Author Topic: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)  (Read 3207 times)  

Offline jason10mm

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ACOK Week 3. We will discuss Ch21 (Bran) to Ch 31 (Cat), location 8083, page 363. Read Ch 32 (Sansa) to Ch 45 (Cat), location 10999, page 487 for next week.

1.    We meet Meera and Jojen Reed, children of the infamous Howland Reed, the only survivor (along with Ned) of the battle against Arthur Dayne and several other Kingsguard and presumably one of the few who might know about Jons true maternity (and paternity if you ascribe to the theory that Ned is not Jons father). What do you think about Jojens greendreams?

2.    Catelyn rides to meet King Renly. How does Renly compare to Joffrey, Robb, and Stannis? Is he truly being smart by dawdling or is he just a dandy playing at war? We also meet Brienne Tarth, pretty much the only female warrior in the series and in typical GRRM fashion, she is far from the chainmail bikini clad nymphette that adorns the covers of so many fantasy books  Arya would love to meet her, Im sure.

3.    Craster is one of the few wildings we have met so far. Is he a typical example of the lengths men must go to survive north of the wall? It also appears that he sacrifices his male children to the Others. What do we make of this?

4.    The truth of Maester Pycelle comes out. So much for the vaunted neutrality of the Maesters and now we know why Pycelle has stayed on for so long (he is in bed with Cersei). But who did poison Lord Arryn?

5.    Dany is once again a caged pet. Can she hold on to her dragons?

6.    Who (or what) is Jaqen Hghar? There is a theory out there that he is Syrio in disguise. Remember Arya thought his speech reminded her of Syrio.

7.    While it is explicit in the GOT tv show, the dialogue between Renly and Stannis is one of the more suggestive hints that Renly is gay. Location 7964, she came to me a maid., In your bed she is like to die that way.

Edit- Whoops, overshot by a chapter and spoiled a kinda big moment. Hope none of you new folk checked this thread. Apologies, chalk it up to the damned chapter naming system combined with the loss of persistent locations/pages in the newer kindle updates. Anyhow, for those who saw it, let us refrain from talking about it until next week.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 12:00:18 pm by jason10mm »

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    Offline foreverjuly

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    6.    Who (or what) is Jaqen Hghar? There is a theory out there that he is Syrio in disguise. Remember Arya thought his speech reminded her of Syrio.

    That's really what people think? I really doubt it, and I thought that phrasing style was just a commonality in Braavos. "I will be remembering your name." That kind of thing. Ug, the more I think about it though the more plausible it could be. I'm not sure I would like it if it turned out this was the case. Both seem to be cripplingly honor-bound.

    7.    While it is explicit in the GOT tv show, the dialogue between Renly and Stannis is one of the more suggestive hints that Renly is gay. Location 7964, she came to me a maid., In your bed she is like to die that way.

    And Loras too in the show, right? That really changes things. Is there any indication of Loras's sexual orientation in the books? Especially with all the whoring going on, Loras is surprisingly asexual. To answer the earlier question, I think Renly's dallying is the result of his inability to understand the gravity and the potential costs of the situation he's in. He's definitely got that side of Robert in him, and you could easily see a continuation of the past in his excessive displays.

    Offline jason10mm

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    Oh yeah, the Syrio fans are persistent. Think about it. Assuming Syrio is captured.rather than killed then he could have been given over to the watch. Perhaps the real Jaqen is a corpse in a cell. Anyway, we are books away from getting any real closure on this theory, I just wanted to throw it out there :)

    Hard to say about Loras, even the Renly is gay stuff seems far fetched until the show made it clear. But this kind of reading between the lines.is critical for a lot of martins characterization. I expect Melisandre to be a lot less mysterious in the show as well.

    Offline foreverjuly

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    Oh yeah, the Syrio fans are persistent. Think about it. Assuming Syrio is captured.rather than killed then he could have been given over to the watch. Perhaps the real Jaqen is a corpse in a cell. Anyway, we are books away from getting any real closure on this theory, I just wanted to throw it out there :)

    Both that they would've captured him after he killed like six guys and then that they would've let him go to the Wall after he'd been teaching the traitor Ned Stark's daughter seem highly unlikely to me. Who knows though. Presumably there are quite a number of rugs being set under our feet right now that he can yank up later.

