Author Topic: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages  (Read 8369 times)  

Offline JulesWright

  • Status: Madeleine L'Engle
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #150 on: April 15, 2018, 04:08:41 PM »
I don't believe it would cut into the abuse in any measurable way, so I guess that is where we differ. 

I get that no single measure will entirely eliminate a problem.


Because life is not binary. It's incremental. Lowering the payment cap would cut into the abuse.

It's like why you put a lock on your door. People can still break in--it just makes it harder.

Offline Not Lu

  • Status: Jane Austen
  • ***
  • Posts: 330
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #151 on: April 15, 2018, 04:24:06 PM »

One book read costs more than that person is paying for a month to read it.


To get paid one person's KU subscription requires the person to read 2,230 KU pages. That's probably 40 to 60 hours of reading for the fast to average reader. So, it's likely that book is the only book the subscriber read that month.

The math works for everyone fairly because authors are paid per page read. The amount of entertainment each author gives to readers is given back evenly.

Offline Not Lu

  • Status: Jane Austen
  • ***
  • Posts: 330
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #152 on: April 15, 2018, 04:35:56 PM »
To the epic fantasy folks -

So what's your solution here, all hail Hydra?

 :(

And if so...what do we say to the romance writers losing their collective asses? This is a serious question.

I've said it twice already, but it looks like it needs to be said again.

1. Identify duplicate content and eliminate it from KU
2. Identify botted borrows and don't count them towards rank
3. Identify botted page reads and don't pay authors for them


Offline SeanHinn

  • Status: Lewis Carroll
  • **
  • Posts: 180
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #153 on: April 15, 2018, 04:45:44 PM »
To the epic fantasy folks -

So what's your solution here, all hail Hydra?

 :(

And if so...what do we say to the romance writers losing their collective asses? This is a serious question.

Can't speak for others, but from my perspective, the answer is this:

1. Clearly define the enemy. Is it people who are uploading content that has been duplicated over and over, or legitimate one-volume collections of a series?
2. Collaboratively determine ways these kinds of publications can be identified and limited in a manner that is cost-neutral to Amazon (otherwise they won't listen). Not others, just the ones who are offending.
3. Whatever solution presents itself, make sure it doesn't sweep up innocent parties. Prune it until it meets that criteria.
4. Make sure whatever solution we come up with actually solves the problem, and doesn't create more problems. Read: stuffers changing strategy and clogging up the charts and AMS with even more inferior titles.
5. Start a movement based on 1-4 above that everyone can get behind, and make Amazon listen.
5a. Encourage our peers to write in to make the needed changes.
5b. Encourage our fans to do the same.

We haven't even managed to agree on step 1 yet. That's where we start.

I will be happy to take a leadership role in helping to make this happen. I legitimately and sincerely care that authors in the romance genre are being hosed, and incrementally, all of us. I will dedicate time, skill, and resources to help - provided that we all agree to target the bad actors only, not legitimate artists.

Offline MmmmmPie

  • Status: Lewis Carroll
  • **
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #154 on: April 15, 2018, 04:48:12 PM »
I've said it twice already, but it looks like it needs to be said again.

1. Identify duplicate content and eliminate it from KU
2. Identify botted borrows and don't count them towards rank
3. Identify botted page reads and don't pay authors for them

This would be a lovely solution, except Amazon is supposedly already doing these things, the last two in particular. It's not working, whether because Amazon isn't trying hard enough, or because they are simply unwilling to dedicate additional resources. This is why we need a simpler solution.

Offline SeanHinn

  • Status: Lewis Carroll
  • **
  • Posts: 180
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #155 on: April 15, 2018, 04:53:11 PM »
This would be a lovely solution, except Amazon is supposedly already doing these things, the last two in particular. It's not working, whether because Amazon isn't trying hard enough, or because they are simply unwilling to dedicate additional resources. This is why we need a simpler solution.

Simpler does not equal better. I will repeat this, because I think it needs to be established as a foundation for any efforts on this front:

1. Clearly define the enemy. Is it people who are uploading content that has been duplicated over and over, or legitimate one-volume collections of a series?
2. Collaboratively determine ways these kinds of publications can be identified and limited in a manner that is cost-neutral to Amazon (otherwise they won't listen). Not others, just the ones who are offending.
3. Whatever solution presents itself, make sure it doesn't sweep up innocent parties. Prune it until it meets that criteria.
4. Make sure whatever solution we come up with actually solves the problem, and doesn't create more problems. Read: stuffers changing strategy and clogging up the charts and AMS with even more inferior titles.
5. Start a movement based on 1-4 above that everyone can get behind, and make Amazon listen.
5a. Encourage our peers to write in to make the needed changes.
5b. Encourage our fans to do the same.

