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A ruthless murder and a stolen shipment of gold.

At school, sixteen-year-old Nikaia Wales endures the taunts of bullies who call her a “half-breed.” At home, she worries about how her family will react if she reveals her growing feelings for the quiet boy next door.

Those are soon the least of her troubles. Nikaia discovers a hidden cache of gold, and when police find a corpse nearby, her father becomes a suspect. Worse, Elias Doyle is circling, hungry to avenge his brother’s death.

Nikaia desperately searches for clues to save her father. In her quest to find the killer, she learns about the power of family, friendship, and young love....

Author Topic: bookclicker.com  (Read 9680 times)  

Offline Chance_Carter

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2017, 11:54:19 AM »
Just wanted to add that I hope all the authors using this--and selecting which lists to work with--understand why the numbers are varying so much.

Yes, I'll have to make sure people are aware of that.
I think overtime people will get very used to judging the stats and deciding if they want to book a promo, but it will take a while for all of us to get used to this platform.

Also, the software requires that people confirm they promoted your book after the date passes. If they don't, you can request a refund.
So when they confirm, depending on the platform they use, we pull all available data on the email they sent on your behalf. You see how many people were sent the email, how many opened it, how many clicked, etc (MailChimp provides the most data). And then you can give the list a private thumbs up or thumbs down rating for your own future reference.
So you can build up your records of good promo lists over time.

Offline Chance_Carter

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2017, 11:56:18 AM »
Hello, I see that the only payment option is through Stripe? Do you plan on integrating PayPal as a means of payment?

It will only be stripe unfortunately.
This means you need a credit card to buy promos.
And you need to be located in one of Stripe's 22 supported countries to receive payments.
If you're outside these 22 countries, as I know many of us are, you can make your list "Swap Only", meaning you do not accept payment for promotions, but do swap promos.
Swaps are all supported the same as paid promos, they go into your calendar etc.

Offline Chance_Carter

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2017, 11:56:57 AM »
How often do the list stats get updated? Just curious as I contemplate culling my list.

They get updated multiple times per day by the system to keep in sync with the list provider stats.

Offline TromboneAl

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2017, 12:02:55 PM »
(1) MailerLite counts each and every click, while MailChimp only counts one click per user. I think (2) MailerLite also represents the click rate as a percentage of the openers, rather than as a percentage of the list.

There's nothing you can do about problem (1), but you have all you need to correct problem (2) (if you can confirm that that's how they work).

That is,

Click percentage per open = Mailchimp click percentage * Mailchimp open percentage/100%

So, for example, if Mailchimp reports a 40% open rate and a 10% click rate:

Click percentage per newsletters emailed = 10% * 40%/100% = 4%

Alternatively, you could convert a Mailerlite click rate to a Mailchimp click rate.

Doing so would help your customers compare.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 12:05:19 PM by TromboneAl »

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Offline Chance_Carter

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2017, 12:06:07 PM »
Here are my thoughts: I wouldn't want to promote someone else's book in my newsletter unless I'd actually read it and liked it.
However, that semi-ethics-related objection wouldn't stop me from paying someone else to promote my book [does that make me a bad person?? :) ].
So, I'm wondering whether I could sign up, but not accept books for promoting in my list??

Al there are many ways to skin a cat!

You can promote books of other people for money, like bookbub etc.
You can buy promos for your own books from other authors.
Or you can do either one, or a bit of both.

It's set up for promo sites to list their assets and only sell, and for authors to do both, or either.

You do not have to put your list on the marketplace, although I would hope you'd consider it for the future.
You also don't have to accept any book unless you're happy with it. You get as much information as we have from the book's profile page. But most people are booking promos for books that still aren't live. In this case you can refuse them or go on the author's reputation, and agree to promote authors you know and trust.

Regarding promoting other people's books, I know many authors won't be comfortable doing this at first.
And I 100% understand this. I have felt the same way many times.

