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Stone and Silt
by Harvey Chute

$2.99
Kindle Edition published 2013-08-14
Bestseller ranking: 713665

Product Description
Big Al's Books & Pals 2014 Readers' Choice Awards: Young Adult Nominee

A ruthless murder and a stolen shipment of gold.

At school, sixteen-year-old Nikaia Wales endures the taunts of bullies who call her a “half-breed.” At home, she worries about how her family will react if she reveals her growing feelings for the quiet boy next door.

Those are soon the least of her troubles. Nikaia discovers a hidden cache of gold, and when police find a corpse nearby, her father becomes a suspect. Worse, Elias Doyle is circling, hungry to avenge his brother’s death.

Nikaia desperately searches for clues to save her father. In her quest to find the killer, she learns about the power of family, friendship, and young love....

Author Topic: do your homework  (Read 6542 times)  

Offline Tilly

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2017, 07:37:21 PM »
Also, just to be absolutely clear, the reason we have only 7 disputes out of the last 2,700 promotion packages sold is very simple...

It's simple because you are argumentative and combative to deal with and then only offer authors store credit. Some authors walk away rather than butt heads with you, that doesn't equal your service being any good. Then if authors dare say anything on the kboards they are sent long and ranty pms from you saying that obviously the book is at fault. I tried your service 2 years ago and never had a single sale attributable to your service. In fact rank got worse. You told me it was because of my book and that it had no appeal to readers and refused a refund. A few months later I had a Bookbub and sold thousands of copies.  ::)

As we keep saying, authors do your research. Look at how the promoter presents themselves on forums.

Offline telracs

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2017, 07:50:05 PM »
"A) We have 5.1 million readers and are adding 1 million+ readers every year"


some of us readers are interested as to where you got your readers, as there doesn't seem to be any place for us to sign up to readers....

« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 07:55:05 PM by telracs »

Offline Tilly

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2017, 08:26:45 PM »
"A) We have 5.1 million readers and are adding 1 million+ readers every year"

Which is larger than Bookbub. Based on categories, the biggest for Bookbub is Crime which has 3.75m subscribers (and I would assume readers sign up to multiple categories, I do).

And yet you cannot sign up to BooksButterfly as a reader nor is there any newsletter.

When your book is supposedly promoted to over 5 million readers and doesn't result in a single sale (based on BooksButterfly tracking rank, which got worse in my case) nor can you find any ad footprint to show what (if anything) was done, it must all be the book's fault.

Offline Mylius Fox

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2017, 08:33:43 PM »
some of us readers are interested as to where you got your readers...

Kenya, according to a thread here where someone checked website traffic origin (54%).

Offline Maalik

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Re: Buyer Beware
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2017, 09:33:30 PM »
Yeah, I'm in agreement with those who think the whole "hush-hush" approach to discussing this is less than helpful. Because no, everyone does not know already. There are newbies coming in all the time. Saying "don't use this secret service we're not going to name" is just frustrating. I've heard the name Rebecca Hamilton, but just noting that her and her services are questionable doesn't necessarily do enough to warn people if no one knows what names she provides those services under. What are the names of the promotion services/sites that "most people" already know not to use?

I understand what you're saying but the reason some of us didn't want to name and shame the guilty party is because when you do your post gets edited by the mods and/or the thread gets locked. We've been down this road before, the info is out there.



Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 10:13:50 PM by Becca Mills »

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Re: Buyer Beware
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2017, 10:10:32 PM »
Pretty obvious it's Rebecca Hamilton's service the OP was referring to. We're beating a dead horse here anyway, it was a known scam, and has been discussed endlessly. Books Butterfly is another service that is a scam, a dozen threads about them too, and my last three posts that mention it have been edited.

That's because we don't name-call, here. See how your one tossed-in sentence about Books Butterfly has channeled this thread into an argument over that service, which if it progresses much further will probably lead to a lock? That's the kind of thing name-calling tends to generate -- arguments that become heated, breach forum decorum, and get shut down. So yeah, further name-calling will certainly be removed.