We haven't even managed to agree on step 1 yet. That's where we start.

I will be happy to take a leadership role in helping to make this happen. I legitimately and sincerely care that authors in the romance genre are being hosed, and incrementally, all of us. I will dedicate time, skill, and resources to help - provided that we all agree to target the bad actors only, not legitimate artists.

Offline P.J. Post

  • Status: Arthur C Clarke
  • *****
  • Posts: 2650
  • There is no spoon.
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #156 on: April 15, 2018, 04:53:20 PM »
The last 5 pages of this thread explain in detail how lowering the KU pay-out cap will greatly reduce scamming, make it easier for Zon to spot when it does happen, and reduce the incentive for gray-hat stuff, resulting in a more level playing field. It's math.

I propose a 750 Cap, that's 160K or about 650 print pages.

Additionally, if we are serious about petitioning Zon, it has to be a single request, without any 'ands' or caveats or detailed explanations. It has to be something super simple, cheap, easy to implement and even easier to measure for effectiveness. Anything more will be a non-starter.

The proposed Cap is the only option so far suggested that might, 1) actually accomplish something, and 2) that Zon might implement (because they've done it before).

The first step is to start a dialogue, where maybe this time, they'll listen and allow us to participate in the resolution. But that can only happen if we get on the same page - which we've never been very good at in the past: Tragedy of the Commons.

The alternative to that page is to keep on throwing romance writers under the bus. How is that okay?

____

I've said it twice already, but it looks like it needs to be said again.

1. Identify duplicate content and eliminate it from KU
2. Identify botted borrows and don't count them towards rank
3. Identify botted page reads and don't pay authors for them

No, I read this, but I don't believe it to be based in reality. Zon is never going to invest the resources necessary to implement these suggestions. I mean, they already don't seem to care about duplicate content (see stuffing argument et al). And, are you sure you want Zon determining what is an isn't a botted borrow or withholding income? What does a botted page read look like to an algo?

This discussion isn't an academic one, it's not about how can Zon really fix KU, because they're not going to. It's about offering a suggestion that is more or less the investment equivalent of checking a box.


Offline JulesWright

  • Status: Madeleine L'Engle
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #157 on: April 15, 2018, 04:56:16 PM »
The argument seems to be cut the KNPC to 1/3 so their profits are slashed and that will drive them out of business.

If someone is paying for advertising they are looking for real readers.  Otherwise, they would spend their money on something else - like bots or incentivizing readers.  And if they are advertising to get readers then that's totally legitimate.

I seriously do not get this argument at all.

Offline P.J. Post

  • Status: Arthur C Clarke
  • *****
  • Posts: 2650
  • There is no spoon.
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #158 on: April 15, 2018, 05:01:56 PM »
Simpler does not equal better. I will repeat this, because I think it needs to be established as a foundation for any efforts on this front:

1. Clearly define the enemy. Is it people who are uploading content that has been duplicated over and over, or legitimate one-volume collections of a series?
2. Collaboratively determine ways these kinds of publications can be identified and limited in a manner that is cost-neutral to Amazon (otherwise they won't listen). Not others, just the ones who are offending.
3. Whatever solution presents itself, make sure it doesn't sweep up innocent parties. Prune it until it meets that criteria.
4. Make sure whatever solution we come up with actually solves the problem, and doesn't create more problems. Read: stuffers changing strategy and clogging up the charts and AMS with even more inferior titles.
5. Start a movement based on 1-4 above that everyone can get behind, and make Amazon listen.
5a. Encourage our peers to write in to make the needed changes.
5b. Encourage our fans to do the same.

We haven't even managed to agree on step 1 yet. That's where we start.

I will be happy to take a leadership role in helping to make this happen. I legitimately and sincerely care that authors in the romance genre are being hosed, and incrementally, all of us. I will dedicate time, skill, and resources to help - provided that we all agree to target the bad actors only, not legitimate artists.

