Author Topic: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP  (Read 9576 times)  

Offline 39416

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Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2018, 03:41:52 pm »


Do these authors have any recourse aside from what I did(leave KU)?

You can report unfair business practices to the FTC (they have an online form, https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/media/video-0054-how-file-complaint), and, to your own state's Attorney General's office (most also have an online complaint form).

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    Offline SuzyQ

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #51 on: June 24, 2018, 04:30:45 pm »
    This started in the fall of 2016. Readers DO read in page flop mode. That is why some people put a notice in the front of their books.

    Offline Hope

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #52 on: June 24, 2018, 05:03:26 pm »
    I have an ipad mini and I sometimes like reading in pageflip mode. It's easier to turn the 'page' and it's much easier if I'm searching for something. However, I know the author won't get paid, so I make sure I put it back into the regular reading mode and wait before closing the book. I will also go back into it and make sure it is on the page I was just on so the author gets paid. Unfortunately, regular readers don't know this, so if they are reading in pageflip, they won't be careful to put the book back into reading mode and the author won't get paid. This has never been fixed regardless of what some authors have said. I still get 1 page reads every day and Amazon doesn't care. Nothing new there.

    Also, I was reading my new release in regular mode and stopped at 25% to see how long it took the pages to show up. They showed up, then I did another 25% and those showed up. Two days later, I went back into the book to look at the rest of the pages. I got to the end of the book and just as I was closing it, the entire app closed. I thought that was weird, so I went back into it and the book had reverted to 50%. I waited several days to see if the pages showed up, and of course, they didn't. So several days later, I did it again and got to 100% and again the app closed by itself. Those pages never showed up, either. A few days later, I did it again and this time the app didn't close itself, and I got credit for the pages read. Makes you wonder how many times that happens.

    Offline AltMe

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #53 on: June 24, 2018, 06:43:08 pm »
    This started in the fall of 2016. Readers DO read in page flop mode. That is why some people put a notice in the front of their books.

    Where do they put it? I considered it, but assumed Amazon would demand it taken out.

    I did a survey a year ago. 6% read in flip mode. 6% more dont leave flip mode if it engages accidentally. (About 250 respondents)

    KDP have always maintained no-one reads using flip mode. Until someone gets a survey done in the tens of thousands, which reveals a real number of flip readers, they will continue to ignore the claims.

    There was another bug behind flip, and they fixed that. I assume now I'm losing around 10% of my reads to flip, but I can live with that, hence not being a leader in this thread.

    If you really want some action from Amazon - get a survey going, and get 10,000 people to state they read in page flip mode all the time, and another 10,000 saying they read part of the time. You'll need over a million people filling out the survey to get them. Amazon ignored my tiny survey. Do it big, or forget about getting Amazon to notice your complaints. Or get Trump to tweet it.
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    Offline Doglover

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #54 on: June 25, 2018, 01:12:32 am »
    Page flip on an iPad is good for skimming books. You can see two pages at once and the whole page you're skimming, which makes it easier to scan. With Page Flip i can easily skim a 250 - 300 page book in about 2 hours. You might wonder why I'd bother to read so fast, but truth is many books aren't that well written, so I'm skimming because it's not worth focussing on every word. If the book is good then I'll slow down because it's worth the time, but I still stay in Page Flip mode.
    If the book is so bad you need to skim over to find some good bits, the author doesn't deserve to get paid. I skim over books with loads of description, but I still do it in the usual one page at a time way because my eyesight isn't that good. And once i've got it in pageflip, I very often can't get out of it.


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    Offline PearlEarringLady

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #55 on: June 25, 2018, 03:14:27 am »
    All that said, I am finding it increasingly impossible to source any books through Amazon. The search engine is deeply corrupted by miscategorization, the AMS ads are equally as irrelevant, and many of the reviews are utter BS. These days I'm finding BookBub a much better source. I get a customized daily email, I'm not a KU subscriber anyway, the books are discounted/free, and I can buy them through platforms other than Amazon, plus the Bookbub reviews have proven more reliable. Works for me far better than using Amazon's increasingly meaningless ads, searches and over or under egged reviews. This latest change is the nail in the coffin. Also-boughts were the last reliable search tool they offered and, for me at least, it's gone.