But the way I look at it, if we as a community are willing to let bookbub and other promo sites send out millions of emails daily. If we're willing to pay AMS ads and Facebook ads thousands of dollars to put our books in front of readers. Then why on earth wouldn't we be willing to tell readers ourselves about the books coming out of the indie publishing community.

These readers are on our lists because they like our books. They want to hear more about our books. And assuming we do it right, get their permission, and present book promotions in an interesting and engaging manner, they are often very happy to receive information on the hot new releases coming from the other authors in the genre. In many cases, we are actually a better and more natural fit to fill this promotional need than Facebook ads, Instagram ads etc.

So, if you do have an audience of readers who enjoy a certain genre, consider creating a separate list for those of them who opt in to receiving daily or weekly email updates of new releases in the genre. It's a service to other authors, it's a service to the readers who opt in and are interested, and it's keeping author ad budgets in our own pockets rather than sending them straight to big ad platforms.

But anyway, in answer to your original question, you can absolutely buy and not sell, sell and not buy, or do both.

Offline Chance_Carter

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2017, 12:10:54 PM »
There's nothing you can do about problem (1), but you have all you need to correct problem (2) (if you can confirm that that's how they work).

That is,

Click percentage per open = Mailchimp click percentage * Mailchimp open percentage/100%

So, for example, if Mailchimp reports a 40% open rate and a 10% click rate:

Click percentage per newsletters emailed = 10% * 40%/100% = 4%

Alternatively, you could convert a Mailerlite click rate to a Mailchimp click rate.

Doing so would help your customers compare.

Yes, that's totally correct.
I would just need to make absolutely certain of exactly how they gather their stats. In some cases I believe they might not publicize the details.

There are actually a lot of ways in which their stats differ. It's not as simple as I said above.
For example, an open is detected using different technical triggers by the different hosts. I've sent emails to the same lists from different platforms and while the traffic ultimately generated is similar, the stats are very different.

Bottom line is, an open for MailChimp depends on a million little things they use to determine an open.
An open for Mailerlite depends on a million different things they've decided to use to solve the same question.

I decided it would be best to just give you the stats in the same form the provider gives them, and give you the source of the stats right next to it.
So you always see, these stats are provided by MailChimp etc.
And for now, while people use so many different sending platforms, and the different platforms do not have a standarized way of measuring stats, I'd say just look at the lists and the authors who own them and try to get a feel for what the stats are saying by comparing them with other lists on the same platform.

Offline Chance_Carter

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2017, 12:27:02 PM »
Also, I might as well say, at the risk of being controversial!

MailerLite seems to have realized that customers like high open rates and click rates, and have tailored their stats accordingly.

MailChimp seems to have gone with the approach that customers want stats to be as accurate as possible.

Offline Huldra

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2017, 12:47:19 PM »
Removing my endorsement. For obvious reasons.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 06:22:27 AM by Huldra »

Offline Chance_Carter

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2017, 02:03:54 PM »
Thanks so much Huldra! I appreciate that.

Offline deniseleitao

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2017, 06:45:45 PM »
Hey, Chance,

I just tried your service. I think the idea is fantastic, and if you promote it well, it should work. There's a similar service with NL swaps, though, now I forgot the name, but I think yours is better.

That said, you need a better system for messages. I tried to book a promo, and asked if my book would be a good fit. The writer wrote that she wasn't sure it was a good fit, but would accept and leave it to me to decide. My CC was charged and I have no way to contact the author.  :o  Fair enough, being featured on her NL is fina, but I can't even say thanks.

So a better messaging system would be cool. Also, perhaps a place for a description of the NL, you know, what genre/style readers like, etc. Those things would make the service better.

On price, you're charging too little! But you should let the service grow before charging. As comparison, Fiverr charges an insane 20% per transaction plus 1$  :o ???  Still, people use it.