See, the problem with all of this is that the enemy is, in large part, us - Indies, self publishers. We find every loophole and crack and squirm through, manipulating everything imaginable to make a few extra bucks, because it's not about Art or writing or craft, it's about the money. If the TOS doesn't forbid it, we do it, hell, even if it does forbid it, we do it anyway. We need a suggestion that address scammers AND keeps honest people honest by removing the gray/black hat incentive.

We're never going to cure disease, we have to manage the symptoms.

Offline SeanHinn

  • Status: Lewis Carroll
  • **
  • Posts: 180
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #159 on: April 15, 2018, 05:08:43 PM »
I propose a 750 Cap, that's 160K or about 650 print pages.

Any solution that penalizes legitimate authors is unacceptable, and I will personally organize a counter-movement against it. I want what you want: to eliminate abuse. I will align with you and help you make that happen (read above) and help rally people to the cause. But if your solution aims to enrich yourself at the cost of other legitimate authors, it is unsupportable, and the result here will be two competing camps, and most likely, total inaction by Amazon.

We find something we can all agree is fair to all legitimate authors, or we end up in a war that helps no one. Let's work together. This can be solved without harming people whose work is no less valuable than your own.

Offline SeanHinn

  • Status: Lewis Carroll
  • **
  • Posts: 180
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #160 on: April 15, 2018, 05:14:26 PM »
See, the problem with all of this is that the enemy is, in large part, us - Indies, self publishers. We find every loophole and crack and squirm through, manipulating everything imaginable to make a few extra bucks, because it's not about Art or writing or craft, it's about the money. If the TOS doesn't forbid it, we do it, hell, even if it does forbid it, we do it anyway. We need a suggestion that address scammers AND keeps honest people honest by removing the gray/black hat incentive.

We're never going to cure disease, we have to manage the symptoms.

Without meaning to sound harsh, speak for yourself, please. I just write books. I don't pad my page count. No one I know does, and I work intimately with many authors, day in, day out. Do you do the above things? I am sure you do not. Do you know anyone who does? I would assume if you did, you would report them.

The enemy is unscrupulous publishers. We're all very, very smart. We can come up with a way to identify them programatically. Please, don't give up on the idea of an ideal solution in favor of an easy one, especially when it will harm good and honest people.

Offline P.J. Post

  • Status: Arthur C Clarke
  • *****
  • Posts: 2650
  • There is no spoon.
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #161 on: April 15, 2018, 05:21:41 PM »
The argument seems to be cut the KNPC to 1/3 so their profits are slashed and that will drive them out of business.

If someone is paying for advertising they are looking for real readers.  Otherwise, they would spend their money on something else - like bots or incentivizing readers.  And if they are advertising to get readers then that's totally legitimate.

I seriously do not get this argument at all.

This isn't the argument at all.

I'd start by cutting the cap by 75%. It's not that their profits are slashed, it's that their ROI takes a hit. Some will move on to easier pursuits, but some won't. But now it takes 4 books to get the same return as they were getting with 1, that's a 400% increase in visibility. Multiply that by the remaining participants and it becomes untenable for Zon. It's the Al Capone strategy.

I'll let some else explain the issues with stuffing, it's in a number of threads lately, but that would obviously be greatly reduced as well.

The only negative is that folks who write super long books will take a small hit, but their hit is way way smaller than what the romance writers are dealing with.

Any solution that penalizes legitimate authors is unacceptable, and I will personally organize a counter-movement against it. I want what you want: to eliminate abuse. I will align with you and help you make that happen (read above) and help rally people to the cause. But if your solution aims to enrich yourself at the cost of other legitimate authors, it is unsupportable, and the result here will be two competing camps, and most likely, total inaction by Amazon.

We find something we can all agree is fair to all legitimate authors, or we end up in a war that helps no one. Let's work together. This can be solved without harming people whose work is no less valuable than your own.

In the meantime, Romance writers are legitimate authors.

What's your suggestion then, knowing that Zon isn't going to spend more than a nickel for any of this?

___

Without meaning to sound harsh, speak for yourself, please. I just write books. I don't pad my page count. No one I know does, and I work intimately with many authors, day in, day out. Do you do the above things? I am sure you do not. Do you know anyone who does? I would assume if you did, you would report them.

The enemy is unscrupulous publishers. We're all very, very smart. We can come up with a way to identify them programatically. Please, don't give up on the idea of an ideal solution in favor of an easy one, especially when it will harm good and honest people.

