KB Featured Book
Stone and Silt
by Harvey Chute

$2.99
Kindle Edition published 2013-08-14
Bestseller ranking: 713665

Product Description
Big Al's Books & Pals 2014 Readers' Choice Awards: Young Adult Nominee

A ruthless murder and a stolen shipment of gold.

At school, sixteen-year-old Nikaia Wales endures the taunts of bullies who call her a “half-breed.” At home, she worries about how her family will react if she reveals her growing feelings for the quiet boy next door.

Those are soon the least of her troubles. Nikaia discovers a hidden cache of gold, and when police find a corpse nearby, her father becomes a suspect. Worse, Elias Doyle is circling, hungry to avenge his brother’s death.

Nikaia desperately searches for clues to save her father. In her quest to find the killer, she learns about the power of family, friendship, and young love....

Author Topic: bookclicker.com  (Read 9724 times)  

Offline Crystal_

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #100 on: November 13, 2017, 02:50:52 PM »
99 times out of 100, you input your email address into a field on anything online, it goes onto a list. When I joined, Chancer's Ryver group was by invitation only. Most of the top KUers in Romance are in that group and there's a lot to be learned there. If you're going to complain instead of just hitting unsubscribe like any normal person would do, then you don't deserve to be in there in the first place.

Excuse me? I don't deserve to be in a group if I object to the organizer breaking SPAM laws? If there's anywhere breaking SPAM laws matters, it's a group dedicated to mailing lists.

I don't need to be on BC. I make six figures and can easily seek out swaps with other authors with established pen names. I'd like to think I'm well respected for consistently helping authors and pointing them towards writing quality books that will sell in many years (with proper marketing). I don't need BC. BC needs me. Doing scammy stuff chases away legitimate and experienced authors in favor of newbs and scammers.

If you want a great community, you need to cater to experienced authors.

Offline Sati_LRR

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #101 on: November 13, 2017, 05:57:09 PM »
99 times out of 100, you input your email address into a field on anything online, it goes onto a list. When I joined, Chancer's Ryver group was by invitation only. Most of the top KUers in Romance are in that group and there's a lot to be learned there. If you're going to complain instead of just hitting unsubscribe like any normal person would do, then you don't deserve to be in there in the first place.

I'm now going to explain the economics of supply and demand. This is the same concept that has kept all the underperforming advertising companies afloat. It's the same concept that has kept KU afloat despite diminishing payouts to authors on page reads. People are still using these things. People are still accepting these prices.

I am one of the people who has a super expensive list on BookClicker. Originally, my prices were lower than most, but I was getting booked up. So I raised the price because I didn't want to clog up my newsletter with promos by other authors. Then I raised the price again. Then I raised it again. Now I have one of the more expensive lists on BookClicker, and you know what, I'm still booked solid.

For a lot of authors, especially authors in the top 100 on Amazon, using services like BookClicker and the other advertising sites isn't about getting a positive ROI on that particular ad. It's about getting enough people to buy or borrow their book to get it in the top 100 on Amazon or #1 spot in their category or accomplish some ranking goal that will kickstart organic reads and downloads. That is why people spend stupid amounts of money on this stuff--amounts that don't seem to make sense when you're looked at immediate ROI on an ad purchase.

Not everyone has the same business plan. I totally understand the people who are watching their finances and/or only care about positive ROI regardless of rank. As was already mentioned, not everyone can get a BookBub. For those who can, that is definitely a cheaper route. For those who can't, these are the routes they go to achieve the same results.

I'd also like to add that most of the people with really expensive lists on BookClicker are willing to swap.
Did you even read my post? I was invited and part of both the Slack and then Ryver iterations of the Bookclicker group from the start before the website was even developed. My post had nothing to do with the recent allegations regarding the site and what the devs may or may not have access to behind the scenes.

