Author Topic: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video  (Read 23364 times)  

Offline Crystal_

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #175 on: January 04, 2018, 04:30:31 PM »
I'm a romance author. I listen to David. I know exactly who he's talking about, and to me, that group does not "write" romance. They are not in the same business as I am. They're in the business of putting up ghostwritten books that often cross my personal lines on issues of consent, cross-marketing them with each other, and, let's say, pushing the rules to the limit, if not skirting them.

I don't have any problem with them being called out, because getting rid of them would get rid of a taint on my genre.

Meanwhile I'll go along and write my stuff and put it out there. I can't do anything about what Amazon or any other vendor does. I have expressed my dissatisfaction to KDP multiple times, and that's about what I can do. I hope someday they'll limit KU books to one title. Period. Will they? No idea. But I'm glad that people like David and Phoenix are on this, willing to spend their time and energy pushing for reform.

(And I too have had a very clear message from the Content people at KDP that book stuffing is not allowed. And yep, a law that isn't enforced or isn't enforced strictly enough is still a law. For Heaven's sake. Of course it is.)

Like I said, I don't have a problem with it, but I've seen many, many romance authors write off David's complaints because of the language he uses. He could make it clearer he's talking about that certain group of authors who have a name for themselves, vs. bad boy romance authors as a whole. (I don't know if the mods will allow him to mention that name or not).

As far as I can tell, undifferentiated content only refers to content that is the same but not reordered. So you can't do A, B, C, D then D, C, B, A, but you can do A, B, C then A, B, D, then A, B, C, D, etc.

As I said before, it would be very easy for Amazon to make this clear, but they continue to not do so.

I have actually not seen any examples of reps saying stuffing is not allowed, unless it was about undifferentiated content, which needs to be exactly the same content in a different order. I asked a rep about book stuffing (with the example of "could I put Book A behind my new release") and the rep said that stuffing is allowed. I asked another time, I got no response.

I used to thrash about this a lot, but I realize I have no control over what Amazon does. I have better uses of my energy.

Um, yes it is. I think Amazon even enforces the 'law' (ie, TOS) from time to time. Maybe daily. We'll never know because it's not like the stuffers are coming here and telling us they were caught. But to say it's not a law because so many people are getting away with it is like saying it's fine and dandy to go 85mph in a 55mph zone because the cops aren't catching everyone doing 85 mph. If you take your argument to a judge, he'd laugh you out of court and tell you to pay your fine on the way out. Not being able to catch everyone is not the same as saying it is isn't enforced.

We're arguing different things. Yes, it's still illegal, and you can still get caught. But if no one ever polices the road, and people are regularly driving 85 MPH there, then the law is irrelevant.

Offline MaryMcDonald

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #176 on: January 04, 2018, 04:34:47 PM »
Not sure if any of you want to hear from a reader on this issue. But here it is anyway.

I appreciate the work dgaughran and Phoenix and others are doing on this. I am a reader, not an author. Since romance is being brought up, I am a huge romance reader, its my favorite genre. Its the best selling genre. Guess where these stuffing and scamming issues abound? Yep, romance.

I am a former reader of indie contemporary romance. Or I should say, most indie romance. There are still a few "old" ones.
Why? Because I can't find anything anymore in the sea of stuffed, scammed and regurgitated garbage. I actually read the genre, I hang out where readers hang out. I am not alone. I like me a bad boy romance, a mail order bride romance, a highlander romance. Can I find them now on Amazon? No. They have been infected by the same type of "marketing packages". Are there still well written romances by indie authors? Of course there are. But I can't find them anymore. Once in a blue moon I get a recommendation by a reader I trust and then I can try one. I won't even touch them with a 10 foot pole otherwise anymore, I been burned so many times. Unless I already know you, I don't care. And the saddest thing is that some authors that are known are doing this stuff now. That is the maddening.