I'm not talking about Me or You or even anyone necessarily on this forum - but there's a [crap]-ton of people publishing out there and this stuff is going on, so you do the math. We're talking about a billion dollar industry with thousands and thousands of participants.

I'd love to have KU 'fixed' for realz, but that's not going to happen because that costs money, and Zon doesn't really see a problem.


Offline JulesWright

  • Status: Madeleine L'Engle
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #162 on: April 15, 2018, 05:28:22 PM »
This isn't the argument at all.

I'd start by cutting the cap by 75%. It's not that their profits are slashed, it's that their ROI takes a hit. Some will move on to easier pursuits, but some won't. But now it takes 4 books to get the same return as they were getting with 1, that's a 400% increase in visibility. Multiply that by the remaining participants and it becomes untenable for Zon. It's the Al Capone strategy.

I'll let some else explain the issues with stuffing, it's in a number of threads lately, but that would obviously be greatly reduced as well.

The only negative is that folks who write super long books will take a small hit, but their hit is way way smaller than what the romance writers are dealing with.

I thought people were concerned about illegitimate page reads. If someone advertises they are looking for readers, otherwise they wouldn't spend a lot of money on Facebook ads, AMS ads,  etc.  So no, it still doesn't make sense to me.

Offline GP Hudson

  • Status: Lewis Carroll
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #163 on: April 15, 2018, 05:33:51 PM »
I think the cap should be left at 3,000 pages. That is reasonable. A cap at 1,000 is going to get in the way of box sets and that is not something I am willing to support.


Offline JulesWright

  • Status: Madeleine L'Engle
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #164 on: April 15, 2018, 05:41:15 PM »
So, make publishing a single book and enrolling it in KU less profitable and those with the deepest pockets are the ones who are going to be pushed away?

I think black hat tactics and gray hat business models that people don't like are getting mixed up, and those with the most money are the least likely to suffer and can quickly switch over to a more volume-based model (in terms of number of books).

Black hat tactics don't rely on advertising and getting real readers.


Offline MmmmmPie

  • Status: Lewis Carroll
  • **
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #165 on: April 15, 2018, 05:41:59 PM »
I thought people were concerned about illegitimate page reads. If someone advertises they are looking for readers, otherwise they wouldn't spend a lot of money on Facebook ads, AMS ads,  etc.  So no, it still doesn't make sense to me.

These regular readers can jump around in the TOC, resulting in payment for pages that aren't actually read. Plus, these genuine borrows boost the ranks further, which brings in more borrowers, who also click around and rack up page reads in the process. Add in some botting, and the regular readers also serve as a nice camouflage for the more nefarious things these authors do to get borrows, not to mention "purchases"made possible only through gift cards. Also, because many of these stories are duplicates of previously published stories, they're getting paid multiple times for the same work.

If you write long, continuous stories, it might be hard to imagine the many ways they can arrange 3,000 pages to result in fraudulent page reads, duplicate page reads, page reads for skipped pages, etc.  But they're using this as a convenient way to claim money, bonuses and visibility that they didn't earn.

Online Phxsundog

  • Status: Dr. Seuss
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #166 on: April 15, 2018, 05:44:51 PM »
This group is not legitimate and there's mountains of evidence to support it. In short, they're caught constantly doing things no author would ever try, much less get away with. That's because this is a group of abusive internet marketers. Not authors. I'll list a few examples below.

A few months ago this group was caught running tons of stolen images as Facebook ads. They simply ripped off fitness images from photographers and even used a couple's a private engagement photos without their consent to promote their crappy books. They were called out repeatedly and it took weeks for the ad manager they use to finally stop running the stolen images.

Ghostwriting is always walking a grey line, sure. In some cases it's perfectly fine. However I consider the bottom of the barrel rates this group is paying exploitation. Paying $0.01 per word results in material that's qualitatively worse than the average romance author. Some ghosts working for such low rates take shortcuts and plaigarize content from other authors. Their books have been caught several times ripping off others. The authors  affected don't want the expense and hassle of enforcing their copyright so it hasn't burned them to date. This is a race to the bottom and tidal wave of crap that's crushing solo romance authors.