What I objected to was my email, which was given to Chance during sign-up of Slack then later Ryver, being used and put onto a newsletter list without my permission and using that list to drum up business for the Bookclicker website and being spammed by him. I didn't give him permission to use my email address when I joined those two groups. He has no right to do that regardless of who he is in the indie community. It doesn't give him a free pass to break CAN-SPAM laws, and shame on you for supporting this behavior and the breach of trust. However, I do have the right to complain and warn others of this behavior, especially since it is highly relevant to his current business. Also note, he has not apologized for the inappropriate way he handled the email addresses from these groups.

Lastly, I spoke to Mailerlite and they had this to say about their API keys and what information developers can access when you give them your Mailerlite API key. I would urge anyone who is thinking of providing a developer, app, or site their API key for whatever service to do their due diligence and double check what kind of access you are granting and what information the developer will now have access to.

Quote
Hi, I have a quick question about the Mailerlite API. Can you tell me what information a developer would have access to if I gave them my API? Do they get to see my subscriber email details?
Quote
Hey [removed]!
Good to hear from you :)
Yes, they would have access to your subscribers and their details.
Let me know if you have further questions.
Best regards,
Silvestras
Customer Support Manager
Quote
Hi Silvestras they would see the names and the email addresses? (Sorry I just need this clarified)
And in full too? Not just the amount of subscribers or the groups but everything? Full, uncensored email addresses?
Quote
Yes, if they have your API key, they can get all info about your subscribers from our API documentation: https://developers.mailerlite.com.
Best regards,
Silvestras
Customer Support Manager

Mailerlite information that can be pulled: http://developers.mailerlite.com/reference
Mailchimp information: http://developer.mailchimp.com/documentation/mailchimp/reference/overview/

From the Mailchimp site (https://kb.mailchimp.com/integrations/api-integrations/about-api-keys?):
Quote
API keys grant full access to your MailChimp account and should be protected the same way you would protect your password.

*Disclaimer* By providing this information I am not saying Chance scrapes the subscriber information from Bookclicker, merely that, according to Mailerlite themselves that it is possible.

ETA Mailchimp links
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 06:25:07 AM by Sati_LRR »

Offline KMatthew

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #102 on: November 13, 2017, 06:55:17 PM »
Did you even read my post? I was invited and part of both the Slack and then Ryver iterations of the Bookclicker group from the start before the website was even developed. My post had nothing to do with the recent allegations regarding the site and what the devs may or may not have access to behind the scenes.

What I objected to was my email, which was given to Chance during sign-up of Slack then later Ryver, being used and put onto a newsletter list without my permission and using that list to drum up business for the Bookclicker website and being spammed by him. I didn't give him permission to use my email address when I joined those two groups. He has no right to do that regardless of who he is in the indie community. It doesn't give him a free pass to break CAN-SPAM laws, and shame on you for supporting this behavior and the breach of trust. However, I do have the right to complain and warn others of this behavior, especially since it is highly relevant to his current business. Also note, he has not apologized for the inappropriate way he handled the email addresses from these groups.

Lastly, I spoke to Mailerlite and they had this to say about their API keys and what information developers can access when you give them your Mailerlite API key. I would urge anyone who is thinking of providing a developer, app, or site their API key for whatever service to do their due diligence and double check what kind of access you are granting and what information the developer will now have access to.

Here's the information that can be pulled: http://developers.mailerlite.com/reference

*Disclaimer* By providing this information I am not saying Chance scrapes the subscriber information from Bookclicker, merely that, according to Mailerlite themselves that it is possible.
If you're going to get  p*ss y over someone making their website easy to use by having Mailerlite or MailChimp API integration, then there are dozens of businesses you can attack. Maybe you should be p*ssed at Mailerlite and Mailchimp for allowing these businesses to have access to your list data and take it up with them. As you said, though, you are not accusing Chance of scraping subscriber info, so I'm not sure why your anger seems directed towards him.

