Author Topic: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?  (Read 37173 times)  

Offline Rachel Craft

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Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
« on: March 16, 2020, 08:57:18 pm »
So I am on Youtube and researching about kindle publishing, and I'm seeing a LOT of ads from a pair of young guys called the Mikkelsen Twins. They claim to be making a six figure income from publishing with something called "ghost audio". Apparently the premise is, based on their presentation, that they outsource material and then publish it for profits. This sounds interesting but as anything with online marketing these days I'm a bit of a skeptic. I've done some research elsewhere and from what I can determine they aren't in cahoots with any "credible" authors or anyone in the publishing space.

Is it a scam and if so why in the world is Youtube allowing these guys to promote? What's the general consensus on these blokes?



Edited to restore the thread's original title. KBoards' prefers specific, evidence-based descriptions to name-calling. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca
« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 11:23:46 pm by Becca Mills »

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    Offline Patty Jansen

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #1 on: March 16, 2020, 09:32:24 pm »
    I don't know about these particular ones but the model is this:

    Get a book of about 25k written and narrated as cheaply as possible. Distribute via ACX. Give out the 200 codes you get. Times 1000

    ETA. at this point in time I'd call it a dodgy "scheme" not quite a scam because ACX legit allows you to do this. Of course now the audio selection clutters up with short stories of dubious quality and Amazon will act once it's had enough emails from p*ssed-off listeners about it or something else that equates bad PR for Amazon (bat phone to David Gaughran).

    Offline Rachel Craft

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #2 on: March 16, 2020, 09:36:35 pm »
    I don't know about these particular ones but the model is this:

    Get a book of about 25k written and narrated as cheaply as possible. Distribute via ACX. Give out the 200 codes you get. Times 1000

    I figured, but does anyone really need to pay their fee of 1000 bucks to learn something that is a short term hack at best? I thought there would be maybe more substance to it? Oh well. Lots of hucksters these days. I'll just keep a cautious eye with these internet marketers trying to milk publishing and move on.

    Offline Patty Jansen

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #3 on: March 16, 2020, 09:37:38 pm »
    I figured, but does anyone really need to pay their fee of 1000 bucks to learn something that is a short term hack at best? I thought there would be maybe more substance to it? Oh well. Lots of hucksters these days. I'll just keep a cautious eye with these internet marketers trying to milk publishing and move on.

    YUP

    But sadly it's been thus since about 2013

    Offline MajesticMonkey

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #4 on: March 17, 2020, 11:22:04 am »
    I figured, but does anyone really need to pay their fee of 1000 bucks to learn something that is a short term hack at best? I thought there would be maybe more substance to it? Oh well. Lots of hucksters these days. I'll just keep a cautious eye with these internet marketers trying to milk publishing and move on.
    Look them up on youtube and see what kind of doofuses these guys are. Hint: they got banned for publishing Google translated books and have a lengthy video on that. These guys probably make more of their courses than their publishing. I'd look for more suitable teachers.

    Offline Wayne Stinnett

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #5 on: March 18, 2020, 06:14:42 am »
    If it smells like monkey dung, get out of the jungle. Trust your gut.
    My Bestselling, 18-volume Jesse McDermitt Series and the spinoff,  5-volume Charity Styles Series, also bestsellers, are available in ebook, audiobook, and paperback, wherever books are sold. In my motivational non-fiction, Blue Collar to No Collar, I provide tips, advice, and strategies for new authors, also available in the same formats. Don't forget to visit the Ship's Store for Jesse McDermitt swag.
    Wayne Stinnett | Website | Facebook | Amazon Author Page | Twitter | Talk Write Podcast | Ship's Store

    Offline Llano

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #6 on: March 18, 2020, 06:55:34 am »
    Reminds me of the people who ran get-rich-in-real-estate infomercials back in the 80s. Most of them got rich by selling courses, not real estate. Before that were full-page newspaper ads promoting various get-rich schemes. Nearly, probably all, of them were schemes to get rich by selling courses to other suckers.

    In the late 80s, early 90s, get-rich-with-government-auctions was all the rage, again, selling courses, not actually buying at auctions and selling. I was in the auction business at the time and loved to see those suckers come in with their pockets stuffed with C-notes that ended up in my pocket.

    Offline unkownwriter

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #7 on: March 18, 2020, 02:10:03 pm »
    Oh, honey, they make their money from you, and others like you, who pay them a thousand bucks for information that is either dodgy ethically, goes against TOS, or is outright illegal.

    There is no easy money in writing. None. Everything requires time, effort, knowledge and money. ROI for most is negligible, if there's any at all. Write because you can't not write. Learn the publishing business, and marketing, or go for the traditional publishing contract (and you'll still need the marketing), but don't fall for that easy passive income nonsense.

    Offline jb1111

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #8 on: March 18, 2020, 05:56:12 pm »
    Another fellow KBoarder posted a couple links to their videos a few months back. They reminded me of Wayne's World without the air guitar.

    There are probably tons of people trying to make money telling you how to make a fast buck on the Zon.

    Some of them may be legit, I wouldn't really know personally as don't follow any of them. I'd rather trust what I read here and a couple other places where the actual authors hang out. Just my two cents on it.

    Offline clare30690

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #9 on: June 01, 2020, 11:09:53 am »
    I was also curious, and finally, I thought I'd give it a try. Thinking about the worst-case I'll ask for a refund. But when I joined the course, and the FB community group I realized that this really works. All you need is to learn and show the dedication to apply what you learn. The results are not the same for everyone, I just started week 2 of the course now and tbh I learned a lot. Not sure if I'm gonna get the results like others in the group who's making 10k or more p.m. but it's worth the price and a legitimate one. They do live Q&A call biweekly, this made me satisfied that people are real and I can ask all my questions.