People who have actually used Books Butterfly themselves are free to share their own experiences, good or bad, in a specific, fact-based way. ireaderreview is free to respond. People can ask ireaderreview tough questions about how Books Butterfly works. He can answer those questions. Others can read the exchanges between ireaderreview and his customers and come to their own decision on whether Books Butterfly is a service they want to use. This can take place very effectively with a complete absence of name-calling or other breaches of forum decorum.

The same is true for GenreCrave/OTOH Books/Book Rebel (not sure what exactly fits in that cluster) or any other site. Concrete, specific feedback about your own personal experiences with any promoter is not just okay but encouraged. Just leave out the name-calling and stick to the facts of what happened to you, personally.

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2017, 11:46:20 PM »
I'm shocked at bookbutterflys defense here.

If such a small percentage of authors have a problem getting results why not simply refund them? I've seen them defend (after the fact) that the book is not appealing, bad cover, etc. So why did they take up the ad if it was so obvious it wouldn't work? Some real head scratchers.

Why not just refund this tiny number of people and give yourself a much better name? It suggests that the number is actually much higher than 8%.

I, for one will never use this service. Not just because I find their claim of readers ridiculous but the way they handle themselves in a public forum is unprofessional.
Blood Cauldron (DoH book 3) going to the editor now: 99%

Havenglade Mysteries (Book 1): 45%
H.C. Harrington

Offline Doglover

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2017, 01:17:13 AM »
It's all very well to say one should research the promotion site before using it, but newbies don't know that and they don't know where to look. Sometimes, the word 'guarantee' can capture them and they don't know enough to stop and wonder how anyone can guarantee anything. That is the case with every scam out there, not just the ones that promote books. Would the Nigerian prince still be trying to pass his millions through our bank accounts if nobody fell for it? Of course not.

As to 'everyone knows' about Rebecca Hamilton, until Christina Garner and her law suit, I had no idea about her. This sort of 'Serves you right'  comment is hardly helpful, especially from people who insist they never had to promote anything.

I don't use promotion sites; the only one I have ever used was Bookscream who are either free or $5 so fairly certain there is no scam there. I prefer to use fb and AMS advertising. I wouldn't know which were dodgy and which were not, but I have been around long enough to find out.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 02:47:14 AM by Doglover »


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Offline C. Gold

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2017, 02:29:10 AM »
I didn't know what supposedly 'everyone' knew about, so thanks for clearing that up.

As a newb, I look at the forum posts of people who listed their promotions and estimated results and use that to decide on my own promotions. I think that's the safest way all around to avoid getting involved with questionable services. So huge thanks to everyone doing that.

Offline David C

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2017, 02:46:58 AM »
I didn't know what supposedly 'everyone' knew about, so thanks for clearing that up.

As a newb, I look at the forum posts of people who listed their promotions and estimated results and use that to decide on my own promotions. I think that's the safest way all around to avoid getting involved with questionable services. So huge thanks to everyone doing that.

I second the above.

Can't the news of dodgy dealers be spread via kboards private messages? That doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere in the threads.

Offline Doglover

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2017, 02:48:33 AM »
I second the above.

Can't the news of dodgy dealers be spread via kboards private messages? That doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere in the threads.
That wouldn't help people trying to discover a fraud, would it? I'm all for outing them; anyone could fall foul of them so they need to be named.


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Offline Doglover

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2017, 02:53:38 AM »
I'm shocked at bookbutterflys defense here.

If such a small percentage of authors have a problem getting results why not simply refund them? I've seen them defend (after the fact) that the book is not appealing, bad cover, etc. So why did they take up the ad if it was so obvious it wouldn't work? Some real head scratchers.

Why not just refund this tiny number of people and give yourself a much better name? It suggests that the number is actually much higher than 8%.

I, for one will never use this service. Not just because I find their claim of readers ridiculous but the way they handle themselves in a public forum is unprofessional.
They are not the only service who have come to this board stating that if the author got bad results it must be their cover, or some other rubbish. The fact is the whole thing is computer driven and those programs wouldn't know what a good cover is. I've had it myself when someone asked about a service and I posted my experience.

I always think that if they are that paranoid to be jumping up and defending their actions, the response speaks for itself.