    Offline jason10mm

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    I think folks apply the whistful thinking of "we never saw a body" logic used in soap operas and comics. I think Syrio is dead but I admit the theory is intriguing.

    Offline DYB

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    Oh no I missed a spoiler!!!  >:(

    I'm still way behind on the reading.  But about Jaqen Hghar: I'd love for him to be Sylvio!  He was uncommonly friendly to Arya.  Well, maybe "friendly" is the wrong word, but he did constantly try to speak to her while they were on the road.  And it's not just that we never saw his body; nobody ever said he was killed.  Even when the fact that he killed 6 people was revealed it was never stated that they finally got him.  And it's not as if Martin would shy away from telling us exactly how Sylvio would have been brutally slain.

    Loras does seem to be oddly asexual.  But during the feast that Catelyn is at, she notices that while Renly would pay attention to his pretty young wife it was with Loras that he, Renly, laughed the most.

    Offline jason10mm

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    Re: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)
    « Reply #6 on: February 01, 2012, 04:30:42 am »
    Oh no, it is no spoiler that Syrio theoretically may be Jaqen, it is pure fantasy! Definitely one of the more "out there" bits of speculation. His nature becomes much more clear in the reading for next week. But is sounds like you need to take a "me day" and get caught up :)

    Offline DYB

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    Re: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)
    « Reply #7 on: February 01, 2012, 08:03:44 am »
    Oh no, it is no spoiler that Syrio theoretically may be Jaqen, it is pure fantasy! Definitely one of the more "out there" bits of speculation. His nature becomes much more clear in the reading for next week. But is sounds like you need to take a "me day" and get caught up :)

    Yes, but I wanted a spoiler!!  :D

    I'm guessing since you say you suspect Syrio is actually dead - then he hasn't made a re-appearance through "A Dance with Dragons."  And I also agree with foreverjuly that the Lannisters are not likely to have put him in jail considering he was not only a member of the Stark household, but a fighter.  Think about what they did to Septa Mordane.  Surely Syrio would have suffered a worse fate.  Which means since nobody ever said he was dead he might have escaped, and couldn't be Jaqen, and is out there somewhere.  With Nymeria!  Where the heck is she anyway?  Surely Arya's wanderings around in the wild should have brought out her direwolf by now! 

    Also, as far as Renly - you just can't help but like him!  He seems like a decent sort of fellow; one of the nicer people around.  Him claiming the Throne is a bit odd and he probably doesn't quite understand the implications of what he is doing.  He is not wrong that Stannis would be a terrible King.  From what I've seen of Stannis I think he would be a despot.  Different from Joffrey.  Stannis would be a despot the way a religious fanatic is.  He'd institute something akin to the Spanish Inquisition.  Joffrey is a despot the way a completely amoral/sadistic sociopath is.  Renly would probably be much closer in his rule to Robert's: "let's all have a good time" kind of King.  His wife doesn't seem to be the psychopath Cersei is, but who knows!  And Robb...it's really hard to tell with Robb.  He's in way over his head.  (Hehehe, that's a funny line considering the Red Wedding.  Sorry...)  He doesn't know what the heck he's doing.  (Then again, if you think about it, Stannis may be the only way who has some ideas about what he's doing.  Surely Joffrery and Renly are just as clueless.)

    Offline VondaZ

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    Re: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)
    « Reply #8 on: February 01, 2012, 11:52:45 am »
    Ha ha - I read the spoiler when it was first posted - but I hadn't finished the reading yet - so everything was a spoiler to me. Have to remember not to do that again next time! I am finally caught up.

    1.    We meet Meera and Jojen Reed, children of the infamous Howland Reed, the only survivor (along with Ned) of the battle against Arthur Dayne and several other Kingsguard and presumably one of the few who might know about Jons true maternity (and paternity if you ascribe to the theory that Ned is not Jons father). What do you think about Jojens greendreams?

    Given that Bran and Jojen shared the same dream at the same time and they dream of the same three-eyed crow, I think Bran should take them very seriously - more seriously than he has been counciled. I suspect that the dream is forshadowing the attack against Winterfell by Greyjoy and Bran being caught/stuck there if he doesn't leave before then. The crow tells him to fly, but he cannot - I wonder if by fly, the crow means flee.

