Author Topic: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately? (MERGED)  (Read 91761 times)  

Offline Used To Be BH

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Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
« Reply #400 on: September 19, 2018, 12:27:41 pm »
If a member of the Bar in any of the fifty states is willing to clarify my interpretation with case law to the contrary, I am more than willing to be persuaded otherwise.   

In the meantime, it is my understanding, by a plain text reading of the statute, that by operation of federal law it is impossible to assign a copyright, equity or a license to any copyrighted work in the United States without a written instrument signed by the author or the author's agent.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/204 

Under the United States Copyright Act of 1976, copyright vests the moment any eligible work is fixed in a tangible medium.

While the TOS may claim ownership of what we post, according to 17 U.S.C. Section 204 it isn't enforceable.  Once copyright vests in the author, it cannot be conveyed legally (assigned or licensed) without a signature on a physical document.  Period. 

P.S. Despite the fact the TOS belongs to a Canadian company, the Berne Convention still allows U.S. law to prevail.  Canada and the U.S. are both signatories.
I think I said this earlier, but the statute you're citing refers to ownership of copyright. It doesn't directly address licensing of copyrighted materials, which is what the TOS alleges we're doing.
I have not consented to the new Terms of Service, which were implemented without any announcement and without the ability to accept or reject them. My continued participation on the forum is related only to addressing this issue and cannot be construed as implied consent.  9/19/2018

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    Offline Shane Lochlann Black

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #401 on: September 19, 2018, 12:33:25 pm »
    Under federal law a "transfer of ownership" subsumes all but non-exclusive licenses. 

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=17-USC-1015724446-364936160&term_occur=5&term_src=title:17:chapter:2:section:204 

    Further, a copyright owner may withdraw or place conditions on their permission to exploit their works at any time, just like a landlord can issue notice to vacate. 



    Offline Tulonsae

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #402 on: September 19, 2018, 12:34:56 pm »
    Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.
    « Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 04:40:15 pm by Tulonsae »
    I do not agree to the terms in the TOS Change of 2018. I have removed all the content that I had access to remove. All the best to everyone!

    bardsandsages

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #403 on: September 19, 2018, 12:46:43 pm »
    Because this thread is 20 pages, I've highlighted the problematic parts of the TOS and created a timeline of events in the event members are put in a position where we need to file formal complaints in order to get our content removed. I've always found having dates available to be very helpful with these things.

    https://bardsandsages.com/**********/2018/09/19/verticalscopes-overreaching-tos/

    Offline Mercedes Vox

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #404 on: September 19, 2018, 01:01:35 pm »
    I do know that my spam bucket is getting about twice the load it got before all this came about.

    Same here. And I have multiple email addresses (too many), and the only one suddenly registering a very noticeable increase in spam is the one that also happens to be associated with my Kboards account. Could be a coincidence, but . . . . \_(ツ)_/

    It's enough to make me think that deleting anything now is shutting the barn door after the horse has already bolted. And with a database this size, I can't imagine they don't have the whole thing backed up anyway, in case of a crash.
    I do not accept or consent to KBoards/VerticalScope's May 2018 revision of their (with no notification of same) TOS. As I await a response to the Writers' Cafe community from VerticalScope "legal" regarding this issue, my continued use of this forum should not be construed as consent to or acceptance of KBoards/VerticalScope's TOS as it currently exists. Dated: September 19, 2018.
    Mercedes Vox

    Offline 71202

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #405 on: September 19, 2018, 01:02:37 pm »
    Well he said to email account deletion requests to him, I did so from my registered email with my username.  I'll give it a week.  That seems like a reasonable period of time to me. 

    Offline 25803

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #406 on: September 19, 2018, 01:03:41 pm »
    Because this thread is 20 pages, I've highlighted the problematic parts of the TOS and created a timeline of events in the event members are put in a position where we need to file formal complaints in order to get our content removed. I've always found having dates available to be very helpful with these things.

    https://bardsandsages.com/juliedawson/2018/09/19/verticalscopes-overreaching-tos/

    I sent my request for deletion and registered my rejection of the new TOS to Philip today.

    Julie, can we use your exact wording for our signatures. Thanks.

    Offline vsAdmin

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #407 on: September 19, 2018, 01:04:36 pm »
    Hello All,

    Helena here :) I am the director of Community Management here at VS and have been with the company for 8 years. I am and have been for over 15 years a forum user. I am an active user on 3 forums and in my youth was active on over 10.

    Why I am telling you this, well because I want you to understand that I am a forum user as well as an employee of verticalscope.

    I have read through all I can on here and have to say that it seems like there is more trolling going on in this thread than actual relevant debate. When My team posts to you instead of talking to the points some people resort to troll tactics and just wish to confuse everyone and take away from the topic.

