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Author Topic: DRUMS OF AUTUMN: Week of 6/15; Reading Chps 19-30, Discuss Chps 10-18 here  (Read 6729 times)  

Online Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake'

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We'll be reading Chapters 19-30 this week, which puts us half-way through the book. 

Here are this weeks discussion questions. 

Part Four - River Run
Chapters 10-13

1.  What was your first impression of Jocasta? Ulysses?  The relationship between the two?

2.  How did you feel when you learned Jocasta was blind?  Why do you think that Claire, with her keen sense of observation (and as a doctor) didnt notice?

3.  What did you think of Jocasta tricking Jamie into meeting with Lt. Wolff?

4.  Why do you think Simon Fraser joined the British army?  (He actually rose to the rank of general and was pardoned, but his titles were never restored.)  And just for fun, there is a Simon Fraser University in California.  Here is their coat of arms.



5.  Why do you think Ian changed his mind about Jamies fitness to be a guardian to Young Ian?

6.  In his letter, Ian describes the steel in Jamies eyes since Culloden.  Do you think now that Claire is back, he will lose some of that look?

7.  Claire tries to spare the slaves as much work as possible.  How much difference do you think there is between this system and the systems of servitude and serfdom in England and France? 

8.  Im not even going to ask about the Bloodshed Law (shudder), but Im going to ask what you think of Campbells attempt to be humane about it while still enforcing it.  Do you think his attitude was unusual?

9.  What do you think of Jocastas plan to announce Jamie as her heir without consulting him?

10.  Do you think Jamie is a violent man by nature, as he says to Claire?  Why do you think he says he isnt a good man?

11.  What do you think of Jamie letting Byrnes die of lockjaw?

12.  Death and mayhem again.  Do you agree with their decision not to tell Campbell the full truth about the girls abortion?

13.  Do you think Jamie was the one who killed Bobby Murchison?  Does Billy Murchison blame Jamie for his death?

Part Five-- Drums of Autumn
"Strawberry Fields Forever"
Chapter 14-16

1.  What do you think of the plan to take Pollyanne to the Indians?  Do you think she is exchanging one kind of slavery for another?

2.  What do you think of Ians eagerness to go with Myers and meet the Indians?  Will Myers be able to convince him to come back to meet Jamie and Claire?

3.  What did you think of the incident with the bear?

4.  How did you feel about their first meeting with Indians? 

5.  As they travel further from civilization, Claire recalls the cave at Abandawe.  She asks herself, Where else?  Do you think her fears of stumbling into another time portal are justified? 

6.  Claire saw Jamies gravestone in Scotland.  Considering there were no dates on it, do you think Claire is justified in fearing that if Jamie goes back there he will die at that time?

Part Six-- Drums of Autumn
"Je T'aime"
Chapter 17-18

1.  These two chapters are about the relationship between Roger and Bree.  Discuss their feelings for each other.  Do you think Brees feelings are strong enough to eventually overcome her fears?


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Offline danfan

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1.  What was your first impression of Jocasta? Ulysses?  The relationship between the two?
I'm not sure I had an immediate first impression, although before I realized she was blind I thought perhaps she had Ulysses trained a little overboard.

2.  How did you feel when you learned Jocasta was blind?  Why do you think that Claire, with her keen sense of observation (and as a doctor) didnt notice?
Ahhhh so that's why Ulysses is as he is. Years of dedication honed into her needs. She hides it well, perhaps through years of being alone and needing to keep up the appearance of being very strong still.
I assumed Claire didn't notice because Jocasta is so well rehearsed, and Claire wasn't expecting it.

3.  What did you think of Jocasta tricking Jamie into meeting with Lt. Wolff?
Rather liker her brother, Dougal. Although I wasn't sure how much was desperation causing her to trick him, and how much plain wiliness.

4.  Why do you think Simon Fraser joined the British army?  (He actually rose to the rank of general and was pardoned, but his titles were never restored.)  
I couldn't negatively judge anyone who chose to do so in order to avoid gaol/ hanging, or to regain their land. It might not be noble, like dying for your beliefs, but so many people were dragged into the doomed Rising that I am just don't think I can blame them. Ultimately, any of them that gained a Pardon had to swear on Oath of allegiance to the king and so at least verbally denouncing what they fought for. It was a matter of get out of Britain or side with England.

5.  Why do you think Ian changed his mind about Jamies fitness to be a guardian to Young Ian?
I thought that was a bit odd; a mix of thinking they need to keep Young Ian out of Scotland, and if nothing bad has happened with Jamie so far than perhaps he's simply better off there.