Of course you don't want to charge 20%, but you could charge a higher percentage or a per transaction fee. Perhaps you could have a monthly fee for premium access without percentages or something. I'm writing this because I want to see this service prosper, and it won't prosper if you can't dedicate your time to it.

(Finally, I know I'm new here, but I'm a lurker...)

Offline Phxsundog

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2017, 10:25:14 PM »
The group of romance authors using this service is responsible for a lot of the sketchy shenanigans happening lately in KU. Bundling shorts and presenting them as novels, clickfarms, using crappy ghostwriters to name a few. I know several people who got on some of the lists Chance showed in his screenshots without ever signing up or entering a giveaway hosted by those authors. Lists are being sold or traded and put together illegally.

The daily spamming they do has bombed email open and click rates. It has enraged thousands of readers who are done with email lists forever. I personally see no good reason why the same trends should start infecting other genres without people knowing  the damage this mass email marketing has done in romance. Not saying everyone in the Bookclicker group or Chance are scammers. But there's tons of grey with the authors involved and the aggressive spam strategies they use. Bookclicker has given a lot of scammers power they wouldn't have had before. People should know what they're getting into before jumping into this. I think Chance's following on some other forums makes many afraid to call out the dark side of this service..

Offline deniseleitao

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2017, 05:02:31 AM »
The group of romance authors using this service is responsible for a lot of the sketchy shenanigans happening lately in KU. Bundling shorts and presenting them as novels, clickfarms, using crappy ghostwriters to name a few. I know several people who got on some of the lists Chance showed in his screenshots without ever signing up or entering a giveaway hosted by those authors. Lists are being sold or traded and put together illegally.


I had no idea! But there's another service promoting newsletter swaps, I forgot the name now, it has a monthly fee, and it's not as good as Chance's. I forgot the name... It's similar. So the idea is up there and people like it.

I think the authors should think think carefully before promoting another book, but I don't see the harm of it. I think the problem is not in the tool itself, but on how it's used.

Offline TromboneAl

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2017, 07:35:54 AM »
Here's a suggested wording change for your signup page:

You say "Sign Up with MailChimp," "Sign Up with Mailerlite," etc.

People are used to "Sign Up with Facebook," "Sign Up with Twitter," phrases, but you are using them in a different way. That is, I expected that I would sign up via my MailerLite account. So, consider phrasing such as "Sign up (For MailChimp Users)," "Sign up (For MailerLite Users)," etc.

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Offline TromboneAl

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2017, 07:47:03 AM »
More comments from a feedback-a-holic:

1. Regarding signup (MailerLite):

"Need help finding your api key? Read here"

When I click "Read here," it doesn't take me to an explanation of how to get the API key. Yes, the user can figure it out, as I did, but it takes a bit of clicking and head scratching. I suggest you have your own explanation (" Click your name at the top right of your MailerLite page, choose Integrations, and choose Developer API" OSLT).

2. When I signed up, I was taken to the Account Profile page on which I was required to change my password (although it allowed me to put in the same password as before).

3. I'm finding no "Help" info. New users will need that.

4. Typo: " Here you can set up your lists and books, buy promo on the marketplace, and plan your launches."

HTH.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 08:48:54 AM by TromboneAl »

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Offline TellNotShow

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2017, 10:39:22 PM »


Basically, what MailChimp considers an open rate or a click rate is very different to what MailerLite defines them as.
It's not a question of one being more accurate than the other, it's just their definition is different. Like I think MailerLite counts each and every click, while MailChimp only counts one click per user. I think MailerLite also represents the click rate as a percentage of the openers, rather than as a percentage of the list.
So if you send an email to 100 people, only 1 person opens it, and clicks it. That could be 100% click rate on Mailerlite! and 1% on Mailchimp.

All I can say is use the List Stats as a guideline, not an ultimate representation of the list's value.
Only compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
A Mailchimp click rate of 4.5% is better than a Mailchimp click rate of 4.1%, but you can't really compare it with a MailerLite click rate which could be something like 79%.