    I agree with much of this. I used to bounce from book to book via also boughts, because they were generally relevant to the genre I was looking at. I read and write traditional Regencies, and you have no idea how difficult it is to find anything decent to read in that sub-genre. Also-boughts were a great way to find all sorts of obscure but wonderful authors.

    Bookbub emails are not such a great success for me. I read the reviews pretty carefully, and it's horrifying how many Bookbub offerings have swathes of reviews complaining about poor editing and (in my genre) historical inaccuracies. Plus the same authors pop up time after time, and the same books, even. I'm looking for something new to me, I don't want more books by an author I've already tried.

    Bah humbug! /curmudgeon mode

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #56 on: June 25, 2018, 05:19:59 am »
    You can report unfair business practices to the FTC (they have an online form, https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/media/video-0054-how-file-complaint), and, to your own state's Attorney General's office (most also have an online complaint form).

    In general, the FTC does not get involved in business-to-business transactions (which is what this would be). So I wouldn't count on any traction there. Impacted authors may get more traction by simply identifying a HuffPo blogger or some other high profile blogger that would be willing to publicly discuss this issue.


    Online Decon

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #57 on: June 25, 2018, 05:41:45 am »
    Let's say they fixed it. All that would happen if they fixed it is that they would have exactly the same fund,  with more page reads, and so the amount paid out per page would be less. So really, with the same fund, it would cost amazon nothing other than the programming to fix this. If it is possible, that is. Of course, if it were fixed, for the authors it would be more accurate, but some would gain and others lose out.

    For the readers, it would make no difference. They will carry on reading in whatever mode they prefer, some paying exactly the same per month for reading 30 books as those who only read 5. Is that fair? Who knows?

    Let's say 30% of readers use page flip. In that scenario we would be paid exactly the same for 3 books as we are now paid for 2 books with the same fund.  We would then have a thread on here of authors shouting out that 0.0030c cents per page was profiting on Amazon's part and it is time for all to leave KU. It is what it is and you either take part or you don't, warts and all.

    I earned nothing to speak of prior to KU, now I earn something. Page reads also go some way to paying for AMS ads, if not all, to making a profit on individual books, If you use AMS, which as noted on other threads, these ads now have prominence on the sales page. These ads definitely increase page reads. Without that effect, I couldn't pay for the ads and have the visibility to garner sales that I otherwise wouldn't have.
    « Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 06:34:35 am by Decon »


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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #58 on: June 25, 2018, 06:21:26 am »
    This started in the fall of 2016. Readers DO read in page flop mode. That is why some people put a notice in the front of their books.

    Personally, I want my readers to do whatever gives them the best experience. If that means reading my books in Page Flip, I'm all for it.

    I'm less concerned with getting paid for reads than making sure my fans enjoy the reads. These people end up joining my mailing list, buying my other books (many use KU as a way to "test" my books), leaving positive reviews, and telling their friends about me.

    I see the Page Flip non-payment as a form of indirect advertising. I'm getting my books into the hands of more and more people. That leads to greater sales volume over the long run.

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    Offline Lark Watson

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #59 on: June 25, 2018, 09:54:58 am »
    So their answer is "we're not stealing from enough people to worry about it" -- ???   >:(

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    Offline Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #60 on: June 25, 2018, 10:54:03 am »
    Update on OP.

    I compiled a reply to their email outlining my regret about non-payment of page flip reads and explained that author research has found that many readers use page flip to read their ebooks.
    I received this reply
    Hello,
    Our Customer Service department didn't receive the e-mail message below. If you still need help, please visit one of the pages below so we can quickly provide you with additional information or give assistance via e-mail or phone.


    I re-sent my reply and received the same reply from KDP.

    I forwarded my reply to KDP support. Deafening silence - although they were quite prompt in replying to my first query.
    I have sent it once again to KDP support.
    I will keep trying  ::).