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Offline ireaderreview

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2017, 02:54:59 AM »
1) For Tilly

you write: It's simple because you are argumentative and combative to deal with and then only offer authors store credit.

we're very happy to arrive at a solution if you approach us in a calm manner and provide us screenshots and follow the terms

If you start off with - you're a scam,

then we point you to terms of service and then terms of service have to be followed to a letter

***

You cannot write - my book missed that means you are a scam
And then expect us to be cordial to you

Please email us your email/screenshots at booksbutterfly88@outlook.com and we are happy to resolve the issue. Please note that terms will still be followed i.e. terms of service

*****************

2) Telracs

The Books Butterfly Site is a site FOR AUTHORS to buy promotion packages
why would a site built FOR AUTHORS TO ORDER PROMOTION PACKAGES have an email sign up link for readers?

this is a classic case of lazy attacks. There is Proof Page (https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/proof-4-million-readers/) and How It Works page (https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/how-it-works/#step3) which lists apps and blogs and a few of the twitter accounts and it has screenshots. If you took even half a minute to look around the website you could find links to 100+ of our apps, blogs, etc. Those are built for readers and they have sign up links

Saying 'there is no email sign up link for readers' on a site that is built FOR AUTHORS to order promotion sites is like complaining that Google Adwords page doesn't have search engine for web searchers or that Amazon Ads for Authors page and Amazon dashboard page doesn't have book lists for readers

***************

3) Tilly

This is again laziness - And yet you cannot sign up to BooksButterfly as a reader nor is there any newsletter.

All the blogs and sites are listed. Each of the blogs FOR READERS (if you can be bothered to actually click through to it) has email sign up links and links to other blogs. Those are the places readers visit and sign up links are there. It makes no sense to put up sign up links FOR READERS on a site that is 100% visited by AUTHORS buying promotion packages

* As for 'no ad footprint'. Why don't you share what book it was, so I can list for everyone where it was promoted. And also perhaps what price the book was at when being promoted and genre. You're hiding behind an anonymous account and making a lot of extreme claims that are easily proven false (i.e. no sign up link for readers)

*******************************

4) Mylius Fox

Thank you for demonstrating how wrong a few KBoards authors are and the shallowness of the attacks

You write: Kenya, according to a thread here where someone checked website traffic origin (54%

Again, check our site

our figures are

3 Million+ on Apps
1.8 Million+ on Twitter
314,000 email lists
118,000 on blogs

So you're taking the smallest channel (blogs) and from that you are taking one blog and as that is often visited by the Blogging Team (some of whom are in Kenya) writing the posts and editing, and because Alexa is not smart enough to recognize that, you are trying to extrapolate that to the entire set of our readers???

Our traffic is
70% US
10% UK
5% Canada (higher for Kobo)
5% Australia and New Zealand
and 127 other countries which we reach every day

There are screenshots of App Downloads for Kindle Fire, Apple, Android, Nook, on the Proof Page

Yet a few KBoards authors want to use an unscientific measure like Alexa for one blog out of 100+ blogs and make assumptions based on that

Most of the Apps and lists are US centric. People from other countries started signing up and that's why we have 157+ countries and US is now 70% and not 100%

**************

4) Becca, thank you

What Becca wrote: People who have actually used Books Butterfly themselves are free to share their own experiences, good or bad, in a specific, fact-based way.

So we have two people who can't be bothered to actually read the website and see the How it Works page which lists 50+ blogs (out of 100+ blogs) or the Proof page which lists 20+ apps (out of 200+ apps) and are trying to make false claims i.e.

A) The order site FOR AUTHORS does not have a sign up link for readers ergo - it must mean there is no way readers can sign up

Readers visit the pages which list book offers and deals. Not the page to buy promotion packages

B) One blog's traffic is mistattributed by Alexa because a few of our bloggers are in Kenya, so they think that means Kenya is 54% of our traffic

Our readers are 70% US

Notice how this line of attack ignores the 3 million app readers and the 1.8 million Twitter readers and goes after blogs (which are just 118,000 or so readers) and within the blogs goes after 1 blog out of 100

So you pretend thes screenshot showing 500,000+ app downloads for ONE Kindle Fire App doesn't exist
You ignore the screenshots showing 314,000 email subscribers
You ignore the screenshots showing hundreds of thousands of Apple App downloads

