Author Topic: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?  (Read 1906 times)  

Offline Rob Martin

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2018, 05:52:27 AM »
While editing, hypotaxis. Though honestly, while writing, I tend to use both.

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2018, 06:03:45 AM »
I've never heard of these terms. I'm fascinated, and also have no idea which i employ with regularity. I intermingle short sentences with long sentences to establish mood and pace. I will write extremely lengthy sentences for effect, and short, choppy sentences in tense situations. Beyond that, I have't given it a thought. That said, if you asked me to diagram a sentence to save my life, I would die.

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2018, 06:24:16 AM »
I didn't know the terms, but I do think about things like this when I write. But in the end, I am with the group who are most focused on the way the sentences and paragraphs flow together, along with the type of mood conveyed. I actually will convert my late draft to an e-version and read it on my Kindle or iPad, specifically looking for spots that don't "sound" right to my ear.

I think there's a misconception that shorter and simpler sentences are easy to write; I've seen writers try to emulate Hemingway with cringeworthy results. To achieve his spare style, I think he likely edited every word to within an inch of it's life.

Offline katherinef

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2018, 06:48:57 AM »
Mostly hypotaxis, but in some situations parataxis fits better. As for Cormac McCarthy, the only thing that kept me going through one of his books was my desire to see all the characters die a painful death. Although, I found the story more annoying than his style. If the story is good and readable, I don't care much about the style.
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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2018, 07:56:36 AM »
Am I the only one who saw the thread title and thought these were medical conditions? 

Just me, then ...

Fascinating discussion, thank you kw3000 for starting it and for such a detailed opening post.

I prefer a mix in both my writing and my reading - constant short, choppy sentences get very staccato after a while, and if there are too many long, flowery sentences you forget what the heck the subject was.  Or perhaps that's just me, again.  ;D

Offline Colin

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2018, 08:16:57 AM »
Am I the only one who saw the thread title and thought these were medical conditions? 
Yes. You are unique. Or you could be suffering from Hypotaxis. In case you were wondering, Parataxis usually only effects those over the age of 95 who drink 18-20 bottles of wine a day.

:)

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2018, 11:50:37 AM »
Am I the only one who saw the thread title and thought these were medical conditions? 

Just me, then ...

Fascinating discussion, thank you kw3000 for starting it and for such a detailed opening post.

I prefer a mix in both my writing and my reading - constant short, choppy sentences get very staccato after a while, and if there are too many long, flowery sentences you forget what the heck the subject was.  Or perhaps that's just me, again.  ;D

This makes me think of NCIS in one episode the main character talked in staccato it was hysterical

The.Next.Time.You.See.Me.You.Will.Know.That.You.Are.Safe.

I have never laughed and cried so hard at the stupidity of a scene before.

I haven't ever seen it used successfully, but I am sure it can be done.

Offline Becca Mills

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2018, 01:42:08 PM »
I like short sentences. Simple sentences. Shorter paragraphs and chapters.

When I polled my readers, I found a sizable percentage of them read my books on their phones, and those that do dislike large, blocky chunks of print.

One of the first things I do on every MS is go through and look for sentences of more than 20 words. I certainly don't take them all out, but I try to simplify as many as I can. I usually average an 82 or so on the Fleisch Readability Scale, which is a sweet spot for me.

I'm hitting about the same spot, of late:



But actively trying to avoid subordinating structures could push average sentence length well below nine words, I think, as sentences like After John left, I sat down to think. become John left. I sat down to think. Not sure I want to go there.

Offline kw3000

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2018, 01:45:04 PM »
This.  It's about flow, about what sounds right.  Not run-on sentences, or sentence which jump around from one topic to another: "He ate the last of the eggs and wiped the plate with the tortilla and ate the tortilla and drank the last of the coffee and wiped his mouth and looked up and thanked her."  Let's face it, if a Kboards newbie posted a sentence like that from his/her first book, everyone would urge a re-write, because it's not a good sentence.

What sounds 'right' being subjective, I quite like McCarthy's turn of phrase in that example and in the general sense. I have read a few of his works now, but I still remember the first time I'd cracked open 'All the Pretty Horses' and I was just blown away. I would like to think if I were confronted with that sentence above written by an unknown I'd be every bit as awed.

Slightly off topic but I'd hate to see anyone put off by the McCarthy quote. He's my favourite author so allow for some bias in my comments. When I first came across McCarthy (The Border Trilogy), I almost quit at page 6 because of the style outlined above. But as I read on, I realised he was weaving a tapestry that simply couldn't be judged by a tiny illustrated part. His poetic style draws you into the book ever bit as much as the story itself does. Give him a try. And persevere.

