Author Topic: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately? (MERGED)  (Read 91537 times)  

Offline 98700

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Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
« Reply #525 on: September 19, 2018, 05:25:42 pm »
Just in case the full wipe on your account goes through, I'm copying and pasting your quote.  It states everything I want to say about this subject (and thank you, thedudeminds)

I have sent a PM to "Philip" requesting a full wipe of my account. In case I haven't made this clear, I will re-state: I do not consent to KBoards/Vertical Scope revised (with no notification of same) TOS, and rejected same as soon as I was made aware of the TOS's language.

I have allowed for time for a response regarding the language in the TOS - that time allowance should not be construed as consent but rather a good faith attempt at allowing KB/VS to respond to membership concerns. I am not satisfied with the response or lack thereof in what I feel was a reasonable time frame.

Given that, I would like to be removed from this site and any/all content I've posted here to be removed as well. As soon as possible.

Additionally, my continued use of this forum while waiting for my account and all content to be deleted should not be construed as consent to KBoards/Vertical Scope TOS. I continue to lurk here to monitor this thread for developments and to continually check to see that my request for account deletion has been completed. I have deleted or modified everything manually from my account, I've done what I can from my end, save for a PM to and from moderator Becca and a PM to "Philip" and also this post. I expect those to be deleted as well along with everything else.

I post all of the above publicly in this thread so that it may be 'on the record' and made clear - I do not consent to KBoards/Vertical Scope TOS - and I do not want any/all data pertaining to me to remain. I request that it ALL be deleted. I have sent a private message requesting account deletion and that all content attributed to it be forever wiped. I wish to be forgotten as per the EU's GDPR. Again, I request that this be done as soon as possible.

Thank you.

Same. I'm in the process of removing all the content from my posts. I'm doing everything I can think of to indicate as clearly as possible that I don't agree to the current TOS, changed without notifying us or getting our agreement to them.

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    Offline estelle

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #526 on: September 19, 2018, 05:26:39 pm »
    That is because no one is clear. If you fall under the GDPR criteria then we can help anonymize your account
    If you would like personal information removed from forum View then I can anonymize that as well.

    When you sign up for anything, you use the information to do so, even without a TOS you surrender that information. Since it is in the back end and not visible to others as well as in a locked environment that is securely stored (the back end) it is not considered public and therefore stays. Even with GDPR.

    We can anonymize your accounts, however.

    Helena

    I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong about this. I'm not sure you understand what GDPR is. If an EU citizen asks to have their data deleted, then you need to delete that data EVERYWHERE it is hiding in your systems, including back end, backups and archives. Not only that, you need to notify third parties to do the same if you have shared said data.
    « Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 05:53:14 pm by estel »

    Offline MyCatDoesNotConsent

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    Now I have really seen it all. If that is customer service, then... well.

    Some explanations cast light, others throw shade.

    For the record, I want to state the now traditional trifecta:

    1 - I Do Not Consent to the TOS
    2 - I want to thank the Mod Squad. Even when they rapped my knuckles, it was done as gently as possible. You are much appreciated.
    3 - I also want to thank all the contributors who have made this forum so valuable to newbies. (And some oldbies, no doubt.)

    And on the plus side, not reading this forum will give me more time to watch reality TV shows write!

    « Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 05:59:57 pm by MyCatDoesNotConsent »
    If you have taken this rubble for my past
    raking through it for fragments you could sell
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    deeper into the heart of the matter.
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    I do not consent to the new TOS

    Offline f2b4

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #528 on: September 19, 2018, 05:28:44 pm »
    Maybe rather than just delete posts, paste in the URL for the new forum with some useful SEO keywords (for link popularity for the new site).

    Then add the same text in a new post at the end of the thread and watch the fireworks.

    Offline BGArcher

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #529 on: September 19, 2018, 05:28:59 pm »
    I'm sorry, but you're wrong about this. If an EU citizen asks to have their data deleted, then you need to delete that data EVERYWHERE it is hiding in your systems, including backend, backups and archives. Not only that, you need to notify third parties to do the same if you have shared said data.