And you search through all our blogs on Alexa (an imprecise tool) and find one blog that shows Kenya traffic and try to use that to attack. So strange. It's a pathetic display of bad intentions. If you have to single out one single blog out of 100 blogs, and attack the smallest marketing channel (blogs at just 118,000 compared to Apps at 3 million and Twitter at 1.8 million), that's really clutching at straws

********************

C) Herefortheride

You are writing:
Quote
If such a small percentage of authors have a problem getting results why not simply refund them? I've seen them defend (after the fact) that the book is not appealing, bad cover, etc. So why did they take up the ad if it was so obvious it wouldn't work? Some real head scratchers.

Why not just refund this tiny number of people and give yourself a much better name? It suggests that the number is actually much higher than 8%.

A1) Only 8% of books miss. It's impractical and expensive to spend 30 to 60 minutes analyzing each book. We do a quick check and then if it seems we'll be able to get it results we run it. 8% of the time we are wrong

A2) No, the number is not higher than 8%. You are making an assumption - without any facts. ASSUMPTION. We have the actual figures for dispute rate and we handle the actual prorated refund in store credit cases so we know exactly what the percentages are. You're trying to use some sort of circular logic - just refund them their money if it's just 8%

You're saying

Let these people take advantage of you,, so that we give ourselves a 'better name'. that's not what happens

If you have a terms of service and you just let people set their own terms of service AFTER the promotion has happened they then think of you as suckers
And they return to again take advantage of you

No good deed goes unpunished, when working with some people. And these 1% or 2% of indie authors are proof of that

My book doesn't do well
That must mean - promotion site is a scam
either you refund or I spend the rest of my life doing defamation against you on the Internet

That much energy spent on improving your books would turn you into half a Stephen King

***

I'll give 2 examples

1) We used to run last minute requests before payment. Then one day TWELVE authors asked for slots last minute. We were pretty happy to see so many last minute submissions all on one day, until later we realized that none of them paid. So - now we had to take away the benefit of last minute submissions for authors who had full intention of paying because this set of 12 authors abused the rule

2) Many of the authors who were slating us on KBoards in 2014 and 2015 are now trying to get their book approved for promotion. So they were very happy to claim - any site that guarantees results must be a scam. They thought we are a small site and they can take out their frustrations in life by attacking us. Now that they see we have 5.1 million readers suddenly they are very polite and apologizing for straight out claiming 'any site that must guarantee results is a scam'. They want us to forget their attempts to destroy us (all because they didn't like that we guaranteed results) and now want us to help promote their books???

****
You must be an idealist if you think - We should just go back on terms we agreed to and give them back refund.
Such people aren't happy with taking advantage of you once. They keep coming back. And they also spread the word to other people with similar mindsets

So we would replace

Our loyal regular customers
AND reasonable customers

with

Authors who just want to screw us over - every time with a new excuse for why they should get refund

Reality is that a small fraction of people will always find a way to finnagle a refund

We have problems with 1% to 2% of authors

That's actually super as it means 98% of authors are honest and reasonable people

Actually, these 1% to 2% of authors might very well be honest. They just might not be able to get over the fact that their book didn't perform. Because what's easier to digest

Option A: My book isn't good enough

Option B: My book isn't a good fit for this promotion site

Option C: My book is perfect and this promotion site is a scam

We are just thankful that only 1% to 2% of authors are going down route C

*********************


What Becca wrote: People who have actually used Books Butterfly themselves are free to share their own experiences, good or bad, in a specific, fact-based way.

I don't see any sharing of any actual facts. You've made some quite ridiculous claims i.e.

A) The order site for authors has no sign up link for readers

So you did research on the order site and found no sign up link for readers?? But you missed the Proof page with screenshots and links to apps and you missed the How it Works page with links to blogs?? That's very interesting. It's not like we have ONE blog and ONE App. We have 100+ blogs and 200+ Apps. So you chose not to vist ANY of those and are instead complaining about 'no link for readers on an order site for Authors'???