    Offline antcurious

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #10 on: June 01, 2020, 12:29:31 pm »
    I was also curious, and finally, I thought I'd give it a try. Thinking about the worst-case I'll ask for a refund. But when I joined the course, and the FB community group I realized that this really works. All you need is to learn and show the dedication to apply what you learn. The results are not the same for everyone, I just started week 2 of the course now and tbh I learned a lot. Not sure if I'm gonna get the results like others in the group who's making 10k or more p.m. but it's worth the price and a legitimate one. They do live Q&A call biweekly, this made me satisfied that people are real and I can ask all my questions.

    Absolutely nothing dodgy about this 1st post at all.

    JK Neve | Goodreads

    Offline TaraCrescent

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #11 on: June 01, 2020, 01:04:30 pm »
    Not to mention that if the path to riches involves the money you make from giving away your audiobook codes, Amazon has closed that particular loophole.

    Offline C. Gold

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #12 on: June 01, 2020, 01:05:04 pm »
    And this is why ACX codes no longer give you money.

    Offline wearywanderer64

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #13 on: June 01, 2020, 03:09:08 pm »
    I remember we had a guy on here once asking for advice on how to sell his book. Guess what it was about.


    -------------------------------------------MARKETING-----------------------------------------

    You couldn't make it up.


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    Offline David VanDyke

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #14 on: June 01, 2020, 05:11:00 pm »
    If it looks too good to be true, it is.

    If it's a "secret" to making money, nobody will be selling it to you. They will use it themselves.

    If you ever wonder about any of these schemes, just put in the name of the product, course or proponent, and the word "scam," and see what comes up.

    Offline Drathaar

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Publishing Life are a SCAM!
    « Reply #15 on: August 08, 2020, 10:08:16 pm »
    These two jokers have lost their Amazon accounts - KDP, Merch, and ACX. Before handing them your money, ask yourself why. Black hat tactics. Amazon always finds out. They've lost the support of all the reputable people in the business. They started out with a bang. I liked them. I even bought their course, something I'm not proud of now. Ashamed is a better word.

    They have, or had, a video about getting review swaps. Not saying they were bad, saying you had to do them. Christian lost his KDP account for using software to translate books to Spanish. I pay a translater just to translate t-shirts! He used software for books. That's the kind of shady crap you'll learn from these two. Don't do it. A lot of people have lost their accounts because of these guys. Don't be one of them.

    One of the things they taught was to find two top-selling authors in audiobook niches, switch their names and have co-authors (Jack Roberts and Julie Harrison become Jack Harrison and Julie Roberts.) If you could talk a narrator into using a pen name, you'd have one for the author and one for the narrator. They figured out author names are searchable keywords. It didn't matter what order they were in. This got people banned.

    ACX banned all their accounts and really don't like them. If you ever talk to their customer service, never mention you took their course (if you did) them might just instaban you.

    Offline unkownwriter

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Publishing Life are a SCAM!
    « Reply #16 on: August 10, 2020, 03:40:02 pm »
    Absolutely nothing dodgy about this 1st post at all.

    Nothing at all. :O

    LOL It's a typical tactic, to get someone to join up and post a glowing review of whatever is being sold. See it all the time.

    If it looks too good to be true, it is.

    If it's a "secret" to making money, nobody will be selling it to you. They will use it themselves.

    If you ever wonder about any of these schemes, just put in the name of the product, course or proponent, and the word "scam," and see what comes up.

    People would be a lot better off if they would follow David's advice. Sadly, so many get caught up in the thrill of something, in being told how easy it is to make money with no investment or effort at all.

    Offline westlake503

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    IT'S 100% NOT A SCAM! <--Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Publishing Life are a SCAM!
    « Reply #17 on: December 24, 2020, 04:24:08 pm »
    I'm 100% sure whatever I say about these guys will be ridiculed. That's what people do here. But you asked, so I answered. I took the course so I'm not pontificating. I do know know these guys personally. DM me and I'll show you my income reports.

    Firstly, I hear you and your caution with online money-making programs. However, this is LIBELOUS. They're not scams.
    If they are scams, then scores of real students who vouch for them are also scams. Who would want that sort of publicity? It's their face everywhere and the twins spend a lot of money on ads, as you know. I supposed we all got scammed and no one wants to admit it. Honestly, that's a lot of money to be scammed for. If it were true, you'd hear a lot about it.
    Also, on their videos and course sales page, they clearly have Disclaimers about their income and results. I know people don't read the fine
    print, but it's there. Caveat emptor.

    As someone who would have paid 3X's the course, I found the Mikkelsen Twins' course to be legitimate--a minority opinion here.
    It's not easy and it can't be simplified to a few lines as people in this thread have done. It's doable, but there are intricate parts
    that do require deep training. In one YT video, they even said it could take 6 months to a year to get results. Some make money far sooner, but that's pretty transparent to me. What scam artist would say that? I think the business model is interesting as it does focus on Kindle audio books exclusively.
    Think about the opportunities in ASMR, language acquisition, hypnosis, PTSD, etc.

    In their private FB group, you'll see dozens of people posting their wins. (It's a real positive bunch.) That is worth more than the course,
    IMHO. It's a group people of trying to make it all work! Honesty, since the course is a kinda expensive, there are people in there
    doing everything they can to break even quickly. They don't want to be taken. Some do it in a few months and others fall off and never finish the course.
    However, the business model does work and it's always being updated to be relevant. --All of which I don't pay attention to.

    The bi-monthly live coaching calls are hard for me since the time zone does not line up, but I just watch the replays.
    Unfortunately, that means that I don't get my question answered immediately. They do have someone doing customer service beyond
    the FB group moderator help.

    So yes, it does sound too good to be true. And yes, only people who complete the looooong course and execute the tasks make any money.
    And yes, these two have a personality that people can love or pick on. I get all of that. But as far as their course, it's NOT a scam.
    If you don't like them or the business, let it be and move on. But it's not right to talk about something you don't know anything about because you're on the outside purely speculating!

