Author Topic: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo  (Read 61898 times)  

Offline Amanda M. Lee

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #550 on: January 03, 2018, 07:50:15 AM »
Are you saying thousands of people are doing Bookbubs or something similar?
Yes.



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« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 05:29:42 PM by Becca Mills »

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #551 on: January 03, 2018, 07:54:32 AM »
Yes.



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And the evidence for that?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 05:30:38 PM by Becca Mills »

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #552 on: January 03, 2018, 07:57:20 AM »
Are you saying thousands of people are doing Bookbubs or something similar?

Sorry to be crass, but where have you been?

Bookbub runs a full slate of promotions EVERY SINGLE DAY. There are dozens of categories and a number of choices in each category EVERY SINGLE DAY. There are dozens of other legitimate book promotion companies that run promotions EVERY SINGLE DAY both price promotions and free promotions.

Every day, Amazon makes scads of money off these promotions, because they are usually books that are not moving a lot of copies and need a boost.

It is known...



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« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 05:31:29 PM by Becca Mills »

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Offline Amanda M. Lee

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #554 on: January 03, 2018, 07:59:31 AM »
And the evidence for that?

Well, you could look at the BookBub emails ... and the ENT emails ... and the Robin Reads emails ... and the KND, BookGorilla, Ebook Soda, Freebooksy, Bargain Books, OHFB, I Love Vampires, etc. emails. Then you could look at all the ad stacker lists, talk to the people doing newsletter swaps, hang around Bookfunnel and Instafreebie and look at what they're doing, you could look at the free and paid lists for ideas on who is running extensive Facebook advertising pushes (although finding those ads is obviously problematic if you're not part of the audience makeup).



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« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 05:32:53 PM by Becca Mills »

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #555 on: January 03, 2018, 08:04:23 AM »


And the evidence for that?


I'm always amazed when someone is this uneducated about the business they're apparently part of.


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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #556 on: January 03, 2018, 08:05:34 AM »
Well, you could look at the BookBub emails ... and the ENT emails ... and the Robin Reads emails ... and the KND, BookGorilla, Ebook Soda, Freebooksy, Bargain Books, OHFB, I Love Vampires, etc. emails. Then you could look at all the ad stacker lists, talk to the people doing newsletter swaps, hang around Bookfunnel and Instafreebie and look at what they're doing, you could look at the free and paid lists for ideas on who is running extensive Facebook advertising pushes (although finding those ads is obviously problematic if you're not part of the audience makeup).

We are not talking about free promotions. A free promotion from outside should not be allowed to influence ranking for paid sales. I can't get into Bookbub to look at the URL someone offered. Question: Take the Romance category, for example. On any one day how many Bookbub promos at .99 or above are in place during that day?

Offline LadyG

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #557 on: January 03, 2018, 08:07:25 AM »
A free promotion from outside should not be allowed to influence ranking for paid sales.

Free books are ranked separately from paid sales.

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Offline Amanda M. Lee

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #558 on: January 03, 2018, 08:08:03 AM »
We are not talking about free promotions. A free promotion from outside should not be allowed to influence ranking for paid sales. I can't get into Bookbub to look at the URL someone offered. Question: Take the Romance category, for example. On any one day how many Bookbub promos at .99 or above are in place during that day?
i have no idea what you're even saying now. I'm not sure you do either.

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Offline Squeakers

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #559 on: January 03, 2018, 08:11:01 AM »
I've just blogged about this topic again. Author Kristi Belcamino was just rank stripped for a third time. You can read the whole sorry saga here: https://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2018/01/02/new-year-old-problem-innocent-author-rank-stripped-for-third-time/

Note:

1. She was rank-stripped immediately on going free, just like in December.

2. She was rank-stripped before any promo services kicked in.

Seems it is necessary to state that explicitly before people start saying "it's BookBub!".

This isn't a BookBub problem (or some crazy attempt by Amazon to force people into AMS). It's an Amazon problem.

This is scary for us newbies. To read this was the third time this happened to her, and it was PRIOR to any promotion being run. It was as soon as she put it free. What if she hadn't planned any real promotion? What if she just decided to use it as a loss leader? What if.. what if.. what if.. is all we seem to be left with now. Guessing and speculating based on statistics that are hard to track.

