Author Topic: Week 4. Discuss Ch32(Sansa)-Ch45(Cat), loc10999, pg 497, read Ch46(bran)-ch56.  (Read 4372 times)  

Offline jason10mm

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Week 4. Discuss Ch 32 (Sansa) to Ch 45 (Cat), location 10999, page 497, read Ch 46 (Bran) to Ch 56 (Theon), location 13441, page 610. Sorry for all the questions, but the book is kicking into warp overdrive!

1.    Joffrey behaves in an atrocious manner towards Sansa. Will this act finally sever her feelings for him and prompt her to become more proactive? Incidentally we hear that Robb scored yet another major victory against the Lannisters. Are the Lannisters on the ropes?
2.    Something kills Renly. What was it, and who is responsible? Should Catelyn have run off with Brienne or should she have stayed and tried to explain?
3.    Ghost uncovers obsidian weapons covered in a cloak of the Night's Watch. What does this mean? Who left them? Obsidian, for those who might not know, is basically a type of lava rock. Perhaps in this world it is formed from sand melted by dragonfire?
4.    Brann has a dream of seawater flowing into Winterfell. Any thoughts as to what this might mean?
5.    This confused me the first time through: Roose Bolton is a somewhat unruly and vicious bannerman to House Stark. He has no surviving sons, but named his [illegitimate person], Ramsay, as heir, a man even more vicious. The [illegitimate person] had a servant named Reek. This man Reek is the one captured and brought back by Ser Rodrick after they killed Ramsay as he was running away.
6.    Theon shows his true colors by attacking men of the North, apparently those happy go-lucky "Wild Hares" mentioned at location 4300. He is supposed to be raiding the shore, but he has other plans. What are they?
7.    What "stripling...wretched boy..." is Hoster Tully mumbling about when he thinks Cat is Lysa?
8.    I've always liked the descriptions of Qarth because it seems so exotic and strongly resembles the world of Robert Howard's Conan. Quaithe mentions that fire magic has gotten dramatically stronger in the past 6 months. Could dragons really be the cause?

9.    Bronn suggests to Tyrion that life might be better with Joffrey dead and Tommen King. Do you think Tyrion might actually consider this?
10.     Davos hears that Melisandre "soothes" Stannis to sleep. He thinks she is sharing his bed. What do you think? I suspect we will see this quickly answered in the GOT show.
11.    Stannis describes a dream where he was with Renly when he was killed. But he says "...when I woke my hands were clean." What does this mean? What magic does Melisandre possess?
12.    Varys tells the tale of his youth to Tyrion. Do you believe it? It would explain a lot about his actions if he truly does want to just protect the common folk.

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    Offline VondaZ

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    Sorry for all the questions, but the book is kicking into warp overdrive!

    Don't apologize for that! I love lots of questions. Probably can't answer them, but am at least interested in how others do.

    1.    Joffrey behaves in an atrocious manner towards Sansa. Will this act finally sever her feelings for him and prompt her to become more proactive? Incidentally we hear that Robb scored yet another major victory against the Lannisters. Are the Lannisters on the ropes?

    Wow - if her feelings for Joffrey weren't severed before this point, there is no hope for her! I just hope she starts to take her fate into her own hands rather than pray for others to save her.

    I doubt the Lannisters are on the ropes. Things can change quickly and the battles Robb wins don't make me feel like he has won all that much.

    2.    Something kills Renly. What was it, and who is responsible? Should Catelyn have run off with Brienne or should she have stayed and tried to explain?

    It was Stannis' shadow and Melisandre is certainly responsible - more on this in the later question. Catelyn was right to run - no one would have believed her story and most likely wouldn't have even bothered to hear it. Tempers were going to flare and no good would come from sticking around.

    3.    Ghost uncovers obsidian weapons covered in a cloak of the Night's Watch. What does this mean? Who left them? Obsidian, for those who might not know, is basically a type of lava rock. Perhaps in this world it is formed from sand melted by dragonfire?