I am biased as well given my preference for paratactic style. I have heard people balk at McCarthy's approach when they first tackle 'The Road', but I found the entire work affecting. Perhaps his style plays better if taken as a whole as opposed to in snippets.

There's nothing wrong with this. In fact, one of the things I've found most frustrating and just plain weird about the self pub community is how little people seem to talk about the craft of writing. Some don't even care at all. As long as they're selling they DGAD, and when they're not they try to fix covers and blurbs and all the wrapping paper without stopping to consider their prose is the culprit. That's so ... intellectually incurious.

For the record, I lean more toward hypotaxis in my prose. As a reader ... a mixture of both?

Agreed. I would enjoy even more craft discussion in the Writers Cafe. I find it helpful and fascinating. At the same time, I don't want to annoy my fellow kboarders by continually posting craft threads if it's something they find irksome.

I've never heard of these terms. I'm fascinated, and also have no idea which i employ with regularity. I intermingle short sentences with long sentences to establish mood and pace. I will write extremely lengthy sentences for effect, and short, choppy sentences in tense situations. Beyond that, I have't given it a thought. That said, if you asked me to diagram a sentence to save my life, I would die.

I have often read that one should vary sentence length for maximum readability and that's something I've tried to do through the years, but I do tire of it, for whatever reason. I suppose I shouldn't question the advice, but I do find myself rebelling against it more and more as I get older. Instead of stubbornness, I prefer to think of it as growth.  ;D

Your mentioning of extremely lengthy sentences reminds me of David Foster Wallace's prose. It can be pretty jarring to go from reading Wallace's paragraph-length run-ons in 'Infinite Jest' to Hemingway's meat and potatoes in 'The Old Man and the Sea'. As much as I appreciated certain passages and the humor that runs through IJ, I much prefer Hemingway's style. I'm stating the obvious there, I realize, given the thrust of this thread.

I should point out though, I have no problem with extremely lengthy sentences. Many of Wallace's are works of art unto themselves, it takes a lot of talent to employ them effectively. It's a talent I do not possess.

I didn't know the terms, but I do think about things like this when I write. But in the end, I am with the group who are most focused on the way the sentences and paragraphs flow together, along with the type of mood conveyed. I actually will convert my late draft to an e-version and read it on my Kindle or iPad, specifically looking for spots that don't "sound" right to my ear.

I think there's a misconception that shorter and simpler sentences are easy to write; I've seen writers try to emulate Hemingway with cringeworthy results. To achieve his spare style, I think he likely edited every word to within an inch of it's life.


I can attest that shorter and simpler does not equate to easier. A lot of my work is pretty high on the cringe-o-meter. I'll keep trying though.  :)

As for Cormac McCarthy, the only thing that kept me going through one of his books was my desire to see all the characters die a painful death.

LOL!  Not the first time I've heard that. :)

Am I the only one who saw the thread title and thought these were medical conditions? 

Just me, then ...

Fascinating discussion, thank you kw3000 for starting it and for such a detailed opening post.

I prefer a mix in both my writing and my reading - constant short, choppy sentences get very staccato after a while, and if there are too many long, flowery sentences you forget what the heck the subject was.  Or perhaps that's just me, again.  ;D

Hey, no problem. Glad to know there's others out there who find the subject interesting. Had a good chuckle about the medical condition thing.

In terms of writing and reading. I hear you about the staccato nature of a paratactic approach, though I will say that I find the staccato lends something to the experience more than it takes away for me. It's a stylistic choice that I think really adds to the story and my enjoyment.

I liken story to a stretch of road the author has laid out and the road has specific characteristics chosen by its engineer. The intent in building that road, as opposed (usually) to the building of actual roads where efficiency and safety are of paramount concern, is to take you somewhere the author/engineer wants you to go, but also in a manner of the engineer's choosing. Kind of like how a rollercoaster designer has a specific experience in mind for riders when they're thinking about the design.

Perhaps given the context of the scene or the manner in which the author means to convey 'x', said author wants the reader to traverse a bumpy road, thus the usefulness of staccato that often accompanies the paratactic approach.

You (general you, not "you" you) want to take the reader on a journey and/or provide them with an experience. A road trip involving diverse terrain be it cobblestones, gravel, moguls, streams, or ice might provide more of an experience than say 200 pages of smooth asphalt.