6.  In his letter, Ian describes the steel in Jamies eyes since Culloden.  Do you think now that Claire is back, he will lose some of that look?
Probably not back to his former self, no - but I would be surprised if she didn't soften him back a little.

7.  Claire tries to spare the slaves as much work as possible.  How much difference do you think there is between this system and the systems of servitude and serfdom in England and France?
 
Don't know enough to give a good intellectual discussion on that!

8.  Im not even going to ask about the Bloodshed Law (shudder), but Im going to ask what you think of Campbells attempt to be humane about it while still enforcing it.  Do you think his attitude was unusual?
I am guessing that it probably was unusual. If it were the norm then presumably there would be more pressure for others to be more humane, or perhaps even relax the law. I think anyone who has any kind of true conscience, but still has to abide by that law, would have no personal choice but to be as humane as possible - which implies to me that Campbell does have a conscience and perhaps will be a good character in the future.

9.  What do you think of Jocastas plan to announce Jamie as her heir without consulting him?
Ooo now, that was pure MacKenzie. Again though, I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt and think it was all for good reasons.

10.  Do you think Jamie is a violent man by nature, as he says to Claire?  Why do you think he says he isnt a good man?

Yes I think he is a violent man, partly by nature, partly by circumstance. I don't think it means he's not a good man because he doesn't look for violence, only uses is as he feels he has to.
I understand why he thinks he's not a good man though. Any conscience will make him feel guilt/ remorse and perhaps make him wonder what he could have done differently. But the fact that he thinks it shows, to me, that he's not bad.

11.  What do you think of Jamie letting Byrnes die of lockjaw?
I can't remember all of that, Will have to re-read. Was that the overseer?  

12.  Death and mayhem again.  Do you agree with their decision not to tell Campbell the full truth about the girls abortion?
Yes. Initially they didn't know all that facts, and even if they did, the law wouldn't allow a trial if a slave was the suspect. At that point, unless they could prove it was someone else, then telling Campbell could only lead to more death.

13.  Do you think Jamie was the one who killed Bobby Murchison?  Does Billy Murchison blame Jamie for his death?

Don't know. And Murchison just seems like a classic sociopath so even if Jamie isn't too blame, Billy would resent and hate him anyway.

Part Five-- Drums of Autumn
"Strawberry Fields Forever"
Chapter 14-16

1.  What do you think of the plan to take Pollyanne to the Indians?  Do you think she is exchanging one kind of slavery for another?

I know that sometimes people did adopt themselves into a tribe, so I was hoping for that.

2.  What do you think of Ians eagerness to go with Myers and meet the Indians?

Ian's just full of adventure, and I wasn't surprised at all that he'd want to.

Will Myers be able to convince him to come back to meet Jamie and Claire?

Can't remember that...

3.  What did you think of the incident with the bear?

They can't go anywhere without trouble! I thought it was a little comical (after I stopped worrying that they'd be killed)

4.  How did you feel about their first meeting with Indians?
A bit nerve wracking. I was worried that the feelings would turn negative at any time but on the whole, it was a good one.

5.  As they travel further from civilization, Claire recalls the cave at Abandawe.  She asks herself, Where else?  Do you think her fears of stumbling into another time portal are justified?

Yes, I am expecting them to pop up anywhere, and anytime.

6.  Claire saw Jamies gravestone in Scotland.  Considering there were no dates on it, do you think Claire is justified in fearing that if Jamie goes back there he will die at that time?
The blank dates made me think that the time of death was changeable, but I didn't think the place was - so yes, I shared Claire's feeling that he shouldn't go back.

Part Six-- Drums of Autumn
"Je T'aime"
Chapter 17-18

1.  These two chapters are about the relationship between Roger and Bree.  Discuss their feelings for each other.  Do you think Brees feelings are strong enough to eventually overcome her fears?

I really like Roger & Brianna. I've read reviews saying a lot of negative things about them but I like them a lot. I think their relationship is far more typical than Jamie & Claire's intensity, and it would be unfair to expect them to be the same. I was hoping Bree could overcome her fears, and that they could be happy together.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 01:48:44 PM by danfan »
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Offline tlshaw

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Part Four - River Run
Chapters 10-13

1.  What was your first impression of Jocasta? Ulysses?  The relationship between the two?
Knowing Jocasta was a McKenzie, I expected her to be very self-assured and in charge. Ulysses seemed more than a butler, but he knew his place as a slave. Jocasta seemed to depend a great deal on her butler and he seemed to just know what she wanted and needed without any conversation.

