Author Topic: Jesus may be the "reason"...  (Read 29577 times)  

Offline Bacardi Jim

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Jesus may be the "reason"...
« on: December 17, 2008, 11:21:48 pm »
...but he has nothing to do with the "season."

Get over it, folks.

Near as scholars can determine, Jesus (and there is a consensus that he existed) was born in late September or early October.

There are two reasons why we celebrate it during this season:

1) The early Christians were Jews.  They already had a minor holiday/miracle they celebrated at this time of year.  Perhaps you've heard of it?

2)  The early Jewish/Christian missionaries found themselves up against lots of pagans who already had a year-end celebration of the Winter Solstice (Dec. 21) as the end of the old year, as it was the shortest day of the year.  They found it easier to make converts if rather than doing away with their thousand-of-years-old heathen celebration, these missionaries worked it in as a part of the New Christian Faith.  Adapting the "miracle" of Hanukkah to incorporate Christianity and still allow pagans to celebrate their ancient rituals made a perfect mesh.

People were celebrating the Winter Solstice and end of the year looooooong before Jesus was born.  Lying about when he was born just made things... you know... easier.

Jesus may be the reason, but it is Jews, Pagans and the earth's natural period of revolution around the Sun that are purely responsible for making it the "season."



« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 11:38:30 pm by Bacardi Jim »
At first Ford had formed a theory to account for this strange behavior. If human beings don't keep exercising their lips, he thought, their mouths probably seize up.
After a few months' consideration and observation he abandoned this theory in favor of a new one. If they don't keep on exercising their lips, he thought, their brains start working.

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    Offline thejackylking #884

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #1 on: December 18, 2008, 12:09:31 am »
    Actually if you follow the time line of the Bible Jesus was born during tax/census time which back in those days as it is now was done during the spring.  Also every christian holiday has pagan roots because as Jim said it was easier to convert pagans by taking over their holidays.  If you look at most of the traditions of our holidays they have nothing to do with christianity.  Even the days of the week are named after norse gods.  Sunday and Monday are named after the sun and moon.  Tuesday is named after Tyre the norse god of justice. Wednesday is named after Odin the king of the gods.  Thursday is named after Thor.  Friday is named after Freya Odins wife, and Saturday is named after Sutyr a fire giant who is Odins brother. 
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    Offline Bacardi Jim

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #2 on: December 18, 2008, 12:21:19 am »
    jackyl:  While we're on the same page, the tax/census (as I understand it) was done in the fall, after the harvest.  Thus allowing the maximum government income.  I've read some theories that Jesus was born in the spring, but in my own opinion, the September birth seems more likely to me.

    I don't totally discount a spring birth.  It actually falls in line more with the ideal timeline of a census.  Lotsa babies conceived in September. ;)  But you don't tax a people after they've used up their winter stores.

    Historical evidence on this is split and widely varied.  The majority seem (from what I've read) to come down to a date around September 30.

    But who knows?

    The main point is that you see where I'm coming from.  And agree in principle (if not season) with me.  And I'm grateful for that.  I thought there were one or two other people out there who might see where I was coming from, and you weren't one of the folks I expected to hear from.

    It's nice to meetcha!  My name's Jim. :)

    « Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 12:23:18 am by Bacardi Jim »
    At first Ford had formed a theory to account for this strange behavior. If human beings don't keep exercising their lips, he thought, their mouths probably seize up.
    After a few months' consideration and observation he abandoned this theory in favor of a new one. If they don't keep on exercising their lips, he thought, their brains start working.

    Offline Teninx

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #3 on: December 18, 2008, 12:24:33 am »
    Excuse us all to Noel. We'll sing our Carols in December and you guys can run through the crowd telling us we're too late in the year.  ;D

    Offline Bacardi Jim

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #4 on: December 18, 2008, 12:40:36 am »
    Excuse us all to Noel. We'll sing our Carols in December and you guys can run through the crowd telling us we're too late in the year.  ;D
    I have to see a giant billboard from the single most currently active (posts per/day average) member on the entire forum telling me constantly that "Jesus is the reason for the season."

    I was trying to lend a little perspective.

    I love Christmas.  And I'm not even a Christian anymore.

    Our tree is brightly lit.  I sing both Christian and secular carols... enthusiastically.  Even in the shower.  I believe that Christmas is the most glorious and magical time of year... and that real magic is possible (due to the belief of millions of the deserving) during this time of year.

    If I can do all that, surely you can accept that Jesus wasn't necessarily born on December 25.  Can't you?  And that we don't need the lie shoved down our throats here on KB?
    At first Ford had formed a theory to account for this strange behavior. If human beings don't keep exercising their lips, he thought, their mouths probably seize up.
    After a few months' consideration and observation he abandoned this theory in favor of a new one. If they don't keep on exercising their lips, he thought, their brains start working.