    What you'll learn about any money-making idea is that if others have replicated a trainer's results perfectly, there might be something to it.
    If you have the right mindset and you execute relentlessly to achieve the desired result, you'll make it.
    However, that's what is probably not stressed enough in ANY online program. Relentless entrepreneurs are hard to find.
    People who fail to see the logic in that will never succeed. These guys might not be your favorite and the money does sounds too good to be true, but I've personally chatted to many people in this course to find the claim that the Mikkelsen twins are a scam. In fact, I find them to be incredibly supportive. Feel free to DM for any Q.s
    --------
    Update: So what I'm getting from the replies are that:
    1. A first-time commenter here gets disrespect for being new.
    2. No one here actually took the course.
    3. Cynicism and trolling prevails.

    Well, it is what it is! However, I'm here because I was bored on Reddit. Forgive me for not having 1M comments here.
    Also, as someone who has been burnt by so-called online gurus ($1,000+), I found this course and FB group great.
    I guess some people won't believe me, but that's their prerogative. I know what transpired. But think for one second before the snide cynicism rears its ugly head again. What if 100 of the 100,000,000 courses out there are actually legit? Is everyone successful online educator a fraud? That's just dumb thinking.

    People's criteria for evaluation has to be better. Yes, lots of scams out there, but not everyone is a crook. If there were a way I could whisk you into the FB group and have you talk to several of my chums about the kind of money they were making with this program, that might add more legitimacy. No one has a reason to lie or save face. People know if they are not successful, it's because they didn't do what the map laid out. It's kind of a lot and online course completion is at an all-time low. There are many reasons for not making money with a course you believed in. I was one of them with so many other courses I failed at. I just found this one different.

    Beat up on these guys all you want. This doesn't affect me. I'm just telling it like is from someone who spent their hard-earned money on the program. You don't have to believe anyone here. The internet has minted more millionaires than any other platform, so something has to work online. And as far as people thinking their method is generic and broad, it's actually pretty specialized. The numerous tactics I've never hard of and I'm a veteran in publishing.

    But I get it, everything I say will be dismissed with an unsubstantiated pithy remark because that's what the craven do. They pontificate on things from afar having never actually experienced something for real. I can criticize a lot of things having never done it. I suggest people stay level-headed and skeptical of all online programs, but also study logic and facts. Criticize judiciously. Don't go off speculation and triple-hearsay. I'm okay with anyone ignoring that. My audiobooks will still be making me money despite what you think.

    If you think they're scams, be a man and do something about it, build a better business model, get your own legion of backers. Something tells me that if you become successful legitimately, you'll get 20+ comments about how you're a scam too. Maybe you'll have a grateful student stand up for you because they enjoyed your course. But that won't matter, right? Everything is a scam.

    « Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 08:10:20 am by westlake503 »

    Offline Some Random Guy

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    I hear you and your caution with online money-making programs. However, this is LIBELOUS. They're not scams.
    If they are scams, then scores of real students who vouch for them are also scams. Who would want that sort of publicity?
    Also, on their videos and course sales page, they clearly have Disclaimers about their income. I know people don't read the fine
    print, but it's there.

    As someone who would have paid 3X's the course, I found the Mikkelsen Twins' course to be legitimate.
    It's not easy and it can't be simplified to a few lines as people in this thread have done. It's doable, but there are intricate parts
    that do require deep training. I think the business model is interesting as it does focus on Kindle audio books exclusively.
    Think about the opportunities in ASMR, language acquisition, hypnosis, PTSD, etc.

    In their private FB group, you'll see dozens of people posting their wins. (It's a real positive bunch.) That is worth more than the course,
    IMHO. It's a group people of trying to make it all work! Honesty, since the course is a kinda expensive, there are people in there
    doing everything they can to break even quickly. Some do it in a few months and others fall off and never finish the course.
    However, the business model does work and it's always being updated to be relevant.

    The bi-monthly live coaching calls are hard for me since the time zone does not line up, but I just watch the replays.
    Unfortunately, that means that I don't get my question answered immediately. They do have someone doing customer service beyond
    the FB group moderator help.

    So yes, it does sound too good to be true. And yes, only people who complete the looooong course and execute the tasks make any money.
    And yes, these two have a personality that people can love or pick on. I get all of that. But as far as their course, it's NOT a scam.
    If you don't like them or the business, let it be and move on. But it's not right to talk about something you don't know anything about because you're on the outside purely speculating!

    What you'll learn about any money-making idea is that if others have replicated a trainer's results perfectly, there might be something to it.
    If you have the right mindset and you execute relentlessly to achieve the desired result, you'll make it.
    However, that's what is probably not stressed enough in ANY online program. Relentless entrepreneurs are hard to find.
    People who fail to see the logic in that will never succeed. These guys might not be your favorite and the money does sounds too good to be true, but I've personally chatted to many people in this course to find the claim that the Mikkelsen twins are a scam. In fact, I find them to be incredibly supportive. Feel free to DM for any Q.s

    And another first post that doesn't smell like elephant dung at all. Nothing dodgy here, especially not the bolded parts and the screams of libel. How is it that you shills aren't smart enough to post something that doesn't scream bullcrap?

    Offline ShayneRutherford

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Publishing Life are a SCAM!
    « Reply #19 on: December 24, 2020, 05:49:38 pm »
    Yep. Another first-time poster protesting that even though it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's definitely not a duck. I'm so surprised.  ::)
             

    Offline David VanDyke

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Publishing Life are a SCAM!
    « Reply #20 on: December 24, 2020, 08:58:12 pm »
    Nah, that's not libel. Not in the USA anyway. If it were, the links below would be filled with libel. Lots of libel.