2.  How did you feel when you learned Jocasta was blind?  Why do you think that Claire, with her keen sense of observation (and as a doctor) didnt notice?
That was so sad, I felt bad for her. She was so relaxed and sure in what she did, that it would be easy for anyone to not notice at first. Claire was so exhausted and overwhelmed, she wasnt paying close attention to much.

3.  What did you think of Jocasta tricking Jamie into meeting with Lt. Wolff?
She is a McKenzie. She knew that Jamie would not agree to the meeting, but once he was there he would do whatever needed to be done.

4.  Why do you think Simon Fraser joined the British army?  (He actually rose to the rank of general and was pardoned, but his titles were never restored.)  And just for fun, there is a Simon Fraser University in California.  Here is their coat of arms.

 
Simon was an opportunist, and would do what he thought he needed to to survive.

5.  Why do you think Ian changed his mind about Jamies fitness to be a guardian to Young Ian?
He knew Jamie would look out for Ian and with him in America, there was less chance of him being forced into the army.

6.  In his letter, Ian describes the steel in Jamies eyes since Culloden.  Do you think now that Claire is back, he will lose some of that look?
With Claire back, Jamie now has more of a reason to live. He was a shell with Claire gone.

7.  Claire tries to spare the slaves as much work as possible.  How much difference do you think there is between this system and the systems of servitude and serfdom in England and France? 
The servants in Europe generally had not been kidnapped from their homeland and shipped off to a foreign country where they did not speak the language and sold like cattle. These servants often were also paid and had their own homes.

8.  Im not even going to ask about the Bloodshed Law (shudder), but Im going to ask what you think of Campbells attempt to be humane about it while still enforcing it.  Do you think his attitude was unusual?
If Campbell had refused to follow the law, he would have been dismissed as judge and been unable to do anything. Others may have agreed with him, but few were probably willing to follow through like he was.

9.  What do you think of Jocastas plan to announce Jamie as her heir without consulting him?
The McKenzies were sly as foxes. Jocasta knew very well that Jamie would turn her down in private, but if the announcement were made in public, everyone would assume he agreed and he was too much a gentleman and honorable to make his family look bad.

10.  Do you think Jamie is a violent man by nature, as he says to Claire?  Why do you think he says he isnt a good man?
Jamie is not a violent man. He is only violent when forced to it, either in war or defending his men or family. The things he has been forced to do to survive weighs on his conscience.

11.  What do you think of Jamie letting Byrnes die of lockjaw?
He was protecting Claire, and in his mind, that was the only option.

12.  Death and mayhem again.  Do you agree with their decision not to tell Campbell the full truth about the girls abortion?
They were just guessing, however well-founded. I am not sure I could have done differently, knowing I was condemning someone to death without a trial.

13.  Do you think Jamie was the one who killed Bobby Murchison?  Does Billy Murchison blame Jamie for his death?
That is not Jamies style. He knew, but I dont think he did it. Billy probably blames anyone who was at Ardmuir.


Part Five-- Drums of Autumn
"Strawberry Fields Forever"
Chapter 14-16

1.  What do you think of the plan to take Pollyanne to the Indians?  Do you think she is exchanging one kind of slavery for another?
The Indians would probably adopt her and treat her like a member of the tribe. It was the only real option they had.

2.  What do you think of Ians eagerness to go with Myers and meet the Indians?  Will Myers be able to convince him to come back to meet Jamie and Claire?
Ian had a romantic idea of the Indians. Even with his eagerness to learn about the Indians, Ian is very attached to Jamie and will not abandon him.

3.  What did you think of the incident with the bear?
I was holding my breath reading it.

4.  How did you feel about their first meeting with Indians?
Jamie can get along with anyone. His ease of learning new languages was a great asset.

5.  As they travel further from civilization, Claire recalls the cave at Abandawe.  She asks herself, Where else?  Do you think her fears of stumbling into another time portal are justified? 
Definitely. She already knows of 2 in different parts of the world and has speculated that there is one under the Loch Ness. It stands to reason that there would be more scattered around the world.

6.  Claire saw Jamies gravestone in Scotland.  Considering there were no dates on it, do you think Claire is justified in fearing that if Jamie goes back there he will die at that time?
Yes. With the time involved in travel and Jamies seasickness, there is no reason to think that would make multiple trips back and forth between America and Scotland.

Part Six-- Drums of Autumn
"Je T'aime"
Chapter 17-18

1.  These two chapters are about the relationship between Roger and Bree.  Discuss their feelings for each other.  Do you think Brees feelings are strong enough to eventually overcome her fears?

Roger is totally in love with Bree. She loves Roger, but I think she is unsure of herself. She is scared of committing to him, after growing up in a home without love. Roger has to be willing to allow Bree time to get over her fears. I very much respect his restraint in not making love to her without marrying her. He is wanting her to realize how important having her trust, as well as her body, is to him.