I have a KU subscription. I also buy books outright and get some from library. When you browse, you can't sort out KU books, so its all in one blob. I don't browse anymore for books for those reasons. I am tired of seeing a cover and a blurb and then finding out its a short porn story with 20 other short stories tacked on to it. Or that it looks like a book, but ends at 40% when I read. Or its full of what I call "slap-and-chop" marketing. You know, but wait, click here......

There is a severe lack of impartial reader based recommendations sites that are not based on paid ads and marketing. I can't tell the good from the bad anymore and yes, I used to be able to do that. My vetting system still works. Its just much more strict and eliminates most gems I used to find on my own. And it eliminates pretty much most new authors.

And those that actually write the good stuff are missing out when we readers get run off by this stuff. I see reads going down for some of you each month and often so called page flip is blamed. But what about all of us that just can't find you guys anymore. Or we lost the will to sift through the bog. I been reading back list titles in KU, indies I know like Amanda, Madeline Baker, etc. Outside of KU I stick with indies also that are known to me. Many of them from KBoards. I been here since 2008 so I know those that been around a bit.

I said it before many times. The only way I think KU can be fixed is doing curation. It also fixes the overall issues. No mis-categorizing, no stuffing, no bonus, no nonsense translations, no box sets, etc. Every book gets looked at. If you are a proven author you get an auto in. You get caught "cheating" you are out. All they have to do is expand the prime reading into KU. I much rather have 100,000 books to pick from that are curated than 5 million that are not.

And yes, I have send feedback to amazon. I also send reports on books I see that are stuffed, scammy or wrongly categorized in obvious ways. I am not the only reader out there that has had it. Its really upsetting to read all those excuses being made. Not just here, but I see it on other places too. Justifying loopholes. But the end result is that reader experience has gone to the dogs. Sad.

I'm an author, but also a reader of romance (only have one romance myself, and it's over 3 years old. I gave up writing the genre because no way can I keep up!). Anyway, as a reader, I also love mail-order bride books, time travel, or western romance in general. I haven't found a good one in ages. I don't know if the books I've browsed have been stuffed because when I do the Look Inside to see how I like the writing, it takes me right to the sample. I'd have to scroll up to see the TOC, I guess, and I don't normally do that. I think I will from now on. If they are stuffed then it's probably a pretty good assumption that they are also ghost-written and so quality might be wildly different from book to book even if it's put out by the same 'author'.

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Offline sela

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #177 on: January 04, 2018, 04:40:11 PM »

We're arguing different things. Yes, it's still illegal, and you can still get caught. But if no one ever polices the road, and people are regularly driving 85 MPH there, then the law is irrelevant.

I really have to push back on this last bit.

We all know that there is a law against rape.

We all know that rape happens a lot.

We all also know that only 6% of rapists ever spend a day in jail.

Clearly, the law is not being enforced.

That does not make it okay for men to rape.

It's really sad when I have to resort to such an extreme case to make an ethical point.

Sure, maybe Amazon is not enforcing its own TOS on stuffing. That does not mean stuffing is okay. That does not mean that we should all just shut up and stop complaining.

Offline doctorshevil

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #178 on: January 04, 2018, 04:40:48 PM »
Not sure if any of you want to hear from a reader on this issue. But here it is anyway.

I appreciate the work dgaughran and Phoenix and others are doing on this. I am a reader, not an author. Since romance is being brought up, I am a huge romance reader, its my favorite genre. Its the best selling genre. Guess where these stuffing and scamming issues abound? Yep, romance.

I am a former reader of indie contemporary romance. Or I should say, most indie romance. There are still a few "old" ones.
Why? Because I can't find anything anymore in the sea of stuffed, scammed and regurgitated garbage. I actually read the genre, I hang out where readers hang out. I am not alone. I like me a bad boy romance, a mail order bride romance, a highlander romance. Can I find them now on Amazon? No. They have been infected by the same type of "marketing packages". Are there still well written romances by indie authors? Of course there are. But I can't find them anymore. Once in a blue moon I get a recommendation by a reader I trust and then I can try one. I won't even touch them with a 10 foot pole otherwise anymore, I been burned so many times. Unless I already know you, I don't care. And the saddest thing is that some authors that are known are doing this stuff now. That is the maddening.

