Author Topic: Week 2, discuss ch11(Theon) to ch20(tyrion), read ch 21(bran) to ch31(cat).  (Read 2722 times)  

Offline jason10mm

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ACOK week 2. Ch11 (Theon) to Ch 20, (Tyrion) location 5400, page 243. Read ch21 (Bran) to ch 31 (Catelyn), location 8083, page 363.

1.    Theon swaggers in to meet his father, Lord Balon Greyjoy, and is immediately put in his place. What is Balon's plan, where is he going to strike?
2.    Ser Jorah tells his story to Dany. Will this change her feelings for him? Will he continue to spy on her for Westeros?
3.    Arya has perhaps the most grim and horrible journey of any character so far. What are these experiences going to do to her as a woman? What purpose does GRRM have to show us this kind of casual violence?
4.    Tyrion shows a level of justice and "fair play" that seems out of character for a Lannister. Is he at risk of falling into the same trap that snared Ned Stark (letting kindness and morality blind him to the threats posed by others) or is he avoiding it?
5.    What is the significance of Bran's "wolf dreams"? If Bran regains his memory of Jaime throwing him from the tower, what impact could this have?
6.    Poor Sansa. How is her relationship with Clegane, "the Hound" developing? Why does he confide in her so much?

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    Offline foreverjuly

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    I'll go ahead and take charge here. Let's see how good my memory is.

    1.    Theon swaggers in to meet his father, Lord Balon Greyjoy, and is immediately put in his place. What is Balon's plan, where is he going to strike?

    He was going to have Theon do some raiding along the coast. Also, it was hilarious when he found out he was groping his sister.

    2.    Ser Jorah tells his story to Dany. Will this change her feelings for him? Will he continue to spy on her for Westeros?

    I think as long as he's in her shadow he'll never really get anywhere with her.

    3.    Arya has perhaps the most grim and horrible journey of any character so far. What are these experiences going to do to her as a woman? What purpose does GRRM have to show us this kind of casual violence?

    Poor Arya, but she's been marked to become the warrior woman of the Starks ever since Jon gave her Needle. The next step is to strip her of all of her naivete, and as a result she really has to endure a lot of horrible things. This is how someone becomes a cold-blooded, remorseless killer, and all of the atrocities she experiences only makes them it more justifiable for her to get revenge. The purpose? Definitely a counterpoint to what we saw in AGOT;this is a society that has fallen apart completely and is ruled only by the sword.

    4.    Tyrion shows a level of justice and "fair play" that seems out of character for a Lannister. Is he at risk of falling into the same trap that snared Ned Stark (letting kindness and morality blind him to the threats posed by others) or is he avoiding it?

    Tyrion as a ruler is very interesting, and it's easy to see how it taxes him as clever as he is. His loyalties to his family, his own interests, and the good of the people are always in conflict. Essentially he's punished for trying to be a good ruler who helps people.

    5.    What is the significance of Bran's "wolf dreams"? If Bran regains his memory of Jaime throwing him from the tower, what impact could this have?

    Hard to talk about this without spoiling anything. After the loss of his legs, it's obviously another kind of capability.

    6.    Poor Sansa. How is her relationship with Clegane, "the Hound" developing? Why does he confide in her so much?

    After hating her in AGOT, Sansa immediately became much more interesting and likable here. At least she was shocked back into playing for the right team, even if she's powerless to do anything about it. Her relationship with the hound is tricky. He treats her nicely because he repulses her, as if he could only trust someone who really has no interest in him.

    Offline VondaZ

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    1.    Theon swaggers in to meet his father, Lord Balon Greyjoy, and is immediately put in his place. What is Balon's plan, where is he going to strike?
    My first thought was perhaps Kings Landing because he wants to strike against the unification of the seven kingdoms to get his crown back and Kings Landing might not be well defended with Tyrion at Harrenhall. But that didn't seem likely as he referred to his target as "not so juicy sweet" and with other armies headed that way, they must be preparing to defend it if necessary. His real animosity seems to be towards the Starks and the Baratheons. Winterfell would also not be well defended, but from the map, it does not appear accessible by boat and Balon is assembling his fleet. With Renly heading to King's Landing, I think Balon may be planning to strike against Storm's End, where Robert hailed from, which is on the coast and therefore accessible by boat.

    2.    Ser Jorah tells his story to Dany. Will this change her feelings for him? Will he continue to spy on her for Westeros?