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Helloooooo! Where has everyone gone?  ???

Offline imallbs

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Here I am

I've only read through part of chapter 15 so here are my responses up to there.  I'm being really careful about reading what everybody else wrote but I look forward to reading your thoughts and hope I get caught up in time to get in on the discussion.

Part Four - River Run
Chapters 10-13

1.  What was your first impression of Jocasta?

A MacKenzie and a Scot, genuinely happy to see Jamie but why?
Ulysses?
Devoted to Jocasta
The relationship between the two
Ulysses seems devoted to Jocasta and Jocasta depends on Ulysses.  Ulysses position with Jocasta gives him some power.

2.  How did you feel when you learned Jocasta was blind?
suprised
Why do you think that Claire, with her keen sense of observation (and as a doctor) didnt notice? 
She didnt expect it.  She did notice that something was wrong but didn't have time to figure it out yet.  Also, Jocasta is used to hiding her blindness.

3.  What did you think of Jocasta tricking Jamie into meeting with Lt. Wolff? 
She's a MacKenzie  :)

4.  Why do you think Simon Fraser joined the British army?  (He actually rose to the rank of general and was pardoned, but his titles were never restored.)  
Like father like son.  His father did what he had to do to survive; playing both sides and Simon is doing the same thing.  But apparently at the cost of everything that was important to him.

5.  Why do you think Ian changed his mind about Jamies fitness to be a guardian to Young Ian? 
Jamie saved his son.  Ian must know how seasick Jamie gets and what it cost him to go to Jamaica to find him so he knew he could trust him to take care of Ian and Ian was safer with Jamie than in Scotland.  Also I think he hoped that being with Claire would help keep Jamie from taking so many chances (like she wouldnt be right there with him)

6.  In his letter, Ian describes the steel in Jamies eyes since Culloden.  Do you think now that Claire is back, he will lose some of that look? 
Tempered steel maybe?

7.  Claire tries to spare the slaves as much work as possible.  How much difference do you think there is between this system and the systems of servitude and serfdom in England and France? 
Very little difference.  Serfs were bound to the land but couldnt be sold so families were not torn apart.  Other than that there was little difference.  Though serfs could escape and if stayed free (for one day more than a year I think) they could remain free.  Slaves would be hunted down.

8.  Im not even going to ask about the Bloodshed Law (shudder), but Im going to ask what you think of Campbells attempt to be humane about it while still enforcing it.  Do you think his attitude was unusual?  
No, I think most people are not able to be near other people and not see them as human beings and want to treat them well.  Of course there were those (and are those) who like to hurt people and they are the ones we hear about.    Campbell had to enforce the law or someone else would have been given his position.  Since he could not affect the bigger picture, he was doing what he could.

9.  What do you think of Jocastas plan to announce Jamie as her heir without consulting him? 
Very Colum like

10.  Do you think Jamie is a violent man by nature, as he says to Claire?   y nature or by nurture?  I think Jamie was born and raised a sensitive man but by his experiences he became a man of violence.    b]Why do you think he says he isnt a good man?[/b] 
Jamie has a code he was raised to live by, and he hasnt...and we don't know every thing he did the 20 years after Culloden

11.  What do you think of Jamie letting Byrnes die of lockjaw?
Initially I was horrified and thought that it showed how much he changed.  Then after he explained, I understood it was his way of taking care of Claire.  Still he has changed enough that he doesnt care if the man suffered.  Way to take a position and stand by it huh?


12.  Death and mayhem again.  Do you agree with their decision not to tell Campbell the full truth about the girls abortion?
Yes

13.  Do you think Jamie was the one who killed Bobby Murchison?  Does Billy Murchison blame Jamie for his death?
Initially I thought whether Jamie killed him or not, he was in charge of the men and so at least knew about it and Billy would hold him responsible.  Rethinking this I think Jamie either killed Bobby himself or took an active part in killing.  I dont think we know the reason yet.  This is probably one of the things he is alluding to when he says he is a violent man.


1.  What do you think of the plan to take Pollyanne to the Indians? 
What other choice did they have?  I was glad Jocasta was in on it.  I wasnt thinking too highly of her but she has risen in my estimation. Do you think she is exchanging one kind of slavery for another? 
I dont think Meyers would take her to a tribe where she would be made a slave.  But if he did, would that be better than dying?

2.  What do you think of Ians eagerness to go with Myers and meet the Indians?  
Ian has a real interest in the Indians.  Maybe he has found something that will focus him. 
Will Myers be able to convince him to come back to meet Jamie and Claire?  I dont know.