Am I conveying this in a way that makes sense? It's easy to get lost in ones own mind, as least it is for me. But, I suppose my point is I find shorter and sometimes choppier sentences in sequence can provide an enriching journey all their own. They can be the loop-de-loops in the rollercoaster or the terrifying Class 6 rapids in the river or the undulating bumps in the road that leave you breathless and feeling as though you'd really just gone through something. Quite a goal to strive toward.  8)

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2018, 01:58:11 PM »
The Road is an interesting read. No quote marks, anywhere, where people are speaking.
It is the only one of McCarthy's books I've read and I have to say it will probably be the only one I ever do. Maybe it's the traditionalist in me but I found the lack of standard punctuation really distracting and it made the book extremely tedious for me.
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Offline OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2018, 06:40:05 PM »
This drives me nuts. I don't seem to notice meter when I'm reading other writers' prose (poetry excluded), but I can't get it out of my head when I'm writing. And just like you said, I end up with a lot of sentences that share the same structure. It's a curse I can't seem to rid myself of. If anyone knows of a cure for this malady, please feel free to post it here.  :)

I use ProWritingAid. It has a report that will show you the sentences and number of words, giving you both the number of times you used the same number and a graph to show the up's and downs.
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Offline OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2018, 06:46:59 PM »
There's nothing wrong with this. In fact, one of the things I've found most frustrating and just plain weird about the self pub community is how little people seem to talk about the craft of writing. Some don't even care at all. As long as they're selling they DGAD, and when they're not they try to fix covers and blurbs and all the wrapping paper without stopping to consider their prose is the culprit. That's so ... intellectually incurious.

For the record, I lean more toward hypotaxis in my prose. As a reader ... a mixture of both?

I love words, the craft of putting them together and the magic that is in the greatest thing man has created. Knowing the art of the word is like seeing a master conjurer for the first time ... simply beautiful. Words are love and hate, they stir the soul and move the world, they've soothed the evil's of heart break and make life worth living. Who hasn't read a poem and come to tears at the aching truth that suddenly pierces the soul? Who hasn't paused in the middle of a story to marvel at the beauty of a sentence or the raw truth that was laid bleeding before your eyes?

Knowing the craft teaches you how to do this not by chance but by design. The learned are masters of the word. A mastership that I envy. As for the question, well I think I've answered that.  ;D
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Offline tdecastro31

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2018, 07:34:25 PM »
It is the only one of McCarthy's books I've read and I have to say it will probably be the only one I ever do. Maybe it's the traditionalist in me but I found the lack of standard punctuation really distracting and it made the book extremely tedious for me.

Another one of my favorites.

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2018, 01:34:36 AM »
 I don't have any particular style but I do enjoy playing with words and seeing how scenes 'play' through a simple word change or two and so will possibly use both methods in a chapter without any real thought.


 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 01:55:12 AM by Bristle »
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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2018, 01:49:59 AM »
This makes me think of NCIS in one episode the main character talked in staccato it was hysterical

The.Next.Time.You.See.Me.You.Will.Know.That.You.Are.Safe.

I have never laughed and cried so hard at the stupidity of a scene before.

I haven't ever seen it used successfully, but I am sure it can be done.

A show beloved by so many, but so, so much potential for ridicule.

Yes. You are unique. Or you could be suffering from Hypotaxis. In case you were wondering, Parataxis usually only effects those over the age of 95 who drink 18-20 bottles of wine a day.

:)

Phew - I was worried there for a moment.  :D


In terms of writing and reading. I hear you about the staccato nature of a paratactic approach, though I will say that I find the staccato lends something to the experience more than it takes away for me. It's a stylistic choice that I think really adds to the story and my enjoyment.

I liken story to a stretch of road the author has laid out and the road has specific characteristics chosen by its engineer. The intent in building that road, as opposed (usually) to the building of actual roads where efficiency and safety are of paramount concern, is to take you somewhere the author/engineer wants you to go, but also in a manner of the engineer's choosing. Kind of like how a rollercoaster designer has a specific experience in mind for riders when they're thinking about the design.

Perhaps given the context of the scene or the manner in which the author means to convey 'x', said author wants the reader to traverse a bumpy road, thus the usefulness of staccato that often accompanies the paratactic approach.

You (general you, not "you" you) want to take the reader on a journey and/or provide them with an experience. A road trip involving diverse terrain be it cobblestones, gravel, moguls, streams, or ice might provide more of an experience than say 200 pages of smooth asphalt.