Trust me, I am just as ticked off about the b.s. going on in the romance industry as everyone else is. I've been writing romance full time for over five years, made 6 figures a year doing it(and yeah, Crystal, I know who you are and have swapped with you before). My business has been devastated by the recent flood of book factories, and it sucks...because as scammy as we might all see it, what they're doing is legal, so there's no way to stop them. But blaming Chance for trying to better the author community by creating these things and then them being used by these people is like blamming Harvey for creating Kboards and letting it be populated by noobs who offer bad advice. These are communities that are and should be open to anyone in the publishing industry who is engaged in legal business practices. Chance kicks people off of Ryver that he knows to be using blackhat methods to get ahead or that are screwing other authors over. I highly doubt he ever intended for Ryver to be populated by these people, but again, what they're doing isn't illegal. And yeah, they're also the ones driving up prices on BookClicker because they're willing to pay these crazy amounts to be in newsletters to reach the top 100.

So yeah, BookClicker and Ryver ARE being used by people who are damaging the publishing industry for real authors, but real authors use them, too. I like BookClicker because I HATE networking with people on a personal level. If I want to swap with another author, I can do it without having to engage in conversation with people I don't care about forming a personal relationship with. If I want to network with other authors, I do it as friends on Facebook. If I want to engage in newsletter swaps with authors I'm not friends with but have big mailing lists, I do it on BookClicker. And as for Ryver, it's a good place to find out what's going on in KU so that you can maybe stay a few steps ahead of these book factories, or at least have enough info to be able to compete with them as a real author.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 07:01:36 PM by KMatthew »

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #103 on: November 13, 2017, 07:41:14 PM »
Chance did intend to make scammers powerful though. He charged them thousands in his mastermind groups to hold their hands and teach them everything. He was their guru and their instructor. He knew who they were all along, blackhat internet marketers. David Gaughran said it in his bad boy article and you can go on other romance forums any day and hear the same thing. Many scammers wouldn't have learned to bury veteran authors without Chance teaching them everything. He didn't create Bookclicker to help authors. He made it to help the same scummy publishers more powerful so he can keep justifying big tuition fees from them.

Offline Crystal_

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #104 on: November 13, 2017, 07:59:49 PM »
Well my pen name is Crystal. I'm not exactly undercover.

My point is that it is a concern if Chance is ignoring SPAM laws, bc I don't want to risk the mailing list I've cultivated for years. For new authors or more book factory authors, there's less of a risk. It's the established authors with loyal lists who are most valuable for swapping. And for advice (of course, new authors can also have successes and lots to say, and sometimes older authors get set in their ways and fail to keep up with the times).

I use BC bc it's easy, but seeing so many questionable looking pen names there makes me hesitant to keep using it. It's not easy if I have to screen every pen name I don't recognize. At that point, I might as well so if swaps on FB. There's a reason why you don't see anyone like Meghan Quinn or Staci Hart on BC.

Offline dgaughran

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #105 on: November 14, 2017, 07:58:44 PM »
I was very concerned about this so I emailed Mailchimp. Their answer was very clear:

If you sign into Bookclicker with your Mailchimp account/give them your Mailchimp API, then they have FULL ACCESS to your account and your list.

I don't recommend doing that for obvious reasons.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 08:00:30 PM by dgaughran »

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Offline AssanaBanana

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #106 on: November 14, 2017, 11:14:29 PM »
So, it stands to reason that any service out there that includes mailing list integration (such as Instafreebie, for example) has the same level of access once you've shared your API, right? How is Bookclicker different? I mean, other than the questionable associations of the owner which make it difficult to trust the entire system...

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #107 on: November 15, 2017, 12:46:07 AM »
So, it stands to reason that any service out there that includes mailing list integration (such as Instafreebie, for example) has the same level of access once you've shared your API, right? How is Bookclicker different? I mean, other than the questionable associations of the owner which make it difficult to trust the entire system...
Instafreebie has never asked for my password or anything else that will let them into my Mailchimp account. All they ask for is the same sign up link that is given out to everyone who signs up to my mailing list. That is how it is different. Geez, even Facebook, when they build a lookalike audience for advertising, don't ask for passwords.