I've used both for some time, and in my experience this is not just misleading, it's absolutely untrue. For someone running a Mailing List Marketplace, the OP seems to have got something basic very wrong indeed. Unless Mailer Lite has made a drastic change since I last sent an email, their percentages are similar to those I get when I use Mailchimp. (Mailer Lite seem genuinely a little better than Mailchimp, but their figures seem to be worked out in a similar way. Sales support this too.)

The group of romance authors using this service is responsible for a lot of the sketchy shenanigans happening lately in KU. Bundling shorts and presenting them as novels, clickfarms, using crappy ghostwriters to name a few. I know several people who got on some of the lists Chance showed in his screenshots without ever signing up or entering a giveaway hosted by those authors. Lists are being sold or traded and put together illegally.

The daily spamming they do has bombed email open and click rates. It has enraged thousands of readers who are done with email lists forever. I personally see no good reason why the same trends should start infecting other genres without people knowing  the damage this mass email marketing has done in romance.

I've never offered a free book, a prize, anything at all to readers to be on my mailing lists. Totally organic. They subscribe to receive an email when I release a new book. I certainly won't be breaking their trust by trying to profit from that in a way they didn't sign on for. Accepting money to promote other people's books to them is selling their email address -- at least on that day.
It's turning a client into a product.
I told my subscribers I wouldn't do that, and I won't -- maybe that's why they still consistently open my emails and click on the links and buy my books.

I really hope this shady stuff doesn't infect the genres I write.

Also, I would hope the OP had permission from the authors whose names were shown in the screen shots to share their info. I don't think I'd like my own name and mailing list numbers to be shared in a public forum like this.
But as they were there, I snooped. I checked out the book ranks etc. of the author names shown in the screen shots, and found that, while most of the authors do appear in each other's also-boughts, many of the books are doing very poorly indeed. Hardly a glowing recommendation. 
Descent Into Madness: 99%

How To Win KBoards Friends and Not Puss People Off: 0.1%

Writing Desk Space Won Back From Dangerous Cat: 0.2%
All things in moderation

Offline Chance_Carter

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2017, 11:19:30 AM »
Ok I just want to say thanks to everyone who's showing support and signing up.
I know I haven't provided much help documentation so feel free to message me here if you have questions.

Regarding the few people who have concerns about the site or this method of marketing. That's fine. Nothing will suit everyone.

I'll just make my position clear for others who are considering this.

This is a tool that is open to everyone to help you launch books.
It works by allowing you to find authors in your genre who are willing to promote your book.
You pay them or promote your book, and they pay you to promote theirs.
It's as simple as that.
All you can do is make an offer or receive an offer through the platform. It's always up to you what you promote, what you put in your emails, how you present it.
If you don't think you can sell anyone's books but your own, that's totally fine. There are lots of marketing options that don't require you to do anything other than pay.

If you feel you can help get books in front of the right readers, then you're a book marketer and the chances are you have the ability to sell a lot more books than just your own. If you don't want to do that, that's fine.

I'd say it's silly to call anyone evil for doing what we all pay bookbub, facebook, and AMS to do on our behalf already.

I don't get into all the debates about who's a good author and who's a bad author.
I don't police KU or CANSPAM.

KDP polices KU so if you want to use my platform, you must have a KDP account in good standing and you must have a successful relationship with Amazon.
If you want to promote books for other authors, you need an account in good standing with one of the four highly reputable mailing platforms we integrate with (Mailchimp, MailerLite, AWeber, Convertkit). In fact, even just to sign up and view the marketplace, you must have a good account with one of these providers.

