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Author Topic: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in  (Read 2876 times)  

Online Mylius Fox

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Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« on: October 24, 2017, 01:56:24 PM »
Just got the email. It'll be like that by default, and I was just wondering if I should leave it or manually set it back to double opt-in. Doesn't double opt-in help with not getting reported for spam later on?

Offline ibizwiz

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2017, 02:06:32 PM »
As one of the grandfathers of double-opt-in, this news hurts. I advise doing all possible to pre-qualify newsletter and list subscribers. Thanks for the heads up. If possible, could some Mailchimp user post the memo? 

Offline Puddleduck

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2017, 02:08:13 PM »
Thanks for posting this. I don't check the email I use for MailChimp often, so I probably wouldn't have seen this by the end of the month. I kept it as double opt in, for all the same reasons I made it double opt-in in the first place. (I don't remember the specifics of those reasons, TBH, since once I make a decision, I often don't bother keeping the details that led me to that decision cluttering my brain. Sherlock Holmes-style.) I think it was mostly about not getting reported as spam as easily, and the general concept that a person should definitely be the one signing themselves up, whereas single opt-in could theoretically let people sign other people up.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2017, 02:11:45 PM »
I got this and immediately went and reset it to double opt-in. I got a load of fake signups last year (possibly due to accidentally not having the double opt-in on my website) that ruined a launch and nearly got me kicked off Mailchimp, so I have no idea why they think this is a good idea.

Offline Gregg Bell

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2017, 02:13:41 PM »
Here's the email I got:


"When people agree with me I always feel that I must be wrong." Oscar Wilde
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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2017, 02:14:34 PM »
Hah, you beat me to it! Yah, I got that too and wondered WTH?

Offline Lynna

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 02:18:06 PM »
Thanks for posting this. I don't check the email I use for MailChimp often, so I probably wouldn't have seen this by the end of the month. I kept it as double opt in, for all the same reasons I made it double opt-in in the first place. (I don't remember the specifics of those reasons, TBH, since once I make a decision, I often don't bother keeping the details that led me to that decision cluttering my brain. Sherlock Holmes-style.) I think it was mostly about not getting reported as spam as easily, and the general concept that a person should definitely be the one signing themselves up, whereas single opt-in could theoretically let people sign other people up.

Same. Then there's also the fact that I'm lazy and on my website I say it's a double opt-in list to help make sure people only get on it if they want on it and it just seemed easier to check the boxes and click update than to change my website.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 02:18:33 PM »
Is this really so bad? My impression was that many readers don't know about double opt-in and believe that entering their email address once is enough. So in the end, they're not signed up at all.

Maybe an easy-peasy 'click here to unsubscribe' link at the beginning of each newsletter would help avert any problems? I only ever flag emails as spam if I can't find the unsubscribe button.

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Offline Lynna

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 02:23:07 PM »
Is this really so bad? My impression was that many readers don't know about double opt-in and believe that entering their email address once is enough. So in the end, they're not signed up at all.

Maybe an easy-peasy 'click here to unsubscribe' link at the beginning of each newsletter would help avert any problems? I only ever flag emails as spam if I can't find the unsubscribe button.

Throwing an unsubscribe at the top is a good practice anyway and I would recommend everyone do it just by default. I prefer double opt-in as both a list owner and a subscriber. Bots sign up for lists and I don't want to see my list overrun with garbage emails. Plus, eventually, it costs money. I don't cull subscribers, so I definitely don't want to open the door for junk addresses if I can do anything to help it. Double opt-in helps it.

(I've been culled by well-meaning list owners and it irritates the  p*ss  out of me as a subscriber.)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 02:26:39 PM by Lynna »

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2017, 02:28:57 PM »
I would keep it confirmed opt-in.

Double opt-in is a misnomer.  You're not opting-in twice.  You're signing up, receiving a confirmation that you signed up (which also serves to confirm the eMail address works; i.e., no typos, etc.) and then confirming everything is a-okay.

With unconfirmed opt-in, you really have no idea if the owner of the eMail address really subscribed to the list.  You will have a higher risk of spam reports as a result because there is nothing preventing anyone from submitting any eMail to subscribe to your list.  I know that if I get mail from a list I did not subscribe to, I do not unsubscribe--I flag it as spam.

If MailChimp is making unconfirmed opt-in their default, I have to wonder how that is going to affect their deliverability in the future as spam reports from MailChimp eMail addresses increase.  This is one of those things that seems like a very bad idea to me.

