Author Topic: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages  (Read 9756 times)  

Offline writerbiter

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Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« on: April 13, 2018, 09:20:35 AM »
I propose we contact Amazon and ask to lower the current KNEP cap from 3000 pages to 1000 pages.

Asking Amazon to police their entire store for "stuffed" content is silly and ineffective. If the customers don't mind having bonus material, Amazon won't disrupt their experience. However, if they lower the KNEP cap for payable material, the customers can still read their bonus material, but the exploitation of the KU system will be resolved and the monthly page inflation slow.

Plus--Amazon has already lowered the cap once before. This is an easy, effective, and fair solution, and one Amazon is equipped to implement immediately. 

On average, each KNEP page equates to 150-200 words per page. At the current 3000 KNEP cap, this means a file could contain upwards of 600,000 words. This is an obscene amount of words--far longer than any novel. Even the largest George RR Martin novel is only 2/3 of that cap.

Lowering the cap to 1000 will mean a file could contain upwards of 200,000 words, which could still allow for even the largest scifi/fantasy novels. However, it will dramatically lower the amount of money potentially made from those who would exploit the pages-read system--limiting earnings from $14 per entire file to $4 per file.

This solution requires no additional programming, manpower, or oversight from Amazon. It is an easy fix that will slow the rampant page stuffing which exploits a loophole in the pages read system.  It will ensure that All-Star Bonuses will once again go to the books that earned the most reads, not the authors publishing vast amounts of ghostwritten material with the most pages included in the file. The rampant page inflation will slow, resulting in greater payouts per page. And it will also deter some of the unseen scammers who are clickfarming and boosting books in lower ranks to steal from the system.

I've already spoken with an Amazon rep on the phone regarding this issue. While he could offer me no guarantees, he directed me to have anyone in favor of this change to email KDP at:

KDP-CRS <at> amazon.com

Numerous authors have already emailed their support--mostly top 100 romance authors. If authors from other genres also email in--especially genres which do not traditionally "stuff" their new releases--it will help to demonstrate the seriousness of this particular program exploitation. 

I firmly believe Amazon does not understand the exploitation of their systems or how large a 3000 KNEP file truly is. If authors share their experiences, concerns, and common word counts and KNEP pages for their single-title files, the representatives will understand the importance of this issue.

Offline Jim Johnson

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2018, 09:34:44 AM »
This solution requires no additional programming, manpower, or oversight from Amazon. It is an easy fix that will slow the rampant page stuffing which exploits a loophole in the pages read system.  It will ensure that All-Star Bonuses will once again go to the books that earned the most reads, not the authors publishing vast amounts of ghostwritten material with the most pages included in the file. The rampant page inflation will slow, resulting in greater payouts per page. And it will also deter some of the unseen scammers who are clickfarming and boosting books in lower ranks to steal from the system.

Spitballing here, but dropping the cap isn't really the issue is it? It's stopping the stuffers. What's to stop a scammer from releasing a ton of 1000 page books rather than slightly fewer 3000 page books?  And would a glut of 1000 page books in the market potentially harm writers who write really long books and might end up close to that cap even tho they might be entirely honest writers and not scamming?

Offline Seneca42

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2018, 09:37:14 AM »
be careful what you suggest to amazon, they are known to act on suggestions authors provide.   :P

Offline jsm

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2018, 09:45:57 AM »
I don't agree with this. I have a book that's roughly 250,000 words (about 1,350 KENPC if I recall) and another that's roughly 200,000 (about 1,100 KENPC). They are box sets for the complete 'seasons' for a serial I wrote, neither of which contain any stuffed material, bonus material, etc., just the story itself.

While I agree with the sentiment behind your proposal (stopping the scammers), I don't think a blanket solution like this that penalizes authors who write legitimate books (that happen to be long) is the answer.

Offline MarkParragh

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2018, 09:51:07 AM »
Based on the individual book KENP counts, the box set I'm planning - three full-length books plus two linking novellas - wouldn't be 3,000 KENP, but it would certainly be more than 1,000.

I suspect I'm far from the only person who would run afoul of that limit.

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Offline Jill Nojack

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2018, 09:53:47 AM »
I don't agree with this. I have a book that's roughly 250,000 words (about 1,350 KENPC if I recall) and another that's roughly 200,000 (about 1,100 KENPC). They are box sets for the complete 'seasons' for a serial I wrote, neither of which contain any stuffed material, bonus material, etc., just the story itself.

While I agree with the sentiment behind your proposal (stopping the scammers), I don't think a blanket solution like this that penalizes authors who write legitimate books (that happen to be long) is the answer.