    Do your own research to find out whether these things might be scams or not. Then make your own decision. Don't believe any single poster's opinion. Add up the weight of reports and decide for yourself where you want to send your hard-earned money.

    Here's a few I found on page 1 of a search:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Scams/comments/gh23d7/mikkelsen_twins_scam/

    https://www.scampulse.com/mikkelsen-twins-reviews

    https://scambusters.org/eviltwin.html

    Offline jb1111

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #21 on: December 25, 2020, 05:51:28 am »
    I'll repeat what I said earlier upthread: one is probably much better off getting advice from places like KB (and perhaps a few indie author reddits and other forums) where real indie authors hang out. Some of them -- including a couple in this thread -- are quite successful and can give a newbie better advice. Shortcuts can get you into trouble.

    Offline Patty Jansen

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #22 on: December 25, 2020, 01:02:53 pm »
    It's irrelevant. You can't do this anymore. If anything, ACX is now scamming back at these people (and us) by encouraging people to return audiobooks. I'm 100% sure that get-rich-quick books attract a particular crowd that just luuuuuurves returning books.

    Offline unkownwriter

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #23 on: December 26, 2020, 02:04:02 pm »
    Yep. Another first-time poster protesting that even though it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's definitely not a duck. I'm so surprised.  ::)

    And months later, yet. Somebody's income from the courses must be dropping, time to call in the calvery to get the money flowing.

    Offline Doglover

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    Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
    « Reply #24 on: December 27, 2020, 02:40:26 am »
    I was also curious, and finally, I thought I'd give it a try. Thinking about the worst-case I'll ask for a refund. But when I joined the course, and the FB community group I realized that this really works. All you need is to learn and show the dedication to apply what you learn. The results are not the same for everyone, I just started week 2 of the course now and tbh I learned a lot. Not sure if I'm gonna get the results like others in the group who's making 10k or more p.m. but it's worth the price and a legitimate one. They do live Q&A call biweekly, this made me satisfied that people are real and I can ask all my questions.
    You sound familiar. Did you, by any chance, give similar testimonials to all those affiliate marketing gurus, you know the ones with the secret code to make six figures a month and have pictures of yachts, mansions and Lamborghinis all over their newsletters.

    Still we need a laugh after this year and I do so enjoy these pathetic little attempts to legitimatise what is obviously a con with a great bit capital C.


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      Offline nail file

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #25 on: December 27, 2020, 04:14:51 am »
      I hear you and your caution with online money-making programs. However, this is LIBELOUS. They're not scams.
      If they are scams, then scores of real students who vouch for them are also scams.

      Hahahahah....hahahAHAHAHAHAHAhahahah..hahaha...hahah...ha

      Oh wait, you were serious.

      Okay, then know this.

      That's not how it works. Many would be too embarrassed to have dropped that amount of money on a course that could potentially damage their KDP account to say anything. Who likes to admit to the world that they got bilked out of their money?

      Offline DmGuay

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #26 on: December 27, 2020, 05:56:25 am »
      Absolutely nothing dodgy about this 1st post at all.

      My thought exactly. Nothing like a first-time poster singing the praises of a $1000 scam course! But I'm sure it's legit.  ::)
       
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      Offline Doglover

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #27 on: December 27, 2020, 06:42:17 am »
      My thought exactly. Nothing like a first-time poster singing the praises of a $1000 scam course! But I'm sure it's legit.  ::)
      The interesting thing is how they think we are going to fall for the: 'I took the scam course and it was worth every cent'?


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      Offline Patrick1980

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      It's an old routine: fast money with generic content and/or a content mill
      « Reply #28 on: December 27, 2020, 06:44:16 am »
      Versions of the Mikkelson Twins' routine have been around since Amazon first allowed POD self-published books back in the early 2000s. It also existed in the blogosphere, when the blogosphere was a thing. This is not new.

      Here's how it works:

      1. Offer generic advice about how the audience can "get rich quick" publishing---usually by repurposing generic content.
      2. Sell expensive courses that offer generic advice and "shortcuts to success".
      3. Tell students that you're making millions repurposing generic content yourself. (And they can do it, too!)

      Since the early 2000s, there have literally been thousands of operators who have done this. The Mikkelsons are youthful and hip, and they're comfortable on camera. But there is nothing new about any of it.

      Back around 2001, there were people teaching folks how to package nonfiction "reports" to sell on Amazon, by repurposing general information that was freely available on the web.

      It isn't exactly a "scam". I'm sure the twins have been smart enough to tell students that their results may vary.

      Before Amazon self-pubbing, there were "gurus" telling people how to make generic websites (content mills) for Adsense revenue.

      I've watched the Mikkelsons' videos. Everything they do screams "content mill". Content mills can occasionally make a small amount of money. There is nothing illegal about any of it. But content mills mostly make money for the people who sell courses teaching others how to make content mills themselves.

      I would bet anyone here dollars to donuts that the twins make most of their money (upwards of 90%) through their "students". That is always how it works with these things.



      I hear you and your caution with online money-making programs. However, this is LIBELOUS. They're not scams.
      If they are scams, then scores of real students who vouch for them are also scams. Who would want that sort of publicity?
      Also, on their videos and course sales page, they clearly have Disclaimers about their income. I know people don't read the fine
      print, but it's there.

      As someone who would have paid 3X's the course, I found the Mikkelsen Twins' course to be legitimate.
      It's not easy and it can't be simplified to a few lines as people in this thread have done. It's doable, but there are intricate parts
      that do require deep training. I think the business model is interesting as it does focus on Kindle audio books exclusively.
      Think about the opportunities in ASMR, language acquisition, hypnosis, PTSD, etc.