Offline Lynna

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2017, 02:37:38 PM »
If MailChimp is making unconfirmed opt-in their default, I have to wonder how that is going to affect their deliverability in the future as spam reports from MailChimp eMail addresses increase.  This is one of those things that seems like a very bad idea to me.

Here's something I found on their blog in a post about new forms:

Quote
These pop-up forms now give you the choice to make your forms single or double opt-in. And on October 31, the rest of MailChimps form options will offer that choice, too. Single opt-in has been a popular request from our customers over the years, and we wanted to provide you with the flexibility to choose the opt-in method that makes sense for your business. You can set your lists opt-in preferences in your settings.

With single opt-in, your subscribers will be able to enter their email address and join your list in one simple step. Weve also made the success message editable, so you can provide a quick message to your new subscribers after signup.

Link: https://blog.mailchimp.com/fresh-new-pop-up-forms-to-grow-your-list/

Reading between the lines (and I could be totally wrong), I think they decided to offer this single opt-in as an option but the only way to make it work reliably probably meant they had to set all the old forms to single. By requiring us to choose, we're probably going into a queue that's getting ported over to the double. And for new stuff, you choose which you prefer as you set up your forms.

Offline Puddleduck

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2017, 02:41:28 PM »
If MailChimp is making unconfirmed opt-in their default, I have to wonder how that is going to affect their deliverability in the future as spam reports from MailChimp eMail addresses increase.  This is one of those things that seems like a very bad idea to me.

I have that concern as well.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2017, 03:41:10 PM »
I got a load of fake signups last year (possibly due to accidentally not having the double opt-in on my website) that ruined a launch and nearly got me kicked off Mailchimp, so I have no idea why they think this is a good idea.

Money.  The more obstacles placed in front of each potential subscriber, the fewer subscribers you'll have, and the less Mailchimp can charge you each month.  The more subscribers you obtain, the more Mailchimp can charge you each month.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2017, 03:45:21 PM »
Yeah, this is total bs.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2017, 04:52:59 PM »
This is bad news. Scammers will flood the platform, spam sign-ups will soar, we'll no longer have the free thank you emails to dole out freebies or whatever, deliverability will fall along with open rates, etc.

But MailChimp will make more as it pushes us further towards automation and boosts our lists so we send more email. More email of lower quality, that's what everyone wants, right?

Right?

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2017, 05:09:58 PM »
I really don't see the problem.

You can still change.

Double optin severely reduces signups when accessed through mobile phones. I've been using single optin through Mailerlite for two years. No flood of spam reports, no flood of useless subscribers.

Instafreebie and Bookfunnel signups are single optin anyway.

And you can still use double optin if you want.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2017, 05:12:45 PM »
My fears are less surrounding what good actors will do, but what bad actors do with the freedom that single opt-in affords - because that will affect MailChimp's overall deliverability.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2017, 05:17:00 PM »
My fears are less surrounding what good actors will do, but what bad actors do with the freedom that single opt-in affords - because that will affect MailChimp's overall deliverability.

Mailchimps overall deliverability is much overrated. When I changed from Mailchimp to Mailerlite, my open rates jumped 10 percentage points.

TBH I just think that this is Mailchimp getting with the times. Double optin is a major pain in the butt is you really want the newsletter, but you're on mobile.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2017, 05:22:22 PM »
I'm tempted to do my next send to unopens from Mailerlite to see if that shakes a few extra loose.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2017, 05:39:08 PM »
Is Mailerlite the service that just had that big snafu with loss of automation sequence data, or am I confusing it with something else?

Offline Going Incognito

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2017, 07:04:06 PM »
If your double opt in either doesn't let me sign up on mobile or makes me jump thru CAPTCHA hoops, I decide I don't want your list all that much after all.

Offline Anarchist

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2017, 07:06:39 PM »
Is Mailerlite the service that just had that big snafu with loss of automation sequence data...?

Yup.
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Offline MelanieCellier

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2017, 07:26:13 PM »
TBH I just think that this is Mailchimp getting with the times. Double optin is a major pain in the butt is you really want the newsletter, but you're on mobile.

Can someone assume I'm a tech dunce (not a big leap from reality, sadly) and explain why double opt-in makes it harder for mobile sign ups?

I went straight in and clicked to be double opt-in because I understood that was industry standard best practice, but it sounds like there's not agreement on that, after all. I also admit it's because it's the easier thing to do for now since everything is currently set up to let people know that's how it works and I give my list magnet in the thank you email. Does anyone know if the automated thank you email needs to be reset up, or if it will just stay the same if you choose to stick with double opt-in?