    I have no clue, but I am interested to hear what others think about this.

    4.    Brann has a dream of seawater flowing into Winterfell. Any thoughts as to what this might mean?

    I think the seawater represents the Greyjoy armies. We have seen how they like to drown their captives in seawater and they are located on islands in the sea.

    5.    This confused me the first time through: Roose Bolton is a somewhat unruly and vicious bannerman to House Stark. He has no surviving sons, but named his [illegitimate person], Ramsay, as heir, a man even more vicious. The [illegitimate person] had a servant named Reek. This man Reek is the one captured and brought back by Ser Rodrick after they killed Ramsay as he was running away.

    Thanks for the clarification. I kept getting them all confused. Was the [illegitimate person] the one who forced the widow to marry him? Or was that the widow's husband's [illegitimate person]? I really mixed all of those characters up.

    6.    Theon shows his true colors by attacking men of the North, apparently those happy go-lucky "Wild Hares" mentioned at location 4300. He is supposed to be raiding the shore, but he has other plans. What are they?

    He is going to try to take Winterfell himself. I am very disappointed in him. I think this will end badly for him. He has no loyalties - not to any person or cause - and just wants to advance himself. At first, he was loyal to Robb, but then he agreed to follow his father, only he is disobeying his father as well to prove himself - but that is only going to prove he can't be trusted. He may be able to take Winterfell - but can he hold it? Not by himself.

    7.    What "stripling...wretched boy..." is Hoster Tully mumbling about when he thinks Cat is Lysa?

    My guess is Littlefinger. I am wondering if Lysa wasn't in love with Littlefinger before she was promised to Jon Arryn. If so, this might further my suspicion that Lysa may have killed Jon. If she still had feelings for Littlefinger, he may have been manipulating her and playing on her insecurities to get her to kill Jon for his own reasons. I am thinking he wanted these wars - although what he wants the outcome to be, I don't know.

    8.    I've always liked the descriptions of Qarth because it seems so exotic and strongly resembles the world of Robert Howard's Conan. Quaithe mentions that fire magic has gotten dramatically stronger in the past 6 months. Could dragons really be the cause?

    Are the dragons the cause or do the dragons exist because of the strength of the fire magic?

    9.    Bronn suggests to Tyrion that life might be better with Joffrey dead and Tommen King. Do you think Tyrion might actually consider this?

    I think he may agree, but I don't think he would do this. His own family thinks things would be better if Tyrion were dead and they wouldn't hesitate to put him in harms way, but so far at least, they haven't actually considered doing the deed. If Tyrion were to consider it, he would somehow be worse than his family - at least in this regard. I would lose some respect for him - as much as I would like to see Joffrey dead myself. I am waiting for that day. I believe it will come eventually - Joffrey is not smart enough to save himself and someone will want him dead eventually.

    10.     Davos hears that Melisandre "soothes" Stannis to sleep. He thinks she is sharing his bed. What do you think? I suspect we will see this quickly answered in the GOT show.

    See below.

    11.    Stannis describes a dream where he was with Renly when he was killed. But he says "...when I woke my hands were clean." What does this mean? What magic does Melisandre possess?

    I think that Stannis' spirit (or something separate from his body) killed Renly while Stannis was sleeping. I think Melisandre has the power to control Stannis in his sleep and thus creates the shadow Stannis that murdered Renly. I don't think Stannis did this knowingly - I would have thought he would have preferred to win in battle, but he suspects the truth.

    12.    Varys tells the tale of his youth to Tyrion. Do you believe it? It would explain a lot about his actions if he truly does want to just protect the common folk.

    Could it be true? Maybe. Am I convinced? No. Varys usually shares truthful but incomplete information, but never information about himself. I wouldn't trust anything Varys says about himself. At the very least, you can count on it being incomplete. I get the feeling that Littlefinger and Varys have somehow been manipulating the fighting and discontent and that is not doing anything but cause trouble for the common folk.