3.  What did you think of the incident with the bear?
Scary!

What possessed ye, woman, to hit me in the heid wi a fish whilst I was fighting for my life?
That line gave me a much needed laugh.  There are not nearly as many of these as there were in Outlander and DIA.


This is as far as Ive read so Im off to read more

Offline danfan

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What possessed ye, woman, to hit me in the heid wi a fish whilst I was fighting for my life?
That line gave me a much needed laugh.  There are not nearly as many of these as there were in Outlander and DIA.




LOL I forgot about that. That was hilarious!
Danielle

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Offline imallbs

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I finished reading this section so....

4.  How did you feel about their first meeting with Indians? 
It bothers me that Claire keeps referring to the Indians as Savages or Red Savages.  I understand her using the term Indian instead of Native American but the Savages thing ice pick in eye; Claire should know better.
As for the meeting, I think it showed that they will be able to make it in the wilderness.  Jamie can communicate and they dont have to be afraid of the red savages.

5.  As they travel further from civilization, Claire recalls the cave at Abandawe.  She asks herself, Where else?  Do you think her fears of stumbling into another time portal are justified?
Given how they affect her, I think she has a right to be concerned.  But she knows how they feel before she gets too close so she should be able to avoid them.   
She seems to have developed a lot of anxiety.  I hope it gets resolved because I liked the old Claire.

6.  Claire saw Jamies gravestone in Scotland.  Considering there were no dates on it, do you think Claire is justified in fearing that if Jamie goes back there he will die at that time?
My answer was NO! Lighten UP! Get Over It! but after reading your replies, I have changed my mind.  tlshaw, I had not thought about how Jamie's sea sickness would prevent him from making the crossing more than once.  And danfan, the idea that the lack of a date of death meant that it could be changed had never occurred to me.

Just want to throw this out there
Is it likely that Jamie would have ended up in America if Claire had not come back?  It is because of her return that Ian was on the island when Geilie's men went for the gems (Jamie needed the gems to pay off Laoghaire and he had to pay off Laoghaire because Claire came back).  So by coming back, did Claire change the time Jamie would die and the way he would die?

Part Six-- Drums of Autumn
"Je T'aime"
Chapter 17-18

1.  These two chapters are about the relationship between Roger and Bree.  Discuss their feelings for each other.  Do you think Brees feelings are strong enough to eventually overcome her fears?

Roger is so patient.  Reminds me of Jamie when he loved Claire before Claire loved (admitted she loved) him.
If they are together enough, I think Bree will let her guard down and take a chance.
Quote
I very much respect his restraint in not making love to her without marrying her. He is wanting her to realize how important having her trust, as well as her body, is to him.
I second that

Offline danfan

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I finished reading this section so....

4.  How did you feel about their first meeting with Indians?  
It bothers me that Claire keeps referring to the Indians as Savages or Red Savages.  I understand her using the term Indian instead of Native American but the Savages thing ice pick in eye; Claire should know better.
As for the meeting, I think it showed that they will be able to make it in the wilderness.  Jamie can communicate and they dont have to be afraid of the red savages.

I wondered a bit about the term savage. Claire was from a more enlightened time, although maybe not even as enlightened as now.
That said, Claire quite often slipped into the feelings of the times. Savage: "attack brutally and fiercely" - some tribes certainly did, and "a member of an uncivilized people" - compared to her life in the 20th century, even the Highlanders often seemed uncivilized to her and so I am sure the native Americans did too. I don't think it would alter what she saw as their rights as people and a society or how they should be treated with their lands however.



6.  Claire saw Jamies gravestone in Scotland.  Considering there were no dates on it, do you think Claire is justified in fearing that if Jamie goes back there he will die at that time?
My answer was NO! Lighten UP! Get Over It! but after reading your replies, I have changed my mind.  tlshaw, I had not thought about how Jamie's sea sickness would prevent him from making the crossing more than once.  And danfan, the idea that the lack of a date of death meant that it could be changed had never occurred to me.

Just want to throw this out there
Is it likely that Jamie would have ended up in America if Claire had not come back?  It is because of her return that Ian was on the island when Geilie's men went for the gems (Jamie needed the gems to pay off Laoghaire and he had to pay off Laoghaire because Claire came back).  So by coming back, did Claire change the time Jamie would die and the way he would die?