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2017, 07:32:22 PM »
Does anyone know why MC is changing course? Weren't they the ones who led the required double opt-in PLUS Captcha requirements? When I got the email today I was shocked. Seems like a huge turnaround for fighting SPAMS.

Offline Tulonsae

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2017, 10:37:26 PM »
I'm not sure how the double opt-in is hard for mobile. I sign up for double opt-in on my cell phone without any issues. Are you saying that most people don't have email access on their mobile devices? (Even my non-techie friends can read their email on their phones.)

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2017, 11:37:32 PM »
2014:

Mailchimp: we'll make people complete mandatory captchas and double-optins
Authors: *outrage*

2017:

Mailchimp: we'll make single optin the default. You can change to double optin if you want
Authors: *outrage*

Really, there is not much difference except you lose subscribers with double optin. The idea that the subscribers you lose are uninterested is a fallacy. I've missed many newsletters because the optin email never arrived. People are interested, but when that happens, they shrug and move on.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2017, 12:28:49 AM »
I'm not sure how the double opt-in is hard for mobile. I sign up for double opt-in on my cell phone without any issues. Are you saying that most people don't have email access on their mobile devices? (Even my non-techie friends can read their email on their phones.)

Can someone assume I'm a tech dunce (not a big leap from reality, sadly) and explain why double opt-in makes it harder for mobile sign ups?

On mine, I think it's CAPTCHA that's not compatible. I click to sign up from my phone, never get a CAPTCHA so therefore never pass it or prove I'm human, so therefore never get the confirmation or the thank you. I assume it was a single opt in and go about my day but never get an email or I get so frustrated trying to prove Im human on a phone that I give up. Other than for writing Im 99% phone and 1% computer, partially because I do get email on the phone. So why open the laptop unless Im writing? I book shop and read on the phone so if I cant also follow your crumbs on the phone I forget about you.

Offline Nicholas Erik

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2017, 12:41:09 AM »
Really, there is not much difference except you lose subscribers with double optin. The idea that the subscribers you lose are uninterested is a fallacy. I've missed many newsletters because the optin email never arrived. People are interested, but when that happens, they shrug and move on.

I have to agree. All that double opt-in really does is reduce your sign-ups by 30%. Look at the unconfirmed subs; 30%+ never click the confirmation email. As a subscriber, double opt-in makes the experience far more cumbersome and time-involving, not to mention that the confirmation emails often don't arrive, or they get sent to spam. Convenience is huge, especially on mobile. The number of emails or comments that ask "where's my book?" or say "I didn't get it" when I run Facebook Lead Gen ads for a free book is illuminating  - and that's because it takes 5 minutes for Facebook to send the email info to my ESP. That's an eternity in internet years. If it's not instant these days, you're losing a lot of people's attention.

Double opt-in does little besides curtail your list's growth. No idea why this became suggested best practice, but after testing both, it's a myth and counterproductive in most instances.

Also, people will report the confirmation email as spam (!) at about the same rate as the single opt-in welcome email in my experience, so it doesn't help in that regard. Depending on your email provider, I believe spam reports on the confirmation email don't count against you, but you'd have to check your ESP's documentation.

Nick

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2017, 12:46:18 AM »
Plus how many even remember double confirming when theyre in the spam mood anyway? Theyve slept since then.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2017, 01:31:54 AM »
The bit that bothers me is that the sign up thank you email won't be shown.  Does this mean the welcome email after it won't be shown? That's where my links to my free books live, so do I need to change them.

I get so many new subs who, instead of clicking the confirmation link, send me an email saying 'yes, add me to the list' that I think I'll give it a go. If it causes trouble, I'll change. But, I intend to download all my lists before that happens.


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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2017, 01:52:43 AM »
lol someone at MailChimp forgot to update the help pages:

Quote
Why double opt-in?

