KB Featured Book
Stone and Silt
by Harvey Chute

$2.99
Kindle Edition published 2013-08-14
Bestseller ranking: 713665

Product Description
Big Al's Books & Pals 2014 Readers' Choice Awards: Young Adult Nominee

A ruthless murder and a stolen shipment of gold.

At school, sixteen-year-old Nikaia Wales endures the taunts of bullies who call her a “half-breed.” At home, she worries about how her family will react if she reveals her growing feelings for the quiet boy next door.

Those are soon the least of her troubles. Nikaia discovers a hidden cache of gold, and when police find a corpse nearby, her father becomes a suspect. Worse, Elias Doyle is circling, hungry to avenge his brother’s death.

Nikaia desperately searches for clues to save her father. In her quest to find the killer, she learns about the power of family, friendship, and young love....

Author Topic: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in  (Read 2879 times)  

Offline Patty Jansen

  • Status: Isaac Asimov
  • ********
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
  • Sydney, Australia
  • Destroyer of Science Fiction
    • View Profile
    • Patty Jansen Author of SF and fantasy
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2017, 11:37:32 PM »
2014:

Mailchimp: we'll make people complete mandatory captchas and double-optins
Authors: *outrage*

2017:

Mailchimp: we'll make single optin the default. You can change to double optin if you want
Authors: *outrage*

Really, there is not much difference except you lose subscribers with double optin. The idea that the subscribers you lose are uninterested is a fallacy. I've missed many newsletters because the optin email never arrived. People are interested, but when that happens, they shrug and move on.

Offline Going Incognito

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1684
  • Gender: Female
  • It's always the quiet ones...
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2017, 12:28:49 AM »
I'm not sure how the double opt-in is hard for mobile. I sign up for double opt-in on my cell phone without any issues. Are you saying that most people don't have email access on their mobile devices? (Even my non-techie friends can read their email on their phones.)

Can someone assume I'm a tech dunce (not a big leap from reality, sadly) and explain why double opt-in makes it harder for mobile sign ups?

On mine, I think it's CAPTCHA that's not compatible. I click to sign up from my phone, never get a CAPTCHA so therefore never pass it or prove I'm human, so therefore never get the confirmation or the thank you. I assume it was a single opt in and go about my day but never get an email or I get so frustrated trying to prove Im human on a phone that I give up. Other than for writing Im 99% phone and 1% computer, partially because I do get email on the phone. So why open the laptop unless Im writing? I book shop and read on the phone so if I cant also follow your crumbs on the phone I forget about you.

Offline Nicholas Erik

  • Status: Arthur Conan Doyle
  • ****
  • Posts: 772
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2017, 12:41:09 AM »
Really, there is not much difference except you lose subscribers with double optin. The idea that the subscribers you lose are uninterested is a fallacy. I've missed many newsletters because the optin email never arrived. People are interested, but when that happens, they shrug and move on.

I have to agree. All that double opt-in really does is reduce your sign-ups by 30%. Look at the unconfirmed subs; 30%+ never click the confirmation email. As a subscriber, double opt-in makes the experience far more cumbersome and time-involving, not to mention that the confirmation emails often don't arrive, or they get sent to spam. Convenience is huge, especially on mobile. The number of emails or comments that ask "where's my book?" or say "I didn't get it" when I run Facebook Lead Gen ads for a free book is illuminating  - and that's because it takes 5 minutes for Facebook to send the email info to my ESP. That's an eternity in internet years. If it's not instant these days, you're losing a lot of people's attention.

Double opt-in does little besides curtail your list's growth. No idea why this became suggested best practice, but after testing both, it's a myth and counterproductive in most instances.

Also, people will report the confirmation email as spam (!) at about the same rate as the single opt-in welcome email in my experience, so it doesn't help in that regard. Depending on your email provider, I believe spam reports on the confirmation email don't count against you, but you'd have to check your ESP's documentation.

Nick

Offline Going Incognito

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1684
  • Gender: Female
  • It's always the quiet ones...
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2017, 12:46:18 AM »
Plus how many even remember double confirming when theyre in the spam mood anyway? Theyve slept since then.