    Yeah, they are 100% correct in this. You have to delete the data.

    Offline Carol (was Dara)

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #530 on: September 19, 2018, 05:29:21 pm »
    Betsy, Anne, and Becca,

    I just want to thank you for the immense amount of time and energy you have put into moderating this forum over the years. As frustrating as this situation is for all of us, especially those of us who have been here for many years, you three have put far more hours of your lives into this forum than anybody, and I really feel like you're being screwed worst of all by these new changes. I don't know if/where I'll go from here, but it's been a pleasure to have been part of KBoards at a time when the self-publishing and Kindle community was just taking off, and your moderating was part of what made this a safe, comfortable environment in those early days. I haven't always agreed with your moderating decisions but I have always believed that you were acting in what you felt to be the best interests of the forum as a whole--even when those decisions may have brought you a lot of grief or even gone against your own personal wishes. I respect that.

    To the new owners,

    If you consider any of the people here, versus just the user content and data, to be valuable assets, I highly recommend you do everything in your power to treat the volunteer moderation staff here with respect. Over the eight years I've been a member, I've watched them devote huge chunks of their lives to this community, and the positive tone they've done their best to encourage here is part of what has kept members returning. For that matter, the freely shared knowledge of long-time users with thousands of posts (I'm not counting myself) are a major draw here, and I would suggest you do everything you can to reassure both those old users and new that you value their presence and are willing to listen to their reasonable suggestions on how to improve your TOS to make it a better fit for this specific community.



    Offline 99896

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #531 on: September 19, 2018, 05:46:39 pm »
    removed
    « Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 03:19:47 pm by thedudeminds »

    Offline David VanDyke

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #532 on: September 19, 2018, 06:22:55 pm »
    Helena is not part of this community and is not one of the mods. She speaks for the owners of the forum.

    You appear to have no idea how things should work in business. Anyone speaking for any company's owners should know what their subordinates are doing and what their policies are. If they suddenly appear and work against those subordinates (the mods) by undermining their policies, that's telling, don't you think? It's evidence of hypocrisy, disarray, bad business practices, cluelessness--and sometimes, it's revealing of what's really happening.

    Offline David VanDyke

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #533 on: September 19, 2018, 06:28:59 pm »
    David, do you think that's fair? I'm not sure how the mods are supposed to put the owners of the board on "post moderation." I imagine that would only result in them being removed from their positions (which, God knows, at this point would probably be a blessing for them).

    It's utterly fair to hold "management" responsible, collectively, for the train wreck we are all watching--the owners, the mods, and anyone else involved in running KBoards.

    Note that holding them responsible is not the same as saying who's at fault, in the same way the President (whomever it is) is responsible for running the country, but not necessarily at fault for the actions of any individual member of their administration.
    « Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 06:35:52 pm by David VanDyke »

    Offline John Twipnook

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #534 on: September 19, 2018, 06:34:42 pm »
    Betsy, Anne, and Becca,

    Sorry. I don't know what to say.
    "My girlfriend moved in with another guy, so I dumped her, because that's where I draw the line." Garry Shandling

    Offline A Dark Path

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #535 on: September 19, 2018, 06:49:47 pm »
    That is because no one is clear. If you fall under the GDPR criteria then we can help anonymize your account
    If you would like personal information removed from forum View then I can anonymize that as well.

    When you sign up for anything, you use the information to do so, even without a TOS you surrender that information. Since it is in the back end and not visible to others as well as in a locked environment that is securely stored (the back end) it is not considered public and therefore stays. Even with GDPR.

    We can anonymize your accounts, however.

    Helena

    Actually, no.
    I've been lurking throughout this thread, my thoughts leaning toward those copyright protections set down by Shane. I was interested to see how long it would take someone from your end to step-up, and hopefully dispel some worries.
    I have to say your opening lines were a doozy... and not in a good way.