If you only want to work with people who satisfy certain conditions, or don't want to work with people who satisfy others, we have a private rating system so you can thumbs up and thumbs down everyone you want and only work with or avoid the people you want to avoid. I think that's pretty sensible and that's what the private ratings are for.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 11:22:59 AM by Chance_Carter »

Offline Romancer

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2017, 04:08:09 PM »
Bookclicker and the authors involved in it: They're the same ones who you see in the top 100 of contemporary romance. Many of them were the stuffers, a lot of them did the weird bonus epilogue stuff as shown in prior comments and are in my opinion directly responsible for contemporary romance going down the toilet. Not due to content, but due to the marketing practices of many of the authors. Daily NLs sent sometimes multiples times a day. 99 cent releases with massive ad spend (I don't know how they even make a profit, but that's their business) and just constant churning of content due to ghostwriters and such.

Not that all of those things are bad or against TOS. (Some of them are now of course) I don't love that you have to pay to play in contemporary romance, but it is what it is.

But those same authors are coming for other genres. And this app enables them to use people's lists to do this same stuff in other genres. Cozy mysteries, UF, Sci-Fi, etc. They're making it free so they can get a foot in the door through other authors' lists since their own lists are romance and/or garbage due to all the spamming. I am not saying they ALL spam, but many do. And many of them are known or rumored to do unethical things. I don't pay attention because I keep my eyes on my own paper, but I did feel like I should say something.

This isn't some altruistic act, which I know Chance would be the first to admit. And I don't know Chance at all, and he could be totally on the up and up.

Just be careful. Also, some of these authors will never have openings for swaps or even payment because they get to the top 100 by swapping wth each other. And some of them charge up to $250 to be sent out. So. Yeah. Proceed with extreme caution is all I'm saying.


Offline Chance_Carter

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2017, 05:00:23 PM »
Romancer, everthing you say is fair.

Making content as long as possible.
Releasing as frequently as possible.
Advertising as hard as possible.
Ranking as high as possible.
And then doing it all over again.

That's what a lot of people do. That's what I do.

And I guess I'm here so everyone who is interested in building a publishing business along lines like that knows of the bookclicker platform. I know there are lots of people who wish Amazon and KU were set up differently, and honestly I'm one of them. But it's set up the way it is, so that's what I deal with.

I'm not here out of altruism. I spent money building this platform and I'd like to see it used by a community of publishers who are looking to launch books as high as possible on the charts. I'll take lots of flack from people while I'm here, but I know most of that anger is directed as much against the system we operate in as it is against me personally. Is it my fault the page rate is so low, or KU is what it is? You're giving me too much credit if you think it is. But people are angry at the way things are. They're angry at the way others do business, especially when it makes a lot of money. I knew that when I opened the thread.

But I'll keep saying what I came to say and if you hate the idea, fine. At the end of the day there will be 500 publishers using this system and it will help them launch higher. I have no doubt they'll launch higher. It's simple math. You launch with 250,000 emails targeted at readers in your genre. You can't be lower after you do that.

Will it mean the best books make the most money?
No, the books with the most emails will make the most money.
Is that fair? No.

But I can't fix that. I'm selling emails. If you want them, bookclicker is free to check out and you're welcome to be a user. When I've said my piece, I'll stop talking and you can forget about me. I'm not addressing this to anyone who already hates what I stand for.

This is for anyone who thinks, hey, I write mystery novels.
Do I want to tell my readers about mystery novels and get paid for it? I'll try it.
Will my books launch higher if other mystery writers send out my books? Probably.
Does Amazon reward the hardest marketed books? Yes.
Can I stomach working with the other publishers in my genre? Yes.

You don't have to like me. You just have to think honestly about the industry you're in. How it works. And what steps you're willing to take to increase your numbers.

I'm not hating on anyone who says this isn't for them. I'm just here to make sure people who like the idea have the opportunity to hear about it. And I can take whatever flack I get while the thread is active. It's just the Internet, and the more comments, the more people who will see this.