      In their private FB group, you'll see dozens of people posting their wins. (It's a real positive bunch.) That is worth more than the course,
      IMHO. It's a group people of trying to make it all work! Honesty, since the course is a kinda expensive, there are people in there
      doing everything they can to break even quickly. Some do it in a few months and others fall off and never finish the course.
      However, the business model does work and it's always being updated to be relevant.

      The bi-monthly live coaching calls are hard for me since the time zone does not line up, but I just watch the replays.
      Unfortunately, that means that I don't get my question answered immediately. They do have someone doing customer service beyond
      the FB group moderator help.

      So yes, it does sound too good to be true. And yes, only people who complete the looooong course and execute the tasks make any money.
      And yes, these two have a personality that people can love or pick on. I get all of that. But as far as their course, it's NOT a scam.
      If you don't like them or the business, let it be and move on. But it's not right to talk about something you don't know anything about because you're on the outside purely speculating!

      What you'll learn about any money-making idea is that if others have replicated a trainer's results perfectly, there might be something to it.
      If you have the right mindset and you execute relentlessly to achieve the desired result, you'll make it.
      However, that's what is probably not stressed enough in ANY online program. Relentless entrepreneurs are hard to find.
      People who fail to see the logic in that will never succeed. These guys might not be your favorite and the money does sounds too good to be true, but I've personally chatted to many people in this course to find the claim that the Mikkelsen twins are a scam. In fact, I find them to be incredibly supportive. Feel free to DM for any Q.s

      Offline DmGuay

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      I hear you and your caution with online money-making programs. However, this is LIBELOUS. They're not scams.
      If they are scams, then scores of real students who vouch for them are also scams. Who would want that sort of publicity?
      Also, on their videos and course sales page, they clearly have Disclaimers about their income. I know people don't read the fine
      print, but it's there.

      As someone who would have paid 3X's the course, I found the Mikkelsen Twins' course to be legitimate.
      It's not easy and it can't be simplified to a few lines as people in this thread have done. It's doable, but there are intricate parts
      that do require deep training. I think the business model is interesting as it does focus on Kindle audio books exclusively.
      Think about the opportunities in ASMR, language acquisition, hypnosis, PTSD, etc.

      In their private FB group, you'll see dozens of people posting their wins. (It's a real positive bunch.) That is worth more than the course,
      IMHO. It's a group people of trying to make it all work! Honesty, since the course is a kinda expensive, there are people in there
      doing everything they can to break even quickly. Some do it in a few months and others fall off and never finish the course.
      However, the business model does work and it's always being updated to be relevant.

      The bi-monthly live coaching calls are hard for me since the time zone does not line up, but I just watch the replays.
      Unfortunately, that means that I don't get my question answered immediately. They do have someone doing customer service beyond
      the FB group moderator help.

      So yes, it does sound too good to be true. And yes, only people who complete the looooong course and execute the tasks make any money.
      And yes, these two have a personality that people can love or pick on. I get all of that. But as far as their course, it's NOT a scam.
      If you don't like them or the business, let it be and move on. But it's not right to talk about something you don't know anything about because you're on the outside purely speculating!

      What you'll learn about any money-making idea is that if others have replicated a trainer's results perfectly, there might be something to it.
      If you have the right mindset and you execute relentlessly to achieve the desired result, you'll make it.
      However, that's what is probably not stressed enough in ANY online program. Relentless entrepreneurs are hard to find.
      People who fail to see the logic in that will never succeed. These guys might not be your favorite and the money does sounds too good to be true, but I've personally chatted to many people in this course to find the claim that the Mikkelsen twins are a scam. In fact, I find them to be incredibly supportive. Feel free to DM for any Q.s

      Yep. I'm sure the handful of first time ever posts here defending a $1000 course are totally legit!!!!
      Come on, people.
       
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      Offline Bite the Dusty

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #30 on: December 27, 2020, 12:29:20 pm »

      Offline unkownwriter

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #31 on: December 28, 2020, 12:54:15 pm »
      This sort of thing has been around forever. Before the Internet, before television, even. Ads in the backs of magazines promising tons of money stuffing envelopes. Ads saying you could make good money doing simple crafts. Back in the early 90s or so, it was drop shipping wonderful items you sold out of a catalog. Make a fortune from that one, for sure. Later on it was the buy and sell real estate deal. These days it's publishing books and watching the millions of passive income roll in. You can hire a ghostwriter for $5 to give you all the short pamphlets you need! The only trick to it is that the people selling the secret are the only ones who make money from it, because it's a con. Send me some money, I'll let you in on the secret, multiply by the thousands.

      Offline SND

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #32 on: December 30, 2020, 05:06:04 am »
      There's a YouTube channel called Coffeezilla and the central premise of his channel is debunking and calling out the proliferation of scam artists, gurus and MLMers out there. Mikkelson Twins are ripe for a dedicated episode.

      Offline NikOK

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #33 on: December 30, 2020, 05:27:39 am »
      I mean, yeah, anytime someone is going to sell you a secret, I feel like it's a good idea to steer clear.  This is the business model of someone who doesn't sell a product.  Like, Microsoft doesn't offer courses on how to make computers, they just sell you the computers.  If their advice worked so well, then they'd probably just be using it.

      Offline Trioxin 245

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #34 on: December 30, 2020, 07:24:37 am »
      Years ago I watched a late nigh infomercial selling some course which I cannot remember. So I rang them and asked, does this course really work?
      She assured me it did. There were thousands who have made a career and good money from it.

      I then asked why is she answering phones for ten bucks an hour?

      She hung up.

      :)

      Offline NikOK

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #35 on: December 30, 2020, 08:23:08 am »
      Years ago I watched a late nigh infomercial selling some course which I cannot remember. So I rang them and asked, does this course really work?
      She assured me it did. There were thousands who have made a career and good money from it.

      I then asked why is she answering phones for ten bucks an hour?

      She hung up.