Double-opt requires new subscribers to confirm their signup, so you know they want to receive emails from you. Double opt-in lists have better subscriber engagement levels over time. This means more opens and clicks, and fewer bounces and unsubscribes. Double opt-in also safeguards your account against malicious spambots and scammers.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2017, 05:31:41 AM »
lol someone at MailChimp forgot to update the help pages:

On that note, I couldn't find where I should switch it back to double opt-in... although now I'm on the fence whether I should. :D

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2017, 05:39:21 AM »
On that note, I couldn't find where I should switch it back to double opt-in... although now I'm on the fence whether I should. :D

Yeah, I feel like if single opt in is going to become the norm now, whatever we think about that, then if you stay with double opt in you might just lose (even more) people during the process.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2017, 06:45:52 AM »
But beware that MC is VERY strict about the 10% Unsub rule. I have an author friend who got screwed many times because of this and finally moved to Mailerlite. She really tried to comply after getting lists from X-promos. She tried segmented her lists to emails to 100 recipients each, and still when there were more than 10 unsubs, MC penalized her. I don't recall exactly what happened but I think the first segment that got 10 unsubs, she got a warning. Then when another segment got 10+ unsubs, MC eliminated that segment and told her she had to contact those subscribers by another way of emailing (like Yahoo), and ask them to re-sub again.

I'm not a tech expert and I'm actually very baffled on what to do about my own set up right now. I have a welcome email that includes a link to a landing page for all sort of goodies set at part of the automation sequence after double opt-in. If I select single opt-in, will subscribers still be able to get my welcome email?

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2017, 07:08:05 AM »
I use a hybrid approach that leverages a reader magnet.

Step 1: someone signs up

Step 2: he receives an email that contains a link to the promised reader magnet.

Step 3: if he clicks the link, he's in. If he doesn't click the link, he receives no other emails from me.

This approach streamlines the traditional double opt-in process (sign up ---> confirmation email ---> and then, the email with the link to the reader magnet).


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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2017, 07:34:11 AM »
But beware that MC is VERY strict about the 10% Unsub rule. I have an author friend who got screwed many times because of this and finally moved to Mailerlite. She really tried to comply after getting lists from X-promos. She tried segmented her lists to emails to 100 recipients each, and still when there were more than 10 unsubs, MC penalized her. I don't recall exactly what happened but I think the first segment that got 10 unsubs, she got a warning. Then when another segment got 10+ unsubs, MC eliminated that segment and told her she had to contact those subscribers by another way of emailing (like Yahoo), and ask them to re-sub again.

I'm not a tech expert and I'm actually very baffled on what to do about my own set up right now. I have a welcome email that includes a link to a landing page for all sort of goodies set at part of the automation sequence after double opt-in. If I select single opt-in, will subscribers still be able to get my welcome email?
That's just what's worrying me.


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Offline Lynna

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2017, 08:04:42 AM »
All I'm going to say is that when/if I get newsletters I haven't subscribed to, and it seems to happen frequently for a few email addresses I have, I spam report those with great prejudice. :D

I don't want to risk a bunch of spam reports to gain a few more subscribers.

As for capcha? It's not on any of my signup forms and never has been (maybe they changed at some point before I started my list. Who knows?). I just tried a trial sub to one of my lists through my computer to double check that it's still that way and there is definitely no captcha. Just checked my mobile too. No captcha. No problem signing up at all. I just don't see what the problem is with double opt-in. I like it, as a subscriber and a list owner, so my choice is obvious. :)

Offline Bob Stewart

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2017, 08:07:15 AM »
I use a hybrid approach that leverages a reader magnet.

Step 1: someone signs up

Step 2: he receives an email that contains a link to the promised reader magnet.

Step 3: if he clicks the link, he's in. If he doesn't click the link, he receives no other emails from me.

This approach streamlines the traditional double opt-in process (sign up ---> confirmation email ---> and then, the email with the link to the reader magnet).

Anarchist,

How does that work functionally? Does the URL for the magnet use a redirect?  Or does just loading the magnet initiates a background task?

Offline Lynna

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2017, 08:11:00 AM »
I use a hybrid approach that leverages a reader magnet.

Step 1: someone signs up

Step 2: he receives an email that contains a link to the promised reader magnet.

Step 3: if he clicks the link, he's in. If he doesn't click the link, he receives no other emails from me.

This approach streamlines the traditional double opt-in process (sign up ---> confirmation email ---> and then, the email with the link to the reader magnet).

That's a great way to have what's in essence a double opt-in without it technically being double. I don't give stuff away to get people on my list, but if I did, I'd consider something like this a good alternative to confirmation emails. Because I can accept that if you're sending multiple emails right away (confirmation, links, etc) to new subscribers it can become overwhelming. I got a bunch like that once (confirm, link to get a freebie email, thank you for getting the freebie email here's another if you click this link, blah blah) and it was probably my fastest unsubscribe ever. :-) I am not that target market.