    2.    Catelyn rides to meet King Renly. How does Renly compare to Joffrey, Robb, and Stannis? Is he truly being smart by dawdling or is he just a dandy playing at war? We also meet Brienne Tarth, pretty much the only female warrior in the series and in typical GRRM fashion, she is far from the chainmail bikini clad nymphette that adorns the covers of so many fantasy books  Arya would love to meet her, Im sure.

    Renly and Stannis are both stubborn and full of themselves, but the similarities end there. They have an opportunity to work together and accomplish something mutually beneficial, but they cannot work together. I am tired of all the tournaments when there are real battles to be fought. Renly holds a tournament instead of focussing on his mission, Robert holds a tournament for Ned that Ned does not want and the kingdom cannot afford, Joffrey holds a tournament for his name day when there is no one around to compete in it.

    Robb, I don't see as a real king. He was put there by others and mainly as a way to distance himself from trying to dethrone Joffrey, who he believed had the true claim. Had it been known that Joffrey was not the true heir, I don't think Robb would have ever thought about being a king himself.

    Enjoyed the character of Brienne until they ruined her by suggesting that she was in love with Renly and squired to him just to be able to touch him even if others mocked her. I like strong, tough, women when they are not portrayed as needing to be beautiful, but it killed it for me for Brienne's toughness to disintegrate for a pretty-faced dandy wannabe king.
    [/quote]

    3.    Craster is one of the few wildings we have met so far. Is he a typical example of the lengths men must go to survive north of the wall? It also appears that he sacrifices his male children to the Others. What do we make of this?

    Not having seen much of the wildlings yet, I don't know how typical he is. Given that he acts as a friend to the Black, I doubt he is typical. I see his sacrificing his male children to the Others as a way of retaining control over the women more even than of keeping the Others appeased. Without any males around, it would be up to the women to overthrow him.

    4.    The truth of Maester Pycelle comes out. So much for the vaunted neutrality of the Maesters and now we know why Pycelle has stayed on for so long (he is in bed with Cersei). But who did poison Lord Arryn?

    I have had a wild thought a few times in the first book and here as well that it might have been Lysa who actually did the poisoning. There seems to be this discrepancy about whether or not John was going to send her son away and if so, where he was going to send him. I have wondered more than once if Lysa didn't kill her husband so she could run off with her son. She might have been manipulated by someone else wanting John dead for other reasons. Afterwards, she will point her finger at any Lannister that is convenient so long as no one is looking at her. I know that sounds crazy, but Stannis says this about it, "If you step in a nest of snakes, does it matter which one bites you first?" - and that is exactly how I feel about it as well - who cares which one of the conniving backstabbing players actually did the deed - it doesn't really matter in the end - unless it wasn't any of them at all.

    5.    Dany is once again a caged pet. Can she hold on to her dragons?

    I hope so - the romantic in me would like to think so - even if she might lose them temporarily. But who knows.

    6.    Who (or what) is Jaqen Hghar? There is a theory out there that he is Syrio in disguise. Remember Arya thought his speech reminded her of Syrio.

    This has never occurred to me - and I try to look for these kind of plot twists. So if it is true - it comes as a surprise to me. If this is still a theory, I take it the character of Jaqen is still around in future books - which surprises me as I took him for just a passing character that doesn't last long.

    I have also wondered if Syrio is really dead. Partly because when Yoren dies, she goes back to the site and can verify his death with her own eyes, but we never get that verification with Syrio. And Syrio is such a romantic character. The Scarlett Pimpernel lover in my likes the idea of Syrio disguised as a convict, but I don't see Syrio offering to kill three men for her. It just seems too crude for Syrio, even in disguise. I would sooner see Syrio try to help her escape than do that. I do, however, see the possibility that they might have locked him up in the dungeons. They always seemed to misjudge him as just a dance instructor and they may have continued to do so on capture. Not saying they did, but I could see it as being a possibility.

    7.    While it is explicit in the GOT tv show, the dialogue between Renly and Stannis is one of the more suggestive hints that Renly is gay. Location 7964, she came to me a maid., In your bed she is like to die that way.

    I read it that way, but then again, I had read these questions before I got to that quote, so I was looking for it. It could have just been an attack on his manhood, but it really reads as gay to me - especially since Renly didn't take any special offense to that.