      :)

      Bwhaha...yep!

      Offline westlake503

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      And another first post that doesn't smell like elephant dung at all. Nothing dodgy here, especially not the bolded parts and the screams of libel. How is it that you shills aren't smart enough to post something that doesn't scream bullcrap?

      Brilliant ad hominem. That's what the illogical do.  You should write cards. :)

      Offline westlake503

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #37 on: January 05, 2021, 11:38:33 am »
      And months later, yet. Somebody's income from the courses must be dropping, time to call in the calvery to get the money flowing.

      *cavalry

      New to kboards. Is that really so bad? Didn't know that disqualified me. I must be a hack!
      Everyone has their two cents. A question was asked and I had bought the course to answer it. Assuming I'm not the course creator, doesn't that give me some sort of legitimacy?

      Who else here has done that? And if they haven't, are their common words a pontification? Treat it like a court case. Where's the proof to back their claim?
      I got income reports from deploying the program. How about you? I think these guys are nice. I could be dead-wrong, but I wasn't born yesterday.


      Offline westlake503

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #38 on: January 05, 2021, 12:09:46 pm »
      Another fellow KBoarder posted a couple links to their videos a few months back. They reminded me of Wayne's World without the air guitar.

      There are probably tons of people trying to make money telling you how to make a fast buck on the Zon.

      Some of them may be legit, I wouldn't really know personally as don't follow any of them. I'd rather trust what I read here and a couple other places where the actual authors hang out. Just my two cents on it.

      Okay, that was kinda funny about the Wayne's World thing. I see that. However, the more interesting thing you said was trusting what you read here! This is where I got scammed into buying an eBook on publishing. It was utter rubbish.

      Offline c'est la vie

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #39 on: January 05, 2021, 01:00:55 pm »
      westlake503, can you really blame the skeptical? You have no posting history aside from an overlong defense of obvious scammers and ridiculous accusations of libel. Do you really expect us to believe this is how a fellow author would introduce themselves to a segment of their own community?

      Where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

      I suppose it's possible you were born yesterday, but my guess is it's you who think we were.

      Offline Some Random Guy

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      Brilliant ad hominem. That's what the illogical do.  You should write cards. :)
      Son, when I ad hominem, it's about as logical as it gets. And I make more money writing books, something your sort should try. Oh - but I forget, those who can do, those who can't, offer shady classes on how to do something they can't. Yep, elephant dung all right. And that, my boy, is what the smart folks call logic.

      Offline NikOK

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #41 on: January 05, 2021, 02:46:54 pm »
      *cavalry

      New to kboards. Is that really so bad? Didn't know that disqualified me. I must be a hack!
      Everyone has their two cents. A question was asked and I had bought the course to answer it. Assuming I'm not the course creator, doesn't that give me some sort of legitimacy?

      Who else here has done that? And if they haven't, are their common words a pontification? Treat it like a court case. Where's the proof to back their claim?
      I got income reports from deploying the program. How about you? I think these guys are nice. I could be dead-wrong, but I wasn't born yesterday.

      If you are legitimate, then you really shouldn't take these things personally.  Anybody would be glad that you took the course, got good info, and it helped your writing career.  People posting skepticism of the course doesn't really affect you, the person who has benefited from them.  You still maintain your benefit, and if anything you have an advantage over anyone who is skeptical.

      If you are not legitimate, then by all means, continue to go out of your way to make this into an argument.

      Offline unkownwriter

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #42 on: January 06, 2021, 03:19:55 pm »
      Quote
      Assuming I'm not the course creator, doesn't that give me some sort of legitimacy?

      Not really. One post wonders, who never show up to contribute to the forum outside of doing the "it's totally legit I swear!" thing have no legitimacy. None. Like it or not, that's how it works. And not just here.

      And thanks for the proofreading. I normally don't leave such egregious errors, but you got lucky that day.

      Offline ShayneRutherford

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #43 on: January 06, 2021, 07:47:30 pm »

      New to kboards. Is that really so bad? Didn't know that disqualified me. I must be a hack!
      Everyone has their two cents. A question was asked and I had bought the course to answer it.

      Assuming I'm not the course creator, doesn't that give me some sort of legitimacy?

      Who else here has done that? And if they haven't, are their common words a pontification? Treat it like a court case. Where's the proof to back their claim?
      I got income reports from deploying the program. How about you? I think these guys are nice. I could be dead-wrong, but I wasn't born yesterday.

      There's nothing bad about being new to KBoards. Extolling the virtues of a company known to use dubious tactics? That's the bad part.

      Even if you're not the course creator, who's to say you're not gaining something from trying to get people to sign up for it? We don't know you. You're anonymous. And you offered no proof of your claim. If you've got income reports, let's see them. I don't think anyone here is opposed to learning how to make money, as long as it's legit. But we've seen plenty of people drop in here and try to scam us, so we tend to be suspicious of brand new posters who swear that Suspicious Company #74 isn't a scam, but isn't willing to offer any proof.

      On the other hand, the fact that the course focuses on Amazon audiobooks exclusively is a bit of a red flag. As is the fact that all of their books seem to be gone from the Amazon store entirely. If they were on the up and up, shouldn't they have books for sale on the platform their program uses exclusively? You would think that, for a company with such awesome info to teach, they should have their books up for sale on Amazon, and those books would be selling like hotcakes? So why aren't they?
               

      Offline jb1111

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #44 on: January 06, 2021, 09:48:12 pm »
      Okay, that was kinda funny about the Wayne's World thing. I see that. However, the more interesting thing you said was trusting what you read here! This is where I got scammed into buying an eBook on publishing. It was utter rubbish.

      Point taken. It's always caveat emptor.

      I was referring more to the breadth of advice one can get here on KB over a period of time. I've only been here maybe two to three years... Seen a lot of advice given by authors who seem to have books that sell.