I have been quietly observing the multitude of threads on this topic and it sucks that innocent authors are being caught up in this. I understand that it's merely amazon attempting to catch scammers (more than likely a glitch in the algos), I just wish there was a bit more transparency on their part. But asking for that is like asking for a unicorn for Christmas, it's just never going to happen.

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #560 on: January 03, 2018, 08:11:43 AM »
i have no idea what you're even saying now. I'm not sure you do either.

Enough said. Have a nice day.

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #561 on: January 03, 2018, 02:57:23 PM »
If Amazon had even the tiniest interest in 'protecting' customers from books that aren't actually popular but relying on advertising ad gimmicks...

Then why in the seven interlocking hells is almost every incentive Amazon offers for exclusivity something that 'artificially' inflates rank? Free and discount days do what all promos do. KU explicitly is unfairly weighed in terms of rank and algos.

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #562 on: January 03, 2018, 04:18:37 PM »
If Amazon had even the tiniest interest in 'protecting' customers from books that aren't actually popular but relying on advertising ad gimmicks...

Then why in the seven interlocking hells is almost every incentive Amazon offers for exclusivity something that 'artificially' inflates rank? Free and discount days do what all promos do. KU explicitly is unfairly weighed in terms of rank and algos.

AZ free and discount days do not produce enormous spikes of sales involving hundreds or maybe thousands of sales in one day. The same is true for AMS advertising. Again, the problem is the spike and the lag in the ranking coming down and that the customer is not aware of the spike and thinks the high ranking is a measure of popularity at full price. Authors who do Bookbubs to manipulate a high ranking and take advantage of it in sales at regular prices are essentially scamming the system. So Amazon strips the ranking to prevent the scam.

Offline Monique

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #563 on: January 03, 2018, 04:26:59 PM »
AZ free and discount days do not produce enormous spikes of sales involving hundreds or maybe thousands of sales in one day. The same is true for AMS advertising. Again, the problem is the spike and the lag in the ranking coming down and that the customer is not aware of the spike and thinks the high ranking is a measure of popularity at full price. Authors who do Bookbubs to manipulate a high ranking and take advantage of it in sales at regular prices are essentially scamming the system. So Amazon strips the ranking to prevent the scam.

No.

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Offline Tilly

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #564 on: January 03, 2018, 04:40:12 PM »
Authors who do Bookbubs to manipulate a high ranking and take advantage of it in sales at regular prices are essentially scamming the system. So Amazon strips the ranking to prevent the scam.

For someone who claimed to not even know what Bookbub was, you're making a lot of sweeping FALSE statements about the authors who use their site and the results. You have been told multiple times Amazon does NOT rank strip every book that uses a Bookbub, RobinReads, FreeBooksy, ENT or similar promo. As I pointed out I had a free Bookbub in October that resulted in a massive spike and 20,000+ downloads. If Amazon is rank stripping everyone as you claim, why wasn't my title rank stripped?

As already pointed out, the incident of rank stripping might only be something like 1 out of every 1,000 promos run by authors. It's not across the board. Something is going on that is triggering the automated process.

AZ free and discount days do not produce enormous spikes of sales involving hundreds or maybe thousands of sales in one day.

If you are referring to using Amazon's free days, then again you are wrong. I've run both Bookbub and other types of promos on KU titles, using free days that have resulted in several thousand downloads and that particular KU title was NEVER rank stripped.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 04:43:06 PM by Tilly »

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #565 on: January 03, 2018, 04:48:53 PM »
AZ free and discount days do not produce enormous spikes of sales involving hundreds or maybe thousands of sales in one day.
That is literally the point in having them. You use them, then promote the hell out of them.

I'm curious as to why you think they exist if there isn't the potential to produce sales spikes.

Quote
Again, the problem is the spike and the lag in the ranking coming down and that the customer is not aware of the spike and thinks the high ranking is a measure of popularity at full price.
And what about the KU long-term rank manipulation?

Quote
Authors who do Bookbubs to manipulate a high ranking and take advantage of it in sales at regular prices are essentially scamming the system. So Amazon strips the ranking to prevent the scam.

That scam is called ADVERTISING. Like that is the sole point of advertising. You're taking a shot to try and get momentum. This is true whether you're selling books or soda or movies.