    Offline DYB

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    Re: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)
    « Reply #9 on: February 01, 2012, 12:08:43 pm »
    Not having seen much of the wildlings yet, I don't know how typical he is. Given that he acts as a friend to the Black, I doubt he is typical. I see his sacrificing his male children to the Others as a way of retaining control over the women more even than of keeping the Others appeased. Without any males around, it would be up to the women to overthrow him.

    I have had a wild thought a few times in the first book and here as well that it might have been Lysa who actually did the poisoning. There seems to be this discrepancy about whether or not John was going to send her son away and if so, where he was going to send him. I have wondered more than once if Lysa didn't kill her husband so she could run off with her son. She might have been manipulated by someone else wanting John dead for other reasons. Afterwards, she will point her finger at any Lannister that is convenient so long as no one is looking at her. I know that sounds crazy, but Stannis says this about it, "If you step in a nest of snakes, does it matter which one bites you first?" - and that is exactly how I feel about it as well - who cares which one of the conniving backstabbing players actually did the deed - it doesn't really matter in the end - unless it wasn't any of them at all.

    I agree about Craster.  I was thinking the same thing as I read it; that he sacrifices the boys so he has no competition and can just keep his harem all to himself.

    And that is really interesting about Lysa poisoning John Arryn.  I never thought of it, but yes, it sounds very possible.  She's really quite insane and unnaturally attached to her son.  If John was going to send him off to Stannis - a very hard man - she would have freaked out that poor/weak baby would have to face such harshness.  And she's insane enough to have done it.

    Offline DYB

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    Re: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)
    « Reply #10 on: February 01, 2012, 10:34:10 pm »
    BTW, I don't know why but my page and location numbers don't seem to match at all what's in the assignments.  So I get confused sometimes where I should be.  For example, I just finished page 412, Location 8245.  This is the chapter where Tyrion recruits Lancel to spy on Cersei and at the end he came to visit his "concubine" and wakes her up at night.  And to himself admits that he loves her.  (Which, by the way, can't be a good thing for her.  I bet Cersei kills her soon enough.  But I digress.)  The next chapter is Arya, page 413, Location 8247.  Does this match what everyone else has?

    Offline DYB

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    Re: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)
    « Reply #11 on: February 01, 2012, 10:43:26 pm »
    1.    We meet Meera and Jojen Reed, children of the infamous Howland Reed, the only survivor (along with Ned) of the battle against Arthur Dayne and several other Kingsguard and presumably one of the few who might know about Jons true maternity (and paternity if you ascribe to the theory that Ned is not Jons father). What do you think about Jojens greendreams?

    4.    The truth of Maester Pycelle comes out. So much for the vaunted neutrality of the Maesters and now we know why Pycelle has stayed on for so long (he is in bed with Cersei). But who did poison Lord Arryn?

    Jojen's dreams are interesting...  Bran is very defensive, but no doubt he will learn a lot about whatever powers he seems to possess from him.  Jojen tells him to fly.  But, as someone pointed out above, perhaps it means to flee.  To leave Winterfell where he really has no future.  If he stays in Winterfell he will never be anything more than the brother of a King (at best) who is a cripple.  But if he flees - he might discover powers he never realized he possessed.

    As far as Pycelle - I did enjoy what Tyrion did to him!  Obviously Pycelle is swine and deserves to have his head chopped off (along with Littlefinger.  We'll see about Varys.) 

    Here's a bigger question: How do people feel about the Targaryens' claim to the Throne?  I mean, at some point they took the Throne from someone else, no?  They called Robert the Usurper - but is it only a question of how long a family can hold the Throne?  If you hang on to it long enough people think you are entitled to it?  Daenerys certainly thinks she's entitled to the Throne - but why?  And what about the Mad King?  Dany is angry that Robert and Ned destroyed him, but the man was bat[crap] crazy according to almost everyone.  Does Dany think the realm should just make do with a mad despot because he is entitled to be a mad despot?  Robert and Ned went to war with him because he, for whatever reason, demanded that they be killed.  They didn't fancy being killed, so they fought him.  Doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me!  Dany thinks she wants to rule a kingdom full of fat men, pretty maids, and unicorns.  But that is not what the kingdom the Mad King was leading.