    I don't see this as changing her feelings for him - I think she has always been fond of him, she has definitely trusted him, but it has never been in a romantic way. I don't have a really good handle on Ser Jorah, as he always has appeared to be loyal to Dany and to serve her well, but we know that he has been providing information about her and is seeking a pardon. It just doesn't quite fit together for me.

    3.    Arya has perhaps the most grim and horrible journey of any character so far. What are these experiences going to do to her as a woman? What purpose does GRRM have to show us this kind of casual violence?

    Arya is my second favorite character because she is strong and clever and intuitive and she rebels against the traditional female role. I have always thought of her as a warrior in the making, and her taking on the role of a boy destined for the wall has given her an opportunity to live that part and gain the experience that a warrior would need - experience she would never get as a girl. After living this role, I don't know if it will be possible for her to ever go back to her place as a "lady" (not that there will ever be a role for her as warrior either - not sure where that leaves her ultimately). The violence shown here is only going to harden her. The violence also makes the Lannister's armies unsympathetic as they are just out to kill and destroy - it doesn't matter who they attack. They want to ravage the land and leave nothing alive behind. This is exemplified by the fact that they take on boys destined for the black - neutral in the conflict and likely crucial to everyone in the future to protect against whatever is coming from the North.

    4.    Tyrion shows a level of justice and "fair play" that seems out of character for a Lannister. Is he at risk of falling into the same trap that snared Ned Stark (letting kindness and morality blind him to the threats posed by others) or is he avoiding it?

    Tyrion is my favorite character because when he is introduced to us, he is portrayed in the worst light - he is a Lannister, he is disfigured, he is pretty much scorned by everyone. He has no real allies. His family would just as soon he not exist. They wouldn't outright murder their own and they give him a place in their family, but they don't hide the fact that they would be pleased if he were killed by someone else. He has this huge hurdle to overcome, and yet the reader grows to appreciate and admire him because he is cunning and insightful but not overly ruthless or self-absorbed. He has survived against the odds due to his wits but has not become completely corrupt. I don't think he is at risk of falling into the same trap that Ned Stark fell in because he is not idealistic, he is practical. He almost seems impartial and thus able to make decisions based on the whole picture, rather than the narrow view that someone emotionally involved might take. I don't completely trust Tyrion, though. He is capable of deception as well as anyone else - I just enjoy it more when he outsmarts the people who think they are his better.

    5.    What is the significance of Bran's "wolf dreams"? If Bran regains his memory of Jaime throwing him from the tower, what impact could this have?

    Bran is trapped in a body that no longer functions and he has no freedom of movement. In the wolf dreams, he is free again. If Bran remembers, he can provide evidence that Cersei's children are not Roberts. It also provides more incentive not to trade Jaime for any kind of peace agreement.

    6.    Poor Sansa. How is her relationship with Clegane, "the Hound" developing? Why does he confide in her so much?

    I still don't have any sympathy for Sansa. She continues to live in this fairy tale world. She pines away waiting for a "knight in shining armor" to rescue her, rather than taking any action on herself. Even when she is offered help, she considers not going (like anything that could happen would be worse than where she is at) or again telling the queen (how could she really consider turning in someone who is trying to help her AGAIN - even if it might be a trap?). She just barely hides her contempt from Joffrey. She should be using her situation to gather information - even if she hasn't anyone to share it with yet. She needs to come up with a plan and play a role and do something.

    I think that Clegane is attracted to Sansa because no one has any real love for him, and now Sansa is in a position where she is surrounded by people who have no real love for her either. Sansa has shown the ability to be sympathetic to him, something he probably has never experienced, so now he has some sympathy for her.

    Offline VondaZ

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    Also, it was hilarious when he found out he was groping his sister.

    Wow - I completely missed this. I will have to read this chapter again. Was this in one of the anecdotes?

    Offline foreverjuly

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    Wow - I completely missed this. I will have to read this chapter again. Was this in one of the anecdotes?

    I hope I'm talking about the right section. It's right as soon as Theon comes home and he starts hitting on the woman who comes to get him. They're riding horses on the way to see Balon and he keeps trying to cop a feel, and Asha keeps brushing him off. Then eventually he figures out that it's his sister.

    Offline VondaZ

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    I hope I'm talking about the right section. It's right as soon as Theon comes home and he starts hitting on the woman who comes to get him. They're riding horses on the way to see Balon and he keeps trying to cop a feel, and Asha keeps brushing him off. Then eventually he figures out that it's his sister.

