Author Topic: ACOK week 5. Discuss Ch46(Bran)-Ch56(Theon), loc13441, pg610, read to the end!  (Read 1361 times)  

Offline jason10mm

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ACOK week 5. Discuss Ch 46 (Bran) to Ch 56 (Theon), location 13441, page 610, read Ch 57 (Sansa) to the end!
1.      Theons treachery comes to light. Can he hold Winterfell?
2.       Jaqen Hgar reveals an even more sinister ability. Who are the Valar Morghulis and what is in store for Arya? You can see why folks might think he is Syrio, though why he would masquerade as a fencing instructor is unknown.
3.      Dany in the House of the Undying has a massive amount of foreshadowing. Im going to start a whole separate thread for it since there is SO MUCH to talk about. It will be a 100% SPOILER ZONE though, so dont go there unless you have read through ADWD. Im afraid to talk about the visions too much for fear of spoiling things, so you new readers can just speculate wildly :)

 We have a woman mating and being eaten by dwarves, a king with a wolfs head at a banquet of slaughtered men, a nostalgic memory of her past, and a king in a hall of dragon skulls calling to burn everything, the birth of Prince Aegon, his is the song of ice and fire, and finally the dragon must have three heads. Her prophecy is three heads has the dragon, mother of dragons, child of storm; three fires you must light, one for life and one for death and one to love; three mounts you must ride, one to bed and one to dread and one to love; three treasons you will know, once for blood and once for gold and once for love.

4.      There is an interesting conversation between Tyrion and the Alchemist Hallyne about magic and spells working better, he attributes it to dragons being alive again. Do you think dragons are bringing the magic back? Where will this take the series?
5.      Ygritte tells Jon a story about Brandon the Childless. The mention of hiding in the crypts beneath Winterfell bears remembering, as does the bit about the Stark being flayed by one of his own men, a Bolton descendant no doubt! The blue rose shows up here as well.
6.      Does Qhorin Halfhand leave Jon alone knowing hell let Ygritte loose, or does he think the boy will kill her? What do you make of Jons wolf dream where he sees Bran (or is it Summer, or someone/thing else?) in a weirwood tree?
7.      What news from Winterfell? What did Theon do to Bran and Rickon, or to the millers children?
8.      Jamie denies sending an assassin after Bran. Was the dagger won by King Robert? What is Catelyn going to do to Jaime?

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    Offline VondaZ

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    1.      Theons treachery comes to light. Can he hold Winterfell?

    I don't think so. It doesn't take much to storm in and take over a mostly unarmed castle. Eventually someone is going to come to take it away from him. His family doesn't have much love for him and considering he disobeyed his orders, they don't have much desire to step in and help him. Theon has also proven he tends to make bad decisions and thus he will likely be his own undoing.

    2.       Jaqen Hgar reveals an even more sinister ability. Who are the Valar Morghulis and what is in store for Arya? You can see why folks might think he is Syrio, though why he would masquerade as a fencing instructor is unknown.

    Yes, after his transformation, I could better see why people would think he is Syrio. If he is Syrio, than Syrio is also a sort of non-entity and thus anything is possible - we don't really know him at all. I am guessing we have not seen the last of him.

    I didn't realize Valar Morghulis were a people. He said to speak those words to any man from Braavos. I associate Braavos with Dany somehow, but since I don't have a map of the places she has been and I can't remember in what context Braavos is connected to her, I am not sure exactly where Braavos is other than East.

    It is interesting to see that Arya still feels the need to disguise herself after the North men take Harrenhall. Says a lot about who Roose Bolton may turn out to be.

    3.      Dany in the House of the Undying has a massive amount of foreshadowing. Im going to start a whole separate thread for it since there is SO MUCH to talk about. It will be a 100% SPOILER ZONE though, so dont go there unless you have read through ADWD. Im afraid to talk about the visions too much for fear of spoiling things, so you new readers can just speculate wildly :)

     We have a woman mating and being eaten by dwarves, a king with a wolfs head at a banquet of slaughtered men, a nostalgic memory of her past, and a king in a hall of dragon skulls calling to burn everything, the birth of Prince Aegon, his is the song of ice and fire, and finally the dragon must have three heads. Her prophecy is three heads has the dragon, mother of dragons, child of storm; three fires you must light, one for life and one for death and one to love; three mounts you must ride, one to bed and one to dread and one to love; three treasons you will know, once for blood and once for gold and once for love.