I have a KU subscription. I also buy books outright and get some from library. When you browse, you can't sort out KU books, so its all in one blob. I don't browse anymore for books for those reasons. I am tired of seeing a cover and a blurb and then finding out its a short porn story with 20 other short stories tacked on to it. Or that it looks like a book, but ends at 40% when I read. Or its full of what I call "slap-and-chop" marketing. You know, but wait, click here......

There is a severe lack of impartial reader based recommendations sites that are not based on paid ads and marketing. I can't tell the good from the bad anymore and yes, I used to be able to do that. My vetting system still works. Its just much more strict and eliminates most gems I used to find on my own. And it eliminates pretty much most new authors.

And those that actually write the good stuff are missing out when we readers get run off by this stuff. I see reads going down for some of you each month and often so called page flip is blamed. But what about all of us that just can't find you guys anymore. Or we lost the will to sift through the bog. I been reading back list titles in KU, indies I know like Amanda, Madeline Baker, etc. Outside of KU I stick with indies also that are known to me. Many of them from KBoards. I been here since 2008 so I know those that been around a bit.

I said it before many times. The only way I think KU can be fixed is doing curation. It also fixes the overall issues. No mis-categorizing, no stuffing, no bonus, no nonsense translations, no box sets, etc. Every book gets looked at. If you are a proven author you get an auto in. You get caught "cheating" you are out. All they have to do is expand the prime reading into KU. I much rather have 100,000 books to pick from that are curated than 5 million that are not.

And yes, I have send feedback to amazon. I also send reports on books I see that are stuffed, scammy or wrongly categorized in obvious ways. I am not the only reader out there that has had it. Its really upsetting to read all those excuses being made. Not just here, but I see it on other places too. Justifying loopholes. But the end result is that reader experience has gone to the dogs. Sad.

Atunah: As a bad boy romance author, I totally agree with this. This is why I'm so sad for the readers: Because it's really, really hard for them to find legit new authors to read right now. I mean, I write bad boy romance, and I look through the new best sellers myself because I'm always looking for new talent but man, it's so hard because the scammy stuff has clogged up the lists so much that the legit stuff is really far down, and you have to *know* what to look for to sift through the scammers to find it. Which most readers just aren't going to know.

It sucks. I just keep writing, focus on quality, and on my readers, and hope for the best. But I also don't love that this handful of people are giving the whole of bad boy romance a bad name.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 04:42:29 PM by doctorshevil »

Offline PhoenixS

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #179 on: January 04, 2018, 04:44:50 PM »
Now if only they'd enforce that. I do think that at some point they will, and the screaming will be loud and long, as it was when the boxed set rules changed due to abuse. I don't think I'll feel sad.

Just a point of clarification, since it's mentioned in some ongoing legal battles and we should be crystal clear on this: The Select box set rule was implemented prior to the widespread abuse. We've tracked it back and taken screenshots of it on the Wayback Machine (archive.org). Whether folk were aware of it or not, it was not a new rule by a long shot when Amazon began to enforce it a little over a year ago.

Quote
I don't think I'll feel sad.
Me either.

Offline Ava Glass

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #180 on: January 04, 2018, 04:52:53 PM »
I've seen many, many romance authors write off David's complaints because of the language he uses. He could make it clearer he's talking about that certain group of authors who have a name for themselves, vs. bad boy romance authors as a whole.

I think it would also help to make the point that although the page skip issue is partially fixed, it is not fully. This way, people won't dismiss these discussions as "based on outdated info." We've seen it happen in this very thread.