Offline Anarchist

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2017, 08:16:45 AM »
Anarchist,

How does that work functionally? Does the URL for the magnet use a redirect?  Or does just loading the magnet initiates a background task?

The link to the magnet is a redirect. It goes through ConvertKit's servers, auto-confirming the opt-in, before sending the visitor to a download page on my site.
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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2017, 09:27:46 AM »
The link to the magnet is a redirect. It goes through ConvertKit's servers, auto-confirming the opt-in, before sending the visitor to a download page on my site.

Sharp, now all I need is a reader magnet and something to sell-through. :D

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2017, 01:31:52 PM »
I have a welcome email that includes a link to a landing page for all sort of goodies set at part of the automation sequence after double opt-in. If I select single opt-in, will subscribers still be able to get my welcome email?

I don't see why the welcome email wouldn't go out with single opt-in. It's just based on people joining your list. It doesn't matter if they join via single opt-in or double opt-in. Like the "trigger" says: 'it will go out (whenever you have it set to) after subscribers join your list.'

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Offline Bill Hiatt

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2017, 01:53:10 PM »
I have to agree. All that double opt-in really does is reduce your sign-ups by 30%. Look at the unconfirmed subs; 30%+ never click the confirmation email.
I have to ask--are the people who don't click on the confirmation email likely to be your highest quality subscribers? I'm assuming these aren't all cases in which someone doesn't get the email.

Everything I've signed up for recently has been double opt-in. I understand when mail providers might like single, if, as others have pointed out, that's a way they can make more money.

I've had two experiences with single opt-in environments, and in both cases, they were flooded with bot-generated subscriptions. Both were websites, but is there any reason to think a mailing list would be any different? Obviously, it is sometimes, or some of you wouldn't have had good experiences with it, but I'm not understanding why.


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Offline Nicholas Erik

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2017, 02:35:17 PM »
I have to ask--are the people who don't click on the confirmation email likely to be your highest quality subscribers? I'm assuming these aren't all cases in which someone doesn't get the email.

Everything I've signed up for recently has been double opt-in. I understand when mail providers might like single, if, as others have pointed out, that's a way they can make more money.

I've had two experiences with single opt-in environments, and in both cases, they were flooded with bot-generated subscriptions. Both were websites, but is there any reason to think a mailing list would be any different? Obviously, it is sometimes, or some of you wouldn't have had good experiences with it, but I'm not understanding why.

I understand these concerns, but I think they are more internet myth than reality.

I don't think this is some great sort of Machiavellian move on Mailchimp's part to generate additional revenue. I think they're making the switch because the web is becoming more and more dominated by mobile, and traditional double opt-in really doesn't work in that environment. Secondly, the increase in cost of running a list with more subscribers is generally nominal in comparison to the value those additional subscribers generate, so I wouldn't be concerned about higher costs anyway (and if that is a concern, switch to Mailerlite, which is very inexpensive).

I've never really bought the "not your best subscribers" argument. First, most of the new people subscribing to your newsletter will be marginally interested or semi-fans - not huge fans. They might've read a book or a story, and want to check out more. The purpose of the list is to help convert these people into your best subscribers/true fans, not necessarily gather them right off the bat. Secondly, people receive 50+ emails a day, on the low end. Your confirmation link can easily just get buried in the inbox maelstrom, even if the person is interested. It's really easy to miss one email. If someone doesn't open one email, that doesn't mean they're not interested; but double opt-in only gives you one shot. If someone doesn't open/click ten emails, they're almost certainly not interested. And I have systems in place to regularly clean my list, so these people don't get emails they don't want, and I don't have to pay for them.

I have zero bots signing up for my list, even on the occasions when I was spending $100+ a day on Facebook. It's a non-issue.

Obviously, everyone can test this and see what works for them.

Nick

Offline Tulonsae

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2017, 04:18:20 PM »
I agree that captcha is a problem, especially on mobile.

But I guess I'm old or something. Because I like confirmation emails. It ensures that someone else didn't type in the email address (which I used to see happen a lot back in the good old days). But more importantly, it ensures that I typed my email address correctly. Which is sometimes difficult to do on mobile.

Pretty much every site I sign up to does the confirmation email. Not sure why it's an issue for mailing lists.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2017, 07:49:31 PM »
I've had two experiences with single opt-in environments, and in both cases, they were flooded with bot-generated subscriptions.


I have zero bots signing up for my list, even on the occasions when I was spending $100+ a day on Facebook. It's a non-issue.


