Author Topic: A New AMS Thread  (Read 100581 times)  

Offline CassieL

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Re: A New AMS Thread
« Reply #800 on: August 06, 2018, 01:45:10 pm »
Edited to say: Sorry guys. Based on new ownership at this site and their response to legitimate author concerns I've chosen to withdraw from participation here.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 11:50:32 am by Cassie Leigh »

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    Offline MichaelRyan

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #801 on: August 06, 2018, 02:34:36 pm »
    Running Product Display ads.

    Anyone have any idea what the viable minimum number of products an ad has to target to get traction?
    Or does it depend?

    I ran some ads using Amazon's category feature, but it was too broad. I was getting a decent number of clicks, but not enough sales to justify the ads continuation. I wonder why Zon doesn't allow targeted products in these ads to show up with stats like in the keyword ads.

    So, since the broad categories was too broad, I've tried running three different approaches:

    One, lots of keywords (or better, targeted products). I think I've got a few with close to the limit (which I think is 750.....)
    Two, only keywords tied to a specific writer (ie their catalogue the best I can find using the search function) some of these only have 10 targets.
    Three, something in the middle of this where I end up with maybe 100 books targeted (ie using two authors catalogues).

    So far it's too early to tell if I'll get any impressions.

    And, finally, I have a question about running ads for multiple books in a series. Does anyone have any good experiences running multiple SP ads for a series where you've got the same keywords and same ad copy for books 1 - whatever....?

    I realize there is going to be some cannibalization going on, however, if the ROI is good, it's good, and I can't seem to get enough impressions (so far) with just advertising book one in a series.*

    * in other words, I have two similar SP ads going for two series and one is getting 10x the impressions (I used the same methodology for both).

    I think the lower impressions is because the genre is more competitive, so I want to run ads for books 2 and up to see if I can force more eyeballs simply by offering Amazon more chances to run my stuff.

    Thoughts?

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    Offline R. C.

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #802 on: August 06, 2018, 02:39:41 pm »
    I started reading this thread from the beginning.   Yep, read every page up to page 12 (Mid-Dec 2017).  I had to stop reading, the gray cloud of depression was growing with each comment and post. 

    Jump ahead to page 34, (Mid-May 2018 - I think) and the gray cloud of disappointment was omnipresent.

    First: Cassie Leigh rocks!   Other posters are good but Cassie is spectacular. 

    History: I splashed a comprehensive ad campaign the weekend before the July 4th holiday.  Splashed means, many platforms, many specials, lots of free stuff to read.   The campaign was successful.  Comparatively speaking, the number of units sold and pages read is tiny but I have readers now.   I received my first royalty check! 

    My FB following is now sorta large.  Up from nothing is still small but it is a start.   The primary goal, to create a following, was met.  The secondary goal, to create follow-on readers, was met.   

    To maintain the momentum I received from pre-holiday campaign, I tried AMS again.

    After reading the thread, and reviewing the the current AMS AD results, there is but one conclusion: AMS is broken. 

    AMS is too hard to use.  It does not provide enough information to easily determine which ADs are successful.  Micro targeting is non-existent.  Even with the Machete add-on, for reporting and analysis, understanding the AD delivery process is almost impossible.  Using hundreds of keywords is a shotgun approach that results in more confusion and maintenance overhead that is unnecessary.   (Unnecessary if you can accurately target your market.)

    In summary, thank you to all who have participate in this thread.   The amount of knowledge conveyed is phenomenal. 

    Now... Back to what worked and try and pull a few more sales from old ad copy. 

    Cheers,
    Ruairi
    « Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 02:49:26 pm by Ruairi »

    Offline MichaelRyan

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #803 on: August 06, 2018, 02:49:52 pm »
    Since Machete was mentioned....

    I got this a month ago.  I'm not even sure if I'm using it....what good does knowing all this tiny micro level stuff matter?

    I'm not sure if I'll keep it around and pay for it as I don't see what I'm getting out of it.

    Is there something here I'm missing?  Some super helpful feature?

    I mean, I go to an SP ad and run through the keywords....bad ROI? turn off.....good ROI? leave on...

    What else is there to do?

    Never say never, except on Tuesdays.
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    Offline R. C.

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #804 on: August 06, 2018, 03:40:33 pm »
    Since Machete was mentioned....

    ...what good does knowing all this tiny micro level stuff matter?
    ...
    I mean, I go to an SP ad and run through the keywords....bad ROI? turn off.....good ROI? leave on...

    What else is there to do?