      Offline Doglover

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #45 on: January 06, 2021, 11:10:02 pm »
      This is where I got scammed into buying an eBook on publishing. It was utter rubbish.
      Did that ebook cost you $1000? And why didn't you send it back for a refund?


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      Offline Doglover

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #46 on: January 06, 2021, 11:13:51 pm »
      When someone is trying to sell a course to authors about marketing, the first question to ask is: Is this person an author? The second question is to look them up on Amazon and elsewhere to see how well their books are doing and what they are writing, besides how to sell courses and how to market. If that evidence is missing, the course is likely crap.


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      Offline Trioxin 245

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #47 on: January 07, 2021, 12:27:54 am »
      Ive always thought that by the time someone is ready to share their brilliant secret ( in the form of a course/book) the time for it to be effective has already passed.

      Here is another way to look at it. The courses that speak about their students making 25k a month, why are they willing to sell it to you for just a few hundred bucks? Why are they not hiring a team, paying them 20 an hour even 30, to do the work and make so much more for themselves?

      But you can learn from them, watch how they promote, get your heart racing and your mind dreaming. They are very good at that and you can use some of the skills for your own marketing.





      Offline Rimmo

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #48 on: January 07, 2021, 01:45:52 am »
      It's subtle - the Mikkelsen Twins are not lying about anything, because they don't need to lie.

      Their goal is to make passive income from the internet. That's it. That's their only goal. They're not actually 'writers' at all, they just see Amazon / KDP as a useful route to a steady passive income. They're probably actually fairly good at achieving that.

      Their course, I assume, teaches exactly that too - What is the fastest way to make money out of the Amazon system. The thing is, that's a very different goal to why most of us come to kboards. It may even be directly opposed to it, if they encourage flooding the market with too much crap.

      Some of their ideas I found on marketing were interesting, but once I realized their approach to writing was basically to be as shallow as possible, it really seemed not worth my time.

      Ive always thought that by the time someone is ready to share their brilliant secret ( in the form of a course/book) the time for it to be effective has already passed.
      Yeah that's a really good point. It's always too late, by the time its being advertised to the whole world.
      « Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 01:47:37 am by Rimmo »
      The Infinite Void science fiction series:


      https://rimmblog.wordpress.com/

      Offline unkownwriter

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      Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
      « Reply #49 on: January 07, 2021, 06:28:30 am »
      Quote
      Amazon / KDP as a useful route to a steady passive income

      Ask any real writer, putting out good books and making money, how true that "passive income" crap is. They'll tell you it's a big fat lie. Look at posts here or anywhere about marketing, how much harder it is, how much more it costs, how much effort you have to put into keeping up with what works and what doesn't. And how you have to keep publishing, keep working the back list. For anyone other than the SEO folks, who see KDP as a cash cow and have no real interest in writing.

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        Offline westlake503

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        Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
        « Reply #50 on: January 07, 2021, 07:56:03 am »
        You sound familiar. Did you, by any chance, give similar testimonials to all those affiliate marketing gurus, you know the ones with the secret code to make six figures a month and have pictures of yachts, mansions and Lamborghinis all over their newsletters.

        Still we need a laugh after this year and I do so enjoy these pathetic little attempts to legitimatise what is obviously a con with a great bit capital C.

        Are you talking about that IM Rhys guy? Or that other guy that reviews all these courses and then always recommends his small business leads system? Yeah, I've seen that too. I've only given one testimonial and I don't think that person even owns a car! So no, I'm not in that space. However, I understand where you're coming from. 99.9% of people scam. Let me know when you find the Secret Code!

        Offline westlake503

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        Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
        « Reply #51 on: January 07, 2021, 07:59:39 am »
        I'll repeat what I said earlier upthread: one is probably much better off getting advice from places like KB (and perhaps a few indie author reddits and other forums) where real indie authors hang out. Some of them -- including a couple in this thread -- are quite successful and can give a newbie better advice. Shortcuts can get you into trouble.

        I see. So any newbie is illegitimate. Great culture! And believe non-experts here more than others giving free tutorials over YouTube that try to sell a course that may or may not work. Got it! I guess I'm that ONE person on the planet who took a paid course and made more than my money back. Life is so great.

        Offline westlake503

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        Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Publishing Life are a SCAM!
        « Reply #52 on: January 07, 2021, 08:13:53 am »
        These two jokers have lost their Amazon accounts - KDP, Merch, and ACX. Before handing them your money, ask yourself why. Black hat tactics. Amazon always finds out. They've lost the support of all the reputable people in the business. They started out with a bang. I liked them. I even bought their course, something I'm not proud of now. Ashamed is a better word.

        They have, or had, a video about getting review swaps. Not saying they were bad, saying you had to do them. Christian lost his KDP account for using software to translate books to Spanish. I pay a translater just to translate t-shirts! He used software for books. That's the kind of shady crap you'll learn from these two. Don't do it. A lot of people have lost their accounts because of these guys. Don't be one of them.

        One of the things they taught was to find two top-selling authors in audiobook niches, switch their names and have co-authors (Jack Roberts and Julie Harrison become Jack Harrison and Julie Roberts.) If you could talk a narrator into using a pen name, you'd have one for the author and one for the narrator. They figured out author names are searchable keywords. It didn't matter what order they were in. This got people banned.

        ACX banned all their accounts and really don't like them. If you ever talk to their customer service, never mention you took their course (if you did) them might just instaban you.

        Actually, that's one of the first things they admit in the course. How to get banned and how to avoid it. They admitted to that and worse. They were black hat, but they had to do it right to stay in business. Isn't that valuable advice? How to not get your account closed? Perception is reality. I do not think these guys are publishing gods, but exercise reason here. These are the facts.