    That must happen in a different section. Theon's uncle, the priest, comes to meet him when he arrives and brings him to the castle and Helya, the housekeeper (I think), shows him to his room. His sister is away on a ship delivering messages from his father. I had to re-read the chapter to make sure, but Asha hasn't returned yet. But now I am looking forward to this!

    Offline foreverjuly

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    That must happen in a different section. Theon's uncle, the priest, comes to meet him when he arrives and brings him to the castle and Helya, the housekeeper (I think), shows him to his room. His sister is away on a ship delivering messages from his father. I had to re-read the chapter to make sure, but Asha hasn't returned yet. But now I am looking forward to this!

    Aww man, I'm really sorry I spoiled that one for you. Maybe trying to participate in this when I've cruised so far ahead isn't a good idea.

    Offline DYB

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    Aww man, I'm really sorry I spoiled that one for you. Maybe trying to participate in this when I've cruised so far ahead isn't a good idea.

    I like spoilers!  No really; I wish someone would spoil the R.W. for me!  And what happens to Arya.  I'm dreading these things...

    Offline jason10mm

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    No worries, it is a minor thing from just a few chapters ahead. Now if I spoiled that Tyrion strangles Cersei in the next book that would be bad :p

    I think is is a pretty big oversight for Robb to think that Balon will hop to his bidding. But then again, Casterly Rock is supposed to be a massive gold mine (literally, I think) so it is reasonable to think he would agree. The whole lack of naval power in Westeros is puzzling to me. Lots of merchants and plenty of Greyjoy longships, but you'd think the neck would be an easier obstacle to circumvent with just a few ships.

    Offline foreverjuly

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    I like spoilers!  No really; I wish someone would spoil the R.W. for me!  And what happens to Arya.  I'm dreading these things...

    Oh man, the Red Wedding is CRAZY. After Stannis convinces Renly to line up behind him, and they implicate Ned Stark in the death of King Robert, the Starks and the Lannisters are forced to join forces against them. But because Littlefinger abducts Sansa they are forced to bring Bran down from Winterfell to marry Myrcella. Before the wedding, Varys lets it slip to Lord Tywin that Tyrion is harboring a whore in town, but Jaime stands up for his brother when Shae is trotted out to be executed in front of all of them. Tywin's brother Kevan attacks Robb, Cersei strangles Catelyn with red window drapes, and Hodor falls on Joffrey's sword to protect Bran until he crawls away by holding the sword in his stomach until the blood covers Joffrey from finger to shoulder.

    Offline DYB

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    Oh man, the Red Wedding is CRAZY. After Stannis convinces Renly to line up behind him, and they implicate Ned Stark in the death of King Robert, the Starks and the Lannisters are forced to join forces against them. But because Littlefinger abducts Sansa they are forced to bring Bran down from Winterfell to marry Myrcella. Before the wedding, Varys lets it slip to Lord Tywin that Tyrion is harboring a whore in town, but Jaime stands up for his brother when Shae is trotted out to be executed in front of all of them. Tywin's brother Kevan attacks Robb, Cersei strangles Catelyn with red window drapes, and Hodor falls on Joffrey's sword to protect Bran until he crawls away by holding the sword in his stomach until the blood covers Joffrey from finger to shoulder.

    I think you just made that up!

    Edit: I googled - and I know you made that up!  Okay, now I know the Red Wedding.  Crazy indeed.  And now I'm angry at Martin all over again.
    « Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 06:58:57 pm by DYB »

    Offline DYB

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    I'm a bit behind on the reading; have lots of work and no time to read.  I did read a little bit, though, so I can answer the first couple of questions.

    1.    Theon swaggers in to meet his father, Lord Balon Greyjoy, and is immediately put in his place. What is Balon's plan, where is he going to strike?

    It's an interesting meeting!  I felt some sympathy for Theon, to be treated by his father this way.  It certainly wasn't Theon's fault that he was sent off as a hostage to the Starks.  In fact, it was Lord Balon's fault!  But be that as it may, my feelings about Theon are mixed.  I want to like him (he did save Bran), but we just don't know where his loyalties lie.  The earlier chapters make it clear that he didn't feel like one of the family among the Starks.  To me it seemed he was better treated than Jon, but he thinks otherwise.  He never lost sight that he was a prisoner, even though he was treated like a ward.  He says he really only cares for Robb.  I have two guesses about where Balon wants to strike.  Because of the ships it could be Dragonstone.  But he seems evil enough to strike...Winterfell.  He obviously loathes the Starks and the Baratheons, and what better revenge than to attack Winterfell which is completely undefended.  If that's what happens - it would certainly push Theon into the "villain" category.