    Anyhow, perhaps your company has a representative who actually understands the implications of GDPR, because it seems you do not.

    Firstly, with regards your sneaked in TOS: Consent under GDPR must be active, requiring affirmative action by the data subject, rather than the passive acceptance under some current models that allow for pre-ticked boxes or opt-outs.
    Controllers (that's you) must keep a record of how and when an individual gave their consent, and that individual may withdraw their consent whenever they want. Your current model for obtaining consent must be in place for when the GDPR applies in 2018.

    Secondly, any citizen can withdraw consent whenever they like. They might do so because they object to how an organisation is processing their information, or simply because they don't want it collected anymore. In this instance all data will be removed.
    The controller (again, that's you) is responsible for telling other organisations (for instance, Facebook, Google, PhishingScams.com, etc) to delete all links to copies of that data, as well as the copies themselves.

    Thirdly, it may be worth mentioning for those covered by GDPR, if you wish to transfer any of the data you have posted here, and use it elsewhere; the controllers (Vertical Scope) are required to assist you - and to assist you swiftly: the legislation means citizens can expect to have a request honored within four weeks. Controllers must ensure the requested data is in an open, common format such as CSV, meaning that when it moves to another provider it can still be read.

    Helena, I hope this helps to clarify your obligations under GDPR. It is a worldwide regulation, affecting all companies holding data on EU residents/citizens.
    « Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 01:57:44 am by David Brian »

    Offline meh

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #536 on: September 19, 2018, 06:57:47 pm »
    After reading up on some of the other websites acquired by Verticalscope, I have to say one thing . . . I wonder if this company really understands the bee hive they've stirred up in angering a group of INDIE PUBLISHED WRITERS. Oh, the damage that could be done . . . .

    As the Bard wrote, "Good my lord, will you see the players well bestowed? Do you hear, let them be well used, for they are the abstract and brief chronicles of the time. After your death you were better have a bad epitaph than their ill report while you live."


    Offline 69959

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #537 on: September 19, 2018, 07:00:52 pm »
    Maybe someone in the EU should report the VS/Kboards TOS and policies to the GDPR governing authorities. They obviously don't care about complying.

    Offline A Dark Path

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #538 on: September 19, 2018, 07:05:50 pm »
    Maybe someone in the EU should report the VS/Kboards TOS and policies to the GDPR governing authorities. They obviously don't care about complying.

    To be fair, Oily, as they themselves stated, they have 30 days to comply to requests. Nothing much can happen before then.

    Offline Gertie Kindle

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #539 on: September 19, 2018, 07:07:10 pm »
    Betsy, Anne, and Becca,

    I just want to thank you for the immense amount of time and energy you have put into moderating this forum over the years. As frustrating as this situation is for all of us, especially those of us who have been here for many years, you three have put far more hours of your lives into this forum than anybody, and I really feel like you're being screwed worst of all by these new changes. I don't know if/where I'll go from here, but it's been a pleasure to have been part of KBoards at a time when the self-publishing and Kindle community was just taking off, and your moderating was part of what made this a safe, comfortable environment in those early days. I haven't always agreed with your moderating decisions but I have always believed that you were acting in what you felt to be the best interests of the forum as a whole--even when those decisions may have brought you a lot of grief or even gone against your own personal wishes. I respect that.


    This and more. It's been a privilege to know you.

    Offline 69959

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #540 on: September 19, 2018, 07:14:03 pm »
    To be fair, Oily, as they themselves stated, they have 30 days to comply to requests. Nothing much can happen before then.

    They're saying they will only anonymize the account, not delete the information:
    Actually, no.
    I've been lurking throughout this thread, my thoughts leaning toward those copyright protections set down by Shane. I was interested to see how long it would take someone from your end to step-up, and hopefully dispel some worries.
    I have to say your opening lines were a doozy... and not in a good way.

    Anyhow, perhaps your company has a representative who actually understands the implications of GDPR, because it seems you do not.