Online Doglover

  • Status: A A Milne
  • ******
  • Posts: 4183
  • Gender: Female
  • Huntingdon, United Kingdom
  • If you want real love, buy a dog.
    • View Profile
    • Margaret Brazear Author
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2017, 01:31:54 AM »
The bit that bothers me is that the sign up thank you email won't be shown.  Does this mean the welcome email after it won't be shown? That's where my links to my free books live, so do I need to change them.

I get so many new subs who, instead of clicking the confirmation link, send me an email saying 'yes, add me to the list' that I think I'll give it a go. If it causes trouble, I'll change. But, I intend to download all my lists before that happens.


The past is another country; they do things differently there
Margaret Brazear | Website | Blog | Facebook | Readers Group

Offline dgaughran

  • Status: Dostoevsky
  • ******
  • Posts: 3372
  • Gender: Male
  • Dublin
  • Let's Get Digital
    • View Profile
    • David Gaughran
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2017, 01:52:43 AM »
lol someone at MailChimp forgot to update the help pages:

Quote
Why double opt-in?

Double-opt requires new subscribers to confirm their signup, so you know they want to receive emails from you. Double opt-in lists have better subscriber engagement levels over time. This means more opens and clicks, and fewer bounces and unsubscribes. Double opt-in also safeguards your account against malicious spambots and scammers.

David Gaughran | mailing list | blog | website | facebook | twitter
LET'S GET DIGITAL 2 Free for purchasers of the 1st edition! Instructions here

Online Mylius Fox

  • Status: Jane Austen
  • ***
  • Posts: 291
  • Cognitive syntactical wizard.
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2017, 05:31:41 AM »
lol someone at MailChimp forgot to update the help pages:

On that note, I couldn't find where I should switch it back to double opt-in... although now I'm on the fence whether I should. :D

Offline dgaughran

  • Status: Dostoevsky
  • ******
  • Posts: 3372
  • Gender: Male
  • Dublin
  • Let's Get Digital
    • View Profile
    • David Gaughran
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2017, 05:39:21 AM »
On that note, I couldn't find where I should switch it back to double opt-in... although now I'm on the fence whether I should. :D

Yeah, I feel like if single opt in is going to become the norm now, whatever we think about that, then if you stay with double opt in you might just lose (even more) people during the process.

David Gaughran | mailing list | blog | website | facebook | twitter
LET'S GET DIGITAL 2 Free for purchasers of the 1st edition! Instructions here

Offline AlexaKang

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1908
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2017, 06:45:52 AM »
But beware that MC is VERY strict about the 10% Unsub rule. I have an author friend who got screwed many times because of this and finally moved to Mailerlite. She really tried to comply after getting lists from X-promos. She tried segmented her lists to emails to 100 recipients each, and still when there were more than 10 unsubs, MC penalized her. I don't recall exactly what happened but I think the first segment that got 10 unsubs, she got a warning. Then when another segment got 10+ unsubs, MC eliminated that segment and told her she had to contact those subscribers by another way of emailing (like Yahoo), and ask them to re-sub again.

I'm not a tech expert and I'm actually very baffled on what to do about my own set up right now. I have a welcome email that includes a link to a landing page for all sort of goodies set at part of the automation sequence after double opt-in. If I select single opt-in, will subscribers still be able to get my welcome email?

Offline Anarchist

  • Status: Arthur C Clarke
  • *****
  • Posts: 2136
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2017, 07:08:05 AM »
I use a hybrid approach that leverages a reader magnet.

Step 1: someone signs up

Step 2: he receives an email that contains a link to the promised reader magnet.

Step 3: if he clicks the link, he's in. If he doesn't click the link, he receives no other emails from me.

This approach streamlines the traditional double opt-in process (sign up ---> confirmation email ---> and then, the email with the link to the reader magnet).


"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison

"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." - Sun Tzu

Online Doglover

  • Status: A A Milne
  • ******
  • Posts: 4183
  • Gender: Female
  • Huntingdon, United Kingdom
  • If you want real love, buy a dog.
    • View Profile
    • Margaret Brazear Author
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2017, 07:34:11 AM »
But beware that MC is VERY strict about the 10% Unsub rule. I have an author friend who got screwed many times because of this and finally moved to Mailerlite. She really tried to comply after getting lists from X-promos. She tried segmented her lists to emails to 100 recipients each, and still when there were more than 10 unsubs, MC penalized her. I don't recall exactly what happened but I think the first segment that got 10 unsubs, she got a warning. Then when another segment got 10+ unsubs, MC eliminated that segment and told her she had to contact those subscribers by another way of emailing (like Yahoo), and ask them to re-sub again.