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    2.    Ser Jorah tells his story to Dany. Will this change her feelings for him? Will he continue to spy on her for Westeros?

    I sort of keep forgetting that Jorah is a spy.  He has treated Dany with nothing but respect and kindness (if you ignore all the spying!  :D )  He's taught her many things instead of just abandoning her to her own devices.  She owes him a great deal.  So where exactly are Jorah's loyalties?  And since he is a spy for Westeros - how come he hasn't told them yet about the dragons?  That would scare them crapless, no?

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    3.    Arya has perhaps the most grim and horrible journey of any character so far. What are these experiences going to do to her as a woman? What purpose does GRRM have to show us this kind of casual violence?

    As others have said, Arya seems to be on her way to becoming a warrior.  These awful and violent experiences can only harden her emotionally and physically.  There are female warriors in that world, so there's precedent for that.  Maybe she will lead the Stark armies (whatever they might be) in the final showdown and regain her family's honor.

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    4.    Tyrion shows a level of justice and "fair play" that seems out of character for a Lannister. Is he at risk of falling into the same trap that snared Ned Stark (letting kindness and morality blind him to the threats posed by others) or is he avoiding it?

    Tyrion is definitely not your typical Lannister.  I don't think he'll fall into Ned's trap because Ned was an insufferable goody two shoes.  Tyrion is not naive and he's not stupid.  Whereas Ned's primary objective was honor - at any cost - Tyrion's primary objective is survival.  If he can do some good in the meantime, that's bonus.

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    5.    What is the significance of Bran's "wolf dreams"? If Bran regains his memory of Jaime throwing him from the tower, what impact could this have?

    There's obviously things Martin is preparing for Bran, but it's impossible to tell what.  Something magical/fantasy-oriented no doubt.

    Quote
    6.    Poor Sansa. How is her relationship with Clegane, "the Hound" developing? Why does he confide in her so much?

    Can't say; didn't get to this!

    Offline foreverjuly

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    I think you just made that up!

    Edit: I googled - and I know you made that up!  Okay, now I know the Red Wedding.  Crazy indeed.  And now I'm angry at Martin all over again.

    Oh no! You must really love spoilers to do something like that!

    Offline DYB

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    Oh no! You must really love spoilers to do something like that!

    I do!  I actually hate suspense!  It's true.  My second read of AGOT was a much more pleasant experience because I knew what was coming.  So I was just able to kick back and enjoy it.  When I'm anxious about what happens next I'm not having a good time.  I get too involved.  I think the only exception to this rule would be an Agatha Christie novel.

    Offline jason10mm

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    For those of you who think Balon might sail for Kings Landing, consult the map again. KL is on the opposite side of Westeros! Lannisport is a juicy target as it is just below the Iron Isles, so it is very understandable that Robb would think it irresistable to the Greyjoys. Indeed,in the Game of Thrones boardgame (just back in print!) a Greyjoy sacking of the Lannister capital is almost inevitable.

    Offline DYB

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    I actually really do NEED to look at the map.  I'm not sure I've seen it at all.  On the Kindle it's not exactly easy, alas!  I was wondering if Greyjoys attacking Winterfell would make sense because I can't recall any references to there being a large body of water near it and Balon is building a fleet.

    Offline jason10mm

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    Re: Week 2, discuss ch11(Theon) to ch20(tyrion), read ch 21(bran) to ch31(cat).
    « Reply #16 on: February 01, 2012, 04:20:37 am »
    Yeah, maps are one of the things the kindle isn't quite up to snuff about. Anyhoo, Westeros is shaped kinda like central america in that it has a vague hour glass shape with a narrow "neck" at the twins, sorta like panama. Westeros is HUGE though, the planet is much larger than Earth, I believe. The Iron Isles are to the west of the narrow region, just above the region of the Trident and Casterly Rock. KIng's Landing is on the eastern side of the continent, so to get there the ironmen would have to sail south around Dorne which would be a long, long trip. Winterfell isn't close to the sea, but it is in the relatively desolate north where a group of men could march inland and not be spotted. South of the neck the entire land is quartered and occupied, too crowded for that type of infiltration. I kinda like this about ASOIAF, there is no no "Forest of Dread" or "Mountains of Shadow" populated with monsters sitting just outside a civilized kingdom. That sort of thing was cleansed a long time ago! The only hostile wildness left is north of the Wall.

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