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    Offline Hope

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #61 on: June 25, 2018, 02:26:06 pm »
    Update on OP.

    I compiled a reply to their email outlining my regret about non-payment of page flip reads and explained that author research has found that many readers use page flip to read their ebooks.
    I received this reply
    Hello,
    Our Customer Service department didn't receive the e-mail message below. If you still need help, please visit one of the pages below so we can quickly provide you with additional information or give assistance via e-mail or phone.


    I re-sent my reply and received the same reply from KDP.

    I forwarded my reply to KDP support. Deafening silence - although they were quite prompt in replying to my first query.
    I have sent it once again to KDP support.
    I will keep trying  ::).

    The equivalent of Amazon sticking their fingers in their ears and singing, lalalalalalalala, I can't hear you! as loudly as possible.  >:(  Unfortunately, not at all surprising.

    Offline Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #62 on: June 27, 2018, 11:44:19 am »
    A further reply to my query.

    My query:
    Dear KDP
    Thank you for your detailed reply.
    Author research on Facebook groups and writers' boards has proved that numerous readers use page flip to read ebooks, especially if they are using one of the larger tablets.
    How did Amazon do their research to say that "We do not see any material amount of reading happening within this feature" if they can't see the pages being read in flip mode? If they can see the number of pages read in flip mode then why aren't they paying authors for them?
    Many authors are feeling cheated out of their due income and are pulling out of KU. This is going to affect the readers, who will have fewer books to choose from and will look elsewhere for their reading matter. Could you please re-look at this feature, both from a reader's and a writer's perspective.

    Hello Janet,

    Thank you for your reply. Weve looked at the data and cant find a systematic issue affecting your results. We apologize, but we just dont have any more information to offer.

    We'd appreciate your feedback. Please use the buttons below to vote about your experience today.

    Best regards,
    Miranda Shelby
    Amazon.com



    So, there you have it.  ::)

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    Offline Going Incognito

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #63 on: June 27, 2018, 02:33:28 pm »

    We'd appreciate your feedback. Please use the buttons below to vote about your experience today.

    Best regards,
    Miranda Shelby
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    So, there you have it.  ::)

    So did you? Use the buttons? Can I vote with you? Lol.
    Hey, tomorrow is the 2 year anniversary of Page Flip, maybe they'll celebrate by updating the software to automatically take 50% of page reads back anytime someone... oh wait a minute... maybe that's why...?

    (Sorry to tease, it's just that sarcasm is my first defense and we're staring at July as it looms closer and closer...)

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #64 on: June 27, 2018, 05:29:40 pm »
    Thank you for your reply. Weve looked at the data and cant find a systematic issue affecting your results. We apologize, but we just dont have any more information to offer.
    Miranda Shelby

    This is why only a survey with more than 10k people on it, showing thousands use flip, is going to make any impression on them.

    Interesting you got a surname. Maybe it was a real person.
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    Offline Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #65 on: June 28, 2018, 01:06:07 am »
    So did you? Use the buttons? Can I vote with you? Lol.
    Hey, tomorrow is the 2 year anniversary of Page Flip, maybe they'll celebrate by updating the software to automatically take 50% of page reads back anytime someone... oh wait a minute... maybe that's why...?

    (Sorry to tease, it's just that sarcasm is my first defense and we're staring at July as it looms closer and closer...)

    Haven't replied yet. I'm girding my loins. Not that it will do much good  ::).

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    Offline LeonardDHilleyII

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #66 on: June 28, 2018, 01:18:17 am »
    The closest I've ever seen them admit to it before was their statement that Page Flip didn't "materially affect" authors. Personally I have never before seen anything where they clearly stated pages read in Page Flip are not counted. No matter. The point is that KDP has a contractual obligation to pay us for page reads read in KU and they are now clearly saying that they don't.
    ^^ Agreed.

    Offline 39416

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #67 on: June 28, 2018, 02:23:33 am »
    Haven't replied yet. I'm girding my loins. Not that it will do much good  ::).

    So that's their story an' they're sticking to it.