I'm not a tech expert and I'm actually very baffled on what to do about my own set up right now. I have a welcome email that includes a link to a landing page for all sort of goodies set at part of the automation sequence after double opt-in. If I select single opt-in, will subscribers still be able to get my welcome email?
That's just what's worrying me.


The past is another country; they do things differently there
Margaret Brazear | Website | Blog | Facebook | Readers Group

Online Lynna

  • Status: Lewis Carroll
  • **
  • Posts: 194
  • Human.
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2017, 08:04:42 AM »
All I'm going to say is that when/if I get newsletters I haven't subscribed to, and it seems to happen frequently for a few email addresses I have, I spam report those with great prejudice. :D

I don't want to risk a bunch of spam reports to gain a few more subscribers.

As for capcha? It's not on any of my signup forms and never has been (maybe they changed at some point before I started my list. Who knows?). I just tried a trial sub to one of my lists through my computer to double check that it's still that way and there is definitely no captcha. Just checked my mobile too. No captcha. No problem signing up at all. I just don't see what the problem is with double opt-in. I like it, as a subscriber and a list owner, so my choice is obvious. :)

Online Bob Stewart

  • Status: Jane Austen
  • ***
  • Posts: 461
    • View Profile
    • Street Car Mysteries
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2017, 08:07:15 AM »
I use a hybrid approach that leverages a reader magnet.

Step 1: someone signs up

Step 2: he receives an email that contains a link to the promised reader magnet.

Step 3: if he clicks the link, he's in. If he doesn't click the link, he receives no other emails from me.

This approach streamlines the traditional double opt-in process (sign up ---> confirmation email ---> and then, the email with the link to the reader magnet).

Anarchist,

How does that work functionally? Does the URL for the magnet use a redirect?  Or does just loading the magnet initiates a background task?

Online Lynna

  • Status: Lewis Carroll
  • **
  • Posts: 194
  • Human.
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2017, 08:11:00 AM »
I use a hybrid approach that leverages a reader magnet.

Step 1: someone signs up

Step 2: he receives an email that contains a link to the promised reader magnet.

Step 3: if he clicks the link, he's in. If he doesn't click the link, he receives no other emails from me.

This approach streamlines the traditional double opt-in process (sign up ---> confirmation email ---> and then, the email with the link to the reader magnet).

That's a great way to have what's in essence a double opt-in without it technically being double. I don't give stuff away to get people on my list, but if I did, I'd consider something like this a good alternative to confirmation emails. Because I can accept that if you're sending multiple emails right away (confirmation, links, etc) to new subscribers it can become overwhelming. I got a bunch like that once (confirm, link to get a freebie email, thank you for getting the freebie email here's another if you click this link, blah blah) and it was probably my fastest unsubscribe ever. :-) I am not that target market.

Offline Anarchist

  • Status: Arthur C Clarke
  • *****
  • Posts: 2136
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2017, 08:16:45 AM »
Anarchist,

How does that work functionally? Does the URL for the magnet use a redirect?  Or does just loading the magnet initiates a background task?

The link to the magnet is a redirect. It goes through ConvertKit's servers, auto-confirming the opt-in, before sending the visitor to a download page on my site.
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison

"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." - Sun Tzu

Online Mylius Fox

  • Status: Jane Austen
  • ***
  • Posts: 291
  • Cognitive syntactical wizard.
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2017, 09:27:46 AM »
The link to the magnet is a redirect. It goes through ConvertKit's servers, auto-confirming the opt-in, before sending the visitor to a download page on my site.

Sharp, now all I need is a reader magnet and something to sell-through. :D

Offline Gregg Bell

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
  • Gender: Male
  • Itasca, Illinois
    • View Profile
    • greggbell.net
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2017, 01:31:52 PM »
I have a welcome email that includes a link to a landing page for all sort of goodies set at part of the automation sequence after double opt-in. If I select single opt-in, will subscribers still be able to get my welcome email?

