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Messages - TheForeverGirlSeries

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Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 10:38:59 PM »
Not being able to get a Bookbub doesn't give anyone the excuse to engage in manipulative practices as some kind of 'even-up' over a perceived wrong. Not everyone can get a Bookbub, and if you can't, keep trying. At least with Bookbub you're promoting your own work, not throwing in with a stack of other books as way to game your rank and "get letters" that you didn't actually personally earn.

Agreed. And that's why no one is engaging in manipulative practices here. Except maybe those here who know they are posting false information... But I mean, we can just keep saying I'm doing things I'm not doing. If you say it enough times, that makes it true.

Oh wait. That's not how this works. :P

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 10:37:28 PM »
Then post it on a website. After all, this is your brand that's being threatened. If you have foolproof evidence of your innocence, you should make it freely available for everyone to see without the requirement to join your group.

And don't give me the "I don't have time" excuse. This thread is now eleven pages long. In all the time you've been repeating "join my group for proof," you could've easily done a bulk upload of all those images on a Wordpress post and been done with that.

I have already posted publicly in multiple places, and as I said - why would I defend my brand to people who are CHOOSING not to learn the truth. It doesn't matter WHERE I post it, people who don't want to know the truth are going to ignore. So the truth isn't for them. I shouldn't have to report the SAME evidence 100 times just for it to be posted in yet ANOTHER venue a week later, and aGAIN people to ignore the facts. That's why now I just say - join the group. This is how I can tell who really wants the truth and who wants and excuse to hold onto lies. It's how I weed out people's motivations. And right now, that's a great thing to be able to do :)

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 10:34:37 PM »
I'll say it even clearer, so that nobody else can misconstrue my words. I find the whole idea of a $.99 box set of 20 books by 20 authors, who paid to be in it for the sole purpose of being able to say they are a NYT or USAT best seller an act of moral repugnance. Again, that's just me, one old Marine's opinion, based on my own moral compass.

Thankfully that's not the sole purpose. Some of the sets are never even posted wide because it's not even part of the purpose. But it's cool for you to hate the sets even if that's not the sole purpose. I don't think it's immoral, but it's definitely not for everyone.

Man, wouldn't it rock if we all put this much time into standing against other immoral acts, like rape, racism, sexism, etc? I'm totally ashamed to admit that I've spent more time this week defending against BS instead of trying to raise awareness and discussion in those TRULY immoral aspects of life.  My friends need to get me back on track. Totally shameful :/

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 10:31:59 PM »
Elizabeth, not that I think your friend was being funny (though I respect you do) that wasn't the death threat I was referring to. But I'm glad it gave you a giggle when your friend said that. Everyone deserves joy in their life.

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 10:27:42 PM »
Or you could just make the group posts public so people don't have to join to see all this proof. But I guess that's too hard.

From Facebook "Privacy changes are limited in groups with 5,000 members or more." My options are closed or secret. Not public. Sorry.

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 10:24:34 PM »
Or just post the "proof" here. Easily done.

I'll make a deal with you. Post 300 pictures DIRECTLY to this thread, so that people can see it without clicking a link. Then I'll pay someone (because I don't have time) to do the same for me and post all that info here for me as well. I mean, so you can show me how easily done posting 297 screenshots would be compared to clicking a link and a button.

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 10:23:01 PM »
Question: why do the boxsets exist in the first place? Why are people buying their way into them? Are they looking for shortcuts?

Some people pay several hundred dollars to get a BookBub feature to promote a book of theirs for free so that they can reach thousands of new readers.

Some people, especially if they can't get a Bookbub, join a boxed set to promote a book of theirs where they will make a small profit (instead of giving it away completely for free) so that they can reach thousands of new readers that way.

Hope that answers your questions! I've done quite a few anthologies, even after getting my letters, so it's definitely not about that. But I'm picky who I work with. One of the ones I did recently was with Bryan Cohen - it was a fairytale anthology and a lot of fun to write for and great way to connect with new readers. While I've also been approved for book bub, I like to diversify my audience by using different marketing approaches to reach new readers :)

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 10:19:46 PM »
For the sake of the thread, go ahead and post your "truth" here.

Let's see. In January, I spend HOURS posting nearly 300 screenshots, were are already up for anyone who wants to see them.

Now the onus is on me to REPOST 300 screen shots, instead of people clicking a button that gives them access to that?