    SO .... Let's have a real conversation about this.

    I chose to quote Shane Lochlann Black because he has posted the most accurate to what the law is.

    The TOS is broad yes, correct, but as you all know people are sue happy so we cover our bases.

    WE DO NOT OWN... nor want... the copyright to your material. We do however own the RIGHTS to your posted content (images, text any raw posted information) Now there is a big difference between copyright and rights.

    Copyright means we are liable for your content. So if you wrote a biography essay about Kim Kardashian and posted it on here and in said article used defamatory information she could sue us. Since we would own the copyright to that content. I will take it one step further, if you posted child pornography and we owned the copyright, we would be charged. (sorry I know that is extream but highlights the point).

    Owning the rights to your content on the forum means we own the right to have your content here and to use that content on the site. Why do we do this and need to say this well, me quoting Shane Lochlann Black, for example, if the site did not own the rights, he could come after me as a user and sue me for copying his content. Or if we posted your thread on the home page, or in a newsletter, we need the rights to do that.

    It means that you gave the site permission to post on it. - now we don't technically need a TOS, since the internet is an open forum and when you post on the internet you automatically give that place the rights to that content. Larger companies needs more protection then that. This is a privatly owned forum, so by signing up and posting you gave that right to the old owner without a TOS, If that wasnt the case, we couldnt buy sites.

    Now there are many a legitimate question in here. I would like to answer all of them. So if we can stick to legitimate questions and concerns and try to keep them in a singular place or post. so that means if the question was asked please don't ask again.

    I read that users (authors) are upset about I think google ad works showing up to guests, I can have it turned off in the author's section.

    Look we will make mistakes, something you don't like will happen, but I assure you we will fix it and work with you all. But the post blasting, and trolling is not the right way to go about it.

    The sky isn't falling and we are not the devel. We won't reply real time to a post or a PM, because we can't be online every second. But we will try to answer you when we can.

    Now if you still want clarification about the TOS I can have my legal team answer some questions, so work together and put them into a single post that is easy to work with and I can make that happen.

    If there is someone who feels cheated about the site being sold PM us ask for Helena and gives us your email address and I will email you back.

    Before you think the sky is falling take a breather. We are not here to steal your content and sell it for profit if we did that we would not be very successful and people would not be inclined to sell to us.

    I hope this helps, and I hope we can have a better conversation about this. I appreciate you all reading this.

    Side note, I am a read-a-holic and am trying to read a book a week this year. I have been snooping around for books I may want to read :D ... ok off topic I know

    Helena


    If a member of the Bar in any of the fifty states is willing to clarify my interpretation with case law to the contrary, I am more than willing to be persuaded otherwise.   

    In the meantime, it is my understanding, by a plain text reading of the statute, that by operation of federal law it is impossible to assign a copyright, equity or a license to any copyrighted work in the United States without a written instrument signed by the author or the author's agent.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/204 

    Under the United States Copyright Act of 1976, copyright vests the moment any eligible work is fixed in a tangible medium.

    While the TOS may claim ownership of what we post, according to 17 U.S.C. Section 204 it isn't enforceable.  Once copyright vests in the author, it cannot be conveyed legally (assigned or licensed) without a signature on a physical document.  Period. 

    P.S. Despite the fact the TOS belongs to a Canadian company, the Berne Convention still allows U.S. law to prevail.  Canada and the U.S. are both signatories. 


    Offline My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #408 on: September 19, 2018, 01:07:16 pm »
    Same here. And I have multiple email addresses (too many), and the only one suddenly registering a very noticeable increase in spam is the one that also happens to be associated with my Kboards account. Could be a coincidence, but . . . . \_(ツ)_/

    It's enough to make me think that deleting anything now is shutting the barn door after the horse has already bolted. And with a database this size, I can't imagine they don't have the whole thing backed up anyway, in case of a crash.

    While it is true that the harvested data is still in their paws, the value of such data amortizes.

    The value here is the number of people arriving to the board via searches, primarily on Google.

    Deleting your posts gives Google bounces when it displays a post in a search and it's not there anymore. That hurts SEO if it happens enough, but usually, it's the whole thread that comes up in search results, so no foul.

    On the other hand, when you replace all your posts with "Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms," then whatever you had in that post that would inspire or give weight to a search result disappears. Less results = less clicks.

    Also, if you replace the post with the above (or anything you choose) then THAT is what gets saved to backups. So, if it dumps and they put it back up, it will show your empty posts only.
    I've been told that my signature is too long, so here is the BLUF. Don't click anything if you got here via Google. Your data is now theirs.

    No, I do not agree to the TOS. I didn't sign up under it and don't agree. Further, you don't own any of my stuff. Period. I'm overwriting and deleting it all, and I highly recommend you who are reading this do the same. Focus on that which gives good Google-Fu.