    From a legal perspective it doesn't matter if the problem is "systemic." The KDP contract says they will pay for page reads. They admit they don't if the pages read are read in Page Flip. How "systemic" the problem is, is irrelevant. If Jan didn't get paid pursuant to the terms of Amazon's KDP contract, that is Amazon breaching its contract with her. And because it was intentional and knowing, it dips its ugly little head into fraud.

    Jan, you should consider just telling them that you contracted for payment with them based on your pages read, and so you demand to be paid based upon your pages read. Consider telling them exactly how many page reads you believe you were shafted and how much money you are demanding that they reimburse you for those page reads. In legal terms it's called a demand letter. Period.

    Offline Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #68 on: June 28, 2018, 02:39:44 am »
    This is why only a survey with more than 10k people on it, showing thousands use flip, is going to make any impression on them.

    Interesting you got a surname. Maybe it was a real person.


    Agreed. I think it will take a concerted effort from a number of influential authors before they do anything. I wonder if the trad publishers have noticed any page flip problems. It would be interesting if they did some testing themselves.

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #69 on: June 28, 2018, 03:55:18 am »
    So that's their story an' they're sticking to it.

    From a legal perspective it doesn't matter if the problem is "systemic." The KDP contract says they will pay for page reads. They admit they don't if the pages read are read in Page Flip. How "systemic" the problem is, is irrelevant. If Jan didn't get paid pursuant to the terms of Amazon's KDP contract, that is Amazon breaching its contract with her. And because it was intentional and knowing, it dips its ugly little head into fraud.

    Jan, you should consider just telling them that you contracted for payment with them based on your pages read, and so you demand to be paid based upon your pages read. Consider telling them exactly how many page reads you believe you were shafted and how much money you are demanding that they reimburse you for those page reads. In legal terms it's called a demand letter. Period.

    We did all this a year ago. And I agree it's fraud. Except for one minor detail. The agreement to use KU gives Amazon the ability to define a page read any way they want to. And the moment flip came in, they defined a read as not being in flip mode.

    The flip side, is no counting in flip mode is to stop scammers from speed reading a book to get paid for full reads. If they are doing it, they have to at least make the effort to speed flip in normal mode. And dont forget, the scammers have people speed reading books using rows and rows of phones. Speeding it up just made it quicker for them, and Amazon closed that hole.

    Agreed. I think it will take a concerted effort from a number of influential authors before they do anything. I wonder if the trad publishers have noticed any page flip problems. It would be interesting if they did some testing themselves.

    I've not seen any evidence the trads have even noticed the issue.



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    Offline GeneDoucette

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #70 on: June 28, 2018, 04:02:47 am »
    We did all this a year ago. And I agree it's fraud. Except for one minor detail. The agreement to use KU gives Amazon the ability to define a page read any way they want to. And the moment flip came in, they defined a read as not being in flip mode.

    The flip side, is no counting in flip mode is to stop scammers from speed reading a book to get paid for full reads. If they are doing it, they have to at least make the effort to speed flip in normal mode. And dont forget, the scammers have people speed reading books using rows and rows of phones. Speeding it up just made it quicker for them, and Amazon closed that hole.

    I've not seen any evidence the trads have even noticed the issue.

    Trad pubs in KU aren't paid by the page.

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #71 on: June 28, 2018, 04:06:29 am »
    Trad pubs in KU aren't paid by the page.

    Oh yeah. I forgot that small snippet.
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    Offline Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #72 on: June 28, 2018, 05:57:42 am »
    Trad pubs in KU aren't paid by the page.

    That sounds fair - not

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    Offline Sapphire

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #73 on: June 28, 2018, 06:01:31 am »
    Why would any one read a book in page flip mode? I tried and find it very annoying (as it's clearly not designed to for reading)...
    I sat beside a lady on an airplane who was reading in page flip. I asked her how often she reads in that mode and she told me, "Always."
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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #74 on: June 28, 2018, 06:11:29 am »
    I sat beside a lady on an airplane who was reading in page flip. I asked her how often she reads in that mode and she told me, "Always."

    The question is: How does one reach all those people with a survey?
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