I assume that the individual books are available separately in KU? So, while it may not be quite as convenient for a reader as it would be to grab the entire series at once, nothing would prevent them from reading the books individually. There doesn't appear to be any penalty here.

When I like an author's books, I will certainly spend the time to research the reading order and borrow them individually. I do it all the time. I expect most readers are the same.

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Offline David VanDyke

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2018, 09:54:56 AM »
This has been proposed before. Maybe they'll listen now, who knows?

Yes, it would cut a little into folks like jsm, but so does any regulation or restriction in life. We usually give up a little freedom or convenience in order to gain a bit more security or fairness overall. The trick is always to minimize the unfairness while maximizing the fairness.

But I'm in favor of any lowering of the cap. They could lower it to 1500, for example, which would affect very few legit authors, but cut into the scammers. It's not a solution in itself, but every measure that makes it harder for scammers without doing much to hurt the legit is a good thing. Just like in the physical world, it's not locks alone that minimizes your vulnerability to being robbed--it's locks and bars and lights and alarms and laws and vigilance and policing and neighbors and a dozen other factors together.


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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2018, 09:57:36 AM »
If you do that, it will prevent those books that are over 1,000 KENP being included in KU. All that will happen is authors will split longer books. Also, that doesn't stop someone from stuffing 800 pages after their cover story. It will be a minor inconvenience to the scammers because they will have to produce more covers.

I would love to see some solutions that address the problem, and not the symptoms.

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Offline Becca Mills

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2018, 10:02:55 AM »
Hmm.

I'm pretty sure there is no solution that will harm no one; there never seems to be a harm-free way to solve any problem. If that's the case, the best solution would be the one that harms the fewest overall and harms no one catastrophically.

In terms of approaching Amazon, perhaps one worthwhile question is whether a 1,000- or 1,500-KENP cap would preserve what Amazon apparently likes about the 3,000-KENP cap. Pitching the positive might be as important as pitching the cessation of the negative.

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2018, 10:06:12 AM »
It might be more efficient to restrict bonus content to ten or twenty percent of the total file size. Enforcement could be as easy as hanging a threat over stuffer's heads that any book found in violation would be blocked until it was in compliance.


Offline jsm

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2018, 10:07:38 AM »
I assume that the individual books are available separately in KU? So, while it may not be quite as convenient for a reader as it would be to grab the entire series at once, nothing would prevent them from reading the books individually. There doesn't appear to be any penalty here.

When I like an author's books, I will certainly spend the time to research the reading order and borrow them individually. I do it all the time. I expect most readers are the same.


They are. While that may hold true for you, I think generally any time you make something less convenient for the consumer, conversions will go down.

If you do that, it will prevent those books that are over 1,000 KENP being included in KU. All that will happen is authors will split longer books. Also, that doesn't stop someone from stuffing 800 pages after their cover story. It will be a minor inconvenience to the scammers because they will have to produce more covers.

I would love to see some solutions that address the problem, and not the symptoms.

Well put. Quick fixes generally don't solve problems, they just band-aid over them. So if you lower the cap to 1,000 KENPC, scammers will probably just adjust their books to come in under the new limit.

Offline JWright

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2018, 10:21:50 AM »
It's possible that might help, but my feeling is if you cut KENPC by 1/3 they will just respond by putting out at least three times more books to make up for it.

Offline writerbiter

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2018, 10:27:55 AM »
Spitballing here, but dropping the cap isn't really the issue is it? It's stopping the stuffers. What's to stop a scammer from releasing a ton of 1000 page books rather than slightly fewer 3000 page books?  And would a glut of 1000 page books in the market potentially harm writers who write really long books and might end up close to that cap even tho they might be entirely honest writers and not scamming?

The worst offenders, those who are exploiting the system, are spending a majority of their earnings on advertising--$1500-$2000 or more a day between Facebook and AMS ads. Probably more in certain special circumstances. They're able to do this because they have huge advertising budgets, a whole company based on hiring full-time salaried PAs, and a cadre of ghostwriters at their disposal. They're spending tremendous amounts of money to make very little, but they are making some profits, which encourages the behavior.

If they wish to publish more books, that's fine. They'll need to release double or triple the amount of books on a budget that is one third of their original earnings. It will be impossible for them to profit with this new system. 

Amazon is unlikely to change their policy on bonus content, so we need to meet them in the middle with a proposal that is easy for them to implement and returns the spirit of the program to the KU. This will limit bonus content and make it more difficult for those who take advantage of the system to reach the rankings which offer them the visibility to continue with their particular business plan.