ETA: Actually, do we know this issue hasn't been fully fixed? Has anyone tested the clould and PC readers in the last two months? What about books that have managed to disable Page Flip? Do authors who circumvent PF get paid for skipped reads? We need more testing.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 04:58:36 PM by Ava Glass »

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #181 on: January 04, 2018, 04:56:32 PM »

We're arguing different things. Yes, it's still illegal, and you can still get caught. But if no one ever polices the road, and people are regularly driving 85 MPH there, then the law is irrelevant.

What if one gets into an accident? If it can be proved, via witnesses or accident scene investigators, that the person who caused the accident was driving thirty mph over the speed limit, the consequences can be extremely severe. Also, what if another driver were hurt or killed in the accident? Bad enough to have caused the accident because of speeding, but even harder to live with the guilt. Laws, even those that are not often enforced, were created for a reason - usually to protect the rights and needs of others. Violate them and you (generic you) open yourself up to the possibility of getting yourself and others into a world of hurt. Same principle could be applied, although on a lesser scale, to the current topic under discussion,.


Offline Lefevre

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #182 on: January 04, 2018, 05:00:04 PM »
Thanks for posting this David.
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Offline Seneca42

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #183 on: January 04, 2018, 05:00:36 PM »
It's really sad when I have to resort to such an extreme case to make an ethical point.

Except the government (ie. police) can't monitor every citizen of every day to catch every rape as it happens so they have a slam dunk case in court. Zon on the other hand has f'ing skynet that sees all, hears all, tastes all, controls all. So if skynet is allowing things, it's because... it allows it.

This is a business, it's zon's job to gate what goes on their store. If they can't do that, particularly with KU, then shut 'er down. But we all know they can gate this stuff if they want to... they just don't care.




Offline lilywhite

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #184 on: January 04, 2018, 05:02:58 PM »
Like I said, I don't have a problem with it, but I've seen many, many romance authors write off David's complaints because of the language he uses. He could make it clearer he's talking about that certain group of authors who have a name for themselves, vs. bad boy romance authors as a whole.

He put it in quotes ("bad boy romance authors") -- you got it and I got it. Phoenix and Rosalind got it.

I can't help but be cynically curious if the people who act like they don't get it are just looking for a reason to be mad at him because he's calling out practices they endorse or participate in? I mean, I write bad boy romance and Dave is one of my dearest friends. I certainly don't feel judged.

Offline lilywhite

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #185 on: January 04, 2018, 05:05:02 PM »
It sucks. I just keep writing, focus on quality, and on my readers, and hope for the best. But I also don't love that this handful of people are giving the whole of bad boy romance a bad name.

I could have written this. It sucks.

Offline she-la-ti-da

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #186 on: January 04, 2018, 05:10:55 PM »
Quote
The only way I think KU can be fixed is doing curation. It also fixes the overall issues. No mis-categorizing, no stuffing, no bonus, no nonsense translations, no box sets, etc. Every book gets looked at. If you are a proven author you get an auto in. You get caught "cheating" you are out.

I've said it many times before that Amazon needs to curate the "Select" list. They don't have to do all of the books (though if Apple can do it, why can't Amazon?), just the ones that are being touted as something special, that readers should be interested in.

People tried to tell Amazon that KU wasn't going to work as they'd hoped. When the second version came around, warnings went out again. Both times, the warnings proved correct. I can understand in general that Amazon wants some leeway in the TOS, but for something that was ripe for scamming, those terms need to be crystal clear, with no loopholes. And they need to be enforced. Will it happen? Nah. We'll get KUv4, likely pretty soon, and then the wailing and gnashing will being anew, and the scammers will simply find a new way around it all, and thus the merry-go-round spins.

I also think some folks are being deliberately combative and misleading when they talk about stuffing and what's in the rules, or what's allowed VS what's enforced and so on. Most of us have seen that when Amazon finally does put their foot down, it's preceded by a bomb that takes out the innocent and maybe a few guilty get burned. But they seem to recover well enough.