Their ARC teams stack up more five star reviews than any other run by normal authors. There's a reason for this. The blackhats harshly govern these teams and pressure reviewers to leave five stars. Many who leave less than four are removed. Some of these reviewers are also incentivized to upvote five star reviews with giveaways. I've never heard of an ordinary author who treats their own reviewers this aggressively.

Then they have deceptive email marketing practices. Many of these marketer pen names spam daily, include fake mailing addresses for Canspam if there's one listed at all, and run giveaways for clicks in their newsletters. They promise instant gift cards if you'll just click their book. There's never any way to verify winners or whether these giveaways are real. Worse, they put something like FREE BOOKS/FREEBIES in almost every single subject line. More than half the time, the "free books" they're constantly announcing only refer to the bonus books stuffed inside their new releases.

No proof they use click farms but it can't be ruled out either. Many of their books were rank stripped last summer during the crackdown. With so many ads and huge email lists running, what wonderful cover to hide bots for higher ranks and more pages.

Their bonus techniques have already been discussed in the book stuffing thread. These are the same guys who used click to the end tricks last year to get page reads. They hide their bonus books constantly. They still put exclusive stories behind other bonus books.

I could go on at length. It isn't until you dig into them that you begin to realize how weird,  blackhat, and deceptive this group really is. They're internet marketers. Not authors. I'll keep saying it because the difference between the two is the root of what's soured KU across the board.

One thing they do right that is legitimate is building a massive email network. Most of them have 50-100k subscribers on each list. Mostly scraped from giveaways over the past year and sometimes illegally shared among them to make their lists even bigger. This huge email network is what allows them to bury most authors and hit the Top 100 constantly besides their ad spends.

I think you can point to a lot of things with a sideways glance. When you put it all together, a long pattern of dirty tricks, abusive marketing, and exploitation emerges. In the end it comes down to one thing: blackhat internet marketers and not authors are controlling Kindle Unlimited romance. How is any romance author losing money hand over fist to these scammers supposed to be okay with this?

If that isn't a broken system then I don't know what is.

Offline JulesWright

  • Status: Madeleine L'Engle
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #167 on: April 15, 2018, 05:45:51 PM »
I agree multiple things can be going on, but if I was using advertising as a cover and somehow it became less profitable to advertise then I would just switch over to more black hat tactics and less advertising.


These regular readers can jump around in the TOC, resulting in payment for pages that aren't actually read. Plus, these genuine borrows boost the ranks further, which brings in more borrowers, who also click around and rack up page reads in the process. Add in some botting, and the regular readers also serve as a nice camouflage for the more nefarious things these authors do to get borrows, not to mention "purchases"made possible only through gift cards. Also, because many of these stories are duplicates of previously published stories, they're getting paid multiple times for the same work.

If you write long, continuous stories, it might be hard to imagine the many ways they can arrange 3,000 pages to result in fraudulent page reads, duplicate page reads, page reads for skipped pages, etc.  But they're using this as a convenient way to claim money, bonuses and visibility that they didn't earn.

Offline Puddleduck

  • Status: Arthur Conan Doyle
  • ****
  • Posts: 820
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #168 on: April 15, 2018, 05:57:09 PM »
I think 1,000 or even 750 sounds reasonable. Yes, it would exclude boxed sets and a certain number of epic fantasy stories, but I think it would end up with the vast majority of legitimate authors/books on one side of that line and the vast majority of scammers on the other. It's not a perfect solution, but (short of eliminating KU entirely), I doubt there is a perfect solution. I also like that "Please cut page read payouts to XXX pages per book" is simple, direct, and easy to understand (and easy for Amazon to implement, should they choose to). That makes it easy for many authors to ask for the same thing without confusion or mixed messages. That's good, when you're trying to get a single message across with many voices.

Offline MmmmmPie

  • Status: Lewis Carroll
  • **
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #169 on: April 15, 2018, 05:58:04 PM »
I agree multiple things can be going on, but if I was using advertising as a cover and somehow it became less profitable to advertise then I would just switch over to more black hat tactics and less advertising.

Maybe. But those things are riskier. Without the flood of advertising that persuades genuine readers to buy/borrow/click on their books, their scamming becomes even more obvious. These guys aren't like us. They don't love books or their readers. They love a quick buck. Once the loopholes are eliminated, these scammers will move on to greener pastures.