B) for our smallest channel (blogs - which at 118,000 is 2% of our total readers), one blog out of 100 has lot of traffic from Kenya. So it must mean all our people are in Kenya. That's just Alexa making a mistake because some of our blogging team is in Kenya and they visit regularly to do posts. 3 million apps are on

Kindle Fire
iPhone
iPad

There is no logical way you can claim that anything more than a small fraction of those 3 million readers are in Kenya
Kenya is less than 2% of our readership

C) That we should be suckers and just refund anyone who asks for a refund. The terms of service are to ensure that it's WIN WIN. If your book is in the 8% that underperforms, we go out of our way to run it again for you at no charge. That is more than reasonable. That is why there are only 7 disputes out of last 2,700 promotion packages sold. 98% of authors are very reasonable. Even for authors whose books miss, vast majority are reasonable

If there is 1% or 2% that just want us to keep running their books for no money, then catering to them would mean we lose our real customers and our loyal customers and we also take on the headache of

helping someone promote their book
they return and claim some other factor caused the results
they return and want to promote again + again not pay

The people who make all these claims that 'something else caused the sales/downloads' want to keep returning. That is why in exceptional cases we do cash refund with condition that they never submit again

*******************
A few KBoards authors have been attacking us since the month we started selling promotion packages (July 2014). Well, this small loud minority sure as heck didn't succeed in 2014, and now that we have 5.1 million readers and a dispute rate of less than 0.5% and are adding 1 million+ readers every year, now it just becomes a mockery - all their pathetic attempts like - readers can't sign up, readers are all in Kenya

Is that really the best that this set of authors can do? We are dealing with things like hacking attacks from Russia funded by people solely because we are helping indie authors. You'd think that indie authors would support promotion sites, as they don't have very many other places that are willing to help them.

Here is a thread from 2014 - https://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=194577.0

And let's see authors who were all writing things claiming we are a scam without knowing anything about us. These are 'philosophical differences' but somehow authors feel they can claim we're a scam without any proof whatsoever

Katrina - I'm sorry, but I do not trust any site that guarantees x amount of downloads. To guarantee them they'd have to be gaming the system, in my opinion.
Patty - ZOMG, that website is carbon copy of the website for the Book Service That Shall Not Be Named. Including the naming of the categories.
Julie - ANY site that guarantees X number of downloads is a scam. Period. End of story. And I don't care WHO claims otherwise. The only way you can make that guarantee is if you control the downloads. You cannot make a guarantee on things you do not control.

That's just one example. Yeah, keep attacking us. All that's happened since then is we've added around 4 million readers while this small set of authors stays focused on 'OMG my book didn't sell well so now I want to change the terms of service and take out my frustration by claiming they are a scam'

Life is short. None of us should have time for all this nonsense. Perhaps your book didn't do well. It happens. Take the store credit, run it again, get the sales, move on. All this anger at the reality that your book didn't connect with our readers. What's the point?

We continue to help 300 to 400 authors every single day to reach 5.1 million readers, including 100+ sponsor indie authors every day (promotion pacakges are multi day, so it's not 100 new promotions each day) and 100+ curated indie authors every day

If you're in the 8% of promotions that miss, be like the vast majority of those authors whose books missed, and take the store credit, get the remaining sales, and move on with life

Spending all this time and energy trying to prove your book is amazing and it's the promotion sites' fault. There's nothing positive that can come out of it

It just didn't connect. We give simple feedback on how to improve results - if you're fixated on proving your book is perfect, then you will misinterpret it as us blaming your book. Some books miss. Take the store credit and run it again, or run some other book

It's not some great huge sacrifice to run the book again for no charge

*************************
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 03:15:43 AM by ireaderreview »

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Offline David C

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2017, 02:58:08 AM »
That wouldn't help people trying to discover a fraud, would it? I'm all for outing them; anyone could fall foul of them so they need to be named.

I agree. I am thinking more of those who do not wish to name publicly. They could send the company names to individuals who ask for them.

Offline ireaderreview

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2017, 03:00:56 AM »
They are not the only service who have come to this board stating that if the author got bad results it must be their cover, or some other rubbish. The fact is the whole thing is computer driven and those programs wouldn't know what a good cover is. I've had it myself when someone asked about a service and I posted my experience.

I always think that if they are that paranoid to be jumping up and defending their actions, the response speaks for itself.