How can you tell if an email on your list is a bot email?

Offline Nicholas Erik

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2017, 08:16:07 PM »
How can you tell if an email on your list is a bot email?

Basically the same way you can tell if someone used a throwaway address to sign-up for your list. For a throwaway email, it might be like bluejaysredsoxyankees26666 - e.g. something that a person probably isn't using for their main email. For a non-real user, it'll be some weird string of numbers/letters or bizarre domain extension, based out of certain areas of the world that aren't heavily English speaking and wouldn't be interested in your books. Or you'd get a weird spike in sign-ups when you're not running a corresponding promotion or ad campaign. A massive spike in spam reports would be another one, if someone else was subscribing legitimate emails to your list without permission for some reason.

Naturally, you don't know 100% for sure. To be clear, when I say "I have zero bots signing up for my list," I don't know that there are literally zero. I mean that I have had zero problems with bots when using single opt-in, even when gathering cold subscribers who have never heard my name before. Unlike, say, the contact form on my website, which has no CAPTCHA and thus results in 3 - 5 spam emails a day sent to me,  there's no real incentive to sign-up a massive number of fake subs to someone else's account. I guess a bot could subscribe to get your email address to spam you. Otherwise, it just seems kind of pointless.

Nick

Offline Going Incognito

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2017, 08:39:09 PM »
Ah, gotcha. Thanks.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2017, 09:32:02 PM »
Basically the same way you can tell if someone used a throwaway address to sign-up for your list. For a throwaway email, it might be like bluejaysredsoxyankees26666 - e.g. something that a person probably isn't using for their main email. For a non-real user, it'll be some weird string of numbers/letters or bizarre domain extension, based out of certain areas of the world that aren't heavily English speaking and wouldn't be interested in your books. Or you'd get a weird spike in sign-ups when you're not running a corresponding promotion or ad campaign. A massive spike in spam reports would be another one, if someone else was subscribing legitimate emails to your list without permission for some reason.

Naturally, you don't know 100% for sure. To be clear, when I say "I have zero bots signing up for my list," I don't know that there are literally zero. I mean that I have had zero problems with bots when using single opt-in, even when gathering cold subscribers who have never heard my name before. Unlike, say, the contact form on my website, which has no CAPTCHA and thus results in 3 - 5 spam emails a day sent to me,  there's no real incentive to sign-up a massive number of fake subs to someone else's account. I guess a bot could subscribe to get your email address to spam you. Otherwise, it just seems kind of pointless.

Nick

I've learned (through doing stupid things--like assuming and making embarrassingly wrong decisions), that assuming that an address on your list is or isn't legit based on the fact that "it looks weird" is always going to bite you in the butt. People used weirdalias@gmail.com ALL THE TIME. For the same reason people come here with anonymous user handles.

Someone who uses a disposable email is not a bot signup.

I've seen bot signups in KingSumo giveaways. The way you can tell is that you suddenly, in the space of a few hours, get thousand entries and the email addresses all have exactly the same format.

In your author list? You really can't tell.

Offline Puddleduck

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2017, 07:44:59 AM »
I've learned (through doing stupid things--like assuming and making embarrassingly wrong decisions), that assuming that an address on your list is or isn't legit based on the fact that "it looks weird" is always going to bite you in the butt. People used weirdalias@gmail.com ALL THE TIME. For the same reason people come here with anonymous user handles.

I once asked a guy for his email address, and he gave me this big sigh. He had a really common name, so he got a little too creative when trying to come up with a unique email address, and it ended up looking like a string of nonsense, but once he explained it, I could see the reason behind it. It's like with some of those personalized license plates. Just because it looks like gibberish doesn't necessarily mean it is.

Offline AlexaKang

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2017, 07:54:33 AM »
What I'd like to know if is if I can have double opt-in without CAPTCHA. I can't see any way to do that on MC. Anyone knows?

Offline Lynna

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2017, 08:05:40 AM »
What I'd like to know if is if I can have double opt-in without CAPTCHA. I can't see any way to do that on MC. Anyone knows?

I have double opt-in without captcha from Mailchimp. I mentioned it in an earlier post. I can't remember how I got it but that's what I have with both lists. One list is 4 years old (?) I think. The other is two-ish.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2017, 08:07:54 AM »
What I'd like to know if is if I can have double opt-in without CAPTCHA. I can't see any way to do that on MC. Anyone knows?
I have double opt in on MC; I don't use CAPTCHA. All you do is go through all the forms and tick the ones you want to use; if you don't want to use CAPTCHA don't tick it.