I didn't think Jamie would have ended up in America without Claire & I do think she has the ability to change small parts of the past/ future. That said, who really knows how much is predetermined? Was it set in stone that she would end up back in the 18th century? And if she hadn't, who knows what would have happened to Jamie in Edinburgh. He was already being betrayed within his smuggling business, so perhaps he would have ended up leaving Scotland anyway.
I am curious what would have happened to the history books if Claire was able to nip back and forward through the stones quite frequently? How much of the past really would have changed, and how much was she just steering in its preordained course?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 08:47:06 AM by danfan »
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Offline tlshaw

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I hadn't thought about Ian not being kidnapped and all of the following events had Claire not shown up. You're right. There would have been no need to get the gems at that time if Jamie didn't need to pay off Loaghaire. But the betrayal in Scotland was already taking place before Claire arrived. But, even if Jamie had to leave Scotland, he probably would have gone to France to work with Jared. The only reason to head to the West Indies was in search of Ian. But, why was Jamie's gravestone where it was, in the same graveyard as Black Jack? It didn't make sense if he didn't die at Culloden.

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But, why was Jamie's gravestone where it was, in the same graveyard as Black Jack? It didn't make sense if he didn't die at Culloden.
That was bothering me too.  There is no reason for it to be there except to lead Claire back.  And that, without an explanation behind it, is not consistent with DG's writing.  Maybe that inconsistency is what is bothering me.
I wondered a bit about the term savage. Claire was from a more enlightened time, although maybe not even as enlightened as now.
That said, Claire quite often slipped into the feelings of the times. Savage: "attack brutally and fiercely" - some tribes certainly did, and "a member of an uncivilized people" - compared to her life in the 20th century, even the Highlanders often seemed uncivilized to her and so I am sure the native Americans did too. I don't think it would alter what she saw as their rights as people and a society or how they should be treated with their lands however.

I didn't think Jamie would have ended up in America without Claire & I do think she has the ability to change small parts of the past/ future. That said, who really knows how much is predetermined? Was it set in stone that she would end up back in the 18th century? And if she hadn't, who knows what would have happened to Jamie in Edinburgh. He was already being betrayed within his smuggling business, so perhaps he would have ended up leaving Scotland anyway.
I am curious what would have happened to the history books if Claire was able to nip back and forward through the stones quite frequently? How much of the past really would have changed, and how much was she just steering in its preordained course?

Well when Claire left the term Indian was still widely used and Alcatraz had not happened yet.  I guess it is easy to slip into the speech patterns of those around you.  But still, with the way she feels about slavery and about people in general, she should know better than that.  I do agree with you that she would not have let the terminology affect the way she treated people.
Claire nipping back and forth to check the library (and get a hot bath) on a regular basis is an interesting thought.  When things were not going quite right she could slip back, check a few things to see if anything had changes and then go back to try again.   I think wanting Claire to have limited information about the future was why DG made her so uninterested in Frank's work.

So let me ask this
Why would Jamie have to be the one to go back to Scotland to get the settlers?  Jenny and Ian and Jamie (who is Laird) would seem to be in a better position to know who would be good candidates for settlers.
Do you think that Jamie's actions in saving his men at Culloden helped create the situation where some families needed to be supported by Jenny and Ian.  If the men were killed or imprisoned their families would have been gone long ago.  Not a happy thought but fewer people means that some of them would not have had to stay on land that wasn't producing.

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Helloooooo! Where has everyone gone?  ???

Sorry, Theresa.  It's been a crazy week, and now I'm all gummed up with cold medicine.   :-\


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Very interesting discussion.  You've all brought up some interesting points. 

I applaud Claire's attitude towards owning slaves, and taking a firm stand.  I applaud Jamie even more for standing by her and understanding. 

What I don't understand is Claire's attitude toward the servants in France.  Yes, they were paid, but very little.  Like the slaves, they were given a roof over their heads, food to eat, and minimal new clothing once a year.  If a servant was dismissed without reference, there was very few options for them.  In particular if a girl were found to be pregnant, that was grounds for instant dismissal with little chance of survival. 

It seems to me that servants and serfs were only a step or two above the slaves, and Claire should have been at least a little squeamish about exploiting them as well. 

The Bruja got lucky finding Ian at seal rock when they went for the gems.  But I wonder what Gellie's exact instructions to them were.  We don't know anything about the other boys that were taken. 

Did she say get me a dozen Scottish boys of a certain age?  Did she specify that they were to be taken from specific locations?  It's likely the boys were taken from coastal areas, and Beaufort Castle is pretty close to the sea.  Did she specify that they were all to be taken from that area because she wanted a descendant of the old fox?  Maybe the other boys weren't suitable because they were not Frasers.  Maybe the pirates just grabbed whatever boys were available without regard to who they were. 

Here's another question.  If Claire hadn't gone back, would Gellie have made it back to 1968, perhaps guided to Briana by means other than Ian's blood? 