Offline writerbiter

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2018, 10:38:51 AM »
I don't agree with this. I have a book that's roughly 250,000 words (about 1,350 KENPC if I recall) and another that's roughly 200,000 (about 1,100 KENPC). They are box sets for the complete 'seasons' for a serial I wrote, neither of which contain any stuffed material, bonus material, etc., just the story itself.

While I agree with the sentiment behind your proposal (stopping the scammers), I don't think a blanket solution like this that penalizes authors who write legitimate books (that happen to be long) is the answer.

Unfortunately, lowering the cap would harm a small section of authors who write tremendously large books. However, in this instance, it would improve the store/economy for 99% of other authors out there. Very, very few authors write 200k+ books. Even yours is a boxed set. You could easily create two volumes for your set and still attract readers.

While you are not exploiting the system, but many other authors are, and their actions are reducing the amount of money your large box set would make. This change would greatly improve the KU for many many authors out there, and would protect the authors who can't or aren't able to create boxed sets like your series. Non-fiction authors. Women's fiction. Thrillers. Etc.

Offline Dragovian

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2018, 12:13:15 PM »
I still think the focus on how many pages are allowed in a book is the wrong focus. If we could be sure Amazon was only counting pages actually read by actual humans, as opposed to people using click farms, the number of pages in a book wouldn't matter, because people stop reading when they stop enjoying the book. The injurious effects of "stuffing" don't come from the length of the book, they come from the underhanded methods used to get paid for all of the pages. Legitimate page reads are not a problem, whether a book has a KENPC of 30 or 3000.


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Offline PatriciaDreas

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2018, 12:40:06 PM »
It might be more efficient to restrict bonus content to ten or twenty percent of the total file size. Enforcement could be as easy as hanging a threat over stuffer's heads that any book found in violation would be blocked until it was in compliance.

This sounds like a good solution.

Offline Lorri Moulton

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2018, 12:48:41 PM »
On average, each KNEP page equates to 150-200 words per page. At the current 3000 KNEP cap, this means a file could contain upwards of 600,000 words. This is an obscene amount of words--far longer than any novel. Even the largest George RR Martin novel is only 2/3 of that cap.

Doesn't this mean George RR Martin would have to split his book in half to be in KU? 

Seems like a better idea would be to not allow content that's already been published.  Maybe a 10% cap on any previous material...just as there's a 10% cap in having anything outside of KDP available to the public?

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Offline writerbiter

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2018, 01:02:20 PM »
Doesn't this mean George RR Martin would have to split his book in half to be in KU? 

Seems like a better idea would be to not allow content that's already been published.  Maybe a 10% cap on any previous material...just as there's a 10% cap in having anything outside of KDP available to the public?

At the current cap, even Martin's LONGEST book wouldn't fill the 3000 KNEP. He'd be lucky to reach 2/3rds of the limit. He could stuff a Game of Thrones (292k) and Clash of Kings (318k) into a single file if he wished.

And yes, after the change, he would have to cut his books in half. Then again, he needs special considerations from TOR/their printers in order to even print a paperback that large. He is an exception, not the rule. Especially as most agents/editors advice fantasy writers to aim for 80k-110k words, 150k words max.

How many KU authors out there legitimately have a 200k+ single title book--not a boxed series, a single story. It is an incredibly small number. We shouldn't make exceptions for a tiny percentage of writers while the community at large is suffering as a result of the exploits.

Offline writerbiter

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2018, 01:07:54 PM »
It might be more efficient to restrict bonus content to ten or twenty percent of the total file size. Enforcement could be as easy as hanging a threat over stuffer's heads that any book found in violation would be blocked until it was in compliance.

Unfortunately, that requires readers or other authors policing the store, and then it would require customer service agents on Amazon's side to verify the complaint. This adds MORE manpower to the equation, and Amazon is not a company that likes to hire MORE workers when it could simply automate a solution. Limiting the total amount of pages per file would reduce the amount of exploitative stuffing--and, when those publishers realize they aren't making the thousands of dollars required for them to publish their books and push the new releases to the top 100, they'd be forced out of the program. They won't be able to launch double or triple the amount of books on one third of their normal earnings.

This is the easiest way to make a change. Amazon won't hire people, reprogram the KU, review individual files more closely, or monitor for only original content. We have to make it easy on them. They've already lowered the cap once before. We'd be asking for them to do it again.

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2018, 01:16:54 PM »
I think it would curtail the scammers for sure. And its still quite a lot of pages.

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2018, 01:21:13 PM »
Ok, so can someone explain this to me as I think I'm being an idiot... :D

According to this thread the issue is people doing this with books...

Book 1: A,B,C,D

Book 2: B,C,D,A

Book 3: C,D,A,B

Book 4: D,A,B,C

Right?