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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2017, 07:39:59 AM »
Well, now they sent me another email saying that, since my primary mailing address is in the EU, my list will remain double opt-in by default.  ::) Apparently there's something called the General Data Protection Regulation that's about to drop...

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2017, 08:02:32 AM »
What I'd like to know if is if I can have double opt-in without CAPTCHA. I can't see any way to do that on MC. Anyone knows?

It's been awhile since I created my forms, but if hasn't changed since they implemented the captcha requirement it worked like this:

If MC hosts your form (i.e. you're giving the eepurl address link for subscribers to sign up), you can't turn off captcha. But if you create an embedded form that's hosted on your website (the version that gives you a chunk of html to copy to your site after you create the form), then there is an option to turn off captcha. If I remember correctly it was some kind of tick-box at the bottom of the page where you create the embedded form.

Hope that helps!

Offline jaehaerys

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2017, 08:50:23 AM »
I understand these concerns, but I think they are more internet myth than reality.

I don't think this is some great sort of Machiavellian move on Mailchimp's part to generate additional revenue. I think they're making the switch because the web is becoming more and more dominated by mobile, and traditional double opt-in really doesn't work in that environment. Secondly, the increase in cost of running a list with more subscribers is generally nominal in comparison to the value those additional subscribers generate, so I wouldn't be concerned about higher costs anyway (and if that is a concern, switch to Mailerlite, which is very inexpensive).


Businesses are interested in making money. If making this change weren't about money they wouldn't do it.


Offline Vinny OHare

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2017, 09:22:08 AM »
I don't understand why a major company like this would remove double opt in. If anything they should be making it triple opt in or something. I predict that spammers are gonna flock to their service.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2017, 10:22:17 AM »
Mailchimp sent out another update today: for all users based in the EU, double opt-in will REMAIN - as it's the law in the EU.

Isn't Canada the same?

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Offline jaehaerys

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2017, 12:09:49 PM »
Mailchimp sent out another update today: for all users based in the EU, double opt-in will REMAIN - as it's the law in the EU.

Isn't Canada the same?


I'm in Canada, received the notification they were moving to single opt-in starting tomorrow, and I had to check the box in my preferences to keep the double opt-in.


Offline thevoiceofone

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2017, 08:57:36 AM »
Just got the email. It'll be like that by default, and I was just wondering if I should leave it or manually set it back to double opt-in. Doesn't double opt-in help with not getting reported for spam later on?

THREE GOOD REASONS TO USE DOUBLE OPT-IN

1. Anyone online can use a throw away email to get your FREE giveaway for signing up and then never use that email again ( no use to you)

2. You could end up getting a lot of SPAM complaints because of some guy or gal using someone's email to sign up just for a laugh. ( that can get your account suspended and you can't do squat)

3. But the biggest one is.... How do email services make money? (By having you go from free to paid and from low paid to high paid accounts ) The easiest and only way for them to do that is hire someone in india, and then turn off double opt-in on ALL accounts and then pay them pennies to fill up ALL accounts with FAKE emails.  Now you suddenly end up in a higher package or going from free to paid without any control.

Double opt-in protects you and can save you a lot of money.

Don't buy into this crap about it will make building your list faster. ( Of course it will but that list might be of no use to you and it might cost you more than you have to spend )
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 09:02:50 AM by thevoiceofone »

Offline Going Incognito

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2017, 08:31:00 PM »
2. You could end up getting a lot of SPAM complaints because of some guy or gal using someone's email to sign up just for a laugh. ( that can get your account suspended and you can't do squat)

Ok, maybe I can see a bored 12 year old doing this. It's like calling someone and asking if their refrigerator is running. And whoever they're messing with? They hit unsubscribe or spam. Like once would this be a thing. For this to trigger so many spam complaints you get suspended is a reach, at best. The 'victim' would be unsubscribing or reporting many lists, but he'd only be one name on your list. Now the other way? If someone mass adds many various real emails to your list and they all report you? You're being targeted, specifically. And if that's the case, I'm thinking a suspension is the least of your worries.


3. But the biggest one is.... How do email services make money? (By having you go from free to paid and from low paid to high paid accounts ) The easiest and only way for them to do that is hire someone in india, and then turn off double opt-in on ALL accounts and then pay them pennies to fill up ALL accounts with FAKE emails.  Now you suddenly end up in a higher package or going from free to paid without any control.

