Author Topic: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP  (Read 9584 times)  

Offline Going Incognito

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Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2018, 11:50:27 am »
But then why would Amazon run the ads that highlighted the page flip features and encouraged people to read using page flip? I remember a number of people saying that when they went to read the latest (at the time of their post) EL James book, the page flip ad came up. Telling authors nobody reads that way (even though our readers tell us they do) while openly encouraging customers to use it for reading seems rather duplicitous, to put it nicely.

For the same reason they designed a system that pays by the page, then designed software that 'by design' doesn't count pages. For the same reason they take back 50% of page reads based on 'bot activities,' blaming and punishing the author for things out of the author's control. For the same reason that all these decimated 'bot reads' being found somehow never makes a difference in the page rate. For the same reason their ToS basically says 'a page is what we say it is.' The same reason they constantly 'fix' the KENPC on books. For the same reason that their last announcement 'clarifying in more detail how we measure pages read' didn't clarify anything. (https://www.kdpcommunity.com/s/article/How-we-measure-pages-read?language=en)

Cause the system is rigged and the house always wins.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 01:31:54 pm by Going Incognito »

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    Offline Going Incognito

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #26 on: June 23, 2018, 12:05:27 pm »
    Holy cow. They finally admitted it. I bet whoever wrote you that answer will be out of a job today.

    "We do not see any material amount of reading happening within this feature, but we will continue to monitor it closely." --If Page Flip prevents them from seeing the pages read while in Page Flip mode, OF COURSE they wouldn't "see" all the pages read in Page Flip mode. What a total crock. I'm pretty sure Page Flip was eating 50% of my page reads before I finally gave up and left KU. Other authors have reported 75%. Total ... okay, I guess I can't use the colorful language that would fit here perfectly. So I'll settle for... AMAZON: IF YOU ARE GOING TO CHEAT US OUT OF PAGE READS HOW ABOUT PUTTING A NOTE ABOUT THAT ON YOUR KDP PAGE WARNING AUTHORS YOU DON'T REALLY PAY FOR PAGE READS?

    I'm thinking of sending them an email that while they designed a feature so they wouldn't see page reads (and therefore wouldn't have to pay for them) I could statistically see my missing page reads pretty clearly and I would like to be paid thank you. Maybe we should all send in such emails.

    Amazon's contract with us says they will pay for page reads. They have finally admitted they don't. They owe us money.

    Of course it's a crock.

    Quote
    We do not see any material amount of reading happening within this feature
    Of course, their opinion of what a 'material amount' is and ours differ, as we'd kinda like to get paid for every page, but them? Meh. Ask Jan if she thinks getting paid for 4 out of 29 pages read is 'material.'

    Notice that they never say that they can't see (and therefore pay) for pages read in page flip. They only say that they don't count for payment. They could pay us for them... but they won't.


    From the response they gave to the OP:
    "I am sorry to inform that the pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read."
    They never say that they can't see/estimate/calculate it:

    Quote
    We are monitoring Page Flip usage data

    So they can see/count it- they just "do not count toward [payment]" cause:

    Quote
    it is not being used for reading in any material way.

    Hmmm, not material to them, anyway. But:

    Quote
    We will continue to monitor for any changes in reader behavior.

    So, there's that to comfort yourself with.  ::)
    « Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 01:26:14 pm by Going Incognito »

    Offline doolittle03

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #27 on: June 23, 2018, 12:07:20 pm »
    For the same reason they designed a system that pays by the page, then designed software that 'by design' doesn't count pages. For the same reason they take back 50% of page reads based on 'bot activities,' blaming and punishing the author for things out of the author's control. For the same reason their ToS basically says 'a page is what we say it is.' The same reason they constantly 'fix' the KENPC on books. Cause the system is rigged and the house always wins.

    This. It took awhile for this truth to sink in, but it's sunk now.

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    Offline Going Incognito

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #28 on: June 23, 2018, 01:40:36 pm »
    Oh, I forgot the best part. They're caught in a catch 22 of their own making. They can't fix page flip because if they do- people are right back to being able to skip thru the whole book again to get paid for flipping to the end without reading- the same loophole that they just supposedly fixed when being read out of page flip.
    As soon as pages read in page flip mode do count? The flip ahead scammers are back.

    Offline MyraScott

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #29 on: June 23, 2018, 03:41:05 pm »
    Page Flip is designed to make it easy to explore and navigate in books while automatically saving your place, and that is how customers are using it.  We checked for effects on pages read before launching Page Flip, and investigated it again to re-confirm that there is no impact. We do not see any material reading volume happening within this feature, but we will continue to monitor it closely.