    Offline foreverjuly

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    There are certainly interesting implications if the existence of live dragons in the world influences the magical properties even in remote localities. A lot of what we're seeing in this book is the increase of supernatural elements in what has been largely a story of people. Although dragons are one of the most potent symbols of the fantasy genre for readers and Martin is charging his characters into lots of different magical modes, it's hard to make an explicit connection between the two. I guess it's all up the the individual aesthetic, and I'd prefer it if the dragons and the greendreams and the sorcery and the Others and the pyromancy were not all connected by one thing, but that can be asking a lot from fantasy stories where there's the urge to wrap everything up in a neat bow.

    Offline jason10mm

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    I think Stannis is directly involved in creating and directing the shadows. Given how they are "birthed" I bet he and Melisandre have sex in order to create them. He might be asleep in order to control the shadow and be in denial about the extent of his involvement, but he is wholly responsible for the outcomes.

    My question is whether or not Melisandre could do this type of magic before the dragons were born. I think so, since she is from Asshai and IIRC that is where Mirri Maz Duur learned her blood magic. So while the pyromancers might be getting a boost from dragons, some magic at least has always worked.

    Offline DYB

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    1.    Joffrey behaves in an atrocious manner towards Sansa. Will this act finally sever her feelings for him and prompt her to become more proactive? Incidentally we hear that Robb scored yet another major victory against the Lannisters. Are the Lannisters on the ropes?

    I think Sansa's affection for Joff died with her father.  She even told him about Robb giving her Joff's head as a present.  But she has to keep the act going because whens he lets down her guard - Joff has her beaten.  I'm a bit surprised (not even sure why) that Cersei doesn't keep a closer eye on Sansa and how Joff is treating her.  Since Cesei knows that Jaime's life depends on Sansa's survival - I would have expected her to be a bit more concerned about what Joff does to Sansa.

    As far as Robb's victories - I don't know that they're that big.  It's interesting that Martin does not give Robb a point of view in this book.

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    2.    Something kills Renly. What was it, and who is responsible? Should Catelyn have run off with Brienne or should she have stayed and tried to explain?

    I don't think anyone would have listened to Catelyn.  In the heat of the moment they would have killed her and Brienne.  It actually blows my mind that any of the knights think Catelyn was the assassin.  She's a lot of things - but assassin?  Besides, of all the Kings Renly is probably not the one she'd be killing. 

    From Catelyn's perspective, there's obviously dark magic involved and we can only assume Melinsadre is responsible.  What does Stannis know?  Does his sense of honor allow him to conspire with a maegi the way he seems to?  Or is Melinsandre doing this without Stanni's knowledge?


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    3.    Ghost uncovers obsidian weapons covered in a cloak of the Night's Watch. What does this mean? Who left them? Obsidian, for those who might not know, is basically a type of lava rock. Perhaps in this world it is formed from sand melted by dragonfire?

    I have no thoughts about this either!  I have no idea what the meaning might be...  But it must mean something major since Ghost found it.


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    4.    Brann has a dream of seawater flowing into Winterfell. Any thoughts as to what this might mean?

    I knew it!  Greyjoys are totally going after Winterfell. At first I thought it would be Balon's idea.  He sees an opportunity to strike people he obviously hates and who have kept his son as "hostage."


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    5.    This confused me the first time through: Roose Bolton is a somewhat unruly and vicious bannerman to House Stark. He has no surviving sons, but named his [illegitimate person], Ramsay, as heir, a man even more vicious. The [illegitimate person] had a servant named Reek. This man Reek is the one captured and brought back by Ser Rodrick after they killed Ramsay as he was running away.

    Yes, I was confused by Bolton and where his loyalties are supposed to be at some point also.  (Plus, I googled Red Wedding.)  Yes, Bolton's [illegitimate person] is the one who forced the widow (Hornwood?) to marry him.  Let's also remember that the Bolton sigil is the flayed man.  Friendly bunch, yes?