    Offline thejackylking #884

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #5 on: December 18, 2008, 12:54:07 am »
    jackyl:  While we're on the same page, the tax/census (as I understand it) was done in the fall, after the harvest.  Thus allowing the maximum government income.  I've read some theories that Jesus was born in the spring, but in my own opinion, the September birth seems more likely to me.

    I don't totally discount a spring birth.  It actually falls in line more with the ideal timeline of a census.  Lotsa babies conceived in September. ;)  But you don't tax a people after they've used up their winter stores.

    Historical evidence on this is split and widely varied.  The majority seem (from what I've read) to come down to a date around September 30.

    But who knows?

    The main point is that you see where I'm coming from.  And agree in principle (if not season) with me.  And I'm grateful for that.  I thought there were one or two other people out there who might see where I was coming from, and you weren't one of the folks I expected to hear from.

    It's nice to meetcha!  My name's Jim. :)



    Glad to be able to suprise you.  Also you do realize that december was originally the 10th month of the year.  Catholics changed the new year from March (spring solstice) to January in order to honor the Roman god Janus.  Janus was the 2 faced god.  1 face looking back over the past and 1 looking to the future.  Thus the tradition of looking over the past year and making resolutions for thupcoming one.
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    Offline KBoards Admin

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #6 on: December 18, 2008, 12:57:55 am »
    I have to see a giant billboard from the single most currently active (posts per/day average) member on the entire forum telling me constantly that "Jesus is the reason for the season."

    I was trying to lend a little perspective.

    I love Christmas.  And I'm not even a Christian anymore.

    Our tree is brightly lit.  I sing both Christian and secular carols... enthusiastically.  Even in the shower.  I believe that Christmas is the most glorious and magical time of year... and that real magic is possible (due to the belief of millions of the deserving) during this time of year.

    If I can do all that, surely you can accept that Jesus wasn't necessarily born on December 25.  Can't you?  And that we don't need the lie shoved down our throats here on KB?

    Easy now, Jim.

    It's traditional to celebrate Christ's birth on December 25. Someone having that saying on their sig is hardly shoving a lie down your throat - even if it might be historically inaccurate. Y'er splittin' hairs!!
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    Offline Elijsha

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #7 on: December 18, 2008, 01:14:16 am »
    i read post alot but i must not be reading sigs at all cause i have not seen this lol. this just something to spout off about/vent or what?
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    Offline Bacardi Jim

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #8 on: December 18, 2008, 01:57:16 am »


    Easy now, Jim.

    It's traditional to celebrate Christ's birth on December 25. Someone having that saying on their sig is hardly shoving a lie down your throat - even if it might be historically inaccurate. Y'er splittin' hairs!!

    They (Christian KB members) get to put up pro-Christ billboards and commercials with impunity, and without you saying a word about it..
    I've tried to be literate, educational and non-discriminatory.  And bring an equality to the "I can't prove a thing I believe in" rhetoric.

    Non-believers deserve equal time.  If Angela and Dori and others get to spam us all with pro-Christ messages on an hourly basis, then surely there is a way for those of us who believe otherwise to respond.  Isn't there?

    There was no doubt that this was a religious discussion when you read the topic.
    At first Ford had formed a theory to account for this strange behavior. If human beings don't keep exercising their lips, he thought, their mouths probably seize up.
    After a few months' consideration and observation he abandoned this theory in favor of a new one. If they don't keep on exercising their lips, he thought, their brains start working.

    Offline Marci

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #9 on: December 18, 2008, 02:20:30 am »
    Actually if you follow the time line of the Bible Jesus was born during tax/census time which back in those days as it is now was done during the spring.  Also every christian holiday has pagan roots because as Jim said it was easier to convert pagans by taking over their holidays.  If you look at most of the traditions of our holidays they have nothing to do with christianity.  Even the days of the week are named after norse gods.  Sunday and Monday are named after the sun and moon.  Tuesday is named after Tyre the norse god of justice. Wednesday is named after Odin the king of the gods.  Thursday is named after Thor.  Friday is named after Freya Odins wife, and Saturday is named after Sutyr a fire giant who is Odins brother. 

    Thanks, Jackylking -

    I have wondered where the names of the week come from, and now I know!  I also like the info you gave about the month of January, too.

    Harvey,

    Bacardi Jim has a very valid point.  There is very little "Christ" to do with "Christmas".  I have been in churches where very devout believers were astonished to learn what Jim & Jackylking have stated here. 

    I, too, have been put off by some very large and prominent signs and symbols in one's signature line and/or avatar.  I finally decided to turn them all off.   Added benefit of that is it there are more posts per page now for me to read ;)

    While it is indeed not being "forced" on him, it is very hard to ignore unless you decide to do what I did.  There is not much you can do between seeing it all or seeing none, from what I can tell of the options available in your profile.