I don't see why the welcome email wouldn't go out with single opt-in. It's just based on people joining your list. It doesn't matter if they join via single opt-in or double opt-in. Like the "trigger" says: 'it will go out (whenever you have it set to) after subscribers join your list.'

"When people agree with me I always feel that I must be wrong." Oscar Wilde
Gregg Bell | Website | Amazon author page | Blog | Twitter | Google+ | Facebook

Online Bill Hiatt

  • Status: Arthur C Clarke
  • *****
  • Posts: 2332
  • Gender: Male
  • California
    • View Profile
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2017, 01:53:10 PM »
I have to agree. All that double opt-in really does is reduce your sign-ups by 30%. Look at the unconfirmed subs; 30%+ never click the confirmation email.
I have to ask--are the people who don't click on the confirmation email likely to be your highest quality subscribers? I'm assuming these aren't all cases in which someone doesn't get the email.

Everything I've signed up for recently has been double opt-in. I understand when mail providers might like single, if, as others have pointed out, that's a way they can make more money.

I've had two experiences with single opt-in environments, and in both cases, they were flooded with bot-generated subscriptions. Both were websites, but is there any reason to think a mailing list would be any different? Obviously, it is sometimes, or some of you wouldn't have had good experiences with it, but I'm not understanding why.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | education website | Facebook author page | Twitter

Offline Nicholas Erik

  • Status: Arthur Conan Doyle
  • ****
  • Posts: 772
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2017, 02:35:17 PM »
I have to ask--are the people who don't click on the confirmation email likely to be your highest quality subscribers? I'm assuming these aren't all cases in which someone doesn't get the email.

Everything I've signed up for recently has been double opt-in. I understand when mail providers might like single, if, as others have pointed out, that's a way they can make more money.

I've had two experiences with single opt-in environments, and in both cases, they were flooded with bot-generated subscriptions. Both were websites, but is there any reason to think a mailing list would be any different? Obviously, it is sometimes, or some of you wouldn't have had good experiences with it, but I'm not understanding why.

I understand these concerns, but I think they are more internet myth than reality.

I don't think this is some great sort of Machiavellian move on Mailchimp's part to generate additional revenue. I think they're making the switch because the web is becoming more and more dominated by mobile, and traditional double opt-in really doesn't work in that environment. Secondly, the increase in cost of running a list with more subscribers is generally nominal in comparison to the value those additional subscribers generate, so I wouldn't be concerned about higher costs anyway (and if that is a concern, switch to Mailerlite, which is very inexpensive).

I've never really bought the "not your best subscribers" argument. First, most of the new people subscribing to your newsletter will be marginally interested or semi-fans - not huge fans. They might've read a book or a story, and want to check out more. The purpose of the list is to help convert these people into your best subscribers/true fans, not necessarily gather them right off the bat. Secondly, people receive 50+ emails a day, on the low end. Your confirmation link can easily just get buried in the inbox maelstrom, even if the person is interested. It's really easy to miss one email. If someone doesn't open one email, that doesn't mean they're not interested; but double opt-in only gives you one shot. If someone doesn't open/click ten emails, they're almost certainly not interested. And I have systems in place to regularly clean my list, so these people don't get emails they don't want, and I don't have to pay for them.

I have zero bots signing up for my list, even on the occasions when I was spending $100+ a day on Facebook. It's a non-issue.

Obviously, everyone can test this and see what works for them.

Nick

Offline Tulonsae

  • Status: Jane Austen
  • ***
  • Posts: 380
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2017, 04:18:20 PM »
I agree that captcha is a problem, especially on mobile.

But I guess I'm old or something. Because I like confirmation emails. It ensures that someone else didn't type in the email address (which I used to see happen a lot back in the good old days). But more importantly, it ensures that I typed my email address correctly. Which is sometimes difficult to do on mobile.

Pretty much every site I sign up to does the confirmation email. Not sure why it's an issue for mailing lists.

Offline Going Incognito

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1684
  • Gender: Female
  • It's always the quiet ones...
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2017, 07:49:31 PM »
I've had two experiences with single opt-in environments, and in both cases, they were flooded with bot-generated subscriptions.


I have zero bots signing up for my list, even on the occasions when I was spending $100+ a day on Facebook. It's a non-issue.