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    6.    Theon shows his true colors by attacking men of the North, apparently those happy go-lucky "Wild Hares" mentioned at location 4300. He is supposed to be raiding the shore, but he has other plans. What are they?

    I'm also very disappointed in Theon.  He basically has no idea what he's doing!  He returns home and is desperate, really desperate, for his father to approve of him.  And he thinks by striking the Starks and Winterfell he will prove to his father that he's worthy.  Maybe, maybe not.  But at what cost?  The cost of his own honor, though he doesn't see it that way.  I hope it doesn't end well for him!


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    7.    What "stripling...wretched boy..." is Hoster Tully mumbling about when he thinks Cat is Lysa?

    I also thought Littlefinger, though I don't know why Hoster Tully is remembering him now.  That's a very interesting theory about Lysa and Littlefinger.  It might also explain the story Littlefinger is spreading that he took Catelyn's Maidenhood.  I'm certain that's not true (Catelyn's honor would never have allowed it), but he perhaps he just names the wrong sister...  I also wonder if perhaps Lysa's kid could be Littlefinger's and not Jon Arryn's!


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    9.    Bronn suggests to Tyrion that life might be better with Joffrey dead and Tommen King. Do you think Tyrion might actually consider this?

    I'm sure Tyrion agrees, but I also don't think he would kill his own nephew.  Not because Joffrey is Cersei's son, but because Joffrey is Jaime's son!  He hates Cersei, but loves his brother.


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    10.     Davos hears that Melisandre "soothes" Stannis to sleep. He thinks she is sharing his bed. What do you think? I suspect we will see this quickly answered in the GOT show.
    11.    Stannis describes a dream where he was with Renly when he was killed. But he says "...when I woke my hands were clean." What does this mean? What magic does Melisandre possess?

    I like the theory jason10mm presents!  Though again I wonder if Stannis' sense of honor would permit this.  Is he such a hypocrite?

    On the other hand, Stannis says that he will go to his grave remembering Renly and the peach. It's a very moving moment and one wonders why he's suddenly so moved by his brother.  Is it guilt of some sort?  Guilt over what?  Not being nicer to him at that moment or because he's really guilty of something?


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    12.    Varys tells the tale of his youth to Tyrion. Do you believe it? It would explain a lot about his actions if he truly does want to just protect the common folk.

    I keep saying it: I want to like Varys.  But it would be a mistake to trust anyone but a Stark in these books, so I try not to trust Varys too much. 

    Offline VondaZ

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    There are certainly interesting implications if the existence of live dragons in the world influences the magical properties even in remote localities. A lot of what we're seeing in this book is the increase of supernatural elements in what has been largely a story of people. Although dragons are one of the most potent symbols of the fantasy genre for readers and Martin is charging his characters into lots of different magical modes, it's hard to make an explicit connection between the two. I guess it's all up the the individual aesthetic, and I'd prefer it if the dragons and the greendreams and the sorcery and the Others and the pyromancy were not all connected by one thing, but that can be asking a lot from fantasy stories where there's the urge to wrap everything up in a neat bow.

    Yes, I haven't really thought of the magic really being connected before this discussion. I have thought of it more as the world is shifting toward an unbalanced state with disorder, chaos, and new rules. So many things are shifting in this direction: the coming of Winter, the fighting among the kingdoms, the return of the Targaryans and the dragons, the return of the Others, magic moving from the fringes into Westeros, prophetic dreams of importance, etc. I have seen it all more as if someone shook up a snowglobe disrupting the natural order in many ways than a connected cause and effect between one incident and the next.

    Offline VondaZ

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    I think Stannis is directly involved in creating and directing the shadows. Given how they are "birthed" I bet he and Melisandre have sex in order to create them. He might be asleep in order to control the shadow and be in denial about the extent of his involvement, but he is wholly responsible for the outcomes.

