Author Topic: Week 6, ch56(Sansa) to the end!  (Read 1023 times)  

Offline jason10mm

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Week 6, ch56(Sansa) to the end!
« on: February 21, 2012, 09:04:17 am »
Discuss ch 57 (Sansa),  location 13445, page 611, to the end!
1.    Davos senses the trap but the other admirals won't listen. It seems to be a common theme that pride and overconfidence lead to disaster. Is it Davos specifically (a lowborn man) they don't want to listen to, or just any information that might complicate their victory?
2.    Say what you want about Tyrion, but I think he handles himself admirably in the battle. He makes the most of his limited options. He not only rides out himself but he strives to keep Joffrey safe. I think it shows that he would NEVER hurt any of his own family, no matter how poorly they treated him.
3.    Cersei plans to have Ser Ilyn decapitate her and Sansa should Stannis take King's Landing. Do you think she would have followed through with this?
4.    Who put Ser Mandon Moore up to kill Tyrion?
5.    Dany meets Strong Belwas and Arstan Whitebeard. Who are these men? Are they really hirelings of Illyrio and what are their intentions towards Dany?
6.    Arya flees Harrenhall with Gendry and Hot Pie. Is this a wise move? Should she just announce herself to Roose Bolton?
7.    Sansa is released from her betrothal to Joffrey. What is she to do now? Who do you think she will be made to marry?
8.    Theon is captured by Reek, aka Ramsay "the [illegitimate person]" Bolton. How did Theon conduct himself in the limited siege?  Do you think he would have killed the child? Would he have taken the black?
9.    Jon joins the Wildlings. Will he be able to fool them? Can he ever go back to the Wall again? Interesting that the Wildlings call him a warg, does he have the same abilities as Bran?
10.    Bran and Rickon part ways. Hiding in the crypts reminds me of the story of Brandon the Childless from last week. I think it illustrates the value of stories to pass information in an illiterate society, if Theon had learned those stories as well he might have searched the crypts. Where is Bran going?

And we come to a close. Next week we'll have a book wrap-up and discuss character arcs over the first 2 books.

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    Offline VondaZ

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    Re: Week 6, ch56(Sansa) to the end!
    « Reply #1 on: February 24, 2012, 08:00:05 am »
    1.    Davos senses the trap but the other admirals won't listen. It seems to be a common theme that pride and overconfidence lead to disaster. Is it Davos specifically (a lowborn man) they don't want to listen to, or just any information that might complicate their victory?

    My impression was that they didn't think enough of Davos to listen to his council. Whether or not they would have listened to someone else, I don't know. They may have thought they had this won and perhaps wouldn't have listened to anyone.

    2.    Say what you want about Tyrion, but I think he handles himself admirably in the battle. He makes the most of his limited options. He not only rides out himself but he strives to keep Joffrey safe. I think it shows that he would NEVER hurt any of his own family, no matter how poorly they treated him.

    I thought Tyrion was fantastic. I was so disappointed that for all his efforts, he just got thrown into a room with a maester to tend to his wounds. He got no recognition at all and it seemed no one was there even to visit him. The Joffrey thing does emphasize the difference between himself and his father. His father had no qualms about throwing Tyrion in a situation where he would likely die - perhaps hoping he would. Tyrion does not do this, even though he probably believes Tommen would be a better king.

    3.    Cersei plans to have Ser Ilyn decapitate her and Sansa should Stannis take King's Landing. Do you think she would have followed through with this?

    Maybe, but it seemed like when things got bad, Cersei kind of fell apart. Sansa was able to escape to her room and could have run off with the Hound if she wanted.

    4.    Who put Ser Mandon Moore up to kill Tyrion?

    I don't know. It could have been anyone. Cersei? Joffrey? Littlefinger?

    5.    Dany meets Strong Belwas and Arstan Whitebeard. Who are these men? Are they really hirelings of Illyrio and what are their intentions towards Dany?

    As soon as Arstan Whitebeard showed up, I suspected that he is Ser Barristan. Of course, I have been watching for him to show up somewhere and I never expected it would be here - it is such a long distance and how would he even hope to find her. But I guess it kind of makes sense since he did serve the Targaryans first. Just the name Arstan reminds me of Barristan. I am guessing that, if he his Ser Barristan, that he intends to help her get the thrown. I assume his intentions are good - at least I hope so. He seems to have been an honorable man, so I wouldn't expect anything less. Although, if he is Ser Barristan, wouldn't Jorah recognize him?

    6.    Arya flees Harrenhall with Gendry and Hot Pie. Is this a wise move? Should she just announce herself to Roose Bolton?