    Firstly, with regards your sneaked in TOS: Consent under GDPR must be active, requiring affirmative action by the data subject, rather than the passive acceptance under some current models that allow for pre-ticked boxes or opt-outs.
    Controllers (that's you) must keep a record of how and when an individual gave their consent, and that individual may withdraw their consent whenever they want. Your current model for obtaining consent must be in place for when the GDPR applies in 2018.

    Secondly, any citizen can withdraw consent whenever they like. They might do so because they object to how an organisation is processing their information, or simply because they don't want it collected anymore. In this instance all data will be removed.
    The controller (again, that's you) is responsible for telling other organisations (for instance, Facebook, Google, PhishingScams.com, etc) to delete all and any links to copies of that data, as well as the copies themselves.

    Thirdly, it may be worth mentioning for those covered by GDPR, if you wish to transfer any of the data you have posted here, and use it elsewhere; the controllers (Vertical Scope) are required to assist you - and to assist you swiftly: the legislation means citizens can expect to have a request honored within four weeks. Controllers must ensure the requested data is in an open, common format such as CSV, meaning that when it moves to another provider it can still be read.

    Helena, I hope this helps to clarify your obligations under GDPR. It is a worldwide regulation, affecting all companies holding data on EU residents/citizens.

    Offline MClayton

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #541 on: September 19, 2018, 07:22:03 pm »
    It's utterly fair to hold "management" responsible, collectively, for the train wreck we are all watching--the owners, the mods, and anyone else involved in running KBoards.

    Note that holding them responsible is not the same as saying who's at fault, in the same way the President (whomever it is) is responsible for running the country, but not necessarily at fault for the actions of any individual member of their administration.

    I'm unsure what you want the mods to do, or what you think they have the power to do. I'm also confused by your analogy.

    The President holds the power. According to you, the President is responsible for what the people under him do (even though he may not be at fault). I agree with this.

    But the moderators don't hold the power. According to your analogy, the moderators are responsible for what the people who hold the power do (even though they may not be at fault).

    That's not how it works.

    If you read the thread, you'll see that the power of the moderators is already being stripped away.

    At any rate, the very last thing I want to do is get sidetracked from the real issue. And I'd really hate to see us pull a Lord of the Flies-type scenario and start attacking our own.
    « Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 07:33:17 pm by MClayton »

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    Offline Betsy the Quilter

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #542 on: September 19, 2018, 07:59:09 pm »
    I am offended by this fair and accurate assessment.

    Luv ya
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    Offline Nicholas

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #543 on: September 19, 2018, 08:27:55 pm »
    I don't know about all of you guys, but I'm fascinated with Vertiscope's apparent business model. It's shady and mysterious. It's international. It involves piles and piles of money. I think this is exactly the type of story that something like NPR's planet money or Freakanomics would love to explore. This whole fiasco touches on all kinds of hot topics like privacy, cyber security, GDPR, copyright laws, information manipulation and the state of public discourse. Nearly everyone has some nostalgia for the quirky little forums that used to be ubiquitous before Facebook and Reddit came along, and they might like a story about the little underdog communities pushing back. 

    You would think a community of writers would be able to convince a major outlet that this is a story that's got legs.

    Offline 39416

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #544 on: September 19, 2018, 08:37:17 pm »
    I admit, I'm confused.

    I'm just a prawnie author. Could somebody describe for me the worst-case scenario of what this company can do to me because of my posting here? I don't really understand what it is I'm supposed to be worried about. They might re-post my posts somewhere? They might sell my email address? Is that it?

    Offline Fay

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #545 on: September 19, 2018, 08:44:40 pm »
    I'm new to this board, and I've been so impressed with the real community feeling here and the skilled moderators. You don't get a strong community like this without very good moderation. Just wanted to voice my appreciation.

    Offline Patty Jansen

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #546 on: September 19, 2018, 08:52:05 pm »
    I admit, I'm confused.