    Offline foreverjuly

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    Re: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)
    « Reply #12 on: February 02, 2012, 06:19:27 am »
    Here's a bigger question: How do people feel about the Targaryens' claim to the Throne?  I mean, at some point they took the Throne from someone else, no?  They called Robert the Usurper - but is it only a question of how long a family can hold the Throne?  If you hang on to it long enough people think you are entitled to it?  Daenerys certainly thinks she's entitled to the Throne - but why?  And what about the Mad King?  Dany is angry that Robert and Ned destroyed him, but the man was bat[crap] crazy according to almost everyone.  Does Dany think the realm should just make do with a mad despot because he is entitled to be a mad despot?  Robert and Ned went to war with him because he, for whatever reason, demanded that they be killed.  They didn't fancy being killed, so they fought him.  Doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me!  Dany thinks she wants to rule a kingdom full of fat men, pretty maids, and unicorns.  But that is not what the kingdom the Mad King was leading.

    I think because the Targaryens united the 7 Kingdoms, they have the strongest claim to the throne. It's implicit that everyone is only looking back into history far enough to see that they have their rightful place on the throne, but Daenarys stands head and shoulders above Joffrey, Stannis, and even Robert. Unfortunately with a monarchy system you do get bad eggs in power, but that doesn't mean later generations still don't have that link to power.

    Offline jason10mm

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    Re: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)
    « Reply #13 on: February 02, 2012, 06:31:23 am »
    BTW, I don't know why but my page and location numbers don't seem to match at all what's in the assignments.  So I get confused sometimes where I should be.  For example, I just finished page 412, Location 8245.  This is the chapter where Tyrion recruits Lancel to spy on Cersei and at the end he came to visit his "concubine" and wakes her up at night.  And to himself admits that he loves her.  (Which, by the way, can't be a good thing for her.  I bet Cersei kills her soon enough.  But I digress.)  The next chapter is Arya, page 413, Location 8247.  Does this match what everyone else has?

    You are in the middle of the reading for week 4. These books are very hard to track because the table of content lists numbers while the chapters are just names. It would help if they had "Sansa(V)" indicating the fifth Sansa chapter or something. I list the page and location of the end of the chapter, but I think it varies a bit depending on whether or not I paged forward or back to get to it and what my font size is. Lu's I am not sure if my numbers match up to other book editions. Apologies if I screw them up, but I've checked them as best I could. You should see the effort needed to divide the book into somewhat equal chunks! Definitely where the paper book is superior!

    Any way, read to location 10999 which should be the end of a cat chapter. Ah fudge, I see it is page 497 instead of 487! Dangit! So rest easy, it is definitely me, not you :)

    Offline jason10mm

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    Re: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)
    « Reply #14 on: February 02, 2012, 06:41:27 am »
    What I find interesting about Crastor is that he is the only wildling we really get to see much of and he is a total savage. Osha is another one and even see seems to be more violent barbarian than anything else. The nights watch certainly has a low opinion of them as well. So who are these  wildlings? Are they just parasites that feed off the North and each other or are they a cohesive culture that just happens to live above the Wall? I used to think if them as scots and the wall is Hadrians wall, but it is almost more of a prison exile as depicted in the books. I guess the far north us just too inhospitable for people to live there without some level of raiding on the more well nourished regions of westeros.

    Ugh, am I the only one who wishes there was a ASOIAF dictionary so autocorrect wouldn't mess up every other word?

    Offline DYB

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    Re: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)
    « Reply #15 on: February 02, 2012, 02:11:55 pm »
    I've sort of assumed that the Wildlings are just people who somehow at some point drifted to the outskirts of civilization because they were either criminals (think the Australian settlers!) or just didn't like whatever rule there was in the Seven Kingdoms.  Over time they've established their own rule and order.  Perhaps initially just random tribes out in the wild.  But we know that in recent times they've gotten themselves a King, Mance Rayder.  Who used to be a Black Brother.

    Offline VondaZ

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    Re: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)
    « Reply #16 on: February 02, 2012, 06:06:14 pm »
    I think I kind of expected them to be something like the tribes that Tyrion encountered on the way to and from the Eyrie. I expected them to be more tribal or nomadic. I didn't expect villages and farm animals. I would have thought with the Others around that they wouldn't have been safe settling in one place.