    If you can accurately target the audience, narrow the options to the highest probability of buying, you reduce the time requirements for ROI experimentation.

    Example 1: With the FB campaign, I knew my YA shorty stories were being downloaded by English speaking women ages 15-33.  I had excluded men and non-English speakers and hit the target on the first attempt. 

    Further, for those of us for which this is an avocation, not a vocation, time is limited.   Experimentation and campaign refinement is necessary, and prudent, but it takes precious time.  The closer you are to the intended market, the more likely the results are to be positive. 

    Cheers,
    Ruairi

    Offline R. C.

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #805 on: August 06, 2018, 03:50:42 pm »
    ... is only one-half of the AMS ad placement game, and not the best half.

    Exactly!  Super Bowl ADs are the most expensive because they get the most eyeballs.  They are, however, notoriously bad for ensuring sales.   Ever watch Jeopardy?  Who has the last ad before coming out of commercial for Final Jeopardy? 

    Jeopardy is the #3 syndicated TV show in the U.S which is why it is the lead in to the #2 show: The Wheel of Fortune.   The median age of Jeopardy viewers: 62.4.  This explains the massive commercial block between the Final Jeopardy category and the start of The Wheel.   They are paying premium AD rates to reach a specific demographic. 

    The last AD before Final Jeopardy?  GEICO.   Why?  Because people are invested and the 10 million weekly viewers want to see the question and who will win. 

    Demographics are the core, the life of, and the bane of marketing.

    Cheers,
    Rauiri

    Sources: http://thestrategicretreat.com/8-facts-about-jeopardy/  and https://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/sdsdskdh279882992z1/syndicated-tv-ratings-jeopardy-dr-phil-live-with-kelly-michael-lead-talkers-for-week-ending-april-5-20/

    Offline weigle1234

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #806 on: August 08, 2018, 08:58:11 am »
    AMS is the poorest business model I have ever come across - totally unfathomable.

    During my 30+ years in the mail order business, I was able to nail everything down - totally predictable.

    All that was necessary was to procure legitimate mailing lists; which is more art than science.  The vast majority of lists are garbage but, once legit lists were obtained, they were like owning money machines.

    With AMS, the BIG question is: why do they do things the way they do?  I cannot attribute it to incompetence, but can imagine all sorts of nefarious motivations.



    Offline R. C.

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #807 on: August 08, 2018, 09:05:56 am »
    AMS is the poorest business model I have ever come across - totally unfathomable.

    During my 30+ years in the mail order business, I was able to nail everything down - totally predictable.

    All that was necessary was to procure legitimate mailing lists; which is more art than science.  The vast majority of lists are garbage but, once legit lists were obtained, they were like owning money machines.

    With AMS, the BIG question is: why do they do things the way they do?  I cannot attribute it to incompetence, but can imagine all sorts of nefarious motivations.

    Agreed, something odd is going on...

    Cheers,
    Ruairi

    Offline BillyDeCarlo

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #808 on: August 09, 2018, 10:27:28 am »
    With AMS, the BIG question is: why do they do things the way they do?  I cannot attribute it to incompetence, but can imagine all sorts of nefarious motivations.

    Because even though Amazon started in books, their other areas of business (cloud, selling other crap) makes the book ad business a mere bag of shells. It's a pittance to them, a dalliance. Therefore, a red-headed stepchild that gets little attention. That's my theory, anyway.


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    Offline MichaelRyan

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #809 on: August 09, 2018, 11:53:04 am »
    So anyone have an idea on the metric to use for the following situation.

    I have a keyword (and author) that is getting 1 in a 1000 clicks.
    The author is in Kindle Unlimited.
    The book I'm advertising is in KU as well.
    The books, however, aren't in the same sub-genre (they are close enough to know there's cross-over...but what percentage is anyone's guess).

    The clicks have hit 23 without a sale.

    About ten bucks in spend.

    At what point do I decide that his keyword is not profitable?  I think one sale in about 20 is probably profitable, but I'm not sure how many clicks past 20 without a sale is enough to say that it's failed. Seems like a complex math problem.

    If most of the big readers are in KU and they are the ones clicking...then it goes to reason I'm probably making money even though no sales show...but this is guessing.


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    Offline CassieL

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #810 on: August 09, 2018, 12:18:15 pm »
    Edited to say: Sorry guys. Based on new ownership at this site and their response to legitimate author concerns I've chosen to withdraw from participation here.
    « Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 11:50:53 am by Cassie Leigh »

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    Offline C. Rysalis

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #811 on: August 10, 2018, 10:25:03 am »
    So I don't understand what's going on with my AMS and hope someone can help me 'get' it.

