Author Topic: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP  (Read 9586 times)  

Offline Used To Be BH

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Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2018, 06:24:13 am »
That sounds fair - not
As much of a mess as KU is, I understand that part. There aren't many trads in KU anyway, but Amazon wants to make it as attractive as possible to them. However, the real reason is that the trads don't (generally) try to scam the system. KU1, prior to the pages read system, ran into trouble because of the flood of scamphlets, in which the trads did not participate.

Of course, most of us wouldn't scam the system either. Just another example of the scammers ruining it for everybody else.
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    Offline Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #76 on: June 28, 2018, 06:57:09 am »

    Of course, most of us wouldn't scam the system either. Just another example of the scammers ruining it for everybody else.

    Isn't that the case in most things  ::). We used to enjoy a meal at a help-yourself buffet restaurant. Then people began sneaking food into their bags etc and the restaurant lost so much that they had to shut down the buffet area  >:(

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    Offline mike h

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #77 on: June 28, 2018, 07:13:11 am »
    Trad pubs in KU aren't paid by the page.
    What constitutes a trad pub? There are self pubs that go out of their way to appear as a trad pub. Is this a way around the self pub vs trad pub treatment difference? If self pubs ganged together into coops that are essentially trad pubs does this solve the difference? Is there a size that a trad pub must be to be defined as a trad pub?

    Offline Joseph M. Erhardt

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #78 on: June 29, 2018, 05:00:38 am »
    ...
    The flip side, is no counting in flip mode is to stop scammers from speed reading a book to get paid for full reads.
    ...
    As I posted earlier, it wouldn't take much code to determine how long a person is sitting on a page in Page-Flip mode before they move on, so bypassing this type of scam would be simple.

    Joseph M. Erhardt

    Offline GeneDoucette

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #79 on: June 29, 2018, 05:17:34 am »
    What constitutes a trad pub? There are self pubs that go out of their way to appear as a trad pub. Is this a way around the self pub vs trad pub treatment difference? If self pubs ganged together into coops that are essentially trad pubs does this solve the difference? Is there a size that a trad pub must be to be defined as a trad pub?

    No, probably not. I'm not talking about anything that accesses KU via the KDP dashboard. I'm not saying there are a ton of trad pub books in KU, but for example, The Handmaid's Tale is in there. They have a different arrangement.

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #80 on: June 29, 2018, 05:29:00 am »
    No, probably not. I'm not talking about anything that accesses KU via the KDP dashboard. I'm not saying there are a ton of trad pub books in KU, but for example, The Handmaid's Tale is in there. They have a different arrangement.
    Yes and all of J.K. Rowlings' books.


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    Offline Used To Be BH

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #81 on: June 29, 2018, 07:41:44 am »
    What constitutes a trad pub? There are self pubs that go out of their way to appear as a trad pub. Is this a way around the self pub vs trad pub treatment difference? If self pubs ganged together into coops that are essentially trad pubs does this solve the difference? Is there a size that a trad pub must be to be defined as a trad pub?
    Perhaps someone who actually runs a small publishing operation will chime in here. My impression is that Amazon special arrangements are for big trad pubs.

    On another forum I did ask some questions of a person who runs a small publisher, and one thing I verified was that the Amazon publisher benefits such as extra categories don't accrue if the publisher uses a pass-through payment model. In other words, if writers get 100% of what their Amazon royalty would be, Amazon doesn't count that organization as a publisher, even if it performs some of the same functions. Don't coops generally operate that way? How many people would want to hand off some of their profits to a middleman in exchange for a system like KU1?
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    Offline GeneDoucette

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #82 on: June 29, 2018, 07:45:25 am »
    Perhaps someone who actually runs a small publishing operation will chime in here. My impression is that Amazon special arrangements are for big trad pubs.

    On another forum I did ask some questions of a person who runs a small publisher, and one thing I verified was that the Amazon publisher benefits such as extra categories don't accrue if the publisher uses a pass-through payment model. In other words, if writers get 100% of what their Amazon royalty would be, Amazon doesn't count that organization as a publisher, even if it performs some of the same functions. Don't coops generally operate that way? How many people would want to hand off some of their profits to a middleman in exchange for a system like KU1?

    Those big pubs can also be non-exclusive, which I'm pretty sure Amazon won't accept.

    Offline It's A Mystery

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #83 on: June 29, 2018, 11:55:40 am »
    Assuming an even spread of ku users use page flip to read... Wouldn't it mean that in general it makes no difference to payouts?

    If 20% of my page reads are missed, then pretty much 20% of everyone else's are being missed and the overall pot goes up and everyone ends up with roughly the same.

    Or am I missing something?

    Offline Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #84 on: June 29, 2018, 12:22:44 pm »
    Assuming an even spread of ku users use page flip to read... Wouldn't it mean that in general it makes no difference to payouts?

    If 20% of my page reads are missed, then pretty much 20% of everyone else's are being missed and the overall pot goes up and everyone ends up with roughly the same.

    Or am I missing something?