    I love how anyone believes that things are used only the way the developer intended for them to be used.
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    Offline Going Incognito

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #30 on: June 23, 2018, 04:36:00 pm »

    I'm used to liars and cheats who pretend they aren't lying and cheating. Having someone just admit that's what they're doing right out in the open feels...kind of icky. Kinda makes me feel like I'm going to need some more Lysol wipes.

    And right out in the open it is. (I snipped it, obviously)

    1 Agreement Acceptance.
    ...If you don't accept the terms, you are not entitled to use the Program...

    2 Agreement Amendment.
    ...We reserve the right to change the terms of this Agreement at any time in our sole discretion...

    2.3 KDP Select Fund.
    ...We will set, in our discretion, the criteria for determining how much of your content is read and how to determine the proportionate allocation of the fund...


    I love how anyone believes that things are used only the way the developer intended for them to be used.


    IKR? It's like they've never met 'people' before.

    Offline 39416

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #31 on: June 23, 2018, 07:37:11 pm »
    Why would they fix it?

    1)  It's no coin out of their pocket.  The monthly pool doesn't change, just the distribution of the monthly pool.


    IMO it is coin out of their pocket. If Amazon had to pay for 50% to 75% more page reads per month, out of their pool, they would almost certainly have to chip in more of their money in order to keep the page rate high enough to keep on attracting authors into KU. It is therefore very much to Amazon's financial benefit to not report all the actual page reads to us authors (and therefore not have to pay any more money into their pool on account of them).

    It's all about the money. With corporations and so much else in life, it almost always is.
    « Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 07:39:16 pm by loraininflorida »

    Offline KelliWolfe

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #32 on: June 23, 2018, 09:04:37 pm »
    There is ZERO accountability for Amazon with KU. With actual sales, they have to keep accurate records because they can get audited and end up in all kind of legal hot water if they get caught fudging the books. And it's relatively easy to track because there are records of the transactions with the end user and the payment processors. With KU Amazon can make up any numbers it likes and we have no choice but to believe them - even when we know that they're just making sh*t up - because they are the only ones with the data.

    Telling authors that you will pay them by pages read when your system is not capable of determining the number of pages actually being read is black letter fraud, regardless of what it says in the TOS. Amazon gets away with it because they're Amazon and they can. We put up with it because they're Amazon, and that's where most of us get at least half of our money every month.

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #33 on: June 23, 2018, 10:34:54 pm »
    I would do my reading in page flip if it's a non-fiction book I use for research, and read only the chunks that are crucial to whatever it is I'm trying to learn. I can imagine a lot of very fast readers use this feature to read, or even to skip to scenes that are interesting to them (sex, murder, or whatever).
    Not paying authors for page flips is a bit like not charging entrance fees at a museum if you skipped right to the Greek nudes.

    Offline KelliWolfe

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #34 on: June 23, 2018, 10:51:01 pm »
    Not paying authors for page flips is a bit like not charging entrance fees at a museum if you skipped right to the Greek nudes.
    "Your margin is my opportunity." Jeff Beelzebezos

    If Amazon can find a way to screw you to keep a few pennies for themselves, they will. Always. This is the same company that keeps the money from sales from known plagiarized works rather than returning it to the customer or giving it to the legitimate authors. This is the same company that uses the information from their 3rd party sellers' accounts to undercut them and drive them out of business. "Ethics" is a four-letter word to Amazon.

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #35 on: June 23, 2018, 11:02:16 pm »
    If Amazon can find a way to screw you to keep a few pennies for themselves, they will. Always.

    Yep. And it doesn't surprise me anymore. Amazon doesn't care much about anything but profit, but so do other large corporations. If I could, I would take my business elsewhere, but that's a luxury I can't afford. Hum... There are enough indies in this world to collectively move away from Amazon and start their own online shop. It could be HUGE, maybe even dominate the eBook market if done right. But I feel super old just thinking about the organisational effort LOL

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #36 on: June 24, 2018, 12:28:22 am »
    Wow, you guys are still acting shocked about this?

    We discussed this same issue over a year ago. If you don't want to be taken advantage of you either go wide or find a way to protest this. But if you just keep acting shocked about what we've known for a long time that doesn't seem productive.

    Offline Avery342

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #37 on: June 24, 2018, 04:27:01 am »
    Wow, you guys are still acting shocked about this?