Nah. Anyone who would ask me to do that doesn't want the truth, so it'd be a waste of time. I'm only making the truth available to those who wish to seek it. That's enough for me. If some people never learn the truth because they choose not to, I'm okay with that :)

Edited. - Becca

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 10:17:49 PM »
Except this wasn't on my FB page. Maybe try reading the op.  As for my FB page, I post there what I please, same as anyone else.

And oh well.  Knowledge is power.  If some read this and decide to go one way, that's fine. If they decide to go the other way that's fine too.  It's a debate worth having rather than sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring potential issues.

SO MUCH THIS!!! Rick and I both agree: Don't stick your head in the sand. Don't ignore potential issues. GET THE FACTS. It's very easy NOT to stick your head in the sand yet many CONTINUE to do this, on purpose! Or some know the truth and PRETEND their head is in the sand. Don't take anyone's word for it. See for yourself and decide for yourself. This is YOUR career and you deserve to think for yourself.

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 10:15:22 PM »
Her books, nor mine have twenty other books tacked onto the back, for the sole purpose of tempting readers with a stack of five cent books. Nor are they offered for $.99 other than the promotional advertising. I advertise to put my book in front of readers. And they buy them to the tune of $400,000 royalty this year. Trust me, you don't want to debate me on marketing concepts.

I think that's awesome. It's working for you and you should keep at it! I'm super excited about your success and hope it continues for you. You're definitely following one of the many right ways to publish and I LOVE hearing from authors who are doing so well. Keep kicking butt!

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 10:10:38 PM »
If a service's very existence is predicated upon manipulation then you don't need to be privy to its details to discern as much, and it's not bandwagon-jumping to rightfully call out unethical practices when you see them. In fact, when it comes to the indie community, it would be a disservice to your fellow indies to NOT call out those unethical practices when you see them.

"If a service's very existence"
it's not a service

"is predicated upon manipulation"
there's no manipulation, and there's evidence of this fact

"then you don't need to be privy to its details to discern as much, and it's not bandwagon-jumping to rightfully call out unethical practices when you see them."
except you didn't see them. You heard about them from someone who is intentionally misleading you, when there is evidence that unethical practices aren't actually happening.

"In fact, when it comes to the indie community, it would be a disservice to your fellow indies to NOT call out those unethical practices when you see them."
Agreed. That's why people are calling out the unethical practices of this in this thread.

Edited. - Becca

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 10:08:38 PM »
I didn't say ethical. Please look up the definition of ethics and morals.

What I meant was, and I'll say it as clearly as I can, I don't see it as morally acceptable, to dangle a $.99 bait of 20 books, that 20 writers paid to have dangled, for the sole purpose of getting "letters."

It can be done simply by working hard, learning your craft, telling good stories and selling them to readers, in a consistent fashion.

I spoke about morals too. I am speaking about morals AND ethics because people in this thread are talking about both :)

So here's something to keep in mind, if you want to talk facts. There is no "sole purpose" of getting letters with my sets. My sets have a lot of purposes. Every set has one main aim with smaller goals. Sometimes the aim is to grow audience, sometimes to make money, and usually to make a list - but those really, all sets do all of those things, ideally. It's just about what is prioritized.

Now, if you think ANTHOLOGIES are immoral, that's totally your right to feel that way. I won't be offended. I'm certainly not the only authors who helps with them or participates in them, and who am I to say how you should feel about them? But as I said before, I'm happy to talk about where we disagree on *what's actually happening* - but being against something I'm not doing isn't an argument, since in those cases it sounds like we're actually on the same page, and your only issue is you were misled into thinking I did something I didn't. I'm sure there's plenty I actually AM doing that we can disagree about, though, such an you finding anthologies immoral where I don't. I'm fine to agree to disagree when it comes to things that actually are relevant to what I do. But it's silly to argue over something that I'm not doing, that there is evidence I'm not doing.

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 10:03:36 PM »
My problem is those authors who are not acting honestly and are buying their way past the honest hard-workers who give it their all and do things above board.

Same here. I hate when people are dishonest and think that success should come from honest, above-board hard work. that's why my sets are run the way they do, and why I am transparent and provide proof of that *to anyone who wants the truth*

- but I already publicly shared all of this information outside of the group multiple times, and I'm done RE-posting the same things. Because it's telling if people choose to ignore facts and evidence and side with rumors. People either want the truth or they don't. I've done my share by posting it, and those who are truly acting from an ethical and moral place can choose to see the truth. Everyone else can just go on rumors. And that's fine by me :)

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 09:54:54 PM »
Ah, I get it. You're just claiming the moral equivalence of the Big 5? Makes perfect sense now.