Doglover, you write:
I always think that if they are that paranoid to be jumping up and defending their actions, the response speaks for itself.

**************************

So according to you, our options are

- Say nothing. Then you'll say - they aren't responding so they must be guilty

- Respond. Then you claim we are paranoid

***********************

Nope. you can't just go around writing lies about people and then saying - oh don't respond because responding means you are paranoid etc. etc.

*******************************

Get 50 to 100 Sales for Your $1 Book! Get 2,000 to 5,000+ Downloads for your Free Run Books! Get 200 to 400+ Sales for Your $1 Box Set!

Books Butterfly | Free Book Promotion | Paid Book Promotion

Applies to Following Genres: Mysteries, Thrillers, Suspense, Romance, Christian, Non-Fiction, How To, Cookbooks, SciFi Thrillers, Memoirs, Romantic Erotica, Steamy Romance.
Please Note: We also promote in other genres.


Offline Doglover

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2017, 03:18:05 AM »

Doglover, you write:
I always think that if they are that paranoid to be jumping up and defending their actions, the response speaks for itself.

**************************

So according to you, our options are

- Say nothing. Then you'll say - they aren't responding so they must be guilty

- Respond. Then you claim we are paranoid

***********************

Nope. you can't just go around writing lies about people and then saying - oh don't respond because responding means you are paranoid etc. etc.

*******************************

Every author is advised most strongly never to respond to a review because it is unprofessional. I see no difference with your responses. Would we see anyone from Bookbub or ENT coming here and stamping their feet because we actually named something we didn't like? Of course not.

If someone asks you a direct question, then obviously reply, but don't get all huffy because people are stating their experiences and those of others.


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Offline TwistedTales

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2017, 03:21:15 AM »
Im trying to stay out of this because Im busy, however in the interests of balanced feedback Ill waste a little time. Weve used Books Butterfly twice in three years.

In 2015, they did not achieve the numbers promised and provided a cash refund (they had a different policy back then). To be fair, the book we were promoting was the first wed written and it needed work. We provided screenshots of the sale period, Books Butterfly agreed the results missed the mark, and they provided a pro rata refund that was fair.

In 2016, we did no discounting so we didnt use any discount promotions sites, which is why we didnt use Books Butterfly that year.

In 2017, we used them again in January for a specific campaign. We ran a number of promotional tactics and sold 1,500 copies of one book. It was difficult to tell how many of those sales could be credited to Books Butterfly, but we detected an uptick of sales during their window. We were satisfied they sold sufficient books for the price.

***

I have zero vested interest in Books Butterfly, they are simply one of the suppliers on a list weve tested and are prepared to use again. We havent had a bad experience with them, nor do we believe theyre a scam. If they were then they wouldnt have failed in 2015 and given us a refund.

However, I would counsel @ireaderreview that the longwinded posts are doing the company a disservice. Although I understand the company feels the need to defend itself, just be aware other people like us are reading the posts. They make the company appear unfriendly and difficult to deal with and, even though we dont have a negative view of the company, we will hesitate to use it again.

The views of a few people on kboards dont reflect everyone or even a majority, but constantly defending the company makes you look bad to people reading the forum.

Offline brkingsolver

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2017, 03:28:35 AM »
People who have actually used Books Butterfly themselves are free to share their own experiences, good or bad, in a specific, fact-based way. ireaderreview is free to respond. People can ask ireaderreview tough questions about how Books Butterfly works. He can answer those questions. Others can read the exchanges between ireaderreview and his customers and come to their own decision on whether Books Butterfly is a service they want to use. This can take place very effectively with a complete absence of name-calling or other breaches of forum decorum.

I'll simply say that for my books, I tried Books Butterfly twice and found the results to be almost unnoticeable, which was disappointing due to the price. As others have noted, when I asked about the results, I was insulted and told my book was trash (not exactly in those words, but close enough). No biggie. I just crossed them off the list of services I'll use.

It's not the only service that doesn't deliver, and I only tried them because others reported good results. As in most things, YMMV.

And I would appreciate if the service didn't respond. Every time he does, it only makes me hate him more.