Am I conveying this in a way that makes sense? It's easy to get lost in ones own mind, as least it is for me. But, I suppose my point is I find shorter and sometimes choppier sentences in sequence can provide an enriching journey all their own. They can be the loop-de-loops in the rollercoaster or the terrifying Class 6 rapids in the river or the undulating bumps in the road that leave you breathless and feeling as though you'd really just gone through something. Quite a goal to strive toward.  8)

Nice analogy.  I do like a good analogy. 

I've driven on way too many badly maintained roads to want a constantly bumpy ride - don't mind a bit of cobbles now and then, or going off road onto dirt tracks for some adventure, but for the most part, a smooth, well-maintained stretch of tarmac generally gets my vote.  ;D

(I am of course a sample of one, and if nothing else, threads like this prove that we all have different opinions and preferences, and if you widen that out to the pool of readers in the world, we should all be able to find readers that like our particular styles.)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 01:56:37 AM by VanessaC »

Offline Jack Krenneck

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2018, 02:21:45 AM »
I wasn't familiar with those terms. But here are a few highly personal opinions.

...wikipedia's definition for parataxis:

"a literary technique, in writing or speaking, that favors short, simple sentences, with the use of coordinating rather than subordinating conjunctions."

There are obvious benefits of short and simple sentences. Not least that they give clarity and can carry great power. But, I fail to see any gain or purpose in favoring coordinating over subordinating conjunctions. It's not natural. Perhaps there are reasons in a short paragraph. As a writing style for extended use? Disastrous.


"He ate the last of the eggs and wiped the plate with the tortilla and ate the tortilla and drank the last of the coffee and wiped his mouth and looked up and thanked her."

To me, this is gibberish. What sort of egomaniac would inflict this on the world?


"Manuel drank his brandy. He felt sleepy himself. It was too hot to go out into the town. Besides there was nothing to do. He wanted to see Zurito. He would go to sleep while he waited."

Gibberish again.


"The steer was down now, his neck stretched out, his head twisted, he lay the way he had fallen."

I would be tempted to think the author had potential.


"After the lions had returned to their cages, creeping angrily through the chutes, a little bunch of us drifted away and into an open doorway nearby, where we stood for a while in semi-darkness watching a big brown circus horse go harumphing around the practice ring..."

Not gibberish. Not good either.

"In later years, particularly when it began to be clear that this 'education' of mine was going to lead me to perdition, he...warned me that my white friends in high school were not really my friends and that I would see, when I was older, how white people would do anything to keep a [person of color] down. Some of them could be nice, he admitted, but none of them were to be trusted and most of them were not even nice. The best thing was to have as little to do with them as possible. I did not feel this way and I was certain, in my innocence, that I never would."

Not gibberish. But boring as all hell.

"After losing [his shoes], he ran on four legs and went faster, so that I think he might have got away altogether if he had not unfortunately run into a gooseberry net, and got caught by the large buttons on his jacket."

Acceptable.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 02:25:09 AM by Jack Krenneck »

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2018, 04:34:05 AM »
Put me down on the list of those who didn't know these had actual names.

I use them, sometimes on accident and like how they sound, sometimes on purpose because I like how they flow. Depends on what the scene needs at the time. I appreciate the cleanliness that Hemingway presents, I like the flow that McCarthy presents.

Agreed. I would enjoy even more craft discussion in the Writers Cafe. I find it helpful and fascinating. At the same time, I don't want to annoy my fellow kboarders by continually posting craft threads if it's something they find irksome.

This makes me sad. This board is huge. We have threads out the butt that complain about amazon or what some writer's doing this week, or cover threads or blurb threads or what's new in self publishing news threads... and people don't have an issue of skipping over those if it doesn't suit them to participate.

But let one craft thread pop up with an interesting discussion and now it's a burden on the community and a waste of time?


 ::)

I'm glad you started the thread. I learned something new. It has value for me. Value is why I'm here.

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2018, 05:52:31 AM »
Interesting discussion. I'd never heard of the terms before today.

I write YA historical fiction (Romans/Goth barbarians). Many terms, cultural references and situations are unfamiliar to my target audience (12-16 year olds). I'm also dealing with a large cast of characters. The more complex the vocabulary or scene structure, the shorter and more simplistic my sentences. (At least, that's the goal.)

Revelation: I often draft in hypotaxis and edit into parataxis.


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Offline kw3000

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2018, 09:29:11 AM »
I wasn't familiar with those terms. But here are a few highly personal opinions.

There are obvious benefits of short and simple sentences. Not least that they give clarity and can carry great power. But, I fail to see any gain or purpose in favoring coordinating over subordinating conjunctions. It's not natural. Perhaps there are reasons in a short paragraph. As a writing style for extended use? Disastrous.