    Offline Chad Winters

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #409 on: September 19, 2018, 01:08:42 pm »
    Sad Days......I wonder how much they paid for a site that will soon be empty

    Member since 10/28/2008 | (make your own reading bar)

    Offline My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #410 on: September 19, 2018, 01:10:28 pm »
    OMG...we just got called trolls.

    Isn't that against the forum decorum?
    I've been told that my signature is too long, so here is the BLUF. Don't click anything if you got here via Google. Your data is now theirs.

    No, I do not agree to the TOS. I didn't sign up under it and don't agree. Further, you don't own any of my stuff. Period. I'm overwriting and deleting it all, and I highly recommend you who are reading this do the same. Focus on that which gives good Google-Fu.

    Offline vsAdmin

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #411 on: September 19, 2018, 01:13:15 pm »
    OMG...we just got called trolls.

    Isn't that against the forum decorum?

    To my point :) Thanks for helping me prove it :)

    And to your point, I am not calling everyone a troll I am saying troll tactics are being used. Like pinpointing one phrase out of context of the original thread.

    Helena

    Offline 97251

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #412 on: September 19, 2018, 01:17:57 pm »
    Quote
    if the site did not own the rights, he could come after me as a user and sue me for copying his content. Or if we posted your thread on the home page, or in a newsletter, we need the rights to do that.

    That's one of the issues. These TOS allow VS to post the content elsewhere, such as in a different website or a newsletter.

    Why would VS want to post content from this site on a newsletter?

    OK, it was an example, but  as an example, it exemplifies the problem.

    Offline vsAdmin

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #413 on: September 19, 2018, 01:18:20 pm »
    Because this thread is 20 pages, I've highlighted the problematic parts of the TOS and created a timeline of events in the event members are put in a position where we need to file formal complaints in order to get our content removed. I've always found having dates available to be very helpful with these things.

    https://bardsandsages.com/juliedawson/2018/09/19/verticalscopes-overreaching-tos/

    Thank you for this :) Much appreciated that took time I am sure.

    I will work with my legal team to get you the correct answers to your concerns.

    I would like to highlight though if you have concerns about something especially something with legal wording talk to a lawyer who can properly explain the wording of something instead of interpreting yourself. I am not trying to be rude here, sorry if it comes off that way.

    Helena

    Offline 98700

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #414 on: September 19, 2018, 01:19:29 pm »
    OMG...we just got called trolls.

    Isn't that against the forum decorum?

    I know, right? Walks in here and immediately calls us trolls. Totally someone who wants a rational and open discussion. Not to mention breaking the forum's own rules, which means she hasn't read them. And assumes that we'll be satisfied with someone coming on and "clarifying the TOS" as if the problem is that we don't understand it or that we need our heads patted and assured they won't use the TOS how the TOS as written could be used.

     ::)

    To my point :) Thanks for helping me prove it :)

    And to your point, I am not calling everyone a troll I am saying troll tactics are being used. Like pinpointing one phrase out of context of the original thread.

    Helena

    In what way does someone pointing out that calling us trolls is against forum rules count as trolling? (And yes, "You're using troll tactics," is the same as calling us trolls.)

    Offline Tulonsae

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #415 on: September 19, 2018, 01:20:35 pm »
    Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.
    « Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 04:40:41 pm by Tulonsae »
    I do not agree to the terms in the TOS Change of 2018. I have removed all the content that I had access to remove. All the best to everyone!

    bardsandsages

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #416 on: September 19, 2018, 01:23:07 pm »
    To my point :) Thanks for helping me prove it :)

    WOW. Just...WOW....I don't even...

    Can you provide us with an ETA on when our requests to have our accounts deleted and content removed will be honored? because as Phoenix and others have noted, this is not a privacy issue but a contractual issue. Because I don't agree to the retroactive TOS, and despite your patronizing commentary, nothing you said negates the fact that, legally, the TOS allows you to grant rights to both my posts and my actual NAME to whomever you see fit for whatever reason you see fit. This is a critical issue for writers, and your promises to be good don't negate what the TOS actually says.

    Your TOS goes far beyond what is needed to run the site, and even goes further than Facebook (I already pointed this out in a previous post).

    Offline 97251

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #417 on: September 19, 2018, 01:23:23 pm »
    And assumes that we'll be satisfied with someone coming on and "clarifying the TOS" as if the problem is that we don't understand it or that we need our heads patted and assured they won't use the TOS how the TOS as written could be used.


    Well, she literally claims that we don't understand the terms



    I would like to highlight though if you have concerns about something especially something with legal wording talk to a lawyer who can properly explain the wording of something instead of interpreting yourself.