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Offline ireaderreview

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #68 on: November 20, 2017, 03:50:20 AM »
Im trying to stay out of this because Im busy, however in the interests of balanced feedback Ill waste a little time. Weve used Books Butterfly twice in three years.

In 2015, they did not achieve the numbers promised and provided a cash refund (they had a different policy back then). To be fair, the book we were promoting was the first wed written and it needed work. We provided screenshots of the sale period, Books Butterfly agreed the results missed the mark, and they provided a pro rata refund that was fair.

In 2016, we did no discounting so we didnt use any discount promotions sites, which is why we didnt use Books Butterfly that year.

In 2017, we used them again in January for a specific campaign. We ran a number of promotional tactics and sold 1,500 copies of one book. It was difficult to tell how many of those sales could be credited to Books Butterfly, but we detected an uptick of sales during their window. We were satisfied they sold sufficient books for the price.

***

I have zero vested interest in Books Butterfly, they are simply one of the suppliers on a list weve tested and are prepared to use again. We havent had a bad experience with them, nor do we believe theyre a scam. If they were then they wouldnt have failed in 2015 and given us a refund.

However, I would counsel @ireaderreview that the longwinded posts are doing the company a disservice. Although I understand the company feels the need to defend itself, just be aware other people like us are reading the posts. They make the company appear unfriendly and difficult to deal with and, even though we dont have a negative view of the company, we will hesitate to use it again.

The views of a few people on kboards dont reflect everyone or even a majority, but constantly defending the company makes you look bad to people reading the forum.


thank you for your response

For your advice

Quote
However, I would counsel @ireaderreview that the longwinded posts are doing the company a disservice. Although I understand the company feels the need to defend itself, just be aware other people like us are reading the posts. They make the company appear unfriendly and difficult to deal with and, even though we don�t have a negative view of the company, we will hesitate to use it again.

The views of a few people on kboards don�t reflect everyone or even a majority, but constantly defending the company makes you look bad to people reading the forum.


I do respect your advice. I just wanted to make something clear

We will not take attacks based on lies. My team works super hard. There are people in Canada waking up at 2 am/3 am and people in Kenya and Ukraine not sleeping till 3/4 am EVERY DAY. To make sure we can get 300 to 400 good authors (including 200+ indie authors) to our readers every single day. We haven't missed a post in 7+ years

Many people work 10 to 14 hours a day

We are very focused on connecting readers with authors and continuing forward the biggest revolution in books since Gutenberg

I will not stand for my team being badmouthed and I will not stand for anyone to get in the way of a once in a lifetime opportunity all of us have in front of us - the biggest revolution in book since Gutenberg

It that makes the team look bad to some people, so be it.

I really don't understand the logic of 'let people claim you are a scam' and that looks better than responding

******************
92% of $0.99 book promotions at $0.99 and $0 hit the target
Only 8% of books miss

If your book misses, you get store credit

We  are only 'difficult to deal with' if you try to blame us for your book underperforming and claim we are a scam. That's 1% or 2% of authors. If you're in that 1% or 2% then great - nothing would make us happier than you walking away forever

***

By the Grace of God we sell out in every genre, at every price point. We have enough regular customers and we are growing so fast that we will never run out of customers

If you think we should let people write lies about us, then by all means don't work with us. Please look at that thread posted above. Every single time KBoards authors have offered us advice they claimed 'was in our best interest' it always lowered sales. So if you have an issue with me defending my team which works their socks off to get authors results and to connect readers with authors, then best of luck and don't work with us. The revolution in books isn't going to happen via nice polite people who worry a lot about what other people think and appearances. All the nice guys on the promotion site side are dead or dying. It's only the obstinate people who refuse the social conventions that say 'don't unsettle things and let the revolution be killed because you wouldn't want polite soceity to think poorly of you, would you Old Chap' who have enough courage to keep fighting
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 06:29:18 AM by Betsy the Quilter »

Get 50 to 100 Sales for Your $1 Book! Get 2,000 to 5,000+ Downloads for your Free Run Books! Get 200 to 400+ Sales for Your $1 Box Set!

Books Butterfly | Free Book Promotion | Paid Book Promotion

Applies to Following Genres: Mysteries, Thrillers, Suspense, Romance, Christian, Non-Fiction, How To, Cookbooks, SciFi Thrillers, Memoirs, Romantic Erotica, Steamy Romance.
Please Note: We also promote in other genres.