    My question is whether or not Melisandre could do this type of magic before the dragons were born. I think so, since she is from Asshai and IIRC that is where Mirri Maz Duur learned her blood magic. So while the pyromancers might be getting a boost from dragons, some magic at least has always worked.

    At first, I thought Stannis was responsible. But after he talked about the dream, it seemed like he didn't know what it meant and while he felt guilty for it, he couldn't find any blood on his hands to prove his guilt. And I don't know whether Stannis would chose this method of defeating Renly. However, after Renly's death, I think Stannis going forward knows what he is doing, even if he isn't ready to admit it. I am ahead now in the reading - and I can't remember which things happened in this reading block and which in the next, so I won't say any more on that.

    Regarding Melisandre and the magic, I have assumed that she has always had this power, but I have not been reading thus far with the idea that the dragons are causing the resurgence of magic, but more that the dragons are just one more example of it.

    Offline VondaZ

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    I also wonder if perhaps Lysa's kid could be Littlefinger's and not Jon Arryn's!

    I hadn't thought of that, but I like it! Robert Arryn realy doesn't seem anything like Jon Arryn (even though we never met Jon Arryn - but just based on what others have said about him). Too sickly and viscious and selfish and petty  - even if he is a child and this is partly his crazy mother's doing.

    I'm sure Tyrion agrees, but I also don't think he would kill his own nephew.  Not because Joffrey is Cersei's son, but because Joffrey is Jaime's son!  He hates Cersei, but loves his brother.

    I didn't realize that Tyrion had strong feelings for his brother. But then again, I have only seen them together at the beginning of GoT before I really understood who they were. He certainly has loyalty to his family, but I have never really felt a connection between Tyrion and anyone else in the book besides Shae.

    Offline DYB

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    I didn't realize that Tyrion had strong feelings for his brother. But then again, I have only seen them together at the beginning of GoT before I really understood who they were. He certainly has loyalty to his family, but I have never really felt a connection between Tyrion and anyone else in the book besides Shae.

    Tyrion acknowledges in AGOT that Jaime was the only member of his family who ever showed him kindness.

    As far as magic - is it me or is basically all magic in the series viewed as bad?  Think of the two maegi, the sorcerers Danny visits (maybe in later reading), the Others, that fire the pyromancers build, giants, etc.  All negative.  So is this Martin's view of magic?  It's all evil?
    « Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 12:54:41 pm by DYB »

    Offline foreverjuly

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    I have seen it all more as if someone shook up a snowglobe disrupting the natural order in many ways than a connected cause and effect between one incident and the next.

    I think that's a good way of putting it, Vondaz.

    Offline VondaZ

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    Tyrion acknowledges in AGOT that Jaime was the only member of his family who ever showed him kindness.

    Good to know - that tidbit didn't stick with me for some reason. It is hard for me to imagine Jaime showing kindness - I keep picturing him dropping a helpless child out of a window. I wonder if there is more to him than I have given him credit for.

    Offline DYB

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    Good to know - that tidbit didn't stick with me for some reason. It is hard for me to imagine Jaime showing kindness - I keep picturing him dropping a helpless child out of a window. I wonder if there is more to him than I have given him credit for.

    It's one of the few good traits he's shown so far.  A few times it is mentioned in connection to Tyrion that Jaime was his only friend.

    I finished the book today, so it's hard to judge already where things come up in the narrative.  I'm guessing Jaime's chat with Catelyn is in next week's reading?  He says some interesting things to her, aside from his vulgarities.

    Offline foreverjuly

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    Yeah, Jaime definitely becomes a more interesting and complicated character than he seems to be in Game of Thrones.