    Helena

    Many authors here actually consulted their lawyers, who agreed that the TOS were problematic.

    Offline 71202

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #418 on: September 19, 2018, 01:25:21 pm »
    Regardless of how VericalScope perceives this situation the PR ship has saled and I have requested full account deletion.  I expect that request to be actioned along with all like requests.  That request is reasonable absolutely regardless of context.  I have no interest in getting involved in the narrative of intent VS staff are creating.

    Offline AlexaGrave

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #419 on: September 19, 2018, 01:27:11 pm »
    Since I am still here despite sending in my notice, buried under the otherwise mundane list of "you shall not's" is this:

    So we are not allowed to:

    The act of TELLING SOMEONE NOT TO USE THIS SITE is a violation of the TOS?

    The act of promoting a new forum is a violation of the TOS

    Kickstarter threads? Violation.

    GoFundMe threads? Violation.

    New book threads? Violation.

    Offering a service? Violation.

    I've been lurking in the thread for the most part since it started. Pretty much sitting on the fence until I see where this all lands (people like Julie anyhow express and summarize things much better than I ever could, so leaving the discussion up to others is for the better - heh).

    The privacy issues aside (I'm still observing the back and forth on this), as a person who offers services on the forum, I'm honestly curious with these new terms that Julie is referring to in the quoted post above, if I should be posting on my services thread anymore. I also am curious if this means the awesome Yellow Pages functionality of Kboards is against these terms as well? Are these new terms a precursor to changing some of the very useful functionality of Kboards? Or was this simply a mistake to include such "do nots" because they used a blanket ToS for all of their forums?

    I think it was a huge mistake on VS's part to use the same ToS for all of their forums. Not all forums are the same, and as such one blanket ToS for many different forums could go completely against things that are already in place.
    « Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 01:31:07 pm by AlexaGrave »

    Offline vsAdmin

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #420 on: September 19, 2018, 01:29:36 pm »
    Thanks for that, Helena. But you did not address the concerns expressed here about our rights to privacy with respect to our names, email addresses, website links, etc. And it would seem that changing the TOS to address our concerns is not on the table.

    That is because no one is clear. If you fall under the GDPR criteria then we can help anonymize your account
    If you would like personal information removed from forum View then I can anonymize that as well.

    When you sign up for anything, you use the information to do so, even without a TOS you surrender that information. Since it is in the back end and not visible to others as well as in a locked environment that is securely stored (the back end) it is not considered public and therefore stays. Even with GDPR.

    We can anonymize your accounts, however.

    Helena


    Offline vsAdmin

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #421 on: September 19, 2018, 01:30:08 pm »
    Umm.... Julie did talk to a lawyer. So did a few of the other folks.

    OK have their lawyer call our lawyer.

    Offline 71202

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #422 on: September 19, 2018, 01:31:12 pm »
    For people who run forums they seem very surprised by normal social-media-type things happening on a rapid time scale. How many actual active forums do they own... and how much if anything did they pay for this one?

    Offline MyraScott

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #423 on: September 19, 2018, 01:32:21 pm »
    And the end is heralded with a single word; the forbidden word.

    Troll
    It's all spider food now
    Send your comments to VerticalScope directly- they aren't reading anything here.
    https://www.verticalscope.com/contact-us/connect-with-us.html

    Offline My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

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    Re: Has any one noticed the terms of service for KB lately?
    « Reply #424 on: September 19, 2018, 01:32:42 pm »

    Quote
    OMG...we just got called trolls.

    Isn't that against the forum decorum?

    To my point :) Thanks for helping me prove it :)

    And to your point, I am not calling everyone a troll I am saying troll tactics are being used. Like pinpointing one phrase out of context of the original thread.

    Helena

    Helena - Trolling is a specific, though occasionally subjective, term. In this thread, not everyone understands everything everyone else means, but there is no trolling. All is relevant to the topic, meant to clarify understanding of said topic, often meant to add to the aggregate knowledge of the group with respect to the topic, and generally useful.

    None of that is trolling.

    Second, trolling is a banned word here. It's not allowed. To accuse someone of that is to fling the highest of insults aimed at their actual code of conduct and internal character.

    In case you're not up on the definition of troll, here's a handy reference:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

    Quite frankly, if the company that bought this board's first response to a valid issue is to post that anyone concerned with it is using troll tactics, then one must question many things.
    I've been told that my signature is too long, so here is the BLUF. Don't click anything if you got here via Google. Your data is now theirs.

    No, I do not agree to the TOS. I didn't sign up under it and don't agree. Further, you don't own any of my stuff. Period. I'm overwriting and deleting it all, and I highly recommend you who are reading this do the same. Focus on that which gives good Google-Fu.

    KBoards.com

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