Me? I've given up hope that anything substantive will be done. I use KU as best I can, because I need the money. I'm not blind to what's happening, and I truly hate that honest writers are getting hurt, and that readers are not finding books they want. It's broken and the only real fix would be to end the program, but I don't see that happening as long as people keep buying subscriptions.
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Offline LadyStarlight

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #187 on: January 04, 2018, 05:14:56 PM »
Simple way to fix this - lower the max for KENPC to, say, the equivalent of a doorstep novel. Lets say 700 KENPC, for the sake of argument. No more incentive to stuff.

THIS. I've been saying this for so long. It's such an easy fix. The 3000 limit is absurd and should not be that high. We could argue what it should be lowered to, but I think 700 is a reasonable number. By a quick guess, that's ~150k words. It's kind of just a bandaid and they can still stuff novellas out to the max w/ this change, but they wont really have too much of an advantage over those who write longer novels. The KU3 change already helped and we've saw the rate steadily start to come back up, but more needs to be done.

A single ASIN per title would be one step further. One title can only be in KU once. You want to bundle up KU titles? Fine, just don't allow them in KU. Making box sets and putting some kind of "bonus/extra ending/whatever" is just another more transparent way of trying to inch out extra page reads. The whole point of adding an extra ending or putting a bonus at the end is to have fans who've already read the original to just go grab it with KU and read the end, resulting in double dipping.

But until readers start to complain, I don't see anything getting done. A few do, but those who enjoy the free reads far outnumber them. From my own conversations with KDP, bonus content is allowed in it's predominant current form... a new release with <insert bonus content here>. Their action (or inaction) backs that up.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 05:27:32 PM by LadyStarlight »
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Offline MonkeyScribe

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #188 on: January 04, 2018, 05:16:29 PM »
Me? I've given up hope that anything substantive will be done. I use KU as best I can, because I need the money. I'm not blind to what's happening, and I truly hate that honest writers are getting hurt, and that readers are not finding books they want. It's broken and the only real fix would be to end the program, but I don't see that happening as long as people keep buying subscriptions.

I've mostly given up, too, but it bugs when people (not you) say hey, shouldn't have parked your car there if you didn't want it stolen. It's your fault there are thieves! Neglecting the fact that you're parking in the parking lot of your place of employment, and not just tooling around bad neighborhoods for the fun of it.

Offline Atunah

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #189 on: January 04, 2018, 05:25:20 PM »
I'm an author, but also a reader of romance (only have one romance myself, and it's over 3 years old. I gave up writing the genre because no way can I keep up!). Anyway, as a reader, I also love mail-order bride books, time travel, or western romance in general. I haven't found a good one in ages. I don't know if the books I've browsed have been stuffed because when I do the Look Inside to see how I like the writing, it takes me right to the sample. I'd have to scroll up to see the TOC, I guess, and I don't normally do that. I think I will from now on. If they are stuffed then it's probably a pretty good assumption that they are also ghost-written and so quality might be wildly different from book to book even if it's put out by the same 'author'.
I just don't have the time to read a gazillion look inside. I cannot read on my computer anyway so it would have to be samples. I cannot and will not read samples, ever. I don't having partial stories floating in my head and again, its a waste of time for me. I tried it, samples that is, could have read a actual good book instead. I just don't vet like that. So not an option anymore. I am just tired of it to be honest. Time travel is so difficult to find good newer stuff. besides Monique and Angela Quarles, which I recommend, I can't think of anything. I have to go back in time and find stuff from 20-25 years or so ago that has been re-released. I am working my way through Madeline Baker's excellent books in Ku right now. All back list titles from long ago. Mail order? Might as well re-read Loretta Chase over and over at this point. Just to frustrating. Once the stuffing branched out into HR, it was the end.

Atunah: As a bad boy romance author, I totally agree with this. This is why I'm so sad for the readers: Because it's really, really hard for them to find legit new authors to read right now. I mean, I write bad boy romance, and I look through the new best sellers myself because I'm always looking for new talent but man, it's so hard because the scammy stuff has clogged up the lists so much that the legit stuff is really far down, and you have to *know* what to look for to sift through the scammers to find it. Which most readers just aren't going to know.