I have no idea what the morals are of people I haven't met. I only know what publishers standardly use for marketing (Click through ads, newsletter ads, ARC copies, etc) - industry standards. People clearly don't agree on whether those publishing standards are ethical or not. IMO, buying a book cover, paying for an editor, and spending money on marketing (which my screenshots show that's where the money goes with nothing left over for anything else), is not immoral. But you're free to disagree. My issue isn't with that. I'm cool for us to disagree. but let's disagree on what's actually happening, not on things that are being made up. Because the things being made up - I ALSO agree those things are unethical. If I didn't, then I wouldn't be inviting people to look at the truth to realize that's not what I'm doing. But if the marketing I AM doing (paid ads, great cover, etc) are in your opinion unethical or immoral, then that's another discussion, isn't it? But we can't get to that discussion if we're talking about something that's not really happening. Wishing you well, but if I disappear, it's because I just can't hang like I used to. I'm usually in bed by now.

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 09:46:10 PM »
Am I to understand from that statement, that none of the authors in any of those box sets paid money to be in it, with the hopes of getting "their letters?" Because a lot of people on here have already stated that they did exactly that.

By definition, that is "buying your letters."

If you join my group, you can see for yourself that sets are 'list aiming' not list promising. that means we we spend advertising the way any big 5 publisher would if they were aiming to get a book on a bestseller list. The money is for marketing. If paying money for marketing and hoping that marketing will get you on a list is buying your letters, well, then I guess the goal posts just moved again, huh?

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 09:42:29 PM »
Which is behind a membership link and she uses the membership numbers as justification. So no, I'm not joining a group and giving her more ammo. Again, she can put the information on an open website and I'll gladly view it.

If she can't do that, then too bad, so sad, I'm sticking with the people who have never once let me down.

See above post :)

Part of the "truth" of those screenshots is that people you trusted were aware of them and mislead you. Seeing them IN THE GROUP is how you will realize that. Outside of that, I'm not RE-posting almost 300 screenshots every time someone decides to repeat something they KNOW is a lie. Anyone who CHOOSES to be willfully ignorant of the facts is not someone it's worth my time to prove myself to anyway. I've taken measures on my end to show my motivations, and now, other people's motivations are showing by how they choose to respond to that. And I'm cool to let it stand. I won't win over everyone - only those who want the truth. But those are the only people I care about winning over anyway :)

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 09:40:28 PM »
I just explained why. She's using the membership numbers as proof of support for her actions. By joining that group, I'd be contributing to that.

This is one of those ethics things. If she's so desperate to get this info out, it should be freely available on a website, not being a membership link.

Oh NO, you TOTALLY misunderstand. Some people in that group are just there to selectively screenshot things, not to support me. The group numbers isn't meant to say "here's proof of my support" - It's meant to say "A LOT of people have SEEN the evidence" - because a lot of people are pretending they haven't. this way when people join and see that evidence for themselves, they can be aware that this was something people knew about but CHOSE not to share with them.

Edited. - Becca

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 09:37:50 PM »
It said almost 5300, and it just tipped. anyone IN the group can see it's 5300 even now. (Yes, this thread DID turn into a huge advertisement for my group - apparently a lot of people want the facts - who knew?) I got a LOT of new joins today from people who want the truth. REPOSTING nearly 300 screenshots takes too much time, and I don't feel obligated to do that for people who are willfully ignoring the truth :)

And yes, when I received DEATH THREATS a few months ago, I was advised to unfriend anyone who was friends with the person inciting the death threats. I did explain the reason for unfriending those people, that it wasn't personal, and that I would still be available to them if they needed anything - but for the safety of my family, the change needed to be made.

Some were p*ssed at me. Others understood. However anyone reacted, I don't hold it against them. But I did what I needed to do for my family.

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 09:34:07 PM »
The question then becomes, is buying your way onto one of the BS lists morally acceptable.

It's not morally acceptable. but it's also not happening just because people say it is, so maybe one day we can discuss what actually is happening. :)

In case anyone missed it, you can see for yourself what's actually happening here:

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 09:32:06 PM »
Ethical is an individual author "creating buzz" for themselves with a great book that people choose to buy of their own volition.

