Poll

To fight scammers, should we petition Amazon to limit the KU payout to:

750 KENPC
11 (10.8%)
1000 KENPC
35 (34.3%)
We should not petition Amazon to lower the payout cap
56 (54.9%)

Total Members Voted: 101

Author Topic: Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded) + petition  (Read 1988 times)  

Offline Reformed Pantser

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded) + petition
« on: April 16, 2018, 09:16:49 AM »
I believe this wording is much less judgment-laden than SeanHinn's poll.

ETA: Original thread: https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,262533.0.html.

>>> The poll was edited 4/17/2018, taking into account the comments in this thread. It no longer has an option for a single genre (Romance).

- 4 kboarders who voted "500 KENPC in Romance" -- we lost your votes. I'm very sorry! Do you mind voting again?
- 4 kboarders who voted "750 KENPC in Romance" -- your vote now applies to all genres. If you are not comfortable with that, you can remove or change your vote

ETA 2: Petition link: https://www.gopetition.com/petitions/lower-kindle-unlimited-payout-to-1000-kenp.html
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 06:32:22 AM by Reformed Pantser »

Offline joesmithx

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2018, 09:39:14 AM »
LOL You people. Some times I'm glad Amazon ignores indie authors.

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2018, 09:58:12 AM »
Add "Limit Bonus Content To No More than 50% Of Titled Content".

(Arguments against only suggest Amazon would never hire manpower to enforce it. This ignores the fact that most of Amazon's TOS is meant to be self-policing by the authors themselves (at risk of losing their accounts). Yes, Amazon monitors compliance in various ways (human and machine), but I'm positive (though can't possibly know for sure) that they rely heavily on complaints from customers and authors to catch the bad guys. It doesn't mean they'll always respond, or in a manner that pleases us.)


Offline Reformed Pantser

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2018, 10:14:17 AM »
Add "Limit Bonus Content To No More than 50% Of Titled Content".

(Arguments against only suggest Amazon would never hire manpower to enforce it. This ignores the fact that most of Amazon's TOS is meant to be self-policing by the authors themselves (at risk of losing their accounts). Yes, Amazon monitors compliance in various ways (human and machine), but I'm positive (though can't possibly know for sure) that they rely heavily on complaints from customers and authors to catch the bad guys. It doesn't mean they'll always respond, or in a manner that pleases us.)

That's an excellent suggestion, but we've been bombarding KDP and Jeff Bezos with ideas like that for over a year now. David Gaughran and others have been talking to reps and execs... It's clear that Amazon won't implement anything that involves hiring additional manpower. There are at least 2 super-long threads here on kboards with lists of great solutions we've proposed. And... crickets.

Offline MmmmmPie

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2018, 10:23:36 AM »
Speaking as a romance writer, I voted for this one: 1000 KENPC for all genres.

However, I would personally benefit most from the option of capping romance books at 500 KENPC, because it would clean up Amazon's romance pages/lists/problems practically overnight.

Online Dpock

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2018, 10:59:40 AM »
It's clear that Amazon won't implement anything that involves hiring additional manpower.

It's not clear, but possibly also not necessary. The same Amazon folks on the receiving end of the "Report This Book" button can handle it. If a book ends below 50%, pull it, or send a notice.

But first, Amazon must decide whether bonus stuffing is even a problem. So far they seem fine with it.


Online Dragovian

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2018, 11:12:01 AM »
You can lower the KENPC as far as you want, but it won't deter the true black hats, because the real problem isn't stuffing. It's the other tactics used to guarantee full read-throughs, whether those tactics are bots, incentivized page reads, or the click-to-back scams (which may or may not still be workable). Lowering KENPC might be the easy bandaid solution that Amazon already tried, but if you lower the maximum payout to 100 KENPC the black hats are just going to respond with a bunch of 99 KENPC books and set their bots to read them. The marketers who are being lumped in with the black hats will be hurt, but this won't actually solve the problem.