    We discussed this same issue over a year ago. If you don't want to be taken advantage of you either go wide or find a way to protest this. But if you just keep acting shocked about what we've known for a long time that doesn't seem productive.

    We did. However, there is currently a very long thread about the new bonus rules in which a highly ranked and profitable author keeps insisting that the page flip issue had been fixed.

    In my mind that makes this discussion worth it, if only to ensure that people know if is still most certainly an issue.

    Offline GeneDoucette

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #38 on: June 24, 2018, 05:04:47 am »
    ...this isn't new information. I wrote a long post about this back in September, and so far as I can tell it's still accurate. http://genedoucette.me/2017/09/kindle-unlimited-is-not-here-to-make-friends/

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #39 on: June 24, 2018, 05:58:10 am »
    Amazon has been clear for over a year that "Readers using page flip will not register page reads for KU."

    They also insist "A very small percentage of readers use page flip to read books."

    Last year, we had dozens of authors reporting to KU on their readers that admitted they prefer reading in page flip mode. I read all books in page flip mode myself as I can make the text plenty big enough and it's easier to flip pages :P

    Amazon has decided to make it the company line that almost no one uses page flip no matter how much evidence is presented to the contrary. This is an attempt to define "pages read" in a more narrow way from what we can tell.

    I would urge you to find out which of your readers use page flip and have them message Amazon on your behalf. Other than that, you could make youtube videos about how it doesn't seem fair to allow people to read "pages" of your book without paying for the "page reads".

    I ducked out of that mess and have been happy with my gradual rise with wide sales. Making a lot more than I was from page reads but then again I have three books now.

    Offline Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #40 on: June 24, 2018, 08:38:49 am »
    It's more likely the author is successful enough that a new release rejuvenated sales to the extent that it no longer looked like page reads were being lost via page flip. When I updated the website/social media links in one of my books back in January before it came out of KU, I had someone check to make sure the updates had gone through. They checked out the copyright page and then swiped forward to the end to the updated thank you page and author bio, and only 3 page reads registered. Now in this instance, those 3 pages are the only ones I should have gotten paid for, but if he'd kept reading everything in between, I still would have only gotten credit for 3 pages.

    It could be a simple demographic issue that makes some people think it's been fixed or isn't a problem. No doubt page flip is more popular in one age group than another, and so the genres that appeal more to that age group will lose more page reads as a result. So we have some people swearing it isn't a problem, and other people swearing that it's killed their reads. Just lots of swearing, generally.  ;)

    This is true, but it could also depend on the device the reader is using. A larger tablet might be more comfortable to read in page flip mode.

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #41 on: June 24, 2018, 09:54:15 am »
    Any system that requires you to tell your readers that they must read in a certain way is a system authors should not be supporting. Period. Full stop. If you have to tell people, "Please don't use this tool Amazon gave you, because then Amazon won't pay me" that is a serious, fundamental problem.

    This is wage theft. This is like if my employer said "Hey, we can see that you showed up for work today, but your manager clocked you in using Explorer browser instead of Chrome browser, and we only count hours logged in by Chrome browser, even though we can see what is clocked in through the Explorer browser just fine but since most managers don't use it we don't count it, so you aren't getting paid."

    Offline portiadacosta

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #42 on: June 24, 2018, 09:58:11 am »
    This is true, but it could also depend on the device the reader is using. A larger tablet might be more comfortable to read in page flip mode.

    I sometimes read on an iPad Pro, the larger one, and the text on that in page flip is plenty big enough to read.
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    Offline KelliWolfe

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #43 on: June 24, 2018, 10:03:17 am »
    Any system that requires you to tell your readers that they must read in a certain way is a system authors should not be supporting. Period. Full stop. If you have to tell people, "Please don't use this tool Amazon gave you, because then Amazon won't pay me" that is a serious, fundamental problem.

    This is wage theft. This is like if my employer said "Hey, we can see that you showed up for work today, but your manager clocked you in using Explorer browser instead of Chrome browser, and we only count hours logged in by Chrome browser, even though we can see what is clocked in through the Explorer browser just fine but since most managers don't use it we don't count it, so you aren't getting paid."
    Dammit, Julie, don't give Amazon any more ideas!!!

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    Offline Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #44 on: June 24, 2018, 10:55:31 am »
    I have replied to the KDP email in the OP and voiced our disgruntlement. I await their reply. Perhaps we need to escalate it to JB.