    I read this a few times, but it is impossible to know what any of it means until some of the events it foreshadows start happening. Makes me think the other thread might be interesting, but I am avoiding that discussion because I don't want to see any spoilers.

    "Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow" - a reference to Stannis?

    "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness" - it seems like Ned kept having flashbacks of blue flowers with respect to Lyanna, so I immediately think of her and Winterfell. Wall of ice sounds like the Wall. To me, this all leads back to Jon Snow. But there is also the story that Ygritte tells about Bael and that involved the blue flower as well. Makes me think that story has some relevance for Jon. But what this all means still eludes me. At any rate, the blue flower seems to be directly connected to the North and Winterfell and it is odd that in this vision the rose fills the air with sweetness - like this is a positive reflection on Winterfell even though Dany hates the Starks. Of course, if Jon is also a Targaryan . . . .

    4.      There is an interesting conversation between Tyrion and the Alchemist Hallyne about magic and spells working better, he attributes it to dragons being alive again. Do you think dragons are bringing the magic back? Where will this take the series?

    This is the first time that this idea has actually come across to me from the book. It has more weight since supposedly Hallyne does not know about the return of the dragons when he says that.

    5.      Ygritte tells Jon a story about Brandon the Childless. The mention of hiding in the crypts beneath Winterfell bears remembering, as does the bit about the Stark being flayed by one of his own men, a Bolton descendant no doubt! The blue rose shows up here as well.

    I get the feeling this story will be important - but at this time, I don't see how - except that it potentially ties Jon by blood to the Wildlings.

    6.      Does Qhorin Halfhand leave Jon alone knowing hell let Ygritte loose, or does he think the boy will kill her? What do you make of Jons wolf dream where he sees Bran (or is it Summer, or someone/thing else?) in a weirwood tree?

    Qhorin left Jon alone to see what he would do so he would get a better understanding of who he is. The dream is almost like Bran tought him to "transform" into his wolf when he touched him to show him how to open the third eye. So if all the Starks can be connected to their wolves in this way - what does this mean for Sansa - since her wolf is dead? Kind of makes me feel like she is doomed.

    7.      What news from Winterfell? What did Theon do to Bran and Rickon, or to the millers children?

    Theon is telling everyone that he found Bran and Rickon at the old mill and mounted their heads on spikes. He would rather appear cruel but strong than let others know that he let the children escape, which would make him look like a fool. We know that Reke had brought the cloak with the wolf pin, so Theon killed the miller children and dressed them in Bran and Rickon's clothes.

    8.      Jamie denies sending an assassin after Bran. Was the dagger won by King Robert? What is Catelyn going to do to Jaime?

    That seems to be the implication, although what it means, I am not sure. Did Robert then lose the knife? Did Cersei get ahold of it? Not sure why Robert would want Bran dead unless he knew all along the truth and just wanted to cover it up so he didn't have to deal with it. He had a temper, but he also seemed to always want to escape the problems of the throne. Honestly, I don't know what any of this means. I had thought that Littlefinger had hired someone to try to kill Bran just to stir up the tensions and made up the story to finger the Lannisters, but all the emphasis into where the knife actually ended up makes me think something more is going on here.

    I don't know what Catelyn has planned - could she actually kill him thinking that Robb will never trade him for her daughters? Did he say something so terrible to make her want to? Is she going to let him go for some reason (can't imagine why). I can't imagine her killing him as we have not gotten to know him well yet, but I've learned to expect the unexpected. No clue what she will do but can't wait to find out.

    Offline foreverjuly

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    Qhorin left Jon alone to see what he would do so he would get a better understanding of who he is. The dream is almost like Bran tought him to "transform" into his wolf when he touched him to show him how to open the third eye. So if all the Starks can be connected to their wolves in this way - what does this mean for Sansa - since her wolf is dead? Kind of makes me feel like she is doomed.