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Offline Avis Black

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2018, 12:19:00 PM »
I wonder why people think short doesn't work very well in romance.  Harlequin built a massive business just on short romance books and made a mint.


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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2018, 03:25:47 PM »
I wonder why people think short doesn't work very well in romance.  Harlequin built a massive business just on short romance books and made a mint.

Not sure how that relates to the thread but indeed, shorter books in romance, particularly New Adult and Romantic Comedy, are novellas (with three or four bonus novellas attached! The current #1 in NA is one, weighing in at #17 storewide. It ends at 28% in your Kindle.).


Offline Crystal_

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2018, 05:46:14 PM »
I think 750 is a bit short for too many authors (not in romance, but in general). IMO, 1k is just right. Though I would personally benefit from 750 as a cap as my longest book is under 700 KENPC.

Offline levolal

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2018, 05:57:37 PM »
It's not clear, but possibly also not necessary. The same Amazon folks on the receiving end of the "Report This Book" button can handle it. If a book ends below 50%, pull it, or send a notice.

But first, Amazon must decide whether bonus stuffing is even a problem. So far they seem fine with it.

This was a thing once, and ended with hundreds of LGBTQ books deranked by a report-bot. You can't outgame the people trying to game the system. Ban books being read by a kindle bot? Sounds like a good way to get fake page-reads pointed at an account.

"Ban all your competitors! 2000 pagereads per hour until the deed is done"

Offline Going Incognito

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2018, 06:49:44 PM »
Y'all are so cute thinking Amazon cares what you petition.

Online Dpock

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2018, 06:56:12 PM »
This was a thing once, and ended with hundreds of LGBTQ books deranked by a report-bot. You can't outgame the people trying to game the system. Ban books being read by a kindle bot? Sounds like a good way to get fake page-reads pointed at an account.

"Ban all your competitors! 2000 pagereads per hour until the deed is done"

By Kindle bot, you mean a bot manipulating page reads? I see the bot question as a separate issue. A miscreant uploading 3000 KENP pages of nonsense so its bot can manipulate page reads will just upload three 1000 KENP pages if that's the new cap. They don't care about caps, other than viewing them as targets and thresholds. If the cap is lowered to 100 KENP they'll still be operating.

Book stuffing (bonus books) is a problem with or without bots. People here are discussing caps to counteract stuffing and/or bots. There is no way to destroy the bots, as they are ever-evolving. Let's assume Amazon will get better at dealing with them, knowing from time to time there will be collateral damage. For all we know, they're destroying several bots a day as it is. Tomorrow there will be more.

There's no "magical cap" that will fix the bot issue. Since we can't all agree on that I suppose we just have to agree to disagree, etc.

This other issue, stuffing books with bonus content, is not an issue with Amazon (apparently) but it is for some authors. How non-stuffers are harmed is debatable. I do see the pressure it puts on price points (because book stuffers don't care about retail prices if they can make a killing in KENP). Also, due to the limited real estate, the stuffer's greed is pushing them into category gaming to hit Top Lists and this, along with pricing pressures, is a growing problem in most genres. This is why I think bonus content should not exceed 50% of the titled content. It would take the pressure off pricing and limit the return for stuffers generally. Amazon only has to put it in their TOS. They don't need to hire an army to enforce it (that's what we do).

We've all seen the book reviews with statements like "This book ended at 20%. Don't buy this book". That suggests a poor reading experience. That's the angle that needs to be pressed upon Amazon. Excessive book stuffing results in disgruntled customers and should be stopped. The customers that view stuffed book in the same way they view a 60oz Coke will be unhappy, but who the hell knows why? If they have a KU subscription, they can already read all they want. If they don't have a KU subscription and depend on stuffed books for their happiness, they'll just have to buy a subscription when those stuffed books disappear.


Offline writerlygal

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2018, 08:06:05 PM »
I wonder why people think short doesn't work very well in romance.  Harlequin built a massive business just on short romance books and made a mint.