    I've had two ads (for the two books in my sig) running for two and a half days now, and even though I chose relevant keywords for the genre (powers, heroes etc etc) and my bids seem high (0.42$ on most) I'm getting a very small number of impressions. One ad has accumulated 1500ish impressions over those two and a half days, the other less than 300.  :o The keywords for both are similar but not identical.

    The daily budget for each is 3$. I'm not even remotely close to reaching it with that amount of impressions. I've had two clicks from one keyword that generated 100ish impressions, that's it.

    Can any of you experts help me out?

    Olivia Rising

    Offline R. C.

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #812 on: August 10, 2018, 11:17:50 am »
    So I don't understand what's going on with my AMS and hope someone can help me 'get' it.

    I've had two ads (for the two books in my sig) running for two and a half days now, and even though I chose relevant keywords for the genre (powers, heroes etc etc) and my bids seem high (0.42$ on most) I'm getting a very small number of impressions. One ad has accumulated 1500ish impressions over those two and a half days, the other less than 300.  :o The keywords for both are similar but not identical.

    The daily budget for each is 3$. I'm not even remotely close to reaching it with that amount of impressions. I've had two clicks from one keyword that generated 100ish impressions, that's it.

    Can any of you experts help me out?

    C. Rysalis - I feel your pain.

    I am experiencing an identical process with AMS.    Your numbers are shockingly similar to my AMS numbers for two ADs.   The difference is my bids are much lower but I am increasing them slowly.   The bid increase, several increases over several days, has had no effective toward more impressions. 

    To check my AD copy and process, I started a similar AD on FB a couple of days ago.   As of this morning, I had to pull back (narrow) the demographics to improve market results.   The FB AD started on Aug 8th, and, as of a few minutes ago, has 39k impressions,  1.3k clicks, for about $13 USD.

    Cheers,
    Ruairi


    Offline C. Rysalis

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #813 on: August 10, 2018, 11:30:37 am »
    C. Rysalis - I feel your pain.

    I am experiencing an identical process with AMS.    Your numbers are shockingly similar to my AMS numbers for two ADs.   The difference is my bids are much lower but I am increasing them slowly.   The bid increase, several increases over several days, has had no effective toward more impressions. 

    To check my AD copy and process, I started a similar AD on FB a couple of days ago.   As of this morning, I had to pull back (narrow) the demographics to improve market results.   The FB AD started on Aug 8th, and, as of a few minutes ago, has 39k impressions,  1.3k clicks, for about $13 USD.

    Cheers,
    Ruairi

    Interesting that your results are so similar... how are Facebook ads these days? Has FB implemented self-serve ads yet, or changed the requirements for them? Because the Facebook ad discussion we had not that long ago sounded kind of frightening. I might give them a try if the doom and gloom from that thread didn't actually become a reality, though.  :)

    Olivia Rising

    Offline MajesticMonkey

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #814 on: August 10, 2018, 12:10:53 pm »
    Does AMS now starts counting paperbacks in the ACOS?

    I'm asking because I have several sales where the math doesn't add up.

    For example: 1 click = $15 sales Or 2 clicks = $15 in sales.

    In both cases my ebook is priced at $3 and my CS paperback at $15.

    (Obviously with 1 clicks and 1 sale of an ebook, the max sale could only be $3.)

    Thoughts?

    Offline R. C.

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #815 on: August 10, 2018, 01:16:25 pm »
    Interesting that your results are so similar... how are Facebook ads these days? Has FB implemented self-serve ads yet, or changed the requirements for them? Because the Facebook ad discussion we had not that long ago sounded kind of frightening. I might give them a try if the doom and gloom from that thread didn't actually become a reality, though.  :)

    I am not sure what you mean with the question of "self-serve" ADs.   

    Basically. I used the FB ADs Manager portal, specified a campaign, created an ad set, and then created the ad.   I capped the total spend and the amount of spend per day.    The best part for me is the geography and demographics.   I know my clicks are hitting my target market.   I check the countries every couple of days and exclude any that are not likely candidates for a lot of pull-through.   The proof is in KU pages and numbers of downloads.

    A few other points of relevance re: the FB AD process:

    1) A by-product of so many impressions is it is building an fan base that is associated with my book's FB page. 
    2) Set to: English speaking only and exclude India, China, Russian, etc.   India will suck up the daily spend with little pull-through, even at $.99 USD.
    3) The FB ADs link out to the KDP page for the books.   Sales and download are not through FB.