    Definitely a wise move - especially after seeing what Bolton does to Winterfell. I knew someone would take Winterfell away from Theon and I suspected it would be someone other than Robb - but I didn't really see this coming until it happened. I didn't expect someone from the North to take Winterfell from Theon and Robb.

    7.    Sansa is released from her betrothal to Joffrey. What is she to do now? Who do you think she will be made to marry?

    I read the chapter preview for the next book at the end of this one, so I have been given hints about where this may go and I better not comment. We do know that Catelyn promised her to the Frey's, but somehow I suspect many of those promises will never come to be given the anarchy that is going on in the North.


    8.    Theon is captured by Reek, aka Ramsay "the [illegitimate person]" Bolton. How did Theon conduct himself in the limited siege?  Do you think he would have killed the child? Would he have taken the black?

    Theon just did everything wrong and behaved appaullingly. I am not sure if he would have killed the girl - because doing so would only have destroyed the only leverage he had. I think he would have killed her, though, if he believed it would help him win.

    It did seem like he would have taken the black, and I wish he would have. At least then there might have been some hope of redeeming the character.

    9.    Jon joins the Wildlings. Will he be able to fool them? Can he ever go back to the Wall again? Interesting that the Wildlings call him a warg, does he have the same abilities as Bran?

    I believe he does have the same abilities as Bran, as we saw when Ghost was attacked by the eagle. I have confidence in Jon's abilities in this situation - and I do believe he will be able to go back to the Wall again, as he has never truly left it. But it won't be easy. And perhaps he may not want to - as I am not sure what role he will end up playing with the Wildlings.


    10.    Bran and Rickon part ways. Hiding in the crypts reminds me of the story of Brandon the Childless from last week. I think it illustrates the value of stories to pass information in an illiterate society, if Theon had learned those stories as well he might have searched the crypts. Where is Bran going?

    Don't know.

    Offline foreverjuly

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    Re: Week 6, ch56(Sansa) to the end!
    « Reply #2 on: February 24, 2012, 08:22:56 am »
    Here's my question: Where does RICKON go??

    Offline jason10mm

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    Re: Week 6, ch56(Sansa) to the end!
    « Reply #3 on: February 25, 2012, 06:21:14 am »
    Since he is with Osha I would expect her to run for the wall, but she knows that is too dangerous, so maybe she will try to get him to a friend of the Starks, maybe Howland Reed? I'm not sure she has any kin south of the wall. I half expect Rickon to show up as a stableboy at some remote inn :)

    Offline DYB

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    Re: Week 6, ch56(Sansa) to the end!
    « Reply #4 on: February 27, 2012, 08:18:01 pm »
    I'm sorry I've been MIA lately.  Lots of work!

    Discuss ch 57 (Sansa),  location 13445, page 611, to the end!
    1.    Davos senses the trap but the other admirals won't listen. It seems to be a common theme that pride and overconfidence lead to disaster. Is it Davos specifically (a lowborn man) they don't want to listen to, or just any information that might complicate their victory?

    I think with Davos it's his low birth that places him at a disadvantage.  We have seen this time and again in the series and historically in England (even today to some extent!) it would not have been surprising.  I keep thinking of a line in "Pride and Prejudice" where the Bingley sisters make fun of Mr. Lucas (a baffoon to be sure, but) they say something like: "He's a good kind of man and kept a good kind of shop before his elevation to the knighthood.  Imagine thinking that we would need his assistance in court!"  The "old money" Knights would not take Davos seriously in anything - to their detriment.

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    2.    Say what you want about Tyrion, but I think he handles himself admirably in the battle. He makes the most of his limited options. He not only rides out himself but he strives to keep Joffrey safe. I think it shows that he would NEVER hurt any of his own family, no matter how poorly they treated him.

    I mean...on one hand it is a little silly that Tyrion seems to possess such almost supernatural powers in battle!  But I don't mind it too much because he's a character I want to keep around!  His family does not deserve him.

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    3.    Cersei plans to have Ser Ilyn decapitate her and Sansa should Stannis take King's Landing. Do you think she would have followed through with this?

    Cersei really does kind of fall apart.  It's interesting that she wants Sansa decapitated along with herself.  Why?  What does she care?  And having Sansa killed would doom Jaime for certain.  Perhaps ultimately that's why she wants Sansa killed.  If Cersei isn't around to..."enjoy" him she doesn't want him to live.

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    4.    Who put Ser Mandon Moore up to kill Tyrion?

    My first thought it was Cersei.  Just something she would do.  She stole the woman she thought was his lover.  She would stop at nothing.  She also seems to have tried everything she could to keep him incapacitated when he was hurt.  But I guess Littlefinger is another good suspect.  Or heck, it could have been Varys also!