    When 25 pages of my book were read in page flip I received nothing, irrespective of the size of the pot.  Nuthin is still nuthin. >:(

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    Offline It's A Mystery

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #85 on: June 29, 2018, 12:43:26 pm »
    When 25 pages of my book were read in page flip I received nothing, irrespective of the size of the pot.  Nuthin is still nuthin. >:(

    I guess if you have low page reads you may get caught as an unlucky one who's readers only use it. In which case I'm sorry!

    Generally I'd imagine it evens out more than we think though.

    Offline KelliWolfe

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #86 on: June 29, 2018, 01:05:05 pm »
    Assuming an even spread of ku users use page flip to read... Wouldn't it mean that in general it makes no difference to payouts?

    If 20% of my page reads are missed, then pretty much 20% of everyone else's are being missed and the overall pot goes up and everyone ends up with roughly the same.

    Or am I missing something?
    Only if you assume that the payouts are actually determined by page reads. If, as many of us suspect, Amazon pulls the per-page rate straight out of their *ss every month to keep the rate more or less stable (within about a 5% month-to-month difference), then you're potentially losing 20% of the money you could be earning every month.

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    Offline It's A Mystery

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #87 on: June 29, 2018, 01:08:50 pm »
    Only if you assume that the payouts are actually determined by page reads. If, as many of us suspect, Amazon pulls the per-page rate straight out of their *ss every month to keep the rate more or less stable (within about a 5% month-to-month difference), then you're potentially losing 20% of the money you could be earning every month.

    I guess so, I just have no data to suggest they do or don't.

    Offline Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #88 on: June 30, 2018, 01:04:42 am »
    I guess if you have low page reads you may get caught as an unlucky one who's readers only use it. In which case I'm sorry!

    Generally I'd imagine it evens out more than we think though.

    I'm not sure what you mean by 'it evens out'. If a KU reader reads an entire book using page flip the writer doesn't get paid anything at all for that book. How can that 'even out'?

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    Offline SomeoneElse

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #89 on: June 30, 2018, 02:42:04 am »

    I'm not sure what you mean by 'it evens out'. If a KU reader reads an entire book using page flip the writer doesn't get paid anything at all for that book. How can that 'even out'?

    I think the 'evens out' argument assumes we all get approximately the same percent of readers reading in page flip mode, so we all lose the same amount. But then, because of the way the payout is calculated, we all get paid what we would anyway, with a higher amount per page. Obviously there are assumptions in there that may not hold - e.g. certain demographics of readers may be more likely to read in page flip mode.
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    Offline 39416

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #90 on: June 30, 2018, 04:59:06 am »
    Assuming an even spread of ku users use page flip to read... Wouldn't it mean that in general it makes no difference to payouts?

    If 20% of my page reads are missed, then pretty much 20% of everyone else's are being missed and the overall pot goes up and everyone ends up with roughly the same.

    Or am I missing something?

    If Amazon paid us all for our page reads read in Page Flip, in order to keep the page rate high enough to keep attracting authors into KU, Amazon would be forced to put more of its money into the pot. Right now Amazon doesn't have to do that because with Page Flip, Amazon can give out KU authors' books to its KU readers for free. KU authors are effectively subsidizing the KU program so Amazon doesn't have to fund it wholly.

    Note that when Jan pointed out to Amazon a specific number of page reads she had been cheated, Amazon did not offer to reimburse her.
    « Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 05:07:03 am by loraininflorida »

    Offline Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #91 on: June 30, 2018, 06:35:34 am »
    I think the 'evens out' argument assumes we all get approximately the same percent of readers reading in page flip mode, so we all lose the same amount. But then, because of the way the payout is calculated, we all get paid what we would anyway, with a higher amount per page. Obviously there are assumptions in there that may not hold - e.g. certain demographics of readers may be more likely to read in page flip mode.

    Do you mean that if 20% of the readers read in page flip mode then ALL the authors will be equally cheated out of 20% of their page flip earnings? Amazon will then be 20% page reads richer by not having to pay us out. This evens out rather well in Amazon's favour  ::)

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    Offline GeneDoucette

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #92 on: June 30, 2018, 07:23:21 am »
    Do you mean that if 20% of the readers read in page flip mode then ALL the authors will be equally cheated out of 20% of their page flip earnings? Amazon will then be 20% page reads richer by not having to pay us out. This evens out rather well in Amazon's favour  ::)

    If the pool is static, and there are 20% fewer page reads, the 20% doesn't go to Amazon, it gets distributed. I understand the "Amazon makes the pages-read rate per month come out to what they want anyway, so this isn't true" argument, but just thinking "if i'm not getting the $ from pages read in page flip, Amazon is getting it" makes no sense.

    Offline Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #93 on: June 30, 2018, 07:28:54 am »
    If the pool is static, and there are 20% fewer page reads, the 20% doesn't go to Amazon, it gets distributed. I understand the "Amazon makes the pages-read rate per month come out to what they want anyway, so this isn't true" argument, but just thinking "if i'm not getting the $ from pages read in page flip, Amazon is getting it" makes no sense.

    I'm not sure I understand. If Amazon are not paying out for those pages doesn't that mean they are keeping the money that should have been paid out?