Seems like sabotaging their own business would be a one way ticket to no longer having a business at all. I can not see any legit newsletter company complying to the spam acts with one hand while killing their own chance to stay in business with the other. That would be an insane business practice.

Offline Anma Natsu

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2017, 08:39:02 PM »
Ok, maybe I can see a bored 12 year old doing this. It's like calling someone and asking if their refrigerator is running. And whoever they're messing with? They hit unsubscribe or spam. Like once would this be a thing. For this to trigger so many spam complaints you get suspended is a reach, at best. The 'victim' would be unsubscribing or reporting many lists, but he'd only be one name on your list. Now the other way? If someone mass adds many various real emails to your list and they all report you? You're being targeted, specifically. And if that's the case, I'm thinking a suspension is the least of your worries.

When I switched from Mailchimp to Mailerlite, Mailerlite's form did not have a captcha option.  I got over 400 bot spam sign ups in less than an hour.  If I hadn't had double opt in on, those would have all ended up on my newsletter and yes, that would have been a high enough level of spam complaints to likely get my account shut down.  I only even realized it happened so fast because some of those emails had auto respondser, like support email address and stuff.  The bots aren't personal, they don't target specific people, they just hit any site with a form they can find and throw in their spam.  I quickly made my own form with a captcha to stop that crap ASAP.

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2017, 08:44:36 PM »
When I switched from Mailchimp to Mailerlite, Mailerlite's form did not have a captcha option.  I got over 400 bot spam sign ups in less than an hour.  If I hadn't had double opt in on, those would have all ended up on my newsletter and yes, that would have been a high enough level of spam complaints to likely get my account shut down.  I only even realized it happened so fast because some of those emails had auto respondser, like support email address and stuff.  The bots aren't personal, they don't target specific people, they just hit any site with a form they can find and throw in their spam.  I quickly made my own form with a captcha to stop that crap ASAP.

Fair enough. Maybe I dont understand the point of the bots then. If bots are signing up to your list and then you send an email to those bot addresses, do the bots report you as spam? Or the bots fill out your form with someone's real email? And what's the point of that? You send an email to a stranger that never signed up. What does the bot owner get from that? What's the point?

Heading off to Google what the point of this is.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 08:53:59 PM by Going Incognito »

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Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2017, 04:25:24 AM »
Fair enough. Maybe I dont understand the point of the bots then. If bots are signing up to your list and then you send an email to those bot addresses, do the bots report you as spam? Or the bots fill out your form with someone's real email? And what's the point of that? You send an email to a stranger that never signed up. What does the bot owner get from that? What's the point?

Heading off to Google what the point of this is.
I'm speculating here, but I think bots look for ways in. What they're really looking for, probably, is sites where subscribers have access, for example the ability to post comments that don't go through moderation. Then they spread spam through post comments.

However, I think a lot of bots aren't built to distinguish what kind of link they're hitting. They hit a link, they go to a signup form--and they don't know what they're signing up for.

Two examples. When I was teaching, there was a period of time when I had a classroom website for online testing and other things hosted by a company. The company forgot to turn on the captcha for signups. Instead of seeing the number of signups I would have expected (the same number as I had students), Within a day, I had at least a hundred more than I had students, and the number went up every time I looked. Then I started looking at user data. The form included city and country info, and every "person" who wasn't my own student had a nonsensical combination. "No," I thought to myself. "Las Vegas isn't in Nigeria. Paris isn't in Iraq. Moscow isn't in the UK."

Bots! (Georgraphy wasn't part of their program!) What profit was there in signing up for a class website? Well, they could have spammed the forums, but those weren't even set up at the time the signups were pouring in. The bots had no idea what they were signing up for. They signed up on the off-chance it would give them access to some venue where they could propagate spam.

Second example: When I started running my author website, the same thing happened. The junk signups were coming in more slowly, but they were definitely coming in. I got my captcha set up, and they stopped.

Bots that sign up for mailing lists probably have no idea that's what they're signing up for. I suspect they hit every signup form they encounter, just on the off-chance that there's a way to spam something through it.

I'm not as worried, over prank signups--though anyone who thinks those would hardly ever happened hasn't dealt with a large number of teenagers. I would be worried about bot signups making my email account more and more expensive.

I don't think Mailchimp and other companies are encouraging that pattern on purpose. It's just what happens. If you have an open window with no screen, insects will get in. If you have an open signup with no optin or captcha, bots will get in.


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