To me, this is gibberish. What sort of egomaniac would inflict this on the world?

Gibberish again.

I would be tempted to think the author had potential.

Not gibberish. Not good either.

Not gibberish. But boring as all hell.

Acceptable.



Hemingway and McCarthy, gibberish? Yikes, lol...agree to disagree. I don't view either's approach as egomaniacal or in some way an imposition they're foisting upon me. I'm not sure if by referring to ego you mean to say McCarthy chooses his turns of phrase as something he wishes to inflict upon the reader? I take his approach more as him working out the best way he knows how to convey the story in a manner that is most efficient or perhaps most resonates in his own mind. Hard to say. I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.

I look at examples of parataxis, like the McCarthy passage, and I see cleanliness and efficiency. Also, the way the words are arranged creates a patter as I read. It helps set the scene in my mind. Tastes differ though obviously, but for me when I read that McCarthy passage or his books in general, I find his stylistic approach thrilling and quite effective. Something I find myself wishing to emulate.

Different strokes though, I recognize, as you'd said they're your personal opinions, and I was interested to read them. What kind of literary world would it be if we all agreed?  :)

Put me down on the list of those who didn't know these had actual names.

I use them, sometimes on accident and like how they sound, sometimes on purpose because I like how they flow. Depends on what the scene needs at the time. I appreciate the cleanliness that Hemingway presents, I like the flow that McCarthy presents.

This makes me sad. This board is huge. We have threads out the butt that complain about amazon or what some writer's doing this week, or cover threads or blurb threads or what's new in self publishing news threads... and people don't have an issue of skipping over those if it doesn't suit them to participate.

But let one craft thread pop up with an interesting discussion and now it's a burden on the community and a waste of time?


 ::)

I'm glad you started the thread. I learned something new. It has value for me. Value is why I'm here.

A strong vote of confidence for craft discussion. Nice to see. Obviously, I agree with you, there's more than enough room for these kinds of threads. Offers some contrast as well to a lot of doom and gloom that can hover around self-publishing.  :)

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2018, 09:48:29 AM »
I don't think about it one way or another. My writing tends to be dialogue heavy, and I write mainly in the first person, so I tailor my writing to the personality and style of whichever character is speaking. Thinking about it, I use both, at different times, to suit the occasion.
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Offline Becca Mills

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2018, 12:04:30 PM »
Welcome to KBoards, Bristle. :)

Agreed. I would enjoy even more craft discussion in the Writers Cafe. I find it helpful and fascinating. At the same time, I don't want to annoy my fellow kboarders by continually posting craft threads if it's something they find irksome.

Start 'em! I <3 craft threads, and I'm sure many others do too.  :)

Offline kw3000

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2018, 12:08:35 PM »
Welcome to KBoards, Bristle. :)

Start 'em! I <3 craft threads, and I'm sure many others do too.  :)

That's encouraging to hear, Becca, thanks. Obviously, one can go overboard by posting too many threads and I don't wanna be that person. But, I can think of a craft discussion or two that I think are worth having. :)

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Online Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2018, 12:11:45 PM »
Glad you provided and explanation and examples  ::)

From your examples.

Parataxis is like watching a tennis match.

Hypotaxis is like watching a pleasant meandering stream.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 12:14:18 PM by Jan Hurst-Nicholson »

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Offline Athena Grayson

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2018, 12:14:35 PM »
I haven't come across the terms before, but I'm definitely more of the parataxis writer. Hypotaxis should be reserved for the action scenes. I'm more of a Jane Austen than a Hemingway, except when there's action. Plus, hypotaxis sounds like it was written by an AI when there's nothing to break it up. When I'm "in the zone" on a WIP, I'm as much a beat poet as I am a TV show runner.

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Offline Jack Krenneck

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Re: Craft Discussion: Do you prefer Parataxis or Hypotaxis or neither?
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2018, 02:05:29 PM »
Hemingway and McCarthy, gibberish? Yikes, lol...agree to disagree.

Yep, just my personal opinion.

Obviously, both famed writers. They won prizes etc. I think they had very limited commercial success though. And probably what book sales they had was as a result of winning prizes... It's an interesting (and un-provable proposition) that if their books were launched into the world today they would sink into literary oblivion. 

What kind of literary world would it be if we all agreed?  :)

A boring one.

A strong vote of confidence for craft discussion. Nice to see. Obviously, I agree with you, there's more than enough room for these kinds of threads. Offers some contrast as well to a lot of doom and gloom that can hover around self-publishing.  :)

I love craft threads myself. Bring them on, I say.