How can you tell if an email on your list is a bot email?

Offline Nicholas Erik

  • Status: Arthur Conan Doyle
  • ****
  • Posts: 772
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2017, 08:16:07 PM »
How can you tell if an email on your list is a bot email?

Basically the same way you can tell if someone used a throwaway address to sign-up for your list. For a throwaway email, it might be like bluejaysredsoxyankees26666 - e.g. something that a person probably isn't using for their main email. For a non-real user, it'll be some weird string of numbers/letters or bizarre domain extension, based out of certain areas of the world that aren't heavily English speaking and wouldn't be interested in your books. Or you'd get a weird spike in sign-ups when you're not running a corresponding promotion or ad campaign. A massive spike in spam reports would be another one, if someone else was subscribing legitimate emails to your list without permission for some reason.

Naturally, you don't know 100% for sure. To be clear, when I say "I have zero bots signing up for my list," I don't know that there are literally zero. I mean that I have had zero problems with bots when using single opt-in, even when gathering cold subscribers who have never heard my name before. Unlike, say, the contact form on my website, which has no CAPTCHA and thus results in 3 - 5 spam emails a day sent to me,  there's no real incentive to sign-up a massive number of fake subs to someone else's account. I guess a bot could subscribe to get your email address to spam you. Otherwise, it just seems kind of pointless.

Nick

Offline Going Incognito

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1684
  • Gender: Female
  • It's always the quiet ones...
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2017, 08:39:09 PM »
Ah, gotcha. Thanks.

Offline Patty Jansen

  • Status: Isaac Asimov
  • ********
  • Posts: 11618
  • Gender: Female
  • Sydney, Australia
  • Destroyer of Science Fiction
    • View Profile
    • Patty Jansen Author of SF and fantasy
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2017, 09:32:02 PM »
Basically the same way you can tell if someone used a throwaway address to sign-up for your list. For a throwaway email, it might be like bluejaysredsoxyankees26666 - e.g. something that a person probably isn't using for their main email. For a non-real user, it'll be some weird string of numbers/letters or bizarre domain extension, based out of certain areas of the world that aren't heavily English speaking and wouldn't be interested in your books. Or you'd get a weird spike in sign-ups when you're not running a corresponding promotion or ad campaign. A massive spike in spam reports would be another one, if someone else was subscribing legitimate emails to your list without permission for some reason.

Naturally, you don't know 100% for sure. To be clear, when I say "I have zero bots signing up for my list," I don't know that there are literally zero. I mean that I have had zero problems with bots when using single opt-in, even when gathering cold subscribers who have never heard my name before. Unlike, say, the contact form on my website, which has no CAPTCHA and thus results in 3 - 5 spam emails a day sent to me,  there's no real incentive to sign-up a massive number of fake subs to someone else's account. I guess a bot could subscribe to get your email address to spam you. Otherwise, it just seems kind of pointless.

Nick

I've learned (through doing stupid things--like assuming and making embarrassingly wrong decisions), that assuming that an address on your list is or isn't legit based on the fact that "it looks weird" is always going to bite you in the butt. People used weirdalias@gmail.com ALL THE TIME. For the same reason people come here with anonymous user handles.

Someone who uses a disposable email is not a bot signup.

I've seen bot signups in KingSumo giveaways. The way you can tell is that you suddenly, in the space of a few hours, get thousand entries and the email addresses all have exactly the same format.

In your author list? You really can't tell.

Offline Puddleduck

  • Status: Jane Austen
  • ***
  • Posts: 458
    • View Profile
Re: Mailchimp switching all signup forms to single opt-in
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2017, 07:44:59 AM »
I've learned (through doing stupid things--like assuming and making embarrassingly wrong decisions), that assuming that an address on your list is or isn't legit based on the fact that "it looks weird" is always going to bite you in the butt. People used weirdalias@gmail.com ALL THE TIME. For the same reason people come here with anonymous user handles.

I once asked a guy for his email address, and he gave me this big sigh. He had a really common name, so he got a little too creative when trying to come up with a unique email address, and it ended up looking like a string of nonsense, but once he explained it, I could see the reason behind it. It's like with some of those personalized license plates. Just because it looks like gibberish doesn't necessarily mean it is.