Got it. You think cross promotion is unethical, but that doesn't apply to say Book Bub promoting your work for you, only if other authors promote work with you. Correct me if I understood that wrong. No one is getting books outside of their own volition, but if your concern is that it's not ethical to cross-promote or collaborate with other authors, then yeah, we're not going to see eye to eye on that, and I'll agree to disagree with you on that one.

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 09:30:14 PM »
I'm not selectively ignoring, I'm considering the source of those comments. I know a lot of ethical authors and I'll take their word over others whose reputations are...let's say less than stellar.

Then definitely DON'T join this group:

If you want to take someone's word over seeing something for yourself and thinking for yourself, that is your right.

Edited. Please, no more accusations of lying, Rebecca. Our forum decorum does not permit this. - Becca

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 09:27:21 PM »
Then ask for clarification instead of saying I am grouping "all" marketing into the unethical category. Not my stance. Marketing is necessary, manipulation is not.

Agreed. It sounds like we ALL agree that:

Marketing is good.
Gaming the system is bad.

Where we disagree:

Some of us think facts and truth are good, and spreading rumors is bad.
Some people think that's fine. Or at least, that's how it seems.

Now, as for whether or not gaming is actually going on, easy enough to find out when you join the group and see for yourself, instead of basing opinion on speculation and rumors.

If you want to see facts and decide for yourself, you go here >

If you want to make opinions based on rumors that don't even attempt to hide their effort to mislead and hurt others, then don't go there, because you can't unsee the facts. And once you see them, you either have to choose to accept the truth, or you have to choose to be one of the people who pretends you didn't see it, while misleading others.

For those who care about ethics, I can't understand CHOOSING to mislead others. But I know my transparency can make people uncomfortable sometimes, so I get it if you don't want to see what's ACTUALLY going on for yourself.

Edited. - Becca

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 09:21:51 PM »
When you buy advertising, you aren't guaranteed sales. What you're guaranteed is eyes on your books. You could spend $10K on advertising and still get zero sales. When you buy your own books in bulk to influence rank, that's artificial manipulation. You're too smart to play dumb like this, Jim.

First, the money is spent on advertising. Proof is in this group:

Second, gifting copies doesn't guarantee sales. Amazon's own website tells you as much. The reader doesn't have to claim the book. They can get a gift card instead. It doesn't count as a book sale or  toward a bestseller list.

Third, the small number of copies that are SOMETIMES gifted - and not just by sets I run - are not enough to influence rank or sales even if readers DID claim and keep every copy.

Finally, see the first point again. Money is spent on advertising. Proof is in this group:

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 09:19:46 PM »
If you want authors to succeed then encourage them to learn craft, write a great story and earn their success honestly.

PLEASE join my group and see how much I do this. People literally beg me to "just teach me marketing" and time and time again (to their annoyance) I keep saying "No, you need to learn CRAFT *with* that marketing, and I won't teach them just the marketing. I tried recently to start a course like that and was only able to let in about 2-3 people. Take a look around and see for yourself. It actually p*ssed people off that I do this, but I'm super picky about authors learning craft and literally won't take their money if they don't agree to do so. It's ALL OVER THE PLACE in the marketing group.

See for yourself :) Or... don't. Your call. But you and I are SO on the same page about the importance of craft!

Writers' Cafe / Re: Box set scams on Passive Voice
« on: April 28, 2017, 09:15:43 PM »
There is so much hair-splitting going on this thread.

If a publisher has to buy or gift copies of a book to hit a list, whether it's 50,000 or 5,000 or 500 copies, it's still buying books to hit a list. It's still defeating the purpose of a bestsellers list.

That would be called a bestbuyers list.

Or biggestpockets list.

To have meaning, a bestseller list should be premised on being the best selling books in that time period. As in selling to actual readers. Who choose to buy that book because it is appealing to them.

Not because they are paid to buy it. Or because they are gifted it.

We all know what it's supposed to mean. We know that when the publisher buys those 50,000 copies or 500 copies and it is that which allows them to hit a list, that designation is illegitimate.

It really doesn't matter if the NYTs curates its list. That doesn't justify unethical behaviour.

NOTHING justifies unethical behavior. There's a different between creating buzz using free books (same way even trad pubs do) and gifting your way onto a list (which NO ONE has said is ethical.) What's NOT ethical is saying someone who does the former is doing the latter when there's irrefutable evidence that that is not true. But hey, they can take your word for it, take my word for it, or:

1) Call Amazon
2) See screenshots of how those sales are gained for themselves:

Edited. - Becca

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