It sucks. I just keep writing, focus on quality, and on my readers, and hope for the best. But I also don't love that this handful of people are giving the whole of bad boy romance a bad name.
Yes, its sad. For readers and authors. But I just don't have the time and patience to sift through it anymore. I just can't. I just want to read good books. I used to browse the top sellers, new releases. Not anymore. I don't care anymore, I really don't. I just want to read. Its making me sad what has happened to my favorite genre. I been going back more and more to trade publishers where I don't have to deal with any of this stuff. And I was one of the early indie romance readers right here. But it is what it is. Time is money and lifeblood really. The older I get, the less time I have to waste on crap books. Perception is there. I see a stuffed book, I assume its not good. Now I don't even look anymore.

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Offline Crystal_

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #190 on: January 04, 2018, 05:26:42 PM »
I really have to push back on this last bit.

We all know that there is a law against rape.

We all know that rape happens a lot.

We all also know that only 6% of rapists ever spend a day in jail.

Clearly, the law is not being enforced.

That does not make it okay for men to rape.

It's really sad when I have to resort to such an extreme case to make an ethical point.

Sure, maybe Amazon is not enforcing its own TOS on stuffing. That does not mean stuffing is okay. That does not mean that we should all just shut up and stop complaining.

That isn't a good comparison, because it implies that rapes are not prosecuted, when they are. The majority of rapes aren't reported. Many that are reported are prosecuted because of lack of evidence.

Zon has all the evidence it needs to any ToS violation. It's right there in the book/on the product page.

But that is irrelevant to what I'm saying.

I'm not saying lack of enforcement makes it okay to break the law. I'm saying lack of enforcement makes a law irrelevant. There might as well not be a law in terms of how it will affect behavior. If a law is never enforced, people don't concern themselves with the consequences for breaking the law.

If Amazon doesn't enforce its ToS, people won't worry about violating the ToS. You can see this in author behavior. No one worried about extra subtitles until Amazon started enforcing that. Authors actively avoid publishing content that gets blocked, because Amazon enforces their no noncon rule. Few authors worry about their keywords/categories being totally accurate, because Amazon does not enforce that. etc, etc, etc.

Offline TessOliver

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #191 on: January 04, 2018, 05:29:28 PM »
Not sure if any of you want to hear from a reader on this issue. But here it is anyway.

I appreciate the work dgaughran and Phoenix and others are doing on this. I am a reader, not an author. Since romance is being brought up, I am a huge romance reader, its my favorite genre. Its the best selling genre. Guess where these stuffing and scamming issues abound? Yep, romance.

I am a former reader of indie contemporary romance. Or I should say, most indie romance. There are still a few "old" ones.
Why? Because I can't find anything anymore in the sea of stuffed, scammed and regurgitated garbage. I actually read the genre, I hang out where readers hang out. I am not alone. I like me a bad boy romance, a mail order bride romance, a highlander romance. Can I find them now on Amazon? No. They have been infected by the same type of "marketing packages". Are there still well written romances by indie authors? Of course there are. But I can't find them anymore. Once in a blue moon I get a recommendation by a reader I trust and then I can try one. I won't even touch them with a 10 foot pole otherwise anymore, I been burned so many times. Unless I already know you, I don't care. And the saddest thing is that some authors that are known are doing this stuff now. That is the maddening.

I have a KU subscription. I also buy books outright and get some from library. When you browse, you can't sort out KU books, so its all in one blob. I don't browse anymore for books for those reasons. I am tired of seeing a cover and a blurb and then finding out its a short porn story with 20 other short stories tacked on to it. Or that it looks like a book, but ends at 40% when I read. Or its full of what I call "slap-and-chop" marketing. You know, but wait, click here......