But I don't see how this would work unless you are using click farms (which they might be).

A reader whose read book 1 isn't going to read the others as they have already done so!

« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 01:50:27 PM by A.G.B »

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2018, 01:33:42 PM »
I like it!

I do agree that this wouldn't fully solve the problem, but it WOULD force the scammers to pay significantly more in advertising, covers, etc., in order to make the same amount.

Amazon still needs to address wider issues with KU, but this would definitely be a step in the right direction. Right now, a full "rental" of a 3,000 page book pays the scammers over $13. In contrast, a full "rental" of a 1,000 page book would pay them about $4.50.  If you're a scammer earning 13 bucks a borrow, it's easy to see where you'd have the money to pay for not only huge advertising efforts, but also more nefarious services.

Personally, I'd be happy with a limit of 500 pages, but 1,000 is surely better than 3,000. Count me among those who will contact Amazon to ask for this.

Offline Nicholas Erik

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2018, 01:44:42 PM »
The problem with bonus content is one of enforcement: how does one determine 10%? Does the foreword count? Copyright? An excerpt? What about 11%? 15%? Sure, there can be automated mechanisms, but that requires programming. It also requires Amazon to get it right. Considering KDP flags my books for typos that appear in every dictionary on the planet, forgive me if I'm wary of any automated system combing my book for "bonus" content and then mistaking an index or afterword as such.

The 1,000 KENP cap does solve certain problems. One of the reasons authors place all the titles behind a new release is because of the All Star bonuses. These help subsidize massive ad spends. If these bonuses disappear, then at least some of these authors stuffing multiple books into a title will no longer have a sustainable business model. And it also means that more authors who are playing within the spirit of the TOS will get the single-title bonuses instead.

However, that doesn't solve the problem alone. I'm not convinced that book stuffing, as practiced by "normal" authors (e.g. people not using black hat techniques) is hurting most of us (again, it does hurt the Kindle All Stars). But in conjunction with click farms or click to the back inducements, it's a huge problem. So any solutions should be aimed at making it more difficult for the people using clearly disallowed tactics to profit.

Here are my proposed solutions:

1) Fix the loophole in the Cloud Reader. That's the only existing one I know of. When authors send KDP support a bunch of complaints about everyone using click-to-the-back/page skipping shenanigans, most of that stuff doesn't work any more, so it makes us look like we're tilting at long-fixed windmills. Allegedly there are other exploits, but DG (who says there are others) has refrained from publicly posting them. I understand why, but I think he might need to - or at least arrange some way of sharing them with the group - because then we can all determine if they are indeed big problems, and, if so, then email about the SAME problems and actually get KDP to take a look.

2) reduce max payout to 1000 or 1500 KENP.

3) One title per ASIN if you want to enroll that book in KU. You can still publish box sets/bundles, but they aren't eligible for KU. It's important to nail down what single title means: you can have a brief excerpt of the next book in the back, but no short stories, novellas, novels, or other bonus content. Standard inclusions: copyright, also-by, newsletter links, a brief afterword are okay. Anything you'd reasonably expect in a standard mass market paperback. Otherwise, just the book on the cover.

Alternative idea (just spitballing)

1) cap the page read payout based on the price. If you're at $0.99, you can't make more than $0.35 for a full read of your book. If you're at $2.99, then you can only make $1.70. I suspect even less people will like that, but why should we get paid more for a full read of their book than the purchase price? That doesn't really make a lot of sense. This also solves the downward price inertia issue that's killing some genres.

General guidelines that I think would be good to follow, regardless of agreed upon solution:


1) We need solutions that a lot of authors are behind, not just a random collection of ideas blasted at KDP. One to three EASY fixes that address the root of the problem - a unified front is key.

2) Only 100% confirmed issues. That page flip wigging out hurts us isn't actually confirmed, despite all the teeth gnashing (yes, I've read all the threads about it; no, I don't buy that everyone is being cheated out of money by it, since the glitch, if it still exists in any meaningful way, affects everyone). Regardless of how you feel (let's not get off in the weeds here - seriously), Amazon just ignores it. Don't muddy the waters. Keep emotions out of it. Keep it to things that their techs and support team can easily replicate and are OBVIOUS violations/problems.

That's key, I think, and one of the reasons suggestions often disappear into KDP Support purgatory. The tendency is for emotions to run high, and then everyone's running around reporting random BS and gets off in the weeds. That makes support go, these authors are crazy - they're just on some witch hunt or stirring the pot. If five hundred people propose the same ideas and report the SAME issues, then they have to sit back and be like hmm, maybe this is a problem.