    Cheers,
    Ruairi

    Offline C. Rysalis

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #816 on: August 10, 2018, 01:19:22 pm »
    Thanks so much, Ruairi. That was very helpful.  ;D

    Olivia Rising

    Offline R. C.

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #817 on: August 10, 2018, 01:36:37 pm »
    Thanks so much, Ruairi. That was very helpful.  ;D

    You are very welcome.  I have to be nice, Courtney G. threatened me with the gom jabbar if I am not nice. 

    Cheers,
    Ruairi

    For those wondering: http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Gom_Jabbar and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrCfivcQe48

    Offline CassieL

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #818 on: August 10, 2018, 01:38:42 pm »
    Does AMS now starts counting paperbacks in the ACOS?

    AMS have included paperback sales for at least a year or more if not forever.

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    Offline MajesticMonkey

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #819 on: August 10, 2018, 10:00:02 pm »
    AMS have included paperback sales for at least a year or more if not forever.

    Really? (They didn't used to count paperback as far as I know.) Guess I'm slow to catch up on that then. And thanks for the info. It means a lot. :)

    « Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 10:01:54 pm by MajesticMonkey »

    Offline Evanesco

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #820 on: August 11, 2018, 01:27:18 am »
    So I don't understand what's going on with my AMS and hope someone can help me 'get' it.

    I've had two ads (for the two books in my sig) running for two and a half days now, and even though I chose relevant keywords for the genre (powers, heroes etc etc) and my bids seem high (0.42$ on most) I'm getting a very small number of impressions. One ad has accumulated 1500ish impressions over those two and a half days, the other less than 300.  :o The keywords for both are similar but not identical.

    The daily budget for each is 3$. I'm not even remotely close to reaching it with that amount of impressions. I've had two clicks from one keyword that generated 100ish impressions, that's it.

    Can any of you experts help me out?

    I had a call with Amazon yesterday (to talk about my UK based AMS ads) and their suggestion that ads should be run for a minimum of 2 weeks to give any meaningful numbers, with a month being better. Dont know if this applies to non-UK ads as well though.

    Offline thanksfortheadvice

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #821 on: August 11, 2018, 01:59:23 am »
    I had a call with Amazon yesterday (to talk about my UK based AMS ads) and their suggestion that ads should be run for a minimum of 2 weeks to give any meaningful numbers, with a month being better. Dont know if this applies to non-UK ads as well though.

    In my limited experience this sounds about right for US as well. I've never been able to determine anything from a few days of data. For one thing, the numbers update at an irregular pace. A sale will show up on KDP hours, if not days before AMS acknowledges it. The impressions and clicks have been known to decrease. It's an odd system for sure. I usually record data at two week intervals.

    Offline Rafael Pombo

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #822 on: August 11, 2018, 02:13:40 am »
    I had a call with Amazon yesterday (to talk about my UK based AMS ads) and their suggestion that ads should be run for a minimum of 2 weeks to give any meaningful numbers, with a month being better. Dont know if this applies to non-UK ads as well though.

    I've heard people mentioning similar numbers concerning the time an ad should run before it gets really effective. "Three weeks or so," I remember a lady who claimed to have great experience and success with AMS saying. She also recommended that people try the automatic targeting, which may seem weird since I always hear from other authors that's not a very good option because you can't choose the best keywords.

    But guess what: my first ad was an automatic and it still gives me better results (higher conversion rate) than the manual one I created some time later.

    Go figure.

    I guess the automatic targeting is more intelligent than I am when it comes to thinking up the keywords that are relevant to my book. Too bad I don't know what those keywords are.

    (I'll admit the automatic targeting ad has a higher bid and I haven't added too many keywords to the manual targeting one, though. ;D But I don't know if that explains the noticeable higher conversion rate of the automatic one.)


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    Offline C. Rysalis

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #823 on: August 11, 2018, 03:40:03 am »
    Is there any disadvantage to running an automatic ad alongside a manual one (for the same book)?

    Olivia Rising

    Offline Evanesco

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    Re: A New AMS Thread
    « Reply #824 on: August 11, 2018, 03:52:03 am »
    Is there any disadvantage to running an automatic ad alongside a manual one (for the same book)?

    Not that I can see. They do take a while to get going though - I have an automatic ad alongside manual ones - the automatic one is my best performing by far, but it took over 2 months to get there. Im inching up the spend on it to see if I can scale it up.

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