And again, Amazon keeps giving people tools to do the exact thing you're calling a scam as well as DIRECTLY MANIPULATING THE RANKS as they see fit.

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Offline Becca Mills

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #566 on: January 03, 2018, 05:06:54 PM »
Locking temporarily to catch up.

ETA: Reopening, with a reminder for all that sometimes it's enough to articulate your own position clearly, accepting that the person(s) you're arguing against will not be convinced, but that others will benefit from the evidence you've offered. In other words, sometimes you just gotta let people be wrong on the internet.

Okay, carry on. This is an important thread, obviously.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 05:44:01 PM by Becca Mills »

Offline Becca Mills

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #567 on: January 03, 2018, 05:41:02 PM »
AZ free and discount days do not produce enormous spikes of sales involving hundreds or maybe thousands of sales in one day. The same is true for AMS advertising. Again, the problem is the spike and the lag in the ranking coming down and that the customer is not aware of the spike and thinks the high ranking is a measure of popularity at full price. Authors who do Bookbubs to manipulate a high ranking and take advantage of it in sales at regular prices are essentially scamming the system. So Amazon strips the ranking to prevent the scam.

Modi, given that somewhere between dozens and hundreds of KBoards authors have advertised on Bookbub, not to mention the thousands who've advertised on all the other promotion sites, the above essentially labels vast numbers of your fellow forum members scammers. We don't tolerate name-calling here. No more of this sort of language, please.

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #568 on: January 03, 2018, 06:09:09 PM »
Modi, given that somewhere between dozens and hundreds of KBoards authors have advertised on Bookbub, not to mention the thousands who've advertised on all the other promotion sites, the above essentially labels vast numbers of your fellow forum members scammers. We don't tolerate name-calling here. No more of this sort of language, please.

I am talking about authors who do Bookbubs at a low price to manipulate a high ranking and take advantage of it in sales at regular prices.  What should we call this manipulation?

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #569 on: January 03, 2018, 06:10:58 PM »
I am talking about authors who do Bookbubs at a low price to manipulate a high ranking and take advantage of it in sales at regular prices.  What should we call this manipulation?

Advertising. Every company does it.

Offline Becca Mills

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #570 on: January 03, 2018, 06:16:12 PM »
I am talking about authors who do Bookbubs at a low price to manipulate a high ranking and take advantage of it in sales at regular prices.  What should we call this manipulation?

Not "manipulation," which is pejorative. In general, I think you've made your point. Others disagree. Plenty of other threads out there.

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #571 on: January 03, 2018, 06:19:25 PM »
Advertising. Every company does it.

Not every company does it. It is not just advertising. As a customer who buys books at Amazon, I am being fooled into thinking a book has a high ranking at $4.99 while in reality it's high ranking is only at $0.99.



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« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 06:31:02 PM by Becca Mills »

Offline LadyG

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #572 on: January 03, 2018, 06:24:34 PM »
Not every company does it. It is not just advertising. As a customer who buys books at Amazon, I am being fooled into thinking a book has a high ranking at $4.99 while in reality it's high ranking is only at $0.99.


Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca

It's no different than a grocery store that runs a sale on one particular brand of potato chips, resulting in that one spot on the shelf being cleared. Is that creating a lie that there is a demand for that brand of potato chips? Is it a scam that is going to make customers think, "wow, I don't usually like that brand, but everyone else is buying it so it MUST be good"? Or is it .... Oh, what's the word I'm looking for here? Oh, yeah: ADVERTISING.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 06:31:40 PM by Becca Mills »

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #573 on: January 03, 2018, 06:27:11 PM »
Not every company does it. It is not just advertising. As a customer who buys books at Amazon, I am being fooled into thinking a book has a high ranking at $4.99 while in reality it's high ranking is only at $0.99.

Books don't stay at a high ranking unless they can still maintain sales at that higher price. If it's such an issue for you personally, wait a couple days to buy any book with a high rank that interests you.


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Offline Becca Mills

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Re: Amazon yanking sales ranking after a Bookbub promo
« Reply #574 on: January 03, 2018, 06:33:13 PM »
Modi, you may not participate further in this thread.

Everyone else, let's move on.