    Offline DYB

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    Re: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)
    « Reply #17 on: February 02, 2012, 10:25:58 pm »
    I think I kind of expected them to be something like the tribes that Tyrion encountered on the way to and from the Eyrie. I expected them to be more tribal or nomadic. I didn't expect villages and farm animals. I would have thought with the Others around that they wouldn't have been safe settling in one place.

    I kind of figured that the Others have been way way waaaay far out until recently.  Their migration closer to the Wall must be a fairly recent occurrence.  And I figure wildlings live beyond the wall, but not as far as the Others.  Now the Others have moved into the wildlings territory.  So the wildlings have to move to the Wall.

    Also, you made a comment earlier about being angry that Brienne is in love with Renly.  I read that section earlier today.  That is something that Cat thinks to herself as she watches Brienne.  Catelyn might be right - or not.  We know so little about Brienne at this point.

    Also, having read the sections with Jaqen Hghar I don't think he is Sylvio.  First, Arya would know.  He couldn't be that changed.  Second, Jaqen Hghar does not in any way resemble Sylvio as a person.  I can't imagine Sylvio volunteering his services as an assassin.  No way.  Not his style.  But I do hope Sylvio is alive somewhere!

    Also...is the second discussion between Bran and Jojen about green dreams in this current week's assignment?  His dreams tell us something about 2 things: what Theon is up to (it's as I feared!) and what Martin might have in store for Bran and his dreams...but I'm not sure if we can talk about it yet!

    Also, I'm a bit confused about Roose Bolton.  Whose side is he supposed to be on?  With all these bannermen it's hard to keep track.  The Lannisters talk of him as if he was an enemy, but then his [illegitimate person] wreaks havock for the Starks.  So who is he supposed to be loyal to again?

    Offline VondaZ

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    Re: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)
    « Reply #18 on: February 03, 2012, 05:56:38 am »
    Also, you made a comment earlier about being angry that Brienne is in love with Renly.  I read that section earlier today.  That is something that Cat thinks to herself as she watches Brienne.  Catelyn might be right - or not.  We know so little about Brienne at this point.

    This is true. I am accepting Catelyn's interpretation on this point.



    Also, having read the sections with Jaqen Hghar I don't think he is Sylvio.  First, Arya would know.  He couldn't be that changed.  Second, Jaqen Hghar does not in any way resemble Sylvio as a person.  I can't imagine Sylvio volunteering his services as an assassin.  No way.  Not his style.  But I do hope Sylvio is alive somewhere!

    Totally agree!

    Also, I'm a bit confused about Roose Bolton.  Whose side is he supposed to be on?  With all these bannermen it's hard to keep track.  The Lannisters talk of him as if he was an enemy, but then his [illegitimate person] wreaks havock for the Starks.  So who is he supposed to be loyal to again?

    I don't always keep the alliances straight, but I believe he is on the Stark's side, but as Ser Jorah told Dany, the lords will always be fighting amongst themselves. Roose wanted the lands and he thought he had a claim, so he took them. Robb is going to have to learn how to keep all the feuding lords pacified and focussed on the important things rather than their own personal agendas.

    Offline jason10mm

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    Re: Week 3 Discuss Ch21(Bran)-Ch 31(Cat), loc 8083, read ch32(sansa)-ch45(cat)
    « Reply #19 on: February 03, 2012, 10:49:58 am »
    Yes, the north (and the far south, as we will see eventually) of westeros is much more unruly than the relatively domesticated center. So Bolton, while a banner man for the Starks, is really held here by force, not by love, marriage, or honor. Same with Balon Greyjoy, while Ned was alive and keeping an eye on him he was quiet, but as soon as he senses a power vacuum he is quick to move.

    I'm not a huge fan of brienne but I think of her as a variant of Sansa. She has the same wishful fantasies but didn't get the looks, so she exploits what gifts she does have. Alas, she is in a GRRM book where she is a freak instead of an Elizabeth Moon series where she would be the heroine :) she also suffers for being in the center of westeros. Had she been born in the north, above the wall, or down in the South I think she would have gotten a much better reception. Maybe she will hook up with Shagga ;)

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