Offline TobiasRoote

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2017, 03:51:51 AM »
Every author is advised most strongly never to respond to a review because it is unprofessional. I see no difference with your responses.

I think this is the only valid point you should take from this thread. Whilst this is OP is about someone else you're making it about you. Not good PR.


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Offline ireaderreview

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2017, 03:56:07 AM »
Again, thanks for the advice

This: I think this is the only valid point you should take from this thread. Whilst this is OP is about someone else you're making it about you. Not good PR.


We disagree with 'don't respond to reviews'. And this isn't a review (what Maalik wrote) as without any proof or facts or evidence Maalik is claiming we are a scam
And Maalik is also going on every thread (including a thread about our Review Service) and claiming similar things, again without any evidence

*******************
Also people are writing things without sharing any sales graphs or facts.

Get 50 to 100 Sales for Your $1 Book! Get 2,000 to 5,000+ Downloads for your Free Run Books! Get 200 to 400+ Sales for Your $1 Box Set!

Books Butterfly | Free Book Promotion | Paid Book Promotion

Applies to Following Genres: Mysteries, Thrillers, Suspense, Romance, Christian, Non-Fiction, How To, Cookbooks, SciFi Thrillers, Memoirs, Romantic Erotica, Steamy Romance.
Please Note: We also promote in other genres.


Online Herefortheride

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2017, 04:06:14 AM »
Again, thanks for the advice

This: I think this is the only valid point you should take from this thread. Whilst this is OP is about someone else you're making it about you. Not good PR.


We disagree with 'don't respond to reviews'. And this isn't a review (what Maalik wrote) as without any proof or facts or evidence Maalik is claiming we are a scam
And Maalik is also going on every thread (including a thread about our Review Service) and claiming similar things, again without any evidence

*******************
Also people are writing things without sharing any sales graphs or facts.

And your arrogance is costly you a great deal. You think you dont make mistakes, you think its all on the authors, what a twisted world you live in.

If running your mouth and hurting the pockets of all the hard working employees of your service is your goal, mission accomplished!
Blood Cauldron (DoH book 3) going to the editor now: 99%

Havenglade Mysteries (Book 1): 45%
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Offline C. Gold

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #72 on: November 20, 2017, 04:17:49 AM »
I sense a lock down in this thread's near future. The 8 ball says it's very likely.

Offline she-la-ti-da

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #73 on: November 20, 2017, 04:40:52 AM »
IBTL

I agree that we should be talking about good and bad results from promo services (or any service for indies, really). We can't just accuse people of running scams without providing evidence, but we can make connections between what was promised and what was achieved, or not, as the case may be. Services that made wild claims, guarantees or refuse to treat customers with respect should be outed.

And ireader guy? These were reviews of your service. Deal with it. Preferably professionally, but I think that's too much to ask at this point.

I don't accept the "newbie" defense, by the way. There's a box on every web browser for doing searches. If you put the name of the service you're considering using into that box and hit enter, you will get all sorts of results. Take the time to read a bunch of them (not the ones going to the service's site), and if still unsure, ask. There are numerous threads here about what others are using, what they think about them, to the point of it almost being too much information.

To the OP:  I'm sorry you had a bad experience. It was good of you to post about it, so the topic stays fresh. And you can contact David through the member's list (I believe it's his first and last name), or through his site, which is his name (a web search should find it easily enough, I don't know the exact name off-hand).

As someone else noted, we don't really know how some authors are getting tagged by Amazon and being rank-stripped. We can only go by the evidence we can find, and make assumptions. I suspect it's bots being set up to catch the real scammers, which as usual are performing more as a MOABs rather than surgical strikes. Perhaps the bots will learn, and this will stop. Don't hold your breath.
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Offline MyraScott

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Re: do your homework
« Reply #74 on: November 20, 2017, 04:52:27 AM »
After reading this thread, despite what the authors have said or not said, there's no way I'd use a book promotion service where the owner is clearly hostile to his customers and insults their books.

Booksbutterfly, you are proving their claims correct.  You may want to stop before you do more damage.