Offline AssanaBanana

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2017, 05:07:14 PM »
Bookclicker and the authors involved in it: They're the same ones who you see in the top 100 of contemporary romance. Many of them were the stuffers, a lot of them did the weird bonus epilogue stuff as shown in prior comments and are in my opinion directly responsible for contemporary romance going down the toilet. Not due to content, but due to the marketing practices of many of the authors. Daily NLs sent sometimes multiples times a day. 99 cent releases with massive ad spend (I don't know how they even make a profit, but that's their business) and just constant churning of content due to ghostwriters and such.

Not that all of those things are bad or against TOS. (Some of them are now of course) I don't love that you have to pay to play in contemporary romance, but it is what it is.

But those same authors are coming for other genres. And this app enables them to use people's lists to do this same stuff in other genres. Cozy mysteries, UF, Sci-Fi, etc. They're making it free so they can get a foot in the door through other authors' lists since their own lists are romance and/or garbage due to all the spamming. I am not saying they ALL spam, but many do. And many of them are known or rumored to do unethical things. I don't pay attention because I keep my eyes on my own paper, but I did feel like I should say something.

This isn't some altruistic act, which I know Chance would be the first to admit. And I don't know Chance at all, and he could be totally on the up and up.

Just be careful. Also, some of these authors will never have openings for swaps or even payment because they get to the top 100 by swapping wth each other. And some of them charge up to $250 to be sent out. So. Yeah. Proceed with extreme caution is all I'm saying.



So I hesitantly joined Bookclicker because I see its potential in helping facilitate swaps between myself and other authors in my genre. The tool itself has the potential to be fantastically useful. It's only a tool, and one I'd really like to be able to use for the very basic service it provides.

However, I realize that the Bookclicker app's integrity is only as strong as the authors who actually use it. What I am HOPING is that more authors who DON'T perpetuate those damaging practices will get on board and make it a healthy, useful community.

I admit one of my biggest reservations about it to start with was precisely your worry - that this monetizing of lists won't be done in a way that has our readers' best interests at heart and will only wind up alienating them (the readers) and ruining the effectiveness of author newsletters altogether. But as Chance says, it's up to the list owners to behave and he has no interest in policing their emailing behavior.

Still, if you use it, you are under no obligation to 1) buy spots on the list of someone whose practices you find sketchy, or 2) sell spots to those people either.

Also, you can do what I am choosing to do and restrict your list to swaps only, and be super picky about who you actually choose to swap with. The fact that this is possible is what makes the application so attractive to me, even though there are still several kinks that need to be ironed out where the features are concerned. I don't want to monetize my list, and I don't particularly want to work with authors who do.

Obviously this presents Chance with the complicated issue of how to pay for the creation and maintenance of the app itself (which was NOT cheap). Taking a cut from the fees authors charge each other makes sense, but that wouldn't work for authors like me who don't charge and have no interest in doing so. I appreciate that he's made it free to start with, (it's effectively in beta now, so there's no sense charging for something that isn't 100% functional as far as I'm concerned). If he gets all the kinks worked out so it's as useful as I'd like it to be, I would be willing to pay him a regular fee for it.

Of course, if I don't see a lot of the current issues being worked out, then I will just move on. In the meantime I am excited about the potential it has and want to try to help it along by using it as an author with integrity.

Offline Crystal_

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2017, 05:26:02 PM »
I've used both for some time, and in my experience this is not just misleading, it's absolutely untrue. For someone running a Mailing List Marketplace, the OP seems to have got something basic very wrong indeed. Unless Mailer Lite has made a drastic change since I last sent an email, their percentages are similar to those I get when I use Mailchimp. (Mailer Lite seem genuinely a little better than Mailchimp, but their figures seem to be worked out in a similar way. Sales support this too.)

Not exactly. For individual emails, ML and MC have about the same open and clicks, but for the overall list ML has seriously inflated numbers. I have one list from a giveaway that had about 10-15% open 1-3% clicks through a Depp campaign. I removed all the non-openers after those ten emails and aren't a few more that had slightly better rates, and my list's rating is something like 70 open 60% click. It really makes no sense. I have no idea how ML came to that number.