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Offline imallbs

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I applaud Claire's attitude towards owning slaves, and taking a firm stand.  I applaud Jamie even more for standing by her and understanding. 

What I don't understand is Claire's attitude toward the servants in France.  Yes, they were paid, but very little.  Like the slaves, they were given a roof over their heads, food to eat, and minimal new clothing once a year.  If a servant was dismissed without reference, there was very few options for them.  In particular if a girl were found to be pregnant, that was grounds for instant dismissal with little chance of survival. 

It seems to me that servants and serfs were only a step or two above the slaves, and Claire should have been at least a little squeamish about exploiting them as well. 

The Bruja got lucky finding Ian at seal rock when they went for the gems.  But I wonder what Gellie's exact instructions to them were.  We don't know anything about the other boys that were taken. 

Did she say get me a dozen Scottish boys of a certain age?  Did she specify that they were to be taken from specific locations?  It's likely the boys were taken from coastal areas, and Beaufort Castle is pretty close to the sea.  Did she specify that they were all to be taken from that area because she wanted a descendant of the old fox?  Maybe the other boys weren't suitable because they were not Frasers.  Maybe the pirates just grabbed whatever boys were available without regard to who they were. 

Here's another question.  If Claire hadn't gone back, would Gellie have made it back to 1968, perhaps guided to Briana by means other than Ian's blood? 
I think Claire's attitude towards slavery was great as was Jamie for standing by her.  I wonder how much living through the 60s influenced her attitude.  The issue of race in the 60s was dominated by the treatment of African Americans.  The treatment of Native Americans really came into the forefront in the late 60s and early 70s so Claire wasn't there for that.

I had not thought about the servants in France, that is a good point.  Serfs were barely a step above slaves.  I think of it as slavery.  What else do you call it when you don't let people leave or have other choices.

So what was Geilie's plan.  She had the stones, she had fresh boys for a blood sacrifice, she could get fire.  Geilie didn't know about Brianna when she started the whole thing.   Geilie is pretty resourceful so I assume she would have made it back to 1968 to do what she wanted to do but it would have been done without Claire or Brianna.

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So what was Geilie's plan.  She had the stones, she had fresh boys for a blood sacrifice, she could get fire.  Geilie didn't know about Brianna when she started the whole thing.   Geilie is pretty resourceful so I assume she would have made it back to 1968 to do what she wanted to do but it would have been done without Claire or Brianna.
But, before Geilie found out about Bree, was she planning to go forward or back in time? Did finding out about Bree change all the plans? As far as Geilie knew before meeting Bree, the Lovat line died out around 1880. I would think she would try to go to somewhere in the 19th century to find a descendent, but Bree was a specific person she could go to now, even if she was almost 100 years later.

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But, before Geilie found out about Bree, was she planning to go forward or back in time? Did finding out about Bree change all the plans? As far as Geilie knew before meeting Bree, the Lovat line died out around 1880. I would think she would try to go to somewhere in the 19th century to find a descendent, but Bree was a specific person she could go to now, even if she was almost 100 years later.

Yes, she might have been trying to go to the 19th century.  I hadn't thought of that. 

Here's a creepy thought.  Did she hope to get pregnant by Ian and so she could carry the Lovat line forward herself?  It's just barely possible that she could still get pregnant. 

Back to the "Red Savages" discussion.  I can understand Claire using that terminology.  She's Catholic and Catholics are brought up on lurid stories of Jesuit martyrs and the horrible tortures they endured at the hands of the Iroquois.  Plus, she would have been exposed to movies in the 40's and 50's such as Red River and Drums Along the Mohawk which would have portrayed Indians as bloodthirsty savages.  Custer's last stand, Indians attacking peaceful settlers, scalping innocent women and children, John Wayne, etc. 

I'm not talking about whether or not those portrayals were accurate.  I'm just saying that these are the kinds of things to which Claire would have been exposed which would have formed her impressions. 


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Offline imallbs

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That's a good point that Geilie may have been planning to go back in time instead of forward.  But would that have been possible?  All the Faerie stories and what was written so far has been a limit of 200 years from the starting point.  Of course Geilie may have known something we don't.  I keep coming back to the fact that Geilie didn't know about Bree and she didn't know that she was going to get Ian.  Of course she could always have changed her plans once she knew who Ian was.

Geilie having Ian's baby, definitely a creepy thought.

On the Red Savages thing.  My first year of college the sports teams names were changes from the Savages to the Eagles because the term Savages was so offensive.  But that was in the late 70s.  Everyone I knew through high school referred to Native Americans as Indians (including my Native Amerian friends) and that is no longer acceptable.   So I guess I will try to be a little more tolerant of the term savages.  It is funny how Jamie keeps referring to the "red savages" and highlanders were often called savages by the British.