3) Propose solutions that Amazon will realistically implement. Like, "hire more people to review the books" isn't a fix. You know Amazon isn't going to do that, so don't send them that; it makes them ignore everything else. We know how Amazon works, and that's fine - they can run their business how they see fit. We should provide solutions they would realistically be willing to implement.

It's inevitable that any solution will result in some legitimate authors being hurt by the changes. The goal is to minimize that and maximize the positive effects. It is better we propose solutions that are more scalpel-like, rather than the inevitability of Amazon arriving with a hacksaw. Something is going to change. That much is clear - the current system is not sustainable. But maybe we can have a say in our destiny. Because saying "I like things the way they are and nothing should change" is fine, but it's not going to be reality.

Nick
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 01:46:50 PM by Nicholas Erik »

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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2018, 01:46:52 PM »
Unfortunately, that requires readers or other authors policing the store, and then it would require customer service agents on Amazon's side to verify the complaint.

Authors are already policing the store and occasionally getting results, so no difference there except in the clarity of the violation. Amazon gendarmes want clarity just as much as we do.

But that's only half of the equation. A clear TOS statement such as "Bonus content shall not exceed ten percent of file size" doesn't engage the rambling "what if" discussion witnessed here on box sets, genre exceptions, etc. A stuffer only needs to get one book blocked or have his account suspended once to get a clear message -- stuffing is a violation of TOS. What is stuffing? Bonus content in excess of 10% of file size (or 20%, whatever).

I think your suggestion just tosses more mud into the already murky waters.


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Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2018, 01:56:09 PM »
Unfortunately, that requires readers or other authors policing the store, and then it would require customer service agents on Amazon's side to verify the complaint. This adds MORE manpower to the equation, and Amazon is not a company that likes to hire MORE workers when it could simply automate a solution. Limiting the total amount of pages per file would reduce the amount of exploitative stuffing--and, when those publishers realize they aren't making the thousands of dollars required for them to publish their books and push the new releases to the top 100, they'd be forced out of the program. They won't be able to launch double or triple the amount of books on one third of their normal earnings.

This is the easiest way to make a change. Amazon won't hire people, reprogram the KU, review individual files more closely, or monitor for only original content. We have to make it easy on them. They've already lowered the cap once before. We'd be asking for them to do it again.

Unfortunately, this only (partly) solves the stuffing problem, because I suspect clickfarms have become the bigger beast as KU scams go.  The two go hand in hand: a blackhat publisher pays a clickfarm for reads on a stuffed book.  Under this scenario, it makes no difference to the clickfarm or the writer if 1000 bot accounts read a 3000 KENP book (=3,000,000 pages read) or 3000 bot accounts read a 1000 KENP book (=3,000,000 pages read) or 1000 bot accounts read 3 books at 1000 KENP each (=3,000,000 pages read).  Knowing this, the page cap isn't the full problem: the bots and clickfarms are a problem all their own.

So what enables bots and clickfarms?  Well, probably all of the free trials of KU that Amazon hands out.  It's easy to make money hand over fist when you don't have to pay for the KU trial accounts generating your money.  Also, they don't currently have a way to distinguish if a reader is a human or a computer program designed to flip pages for maximum profit. 

Amazon could stop giving out free months of KU, but we all know that won't happen.  They could stop paying on page reads from trial months, but that hurts all authors, and we have no way to know what percentage of reads that represents. Also, while it cuts into the bottom line, it would still be feasible to run a clickfarm with paid accounts. I also saw someone around here (I'm sorry, I don't remember who or where, but your idea is great!) suggesting they put in a CAPTCHA requirement. (Computers are bad at CAPTCHAs.)  Maybe every 500-1000 pages?  This would have an effect on the customer experience, but as it's only for books read through KU, I would think the intrusion would be negligible.  It would also require that the clickfarms have more humans on hand to babysit the operation and input CAPTCHAs, and that will drive up scammers' costs.

I am also a proponent of silently stopping bot accounts on Amazon's end. When they find accounts that are botted, they *shouldn't* send an angry note to the account accusing manipulation.  Keep collecting the KU payments and stop paying reads that they know are coming from botted accounts--that way, clickfarms don't know which of their reader accounts are still paying and which ones are caught.  Clickfarms would have to regularly refresh *all* of their reader accounts to keep them fresh and paying, and that puts an extra time/money burden on them. In this scenario, the only authors who would miss those uncounted page reads are the ones who were expecting them because they paid a clickfarm to bot their book.

Just my rambling thoughts on the issue.  I don't have anything in KU right now and haven't for a while.
  I write urban fantasy.  There are girls in gowns and glowy hands on my covers.

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