl and above coordinated baby age, pulling someone else's hair for a painful effect is not ever friendly. They pull the hair to cause pain, and everybody older than a baby knows that pain is painful and can't be considered a nice thing to happen to someone."

How does sexual hair pulling come into play? If hair is pulled during sex, is that by default always a violent act as well? Or was that meant purely in the context of the kid to kid discussion? And in the kid to kid context, what if the hair being pulled isnt meant 'for a painful effect?' What if it's meant for an attention getting effect? For an 'I dont quite know how to interact with you but I want to' effect? Is that not possible? Is it always meant to cause pain, in your eyes?

More specifically addressing this part: "...everybody older than a baby knows that pain is painful and can't be considered a nice thing to happen to someone." That's not true. I've seen young kids above baby age do things that they had no idea hurt. The one that comes most quickly to mind was a biter in the neighborhood. One day his victim had enough and bit back. That kid learned then that biting hurts the one bitten. He never bit again, but before being on the bitten end? He liked how biting felt to do, but he did not like how biting felt on the receiving end. That's when he stopped, which tells me that he didnt know that causing that pain was painful or not a nice thing to do to another, until he had it done to him.

(Obviously you dont have to answer any of these that you dont want to.)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 03:52:10 AM by Going Incognito »

Offline Nic

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #173 on: August 16, 2017, 04:28:54 AM »
Maybe you accept it better coming from someone of your own culture?

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/hurting-not-flirting

Violence is never affection. Not a single time. It always is violence. Whether it is done out of fatigue, or to get a reaction, it's never affection or love. Someone would have to be seriously mishandled and mismanaged to believe it is affection, and that would put that person in need of serious therapy to learn proper social behaviour.

What I would do? I'd certainly not tell someone who was hit out of the blue, that "this boy did it because he loves you". I'd say, and I said it several times in my life, that I'm sorry that he or she was hit and that this wasn't okay to happen. I would tell the violent person, be it a boy or a girl, that no one harms people on my watch just because. I'd ask them what their beef with that other child was and act according to the answer.

Quote
And I can only answer for myself, but I personally didnt acknowledge your comment about nonsexual surprise kisses because the article was referring to sexual, romantic surprise kisses, not because I assume that all mouth to mouth kisses are sexual by default from my oversexualized US upbringing. But, speaking of sexual vs non sexual connotations, based on what you said:

No. It was the author of that article who stated that "all mouth-to-mouth kisses are sexual" and because they are, they are harmful as surprise kisses. The logical fallacy in this starts with the assumption that all kisses to the mouth are perforce sexual. They aren't. It is the first thing in his faulty chain of logic which should have been pointed out and acknowledged. Interestingly very few did.

Quote
How does sexual hair pulling come into play? If hair is pulled during sex, is that by default always a violent act as well? Or was that meant purely in the context of the kid to kid discussion? And in the kid to kid context, what if the hair being pulled isnt meant 'for a painful effect?' What if it's meant for an attention getting effect? For an 'I dont quite know how to interact with you but I want to' effect? Is that not possible? Is it always meant to cause pain, in your eyes?

What do you go on about "sexual hairpulling"? We were and are talking about a small girl whose hair was pulled by a small boy. And the girl was - idiotically - told that the boy pulled her hair because he likes/loves hair. No sex in any of this.

Quote
The one that comes most quickly to mind was a biter in the neighborhood. One day his victim had enough and bit back. That kid learned then that biting hurts the one bitten. He never bit again, but before being on the bitten end? He liked how biting felt to do, but he did not like how biting felt on the receiving end. That's when he stopped, which tells me that he didnt know that causing that pain was painful or not a nice thing to do to another, until he had it done to him.

If this kid was older than 2 years it documents a full failure of the parents. Anyone watching a child biting other children should teach that kid about how painful this is. That's what's called raising children and parenting.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 04:30:27 AM by Nic »

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Re: Surprise Kiss: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #174 on: August 16, 2017, 04:40:08 AM »
Weird question I was thinking about while reading this thread: Is it bad/rapey to turn someone into a vampire without their consent? Does it matter if the person in question is already dead and the vampire biting them is just trying to save their life by making them undead? This whole thing is making me question my identity as a liberal feminist. :(
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 05:07:08 AM by paranormal_kitty »