There is a severe lack of impartial reader based recommendations sites that are not based on paid ads and marketing. I can't tell the good from the bad anymore and yes, I used to be able to do that. My vetting system still works. Its just much more strict and eliminates most gems I used to find on my own. And it eliminates pretty much most new authors.

And those that actually write the good stuff are missing out when we readers get run off by this stuff. I see reads going down for some of you each month and often so called page flip is blamed. But what about all of us that just can't find you guys anymore. Or we lost the will to sift through the bog. I been reading back list titles in KU, indies I know like Amanda, Madeline Baker, etc. Outside of KU I stick with indies also that are known to me. Many of them from KBoards. I been here since 2008 so I know those that been around a bit.

I said it before many times. The only way I think KU can be fixed is doing curation. It also fixes the overall issues. No mis-categorizing, no stuffing, no bonus, no nonsense translations, no box sets, etc. Every book gets looked at. If you are a proven author you get an auto in. You get caught "cheating" you are out. All they have to do is expand the prime reading into KU. I much rather have 100,000 books to pick from that are curated than 5 million that are not.

And yes, I have send feedback to amazon. I also send reports on books I see that are stuffed, scammy or wrongly categorized in obvious ways. I am not the only reader out there that has had it. Its really upsetting to read all those excuses being made. Not just here, but I see it on other places too. Justifying loopholes. But the end result is that reader experience has gone to the dogs. Sad.

I copied Atunah's post because it is worth a second read.

The store is such a cluttered mess. Amazon had this amazing site with algorithms that let the "cream" rise naturally to the top. That store no longer exists. As an author I wish they would make two separate lists, one for KU and one for wide books. They don't seem interested in fixing the scam problem (I gave up and pulled my books from KU deciding I could no longer share the pot with scammers) but it would be nice if they let those of us who just want to sell books wide have a chance to be seen on the sight. It seems like a separate list would be good for authors and readers.

And David, as a legit "bad boy author" I never miss reading your posts. Thanks for keeping up the fight.

Offline Rosie A.

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #192 on: January 04, 2018, 05:31:25 PM »
I'm an author, but also a reader of romance (only have one romance myself, and it's over 3 years old. I gave up writing the genre because no way can I keep up!). Anyway, as a reader, I also love mail-order bride books, time travel, or western romance in general. I haven't found a good one in ages. I don't know if the books I've browsed have been stuffed because when I do the Look Inside to see how I like the writing, it takes me right to the sample. I'd have to scroll up to see the TOC, I guess, and I don't normally do that. I think I will from now on. If they are stuffed then it's probably a pretty good assumption that they are also ghost-written and so quality might be wildly different from book to book even if it's put out by the same 'author'.
It's not just bad boy romance this is happening in. Western romance is full of these stuffed books. I don't even risk trying a new to me author anymore in mail-order-brides because of the stuffing. The last one I did try--I thought I was getting a novel about a single mother. It turned out to be close to 30 stories stuffed in that book. I got p*ssed. That's not what I thought I was buying. Plus it's cheating. Much like Atunah, I pretty much find my reads on Goodreads now, in thrift stores or at the library. I don't use KU to read anymore.

Offline KelliWolfe

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #193 on: January 04, 2018, 05:33:25 PM »
I've mostly given up, too, but it bugs when people (not you) say hey, shouldn't have parked your car there if you didn't want it stolen. It's your fault there are thieves! Neglecting the fact that you're parking in the parking lot of your place of employment, and not just tooling around bad neighborhoods for the fun of it.
The problem with that analogy is that in this case your employer is actively paying the thieves who steal the cars, and they don't care if it's your car that gets stolen so long as they get their cut as usual. Oh, and they make you pay for parking there, too.

As a reader I second everything Atunah has said in here.

Olivia Blake | Lessons in Love

Offline SaraBourgeois

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #194 on: January 04, 2018, 05:34:26 PM »
That isn't a good comparison, because it implies that rapes are not prosecuted, when they are. The majority of rapes aren't reported. Many that are reported are prosecuted because of lack of evidence.