    Offline VondaZ

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    Does anyone have any theories on where Ser Barristan is going to surface? Everyone seems to assume that he is with Stannis since he wasn't with Renly, Joffrey or Robb and he talked about Stannis taking the throne when he was stripped of his office, but we haven't seen any evidence of this. The fact that we haven't seen him yet leads me to believe he is going to surprise us when he does show up. I thought maybe he would go to the Wall, but he has always served a king and the Wall doesn't serve any king. What other options are there? I don't think he would end up with Balon Greyjoy or Lysa Arryn. Viserys is dead and Dany far from Westeros, so where does that leave him? Stannis seems the most likely, but if he were to show up there now, I admit I would be a little disappointed.

    Offline VondaZ

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    One more question - are there any links to maps of the parts of the world outside of Westeros? I have the link from the beginning of CoK and printed out the maps of North and South Westeros, so I can follow what the various Lords of Westeros are up to, but there is nothing about where Dany has traveled and where she is now and where she is headed and nothing about Assai, where Melisandre is supposed to be from. I know these areas are East of Westeros - but not where they are in relationship to each other, how far Dany has traveled, how far she has to go, or what obstacles and locations are in her path. It seems odd that this map is missing from the book.

    Offline DYB

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    Does anyone have any theories on where Ser Barristan is going to surface? Everyone seems to assume that he is with Stannis since he wasn't with Renly, Joffrey or Robb and he talked about Stannis taking the throne when he was stripped of his office, but we haven't seen any evidence of this. The fact that we haven't seen him yet leads me to believe he is going to surprise us when he does show up. I thought maybe he would go to the Wall, but he has always served a king and the Wall doesn't serve any king. What other options are there? I don't think he would end up with Balon Greyjoy or Lysa Arryn. Viserys is dead and Dany far from Westeros, so where does that leave him? Stannis seems the most likely, but if he were to show up there now, I admit I would be a little disappointed.

    I was wondering that too.  People talk about him, so he's got to make an appearance.  But where...if he's not already with Stannis...I really have no idea where he could be. 

    Offline foreverjuly

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    This isn't an invitation for DYB to look it up again, but you will be surprised.

    Offline jason10mm

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    We will see Selmy again. In fact, I think we already have, he is just laying low. We willl talk about it later in ASOS.

    Offline jason10mm

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    I'm not sure we will ever know what connection there is between dragons and magic (at least with certain types of magic). I had not considered that Dany's dragons were born because magic was coming back (with the comet?) rather than their birth boosting magic. Kind of a chicken and the egg puzzle.

    We have to wait a while but Jaime does eventually get more (much more) screen time and we get to know him better. I'm not sure what they are going to do with him on the show is season, can't imagine he'll spend all 10 eps in a dungeon, I suspect some of his off screen actions will gain prominence (Tyrions escape plan, for starters).

    Offline DYB

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    This isn't an invitation for DYB to look it up again, but you will be surprised.

    It's like telling someone not to think of a pink elephant!!!  :D

    Offline DYB

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    We will see Selmy again. In fact, I think we already have, he is just laying low. We willl talk about it later in ASOS.

    Hmm....we've already seen him?  He's not Biter, is he?  ;D   You can't just say something like "...we already have..." and not give us more!!  It's cruel!  >:(

    Offline Marguerite

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    Hello all.  I have been absent from this cite because I just got really busy.  I just finished book three.  I am going to wait until you all catch up to read book four.  I am going to have to table my discussions until then because I know too much now.  Thanks for starting this.
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    Offline Lisa J. Yarde

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    On Jaime, even before I read the books (watched GoT first), I had him pegged as being the second most redeemable of the Lannisters, after Tyrion. Yes, he did drop a child out of a window, but there's an HBO scene where he spoke to Catelyn and just couldn't admit why he'd done such a thing. All for love. His love for his brother and sister is genuine (yes, for the latter it's beyond creepy!) and those two are the only ones who can really get under his skin / get past the exterior he's built up around himself. I'm hoping for a good ending for Jaime in the series, one where he can reconcile the ugly and not so ugly parts of his personality.
     
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