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    Offline KelliWolfe

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #94 on: June 30, 2018, 07:40:09 am »
    Plus they cancel 50%++ page reads without justification, adjust KENPC without mentioning why or that they even did it, have 100% control over the data and pot so you never have enough information to know what's going on, AND whenever challenged they scream, "but the scammers made us".

    KU is a sad state of affairs where Amazon hold all the data and control, plus they have an easy to target to blame for anything they do and why they can't tell you why they did it.
    It's always about narrowing our margins in their favor. Tweak KENPC a couple of times, drop overall page reads by 20%. Add Page Flip and refuse to count those pages read and get another 20$. Reduce visibility and push people into AMS ads to claw back even more...

    And don't forget that "delivery charge" on sales that literally no one else has.

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    Offline PearlEarringLady

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #95 on: June 30, 2018, 07:41:58 am »
    I'm not sure I understand. If Amazon are not paying out for those pages doesn't that mean they are keeping the money that should have been paid out?

    KU operates on a fixed pool of money, which gets divvied out between all the pages read that month. Lots of pages read means a smaller per-page payout, fewer pages means a bigger per-page payout, but an author's individual share of the pool is still the same (in theory). So it doesn't matter whether you get lots of pages/smaller page value, or few pages/higher page vale, you should get the same amount of money (in theory). So long as pages read counted or not counted are distributed evenly over all authors, nobody loses (in theory).

    This is why there is such outrage about KU scammers because they are taking a bigger slice of the KU pie, leaving less to be distributed amongst legit authors.

    Offline KelliWolfe

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #96 on: June 30, 2018, 08:04:47 am »
    Except that there's no indication that it really works that way. The number of page reads can go up month-over-month but the per-page rate increase rather than decrease, and vice versa. And the page rate stays fairly stable within a margin of about +/-5% each month. Amazon makes the rate what it wants it to be based on whatever internal criteria they decide to use. For all we know they have a random number generator that goes from -5 to +5 which they run right before they announce the monthly rate. Knowing Amazon, they only reason they haven't simply gone to a flat per-page rate is to keep us off-balance and guessing about what they're going to do next, and if they decide to drop the rate significantly they've already laid the groundwork for us to expect something of the sort. Anxious vendors are more easily manipulated than secure ones.

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    Offline PhoenixS

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #97 on: June 30, 2018, 08:16:02 am »
    I'm not sure I understand. If Amazon are not paying out for those pages doesn't that mean they are keeping the money that should have been paid out?

    Let's look at the math. The assumption here is that everyone is losing page flip (PF) reads at the exact same amount.

    So, let's say the pot for the month is $25 million. Without counting PF, there are 5 billion page reads total. Counting PF reads, there are 6 billion total.

    5B page reads - no PF
    $25M pot
    .005 payout

    6B page reads - with PF
    $25M pot
    .00417 payout

    Now, let's say for every 100 non-PF pages read, there are 20 PF page reads.

    100 page reads @ .005 w/o PF = 50 cents
    120 page reads @ .00417 w/ PF = 50 cents

    Now, if the actual number of pages read is more because PF reads aren't being counted, then Amazon should ethically adjust the pot up by, in this example, 17%. But there's no agreement in place that dictates how they must calculate the pot, just how they must distribute it. So, no, Amazon is not pocketing the extra money because they're distributing the pot each month. But yes, they are in ethical violation, imo, of not re-calculating the pot to account for PF reads.

    And, of course, for authors who receive more than 50% of their reads in PF, then under the current system, those authors are not receiving their fair share, while other authors are receiving more.

    But we still don't know what the percent is of folk who read in PF.
     
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    Offline Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #98 on: June 30, 2018, 08:24:49 am »
    Let's look at the math. The assumption here is that everyone is losing page flip (PF) reads at the exact same amount.

    So, let's say the pot for the month is $25 million. Without counting PF, there are 5 billion page reads total. Counting PF reads, there are 6 billion total.

    5B page reads - no PF
    $25M pot
    .005 payout

    6B page reads - with PF
    $25M pot
    .00417 payout

    Now, let's say for every 100 non-PF pages read, there are 20 PF page reads.

    100 page reads @ .005 w/o PF = 50 cents
    120 page reads @ .00417 w/ PF = 50 cents

    Now, if the actual number of pages read is more because PF reads aren't being counted, then Amazon should ethically adjust the pot up by, in this example, 17%. But there's no agreement in place that dictates how they must calculate the pot, just how they must distribute it. So, no, Amazon is not pocketing the extra money because they're distributing the pot each month. But yes, they are in ethical violation, imo, of not re-calculating the pot to account for PF reads.

    And, of course, for authors who receive more than 50% of their reads in PF, then under the current system, those authors are not receiving their fair share, while other authors are receiving more.

    But we still don't know what the percent is of folk who read in PF.
     

    Thanks. All I know is that I used to get about 5000 page reads per month and this month I got a mere 121  :(. Could be many reasons, but we'll never know (except for the 25 page flip pages that I know they DO owe me  >:( )

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    Offline Nope

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    Re: Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP
    « Reply #99 on: June 30, 2018, 11:05:06 am »
    .
    « Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 08:12:38 pm by Nope »

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