Offline writerlygal

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2017, 08:08:54 PM »
Thanks for sharing, Chance. I use Bookclicker & love how it automates my newsletter send outs. I appreciate having the service, very glad you made it.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 08:23:01 PM by writerlygal »

Offline Spicy Boi

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2017, 08:49:36 PM »
And many of them recently had their ranks frozen and stripped and no one knows why. I just would hate for a well intentioned author to lose their account or career over being associated with the wrong type of author/marketer.

Be very, very careful with that.

Kboards decided it's guilty until proven innocent with those authors.

The fact is, I know several (through not all) of them personally and I know exactly how they market their books. And there was no foul play involved.

You will say, "You're a stranger on the internet, why would I believe you? Amazon stripped their ranks so they must have done something wrong. You must be one of them. Maybe YOU are guilty yourself."

So read closely and understand me.

Amazon -does not care- if it catches innocent authors in its net. Amazon is notorious for doing just that- punishing innocent authors while real scammers get away scot-free. It has happened over and over and over again over the years. And it happened yet again this time.

You do not need to believe me when I tell you these authors are innocent. To you I am a stranger on the internet, and you have no way to verify what I'm saying. I get that. BUT-understand this- you become ethically culpable when you libel them with a term like "the wrong type of author." In civilized discourse we operate on the presumption of innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around, which is what you are doing now, and what many other participants on Kboards have been doing.

Next time, it might just be you who gets caught in the Zon's net. And trust me, if it does, and you have to simultaneously face down a false accusation from Amazon and a witch hunt from your peers... You will really not like it.

And then you will know what these authors have been dealing with for the last month+.

Offline Phxsundog

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2017, 10:15:00 PM »
Lots of Bookclicker romance authors are scammers and Chance doesn't care. He participates in internet marketer style schemes himself. Just like a couple other people mentioned. Go ahead, sign up for some newsletters belonging to authors from the screenshot he posted. You'll find out they send multiple emails per day. They spam their readers incessantly. Many were rank stripped and it's not coincidence. Many readers get on these lists without ever signing up for them. The foreign authors violate Can Spam left and right. I know a couple good authors who had nothing to do with it got their ranks taken.

We know the email Amazon sent the authors warned them to avoid certain promo sites. I think one promo service they mean is Bookclicker.

KU declines on Amazon's end are half the battle its true. The rest is Chance selling info to scammers over the past year. He's profited off teaching several dozen authors with no ethics or interest in a good product to page stuff, spam like crazy and rob legitimate authors who didn't play these games blind. I think the Kboards mods should let the warnings about him and his service stand.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 10:36:08 PM by Phxsundog »

Offline Huldra

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2017, 01:59:18 AM »
Well, wow.

Basically, my views align with AssanaBanana's. The tool itself is fine. People were swapping outside of it for ages, this just makes it easier and more streamlined to do so.

I haven't heard anything about Chance's supposed scamming ways and black hat marketing courses before this thread. Would anyone care to PM me some links/screenshots/anything? Or could a Kboarder with a proven track record of being believable weigh in?
I'm pretty appalled at the print-screen of the "jump to the last page to get your bonus chapter" that was shown earlier. It's not enough to make me remove my endorsement, but I'm somewhat less enthused at this point.

But regardless of Chance's character, the tool is just a tool.

Offline MonkeyScribe

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Re: bookclicker.com
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2017, 05:01:20 AM »
You do not need to believe me when I tell you these authors are innocent. To you I am a stranger on the internet, and you have no way to verify what I'm saying. I get that. BUT-understand this- you become ethically culpable when you libel them with a term like "the wrong type of author." In civilized discourse we operate on the presumption of innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around, which is what you are doing now, and what many other participants on Kboards have been doing.

I could believe you, a random person popping up to muddy the waters, or I could believe people like Phoenix and David Gaughran who have been trusted members of this community for years and have backed up their assertions with hard evidence.

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