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That's a good point that Geilie may have been planning to go back in time instead of forward.  But would that have been possible?  All the Faerie stories and what was written so far has been a limit of 200 years from the starting point.  Of course Geilie may have known something we don't.  I keep coming back to the fact that Geilie didn't know about Bree and she didn't know that she was going to get Ian.  Of course she could always have changed her plans once she knew who Ian was.

Yes, it's possible to go further back.  Can't tell you anymore than that.   ;)


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Offline Anju No. 469

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I am having problems all around with Claire - she lived through the 1950's and 60's, yet she is squeamish (not sure that is the correct word, spooky ) about all sorts of stuff.  She is after all 50 ish and supposedly an intelligent person.  However, I am impressed with her ability to walk forever, and keep up with the guys so she seems to be in pretty good shape.

I am not sure what Briannas problem is with Roger, maybe he is the "first" serious relationship and she is not sure how to handle it, maybe her Mother and Frank's relationship has clouded her to what is normal.

I am also not able to stop at chapter 30, have gone way past and will probably end up finishing the book before the rest of ya'.  Don't want to say any more, afraid I will give something away.

Oh yes, I found Abernathy interesting and knew immediately that his ancestor was the one on the island, interesting how DG can tie some together and others that I would like to know more about, nothing.
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I am having problems all around with Claire - she lived through the 1950's and 60's, yet she is squeamish (not sure that is the correct word, spooky ) about all sorts of stuff.  She is after all 50 ish and supposedly an intelligent person.  However, I am impressed with her ability to walk forever, and keep up with the guys so she seems to be in pretty good shape.

My problem with Claire is she won't accept the fact that life in the 18th century is very different and much more dangerous.  She has no problem adapting to the rough conditions thanks to Uncle Lamb, but she's forever ignoring warning signs and throwing herself into danger. 

Quote
I am not sure what Briannas problem is with Roger, maybe he is the "first" serious relationship and she is not sure how to handle it, maybe her Mother and Frank's relationship has clouded her to what is normal.

I never could buy the relationship between Bree and Roger.  Maybe they were just too namby-pamby compared to Jamie and Claire. 

Quote
I am also not able to stop at chapter 30, have gone way past and will probably end up finishing the book before the rest of ya'.  Don't want to say any more, afraid I will give something away.

I mean to stop this weeks reading at Chapter 29.  Sorry. 

I'm way behind this week, so I won't be posting the discussion questions until later tonight. 


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I thought maybe the cold meds got to you as 30 was the beginning of another "section".  No worries for me tho, I am waaay far ahead!  One problem I have is, I have the companion book, and it stops at Drums, bummer!
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Re: DRUMS OF AUTUMN: Week of 6/15; Reading Chps 19-30, Discuss Chps 10-18 here
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2011, 04:44:03 PM »
I'm aware this is an incredibly old thread, but I'm just now reading Drums of Autumn. 
There is discussion in this thread concerning Bree and Roger.  Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought I read earlier in the book where the last piece of paper Roger removed from the wall was his family tree.  And on that tree was Geillis and Dougal.  Would that not make him a relative to Bree? 
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Re: DRUMS OF AUTUMN: Week of 6/15; Reading Chps 19-30, Discuss Chps 10-18 here
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2011, 04:49:00 PM »
I'm aware this is an incredibly old thread, but I'm just now reading Drums of Autumn. 
There is discussion in this thread concerning Bree and Roger.  Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought I read earlier in the book where the last piece of paper Roger removed from the wall was his family tree.  And on that tree was Geillis and Dougal.  Would that not make him a relative to Bree? 
deb

Yes, it does but the connection goes back 200 years. They're probably something like 20th cousins.


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Re: DRUMS OF AUTUMN: Week of 6/15; Reading Chps 19-30, Discuss Chps 10-18 here
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2011, 04:53:28 PM »
Oh, so glad you're on.  I was hoping you would be. 

That makes sense.  I could not wrap my head around that one. 
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Re: DRUMS OF AUTUMN: Week of 6/15; Reading Chps 19-30, Discuss Chps 10-18 here
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2011, 04:55:56 PM »
Oh, so glad you're on.  I was hoping you would be. 

That makes sense.  I could not wrap my head around that one. 
deb

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Re: DRUMS OF AUTUMN: Week of 6/15; Reading Chps 19-30, Discuss Chps 10-18 here
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2011, 04:57:23 PM »
Thank you.  I'm really enjoying DoA.  So many pieces coming together and so many more developing. 
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