I think it does work well & that many romance novels are shorter than in other genres. As a reader I enjoy a good quickie.

Offline writerlygal

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2018, 08:09:18 PM »
Not sure how this poll is worded 'neutrally' when it singles out an entire genre.  :-X

Offline Crystal_

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2018, 08:11:39 PM »
Y'all are so cute thinking Amazon cares what you petition.

The condescending tone is both rude and unnecessary

Offline TimothyEllis

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2018, 09:18:01 PM »
This isn't any better than the last poll.

Remove the Romance limitation off all the options, and just seek a single cap for everyone.

I'd vote for 750, but I'm not touching a vote which only puts it on a single genre.



Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 09:37:14 PM by Becca Mills »

Offline Reformed Pantser

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2018, 11:11:58 PM »
This isn't any better than the last poll.

Remove the Romance limitation off all the options, and just seek a single cap for everyone.

I'd vote for 750, but I'm not touching a vote which only puts it on a single genre.

Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca

I'd singled out Romance because the poll was based on the suggestions made in the original thread (cap all, cap romance only, cap nothing). But, in light of the arguments here, I edited the poll.

* IMPORTANT*
- 4 kboarders who voted "500 KENPC in Romance" -- we lost your votes. I'm sorry. Do you mind voting again?
- 4 kboarders who voted "750 KENPC in Romance" -- your vote now applies to all genres. If you are not comfortable with that, you can remove or change your vote

Offline dgaughran

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2018, 02:09:17 AM »
You can lower the KENPC as far as you want, but it won't deter the true black hats, because the real problem isn't stuffing. It's the other tactics used to guarantee full read-throughs, whether those tactics are bots, incentivized page reads, or the click-to-back scams (which may or may not still be workable). Lowering KENPC might be the easy bandaid solution that Amazon already tried, but if you lower the maximum payout to 100 KENPC the black hats are just going to respond with a bunch of 99 KENPC books and set their bots to read them. The marketers who are being lumped in with the black hats will be hurt, but this won't actually solve the problem.

Yup. The cheaters will just find another whole in the fence. IMO these solutions just encourage Amazon to continue to adopt a hands-off approach, which is a big part of the problem.
Stuff for writers thisaway

Offline Concerned writer

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2018, 02:21:28 AM »
Yup. The cheaters will just find another whole in the fence. IMO these solutions just encourage Amazon to continue to adopt a hands-off approach, which is a big part of the problem.

I agree, but being hands off is Amazon's business model and isn't likely to change.

Offline jb1111

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2018, 09:59:29 AM »
LOL You people. Some times I'm glad Amazon ignores indie authors.

You may be right in that they ignore indie authors. Indie authors are a minor portion of their revenues.

But indie authors still make them a chunk of money. I myself made them several thousand dollars last year. And I am one of the bottom feeders when it comes to sales.

Multiply guys like me by a hundred thousand. Then do the math.

Offline Anarchist

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2018, 10:16:32 AM »
You may be right in that they ignore indie authors. Indie authors are a minor portion of their revenues.

But indie authors still make them a chunk of money.

My perspective is that indie authors don't make Amazon money. Customers make Amazon money.

There will never be a shortage of books to sell. But owning a customer's headspace... that's the path to retail domination.

Indie authors complaining about stuffing...





Customers complaining about stuffing...





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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2018, 11:00:06 AM »
Customers complaining about stuffing...



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Offline Lefevre

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2018, 11:44:38 AM »
Abolish KENP. "Customers" should buy books.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 11:49:26 AM by Lefevre »
Lefevre

Online Dpock

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Re: KU capping poll #2 (neutrally worded)
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2018, 11:55:57 AM »
Abolish KENP. People should buy books.

There's no guarantee they would. If Netflix and other subscription sites disappeared people might just watch less TV rather than rent more videos or buy cable. You never know. As it goes for books, I suspect KU has created a market, not tapped into one.

It could even be theorized that KU has created more book buyers, not fewer, as KU readers developer a broader habit.


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