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    5.    Dany meets Strong Belwas and Arstan Whitebeard. Who are these men? Are they really hirelings of Illyrio and what are their intentions towards Dany?

    Since it was mentioned in an earlier thread that we have already seen Ser Baristan...I assumed one of these men would have been him!  But Joran should have recognized him.  Plus, why would Barristan suddenly find himself helping Danny?  He's known of her existence for all these years and has never attempted to assist her.  And he wanted to serve Joffrey - until Joffrey and Cersei threw him out.  So if he does change sides he doesn't do it for a truly noble cause.  He just does it because his last master fired him.  Is he for hire to the highest bidder?

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    6.    Arya flees Harrenhall with Gendry and Hot Pie. Is this a wise move? Should she just announce herself to Roose Bolton?

    Well, the Boltons' sigil is a flayed man.  Obviously these are not nice people.  Roose treats Arya decently.  But as a servant girl he probably doesn't give her much thought.  If he knew she was a Stark...  The Boltons are obviously not to be trusted, as evidenced by the actions of Bolton's [illegitimate person].

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    7.    Sansa is released from her betrothal to Joffrey. What is she to do now? Who do you think she will be made to marry?

    Good question.  What is she to do now, but stay low.  I wonder if her life is in more danger now that she's not betrothed to Joffrey.  If before Tyrion could tell Joffrey that he must be nice to Sansa because she is to be his queen - what excuse is there now?  She's nothing to him, so Joffrey can abuse her as much as he likes.

    Quote
    8.    Theon is captured by Reek, aka Ramsay "the [illegitimate person]" Bolton. How did Theon conduct himself in the limited siege?  Do you think he would have killed the child? Would he have taken the black

    Theon is what one might call a moron!  He has no idea what he's doing.  He's so desperate for power and to prove himself to his father that he just throws himself into the first bad idea he has, without truly thinking about what he's doing.  Reek also knows Theon did not kill Bran and Rickon.  This is all bad news for Theon.  And frankly, it's what he deserves.

    Quote
    9.    Jon joins the Wildlings. Will he be able to fool them? Can he ever go back to the Wall again? Interesting that the Wildlings call him a warg, does he have the same abilities as Bran?

    He will have to go to the Wall again, though he might have a hard time convincing Mormont and the others that he's not a traitor.  But he has one friend there among the wildlings, so no doubt he'll get through it.  Not sure about his abilities as a warg.  Martin explores them with Bran, but it's something new for Jon.

    Quote
    10.    Bran and Rickon part ways. Hiding in the crypts reminds me of the story of Brandon the Childless from last week. I think it illustrates the value of stories to pass information in an illiterate society, if Theon had learned those stories as well he might have searched the crypts. Where is Bran going?

    I'm really stunned by how badly Martin treats the Starks.  (And I know it's going to get much worse!)  If I ever meet him I will kick him for it.  Now separating the two children.  I have no idea where they could be heading.  My guess is Bran is heading into the woods.  And Rickon is heading somewhere into the mainland.  Where they will end up...who knows.

    And where is Nymeria?!  Arya has been on the run for a while.  Why hasn't Nymeria found her?

    Offline jason10mm

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    Re: Week 6, ch56(Sansa) to the end!
    « Reply #5 on: February 28, 2012, 04:39:47 am »
    "Cersei really does kind of fall apart.  It's interesting that she wants Sansa decapitated along with herself.  Why?  What does she care?  And having Sansa killed would doom Jaime for certain.  Perhaps ultimately that's why she wants Sansa killed.  If Cersei isn't around to..."enjoy" him she doesn't want him to live."

    You know, I never thought of that but that is a REALLY good insight into Cersei! If she knew she was going to get captured by Stannis (and of course killed) she might very well try to die in a manner that assures Jamie's death as well.

    As for Ser Mandon Moore, I don't think it was Cersei. She took Alayala because she thought that allowed her to CONTROL Tyrion, so why would she then try to kill him, especially in the heat of battle? I think Moore was either looking taking advantage of an opportunity to bump of a man he personally disliked, or that he was working for JOFFREY. Think about it. Tyrion constantly humiliates and insults Joffrey. Moore could very well be under orders from the King, or at least think that if he did kill Tyrion he could try to get a reward from Joffrey. Which, BTW, I think would be a his head on a spike. Even if Joffrey did order him to do it, no way he would let him live.

    Sansa is in an interesting position. She is basically the only surviving heir to Winterfell after Robb since everyone now thinks Bran and Rickon are dead, and Arya has been missing for months. So while she is no longer useful as a bride for Joffrey, the Lannisters will still see great value in her worth in a marriage to place their own puppet over the North, assuming they can find a way to kill or capture Robb, of course.

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