Offline JulesWright

  • Status: Madeleine L'Engle
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #170 on: April 15, 2018, 06:03:27 PM »
I honestly don't think it would slow them down much.  Based on Phxsundog's post they have massive email lists and many other things to work with. 

I just really don't think it's a good solution at all, but I think my solution is to keep my books out of KU, whether the max is 1,000 or 3,000 KENPC.  I don't like the letters people are getting. I don't know what solution Amazon will come up with, but I do believe there will be more crackdowns in the future and unfortunately, sometimes legit authors do lose their accounts in the process. I think I'd rather stay out of it, but I do hope KU gets better for all legit authors.

Maybe. But those things are riskier. Without the flood of advertising that persuades genuine readers to buy/borrow/click on their books, their scamming becomes even more obvious. These guys aren't like us. They don't love books or their readers. They love a quick buck. Once the loopholes are eliminated, these scammers will move on to greener pastures.

Online Dpock

  • Status: Arthur Conan Doyle
  • ****
  • Posts: 529
  • Gender: Male
  • North Idaho
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #171 on: April 15, 2018, 06:11:52 PM »
Does this board have an easy poll function? It'd be interesting to see how the various solutions being kicked around here are supported by the board (or at least those who bother to vote).


Offline David VanDyke

  • Status: Scheherazade
  • *****
  • Posts: 1634
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #172 on: April 15, 2018, 06:31:56 PM »
Any solution that penalizes legitimate authors is unacceptable, and I will personally organize a counter-movement against it. I want what you want: to eliminate abuse. I will align with you and help you make that happen (read above) and help rally people to the cause. But if your solution aims to enrich yourself at the cost of other legitimate authors, it is unsupportable, and the result here will be two competing camps, and most likely, total inaction by Amazon.

We find something we can all agree is fair to all legitimate authors, or we end up in a war that helps no one. Let's work together. This can be solved without harming people whose work is no less valuable than your own.

In other words, "I'll go to war first, but claim you started it. Because it's my way or the highway."

A war metaphor? Over this? Among authors? Come on.

SMH.



Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca


« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 08:19:40 PM by Becca Mills »


Futuristic Thrillers, Mysteries and Science Fiction
David VanDyke | Blog | Website | Facebook | Twitter | Contact

Offline SeanHinn

  • Status: Lewis Carroll
  • **
  • Posts: 180
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #173 on: April 15, 2018, 07:15:56 PM »
In other words, "I'll go to war first, but claim you started it. Because it's my way or the highway."

A war metaphor? Over this? Among authors? Come on.

SMH.



Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca

David I am not saying, "it's my way or the highway." I'm saying that the way proposed here is not only patently unfair, it would very likely be ineffective - so let's all together come up with a better way. I have ideas on this, but by no means are they the only possible ideas. And yes, the result of a campaign that victimizes people who are not the cause of the problem *will* result in a war, because who's gonna just say, "hey, that's cool that my income just got slashed, I'll just sell the house!" By "war," do I mean causing others physical injury? Come on. You're a writer, the context of what I said surely cannot be lost on you. This solution will pit authors against one another, when we *should* be joining forces to solve the problem in a way that harms no innocent party.

A series of questions, for you and others to consider:

1. Would a 1k KENP cap encourage bad actors to A) give up and go home or B) adapt?
2. If they were to adapt, would they do so by A) publishing more titles or B) publishing fewer titles?
3. Would more titles in the affected charts A) help legitimate authors or B) harm legitimate authors?
4. Would more titles buying separate AMS ads A) make it easier for indie advertisers to be visible or B) make it harder for indie advertisers to be visible?

Forget the fairness of it, if you like. It would not stop the problem, and it would not make life better for those most affected. It *would* harm innocent parties, though.

The options are not "do this" or "do nothing." "Do something fair and effective" is still an option.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 08:20:26 PM by Becca Mills »

Offline Atlantisatheart

  • Status: Jane Austen
  • ***
  • Posts: 415
    • View Profile
Re: Lowering the KNEP Cap from 3000 to 1000 Pages
« Reply #174 on: April 15, 2018, 07:32:57 PM »
This sounds so familiar. I remember the same type of arguments between the novel and novella writers in KU1, and look how that turned out. Novels won and a lot of novella writers went to the wall. The novel writers didn't care because they got richer on the backs of others.

If you want to petition amazon to do anything, why not try the basics first? No bonus books. Why turn on each other again?