    I'm just a prawnie author. Could somebody describe for me the worst-case scenario of what this company can do to me because of my posting here? I don't really understand what it is I'm supposed to be worried about. They might re-post my posts somewhere? They might sell my email address? Is that it?

    I'm a bit like you, but not so prawny, and have been online for a long time. I don't really see what they can do with the info other than target ads at me, and loads of people are already doing that so see if I care, because I really don't.

    That said...

    Not notifying us of the changes in TOS is NOT COOL.
    Not replying to concerns was NOT COOL.
    Helena's "response" was DEFINITELY NOT COOL.

    And it's getting to the point where I'm like IDGAF about my stuff here. It's mostly banter and eh. It would have been really nice to have been notified, but I get it, big company, different priorities yada yada.

    But to let someone as unprofessional as that loose in an already charged environment and insult all of us?

    I don't have to put up with that BS on top of all the other BS.

    I have loved the KB because of the community. I might just log out for the first time since 2011, close the tab and go somewhere else. We don't have to put up with people who don't respect us. I've been invited into a lot of cool FB groups today.

    What a pity that Facebook appears to have temporarily and goofily removed the ability for almost everyone in Australia and New Zealand to see comments. Gah. Maybe I should go and write.

    Offline AltMe

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #547 on: September 19, 2018, 09:00:23 pm »
    WE DO NOT OWN... nor want... the copyright to your material. We do however own the RIGHTS to your posted content (images, text any raw posted information)

    You have ZERO rights to any book covers displayed here. Book covers are a special case, and they involve rights assigned by artists to authors, licenses and rights involving the owners of specific images on the cover, and often publisher contracts.


    You have NO RIGHT to anything to do with book covers, and never will.

    OK have them contact our lawyers.

    Word to the wise. That attitude in here will just make things worse. And apparently has.


    And before you think it will be joe bloggs local lawyer calling, if it comes down to it, authors will be contacting the really big author associations who have lawyers on staff to deal with anything author related. If enough of us complain to them, you'll be dealing with lawyers who deal with author issues all day every day. And they will be telling yours all about the law regarding author rights.

    And as it happens, it might actually be an idea for those who can explain this situation coherently to start contacting the associations for advice. I think we need a heavy hitter in here. Both for cover rights, other author related rights, and the whole EU legislation thing.
    Gone to WriterSanctum.

    I do not consent to the new TOS, and do not give my consent by posting and maintaining my membership here.

    *** Warning: If you are reading this post more than 6 months after it was posted, the information in it is out of date, and useless to you. The eBook market changes rapidly, and advice more than 6 months old is out of date. Use at your own risk! ***

    Offline TheWriterFormerly

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #548 on: September 19, 2018, 09:37:23 pm »
    Based on this thread, it seems the fight is not going to end any time soon. My purge has begun in earnest and I reitterate my refusal to accept all claims foisted on users by this new TOS. See you all in the void.
    Do not message me, for I am not here. Do not seek my wisdom, for it has departed this place.

    I do not, nor will I ever, provide any consent, living or dead, to the smuggled in ToS rammed into place without notice by VS who failed to notify users of the changes which include ludicrous rights grabs of content, and personal information.

    Offline 75814

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #549 on: September 19, 2018, 09:39:36 pm »
    I wasn't worried about the TOS changes. They seemed unnecessarily broad, but struck me more as the kind of stupid thing some idiot's barely competent cousin in the legal department thought up as opposed to something actively malicious. So I wasn't going to stress over it.

    But that was before I read Helena's completely unprofessional response. And then I did a search for "VerticalScope problems." Seems this company has a habit of taking over boards, driving them into the ground, and taking a giant crap on the members. I found several forums with "Open Letter to VerticalScope" posts complaining about increases in spam, ignoring technical issues, and lack of communication.

    Congratulations, VS. You just saw a minor grease fire and went, "Y'know what this fire needs? A few gallons of gasoline."

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