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Offline dgaughran

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #108 on: November 15, 2017, 01:37:18 AM »
Oh I can think of a few other ways BookFunnel is different.

1. I've met Damon Courtney, the owner, and he didn't give off a remotely shady vibe whatsoever. I met Chance once at a conference and the first thing he said was "I work for Author Solutions." Just odd.

2. Who is Chance Carter really? What's his real name? What's his real address? Things I'd like to know about anyone I'm potentially doing business with.

3. Chance Carter openly flouts Amazon's rules in a way that cheats authors. He has admitted that in this thread. (That should instantly disqualify him as someone you want to do business with, but I digress.)

4. Chance Carter runs a private mastermind which teaches all sorts of shady crap.

Just some minor things there. Some possible reasons not to hand him the keys to your mailing list account.

Maybe.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 01:49:35 AM by dgaughran »

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Offline MonkeyScribe

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #109 on: November 15, 2017, 02:27:42 AM »
Chance Carter . . . Gandhi . . . I wouldn't give anyone the password to my mailing list. That's just internet safety 101.

Offline dgaughran

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #110 on: November 15, 2017, 03:28:44 AM »
What I objected to was my email, which was given to Chance during sign-up of Slack then later Ryver, being used and put onto a newsletter list without my permission and using that list to drum up business for the Bookclicker website and being spammed by him. I didn't give him permission to use my email address when I joined those two groups. He has no right to do that regardless of who he is in the indie community. It doesn't give him a free pass to break CAN-SPAM laws, and shame on you for supporting this behavior and the breach of trust.

Further evidence, if any were needed, that Chance Carter can't be trusted and that you definitely shouldn't give him access to your mailing list and all those people's private information.

All of us have a duty of care towards readers who sign up to our list - morally and legally - and using BookClicker at this point is just irresponsible.

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Offline AssanaBanana

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #111 on: November 15, 2017, 05:58:40 AM »
Instafreebie has never asked for my password or anything else that will let them into my Mailchimp account. All they ask for is the same sign up link that is given out to everyone who signs up to my mailing list. That is how it is different. Geez, even Facebook, when they build a lookalike audience for advertising, don't ask for passwords.
If you do the mailing list integration with Instafreebie or Bookfunnel (so subscriber details get funneled directly to your list) you provide the same API that Bookclicker asks for. No password.

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Offline Huldra

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #112 on: November 15, 2017, 06:12:08 AM »
If someone has your complete login information, they can do whatever you can do on the site. Among them are send out email campaigns and download a spreadsheet of all your subscribers. Maybe they'll do that, maybe not--it's supposedly being done to verify the size of your list--but I wouldn't recommend giving them the power.

Omg.
And if "someone" has been dumb enough to do that already, is there a way to undo their access?

Offline dgaughran

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #113 on: November 15, 2017, 06:14:30 AM »
Omg.
And if "someone" has been dumb enough to do that already, is there a way to undo their access?

Yes. You can revoke an API key and re-secure your account at any point. Obviously though, that doesn't protect any info that might have been copied or scraped already.

Here's how to disable an API key on Mailchimp (third section): https://kb.mailchimp.com/integrations/api-integrations/about-api-keys

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Offline Huldra

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #114 on: November 15, 2017, 06:21:25 AM »
Yes. You can revoke an API key and re-secure your account at any point. Obviously though, that doesn't protect any info that might have been copied or scraped already.

Here's how to disable an API key on Mailchimp (third section): https://kb.mailchimp.com/integrations/api-integrations/about-api-keys

Thank you. Sincerely.

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #115 on: November 15, 2017, 04:23:13 PM »
Once again, nice work, David.




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