    Marci

    Offline thejackylking #884

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #10 on: December 18, 2008, 02:59:45 am »
    Thanks I'm a font of trivia.
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    Offline Leslie

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #11 on: December 18, 2008, 03:43:32 am »
    Jim,

    I have a signature that expresses my opinion on an issue that some here might find objectionable. Are you going to call me out on that?

    I don't particularly enjoy the holiday season. I spend alot of time trying to manage my mood (I tend to get depressed), keep the spending under control, and just keeping an even keel in my life. This task is not made easier because we live in a society that wants to shove Christmas down my throat at every opportunity, beginning with decorations in stores in October, endless ads on TV, music on the radio, etc etc. I guess a signatures of a few KB members are so far off my radar screen that I barely notice them, much less let them bug me.

    That said, thanks for the info on the days of the week, holidays, taxes and so on. I didn't know some of that info.

    Here's something that has always bugged me: the Feast of the Immaculate Conception is December 8. That would lend support to Jim's theory of a September birth. When I was younger and started figuring things out, I never understood how these dates were supposed to work. Mary was either pregnant for 2 1/2 weeks or 12+ months. Huh?

    L

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    Offline Bacardi Jim

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #12 on: December 18, 2008, 03:51:02 am »
    Leslie: I thought it was obvious by now that I support the desire of any two loving people to declare their love for each other and be married in the eyes of the IRS.
    At first Ford had formed a theory to account for this strange behavior. If human beings don't keep exercising their lips, he thought, their mouths probably seize up.
    After a few months' consideration and observation he abandoned this theory in favor of a new one. If they don't keep on exercising their lips, he thought, their brains start working.

    Offline Leslie

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #13 on: December 18, 2008, 03:59:09 am »
    Leslie: I thought it was obvious by now that I support the desire of any two loving people to declare their love for each other and be married in the eyes of the IRS.

    Yes, it is.

     :)

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    Offline Teninx

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #14 on: December 18, 2008, 04:11:58 am »
    I have to see a giant billboard from the single most currently active (posts per/day average) member on the entire forum telling me constantly that "Jesus is the reason for the season."

    I was trying to lend a little perspective.

    I love Christmas.  And I'm not even a Christian anymore.

    Our tree is brightly lit.  I sing both Christian and secular carols... enthusiastically.  Even in the shower.  I believe that Christmas is the most glorious and magical time of year... and that real magic is possible (due to the belief of millions of the deserving) during this time of year.

    If I can do all that, surely you can accept that Jesus wasn't necessarily born on December 25.  Can't you?  And that we don't need the lie shoved down our throats here on KB?

    There must be a Nativity Scene somewhere in your town that you can picket.

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #15 on: December 18, 2008, 04:15:32 am »
    Actually if you follow the time line of the Bible Jesus was born during tax/census time which back in those days as it is now was done during the spring.  Also every christian holiday has pagan roots because as Jim said it was easier to convert pagans by taking over their holidays.  If you look at most of the traditions of our holidays they have nothing to do with christianity.  Even the days of the week are named after norse gods.  Sunday and Monday are named after the sun and moon.  Tuesday is named after Tyre the norse god of justice. Wednesday is named after Odin the king of the gods.  Thursday is named after Thor.  Friday is named after Freya Odins wife, and Saturday is named after Sutyr a fire giant who is Odins brother. 
    Another interesting note, the days of the week are named for a different set of gods in the "Romance" languages. Mars, Mercury, Juno/Jove, Venus, and Saturn. They still use the moon for Monday, but substitute Domingo or overseeing god as Sunday.

    This information saved Jim's and my sanity while playing a computer adventure game. A puzzle involved in the game required the player to match the god to the day of the week. We forgot that the game was originally written in French, and it just did not make sense using Norse (English) gods to fit the days. Thank goodness the explanation came to me while I slept and for my 2 yrs. of high school French.

    Offline chobitz

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #16 on: December 18, 2008, 04:35:13 am »
    *ahem* I am not a theologian but I play one on TV  :D

    If we want to go deeper.. there is a theory that Constantine was a shrewd leader. He worshiped Mithra and was not a Christian at all. So he changed the rules of Christianity to fit Mithraism (um is that a word..it is now!) including going to services on SUNday as Mithra was a SUN god. Jesus and Mithra share too much of a coincidence. Both were born to a virgin for instance..

    Anywho back on topic Maggie..

    I don't mind sigs. I love Leslie's for instance (oh and BTW I wear a white knot here in the armpit of the bible belt and LOVE to see certain Christians squirm when I explain why I wear it). Even though I do not think Jesus is the reason for the season I don't find it offensive at all.