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    Offline Going Incognito

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #45 on: June 24, 2018, 11:05:35 am »
    We did. However, there is currently a very long thread about the new bonus rules in which a highly ranked and profitable author keeps insisting that the page flip issue had been fixed.

    In my mind that makes this discussion worth it, if only to ensure that people know if is still most certainly an issue.

    I haven't read most of that thread but I'm thinking that maybe they're confused? Supposedly flipping/jumping/slider-ing to the end of the book in regular mode on most devices (except the online reader) has been fixed for a while now, so that you now shouldn't be getting paid by not-reading, but if they're saying that pages read in page flip mode are now counting- that is incorrect and I'd love to know why they think it is 'fixed.'


    Any system that requires you to tell your readers that they must read in a certain way is a system authors should not be supporting. Period. Full stop. If you have to tell people, "Please don't use this tool Amazon gave you, because then Amazon won't pay me" that is a serious, fundamental problem.

    This is wage theft. This is like if my employer said "Hey, we can see that you showed up for work today, but your manager clocked you in using Explorer browser instead of Chrome browser, and we only count hours logged in by Chrome browser, even though we can see what is clocked in through the Explorer browser just fine but since most managers don't use it we don't count it, so you aren't getting paid."

    Yep, that's what finally drove me wide. If you say you're paying by pages read then design software that does not pay for entire books being read, that you force push to every possible device and advertise on tv and in 50 Shades, not allowing KU authors to have an option to disable the software that rips them off, on top of all their other crappy issues... that was this camel's final straw.
    « Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 11:10:52 am by Going Incognito »

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #46 on: June 24, 2018, 11:15:50 am »
    Any system that requires you to tell your readers that they must read in a certain way is a system authors should not be supporting. Period. Full stop. If you have to tell people, "Please don't use this tool Amazon gave you, because then Amazon won't pay me" that is a serious, fundamental problem.

    This is wage theft. This is like if my employer said "Hey, we can see that you showed up for work today, but your manager clocked you in using Explorer browser instead of Chrome browser, and we only count hours logged in by Chrome browser, even though we can see what is clocked in through the Explorer browser just fine but since most managers don't use it we don't count it, so you aren't getting paid."

    Julie,

    In your opinion, what would it take for Amazon to take notice that they are in the wrong and cheating their authors?

    Do these authors have any recourse aside from what I did(leave KU)?

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #47 on: June 24, 2018, 12:05:14 pm »
    *****,

    In your opinion, what would it take for Amazon to take notice that they are in the wrong and cheating their authors?

    This question assumes that being fair to authors is actually part of the equation. Amazon knows exactly what it is doing and will continue to do so as long as they can get away with it.

    Quote
    Do these authors have any recourse aside from what I did(leave KU)?

    The only thing Amazon understands is very public embarrassment. I suppose if you could get Trump to Tweet "Amazon stealing from authors. Very unfair!" that would get their attention. I'm not even being facetious at this point. The OP has written evidence that Amazon does not count page flips, and written evidence that readers do read through page flip. If that got magnified enough that the media picked up the story? I suspect that would force Amazon's hand. But Amazon has never corrected a problem merely because the problem needed to be corrected.  It is only when a critical mass of negative publicity starts to boil over that they do anything.

    Offline Mercedes Vox

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #48 on: June 24, 2018, 02:10:21 pm »
    Yep, that's what finally drove me wide. If you say you're paying by pages read then design software that does not pay for entire books being read, that you force push to every possible device and advertise on tv and in 50 Shades, not allowing KU authors to have an option to disable the software that rips them off, on top of all their other crappy issues... that was this camel's final straw.

    That was my final straw too. After the advert pimping page-flip at the front of the second as-told-by-the-dude Fifty Shades redux book, I started taking hard hits on all my M/F e-rom titles across several pen names. Sales stayed within norms, but the KU reads suddenly started circling the drain. That didn't seem coincidental. So, for one of my pen names that has a long-running series, I casually polled my readers about their use of page-flip. Roughly twenty percent didn't know what it was, forty percent said they mostly used their phones to read so they didn't use it, with the remaining forty percent saying they used page-flip with some regularly.

    I won't presume to ask my readers to consume my work in a certain way (e.g., by asking that they not use page-flip), but I'll be damned if I'll offer my work in a place where I'm not getting compensated for its consumption.
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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #49 on: June 24, 2018, 03:18:04 pm »
    I still don't understand why people think it's better in 'page flip' -- even on a larger screened tablet.
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