Zon has all the evidence it needs to any ToS violation. It's right there in the book/on the product page.

But that is irrelevant to what I'm saying.

I'm not saying lack of enforcement makes it okay to break the law. I'm saying lack of enforcement makes a law irrelevant. There might as well not be a law in terms of how it will affect behavior. If a law is never enforced, people don't concern themselves with the consequences for breaking the law.

If Amazon doesn't enforce its ToS, people won't worry about violating the ToS. You can see this in author behavior. No one worried about extra subtitles until Amazon started enforcing that. Authors actively avoid publishing content that gets blocked, because Amazon enforces their no noncon rule. Few authors worry about their keywords/categories being totally accurate, because Amazon does not enforce that. etc, etc, etc.

Book stuffing would be more like jaywalking. It's against the law, but nobody cares. I've jaywalked in front of the police and the courthhouse.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 05:39:27 PM by SaraBourgeois »

Offline MonkeyScribe

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #195 on: January 04, 2018, 05:52:40 PM »
Book stuffing would be more like jaywalking. It's against the law, but nobody cares. I've jaywalked in front of the police and the courthhouse.

Jaywalking while stealing purses and wallets from people in the crosswalk.

Online Usedtoposthere

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #196 on: January 04, 2018, 05:56:27 PM »
Book stuffing would be more like jaywalking. It's against the law, but nobody cares. I've jaywalked in front of the police and the courthhouse.
My son got a ticket for jaywalking in high school. He had to pay about $150 in fines and court costs AND had to do 20 hours of community service.

It was a world of hurt.

In that case, the cops gave him a ticket (I assume) because they were trying to stop the h-s kids in the city from doing so much jaywalking, endangering them and putting drivers at risk of hitting a kid, which would be horrible. It was a deterrence issue, and unfortunately, he was one of the ones caught up in it.

We'll see if Amazon ever deters. This "crime" isn't much like jaywalking--it doesn't really put the authors at risk, because the people who do it mostly seem to be the ones who are just doing the "author" thing as a money-making deal. It's more like arresting auto thieves, I'd say. In some neighborhoods in the SF Bay Area, where I used to live, the police have pretty much abandoned all pretense of going after car thieves. Which means the crimes are just absolutely brazen at this point. Infuriating to law-abiding people who are SOL if they don't have an off-street place to park their cars. And encouraging the thieves to move on to home burglary, since the cops won't even come out and take a report on that anymore.

Yeah, I'd say it's pretty much just like that. Auto burglary and home burglary are still crimes, of course. The victims still care mightily. It's still wrong. The city just doesn't have/isn't willing to deliver the resources to fight it.

Offline Crystal_

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #197 on: January 04, 2018, 06:01:00 PM »
Book stuffing would be more like jaywalking. It's against the law, but nobody cares. I've jaywalked in front of the police and the courthhouse.

It's not even, but it's not against the ToS if the stuffing is differentiated content.

I don't like that stuffing isn't against the ToS, but it is what it is.

The fact that we continue to disagree about if it's against the ToS are not doesn't speak well to the clarity of the ToS.

Offline Jena H

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #198 on: January 04, 2018, 06:02:36 PM »
Book stuffing would be more like jaywalking. It's against the law, but nobody cares. I've jaywalked in front of the police and the courthhouse.

You must be so proud.


Jaywalking while stealing purses and wallets from people in the crosswalk.

This.  Jaywalking itself doesn't "hurt" anyone (except in case of a lead-footed driver).  So NO, jaywalking itself isn't a good analogy either, unless you add MonkeyScribe's scenario to the mix.
Jena

Offline SaraBourgeois

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Re: KU Page Stuffing Explained - Helpful Video
« Reply #199 on: January 04, 2018, 06:04:17 PM »
Jaywalking while stealing purses and wallets from people in the crosswalk.

Only squares jaywalk in the crosswalk. You gotta do that in the middle of the street.  ;D