    I've had similar thoughts about what the implication for losing Lady means for Sansa. If we are going to wade into that kind of symbolic realm, perhaps the only real counterpoint would be the exultation in the ending if she were able to make it there as a pure princess.

    There's more I'd like to say about things, but I'm too afraid I'll be slightly skipping ahead again.

    Offline jason10mm

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    Given how timid Lady was, it makes you wonder if Sansa would have ever displayed and Warg abilities. I just don't think she had it in her. I feel like the Starks mold the dire wolves, not the other way around.

    Offline VondaZ

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    Given how timid Lady was, it makes you wonder if Sansa would have ever displayed and Warg abilities. I just don't think she had it in her. I feel like the Starks mold the dire wolves, not the other way around.

    I do think that the wolves have taken on the attributes of their related Stark, and I find Sansa to be my least favorite Stark and to be weak and dreamy, so it would make sense that she would lose her wolf. But I keep having hopes that she will someday redeem herself, yet without her wolf, it seems unlikely she will ever change. I suppose if she does change, the change would be all Sansa, and that would be something to give her credit for.

    Or perhaps she will just end up the Stark that leaves Winterfell and her wolf heritage behind.

    Still, the Starks seem to be one with their wolves and with Sansa's wolf lost, she seems to be orphaned.

    Offline Lisa J. Yarde

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    On the topic of the Stark kids and their wolves, the personality or behavior of each child is reflected in their pet. Rickon and Shaddydog are always temperamental; Arya and (possibly) Nymeria are fierce. The fate of Sansa's wolf didn't surprise me either - Sansa is too sweet, delicate and lost in a world of her own making. She accepts and adapts in order to survive; I used to think it was weakness but not now. If you watch the HBO series, Lady is meekly accepting of being suddenly confined, just sort of whimpering before Ned does what he has to do. That wouldn't have been the action of any of the other wolves.   
     
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    Offline DYB

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    On the topic of the Stark kids and their wolves, the personality or behavior of each child is reflected in their pet. Rickon and Shaddydog are always temperamental; Arya and (possibly) Nymeria are fierce. The fate of Sansa's wolf didn't surprise me either - Sansa is too sweet, delicate and lost in a world of her own making. She accepts and adapts in order to survive; I used to think it was weakness but not now. If you watch the HBO series, Lady is meekly accepting of being suddenly confined, just sort of whimpering before Ned does what he has to do. That wouldn't have been the action of any of the other wolves.   

    I like how you summarize Sansa.  People call her weak, but I think she's just adaptable in ways none of the other Starks are.  The other Starks are physical beings - and it costs them life and limbs.  Sansa adapts to new situations and survives.  Maybe Jon is the only one who comes close, but he's only half Stark.  Also, in the current book Sansa shows a good deal of will and fire, but she really has very few options.

    Offline VondaZ

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    I like how you summarize Sansa.  People call her weak, but I think she's just adaptable in ways none of the other Starks are.

    I hadn't really thought of Sansa in that light and there is something to be said for that. So far, she seems to have survived in a situation where she could easily have been doomed - but how long she will be able to survive if she doesn't exert enough of an effort on her own behalf. Too much backbone can get you killed in this book, but not enough leads down the same path (I keep thinking of the kid with Arya who wanted nothing but to yield and how he ended up).

    However, the one that I really think of as being adaptable is Tyrion. He seems to accept many of his limitations and acknowledge that there are certain things he likely can never be and so doesn't reach beyond his grasp (in contrast to Renly perhaps?). But he takes the situation he is placed in and use his wits to make the best of it and he does this very effectively. That kind of adaptability I admire.

    However, Sansa doesn't seem to use much of her wits at all and she bends much to easily. If she continues to survive in the manner that she does, well she maintains her integrity for the most part, but she fails to impress me. She survives - good for her - but so what? But I haven't given up all hope. I keep waiting for some kind of epiphany where she will fully blossom into her own - whatever that may be. It will definitely be something different than her siblings.

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