    BUT I do find people who refuse to say Happy Holidays(or correct those who do) because a certain ass wrote a book about a so called 'war on Christmas' offensive ::) Christmas isn't the only winter holiday you know..


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    Offline thejackylking #884

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #17 on: December 18, 2008, 04:40:24 am »
    The catholics changed the sabbath to Sunday as a display of power.  To prove that they could.  They also changed a lot of other things.  Needless to say if you look at religious history it could be called stranger than fiction.  Way to many things to discuss here with to much ability to tick people off.
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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #18 on: December 18, 2008, 04:46:27 am »
    The History Channel has produced several shows about different holidays. They always seem to mention how Pagan rites were co-opted by the Catholics. (It goes much further than has been mentioned.) The shows are quite informative and illuminating. The stories take on some very different meanings when you see the original rites and rituals.

    Offline Wisteria Clematis

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #19 on: December 18, 2008, 04:46:40 am »
    I, too, have been put off by some very large and prominent signs and symbols in one's signature line and/or avatar.  I finally decided to turn them all off.   Added benefit of that is it there are more posts per page now for me to read ;)

    While it is indeed not being "forced" on him, it is very hard to ignore unless you decide to do what I did.  There is not much you can do between seeing it all or seeing none, from what I can tell of the options available in your profile.

    Marci

    I'd like to go on record as saying that I find the prominent Christian symbols and messages in signature lines as being rather offensive also. In the interest of keeping peace I have not complained, but I do find it very heavy-handed and sometimes resent the fact that I either have to see it constantly or, as Marci said, turn all of them off altogether. I wish we could find a way to compromise and keep peoples religious affilations off of KB.

    Offline Jeff

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #20 on: December 18, 2008, 04:59:19 am »
    Id like to go on record as saying that the only time Im offended on this board is when someone says something hurtful or insulting to or about others. What possible harm can Leslies white knot or Sailors "pray for our troops", or whomevers "Jesus is the reason" do to anyone? Life's too short to bicker over trivialities.

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    Offline Betsy the Quilter

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #21 on: December 18, 2008, 05:07:42 am »
    We have gone through this in my own family which has quite divergent beliefs that run the gamut and has had to find ways to coexist.  It's a learning process and there are invariably some bumps in the road.  I expect that can happen here if we want it to badly enough.  In our family, our respect for each other got us by the facts that we didn't and don't agree with the beliefs.  Hope we can do that here...of course, it helped that we had to have T'giving dinner together every year.

    BTW, I'd like to point out that it's perfectly possible to be a Christian and acknowledge that all the points made here are true.  I'd like to introduce you to my sister-in-law Peg, the Presbyterian minister...wait, she's not on Kindleboards...oh, well, trust me, she knows and agrees with just about everything I've read here.

    Peace of the season.
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    Offline robin.goodfellow

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #22 on: December 18, 2008, 05:16:48 am »
    Quote
    Thanks I'm a font of trivia.

    Actually, Jackylking, I believe you may be a "fount" of trivia.

    I am also not offended by signatures or avs, but have found this entire discussion fascinating.

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    Offline Wisteria Clematis

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #23 on: December 18, 2008, 05:24:43 am »
    We have gone through this in my own family which has quite divergent beliefs that run the gamut and has had to find ways to coexist.  It's a learning process and there are invariably some bumps in the road.  I expect that can happen here if we want it to badly enough.  In our family, our respect for each other got us by the facts that we didn't and don't agree with the beliefs.  Hope we can do that here...of course, it helped that we had to have T'giving dinner together every year.

    BTW, I'd like to point out that it's perfectly possible to be a Christian and acknowledge that all the points made here are true. 

    Of course. I agree completely that it is possible for people of all faiths to coexist peacefully. I am just saying that it is easier for that to happen if folks with a particular religious belief do not constantly put their beliefs in other peoples faces. I won't belabor this, I really don't want to be seen as a troublemaker. I'm just saying.....

    Alternatively, if I start using a pentagram in my signature line I would expect that would be allowed without comment from the mods as well.

    Offline drenee

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    Re: Jesus may be the "reason"...
    « Reply #24 on: December 18, 2008, 05:26:12 am »
    I try to respect everyone's uniqueness.  If we all believed the same thing, and all held to the same truths, how we would learn and grow and become better people.  The great thing about living in a free country is having the freedom to celebrate the season in whatever way gives us peace and comfort.  I too come from a family of very diverse beliefs.  But we are all very happy that we have one time of year where the work world semi-stops to give us some time to enjoy one another.  

    Leslie, I understand your emotions at this time of year.  I go through the same thing.  This year I found decorations out beginning in September.  That is way too long for a one day event.  Too many years I have made decisions based on outside pressure rather than what I really felt I wanted to do.  

    Again, I'm just happy to live where I have the freedom to celebrate this time of year however I feel appropriate.
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