        Offline westlake503

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        Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Publishing Life are a SCAM!
        « Reply #53 on: January 07, 2021, 08:32:29 am »
        Nah, that's not libel. Not in the USA anyway. If it were, the links below would be filled with libel. Lots of libel.

        Do your own research to find out whether these things might be scams or not. Then make your own decision. Don't believe any single poster's opinion. Add up the weight of reports and decide for yourself where you want to send your hard-earned money.

        Here's a few I found on page 1 of a search:

        https://www.reddit.com/r/Scams/comments/gh23d7/mikkelsen_twins_scam/

        https://www.scampulse.com/mikkelsen-twins-reviews

        https://scambusters.org/eviltwin.html

        Clearly you don't understand law. It IS libelous if you can prove it. I think they can it if falls outside of the first amendment and if it causes damages [sales, character, etc]. Pretty basic, really. But who cares, I really don't! I'm just not corrected here by your speculation on American jurisprudence. https://www.freeadvice.com/legal/can-i-sue-someone-who-says-or-writes-something-defamatory-about-me/. Interesting articles though. They fall into the first amendment clause. However, the twins could follow up as well as the FTC. If there is a legitimate complaint the consumer protection agency verifies, 100% of their stuff would have to come down. They're still up. In the end, neither party wants to follow through. It's a headache for both sides. It's sad how people will get scammed, but entrepreneurs have rights too. If you ever sold a book, you have rights too.

        Offline Doglover

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          • Margaret Brazear Author
        Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
        « Reply #54 on: January 07, 2021, 09:17:09 am »
        I see. So any newbie is illegitimate. Great culture! And believe non-experts here more than others giving free tutorials over YouTube that try to sell a course that may or may not work. Got it! I guess I'm that ONE person on the planet who took a paid course and made more than my money back. Life is so great.
        Any newbie who joins only to legitimise a service that is dubious at best, is suspicious. Surely you can see that. Newbies who come to discuss their writing, publishing, or simple discuss writing with other writers, do not come under suspicion. Now if someone with say, 1000 posts, came along and declared that these scammers are legit, we might listen.


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        Offline Doglover

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          • Margaret Brazear Author
        Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
        « Reply #55 on: January 07, 2021, 09:19:04 am »
        Actually, that's one of the first things they admit in the course. How to get banned and how to avoid it. They admitted to that and worse. They were black hat, but they had to do it right to stay in business. Isn't that valuable advice? How to not get your account closed? Perception is reality. I do not think these guys are publishing gods, but exercise reason here. These are the facts.
        Genuine writers and publishers don't need to be told how not to get banned; we already know. Are you saying it's a good investment to pay nearly $1000 for a course on common sense? Do I get a degree in the bleeding obvious?


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        Offline Doglover

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        Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
        « Reply #56 on: January 07, 2021, 09:21:58 am »
        Clearly you don't understand law. It IS libelous if you can prove it. I think they can it if falls outside of the first amendment and if it causes damages [sales, character, etc]. Pretty basic, really. But who cares, I really don't! I'm just not corrected here by your speculation on American jurisprudence. https://www.freeadvice.com/legal/can-i-sue-someone-who-says-or-writes-something-defamatory-about-me/. Interesting articles though. They fall into the first amendment clause. However, the twins could follow up as well as the FTC. If there is a legitimate complaint the consumer protection agency verifies, 100% of their stuff would have to come down. They're still up. In the end, neither party wants to follow through. It's a headache for both sides. It's sad how people will get scammed, but entrepreneurs have rights too. If you ever sold a book, you have rights too.
        I'm English - we don't have any amendments, first, second or otherwise. The law here is it is only libellous if it isn't true. Added to that, I don't think the law has caught up with the internet; libel needs to be written on paper. I could be wrong. It does happen. 


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        Offline lafnian1990

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        Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Publishing Life are a SCAM!
        « Reply #57 on: January 13, 2021, 03:51:03 am »
        Clearly you don't understand law. It IS libelous if you can prove it. I think they can it if falls outside of the first amendment and if it causes damages [sales, character, etc]. Pretty basic, really. But who cares, I really don't! I'm just not corrected here by your speculation on American jurisprudence. https://www.freeadvice.com/legal/can-i-sue-someone-who-says-or-writes-something-defamatory-about-me/. Interesting articles though. They fall into the first amendment clause. However, the twins could follow up as well as the FTC. If there is a legitimate complaint the consumer protection agency verifies, 100% of their stuff would have to come down. They're still up. In the end, neither party wants to follow through. It's a headache for both sides. It's sad how people will get scammed, but entrepreneurs have rights too. If you ever sold a book, you have rights too.
        You have forgotten about business ethics which secretly influences legal aspects. It seems to me that a decent person should not make explicit accents on the legal side.

        Offline jb1111

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        Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
        « Reply #58 on: January 13, 2021, 04:20:22 pm »
        I see. So any newbie is illegitimate. Great culture! And believe non-experts here more than others giving free tutorials over YouTube that try to sell a course that may or may not work. Got it! I guess I'm that ONE person on the planet who took a paid course and made more than my money back. Life is so great.

        No, what I said was caveat emptor, especially for newbies.

        Newbies aren't illegitimate. They're newbies. They don't have the experience of people who have been in the game for years, some of whom have -- through trial and error -- become successful, some even wildly successful. Some of them here, from what I can ascertain, are indeed experts. An expert is someone who is successful at a trade or craft, and can live off of it. Some of the posters here match that definition.

        You claim to have made more than your investment back by taking a YT course. Good on ya. I won't knock your right to state that here, and tell others that it worked for you, and I haven't knocked you for it.

        There are KB'ers who swear by some marketing seminars, too. They say it works for them.

        I just think any newbie needs to be careful with whatever advice they receive.

        As for the Mikkelsen twins, yeah, they reminded me of Wayne's World without the Van Halen playing in the background. But I will give props to the one guy admitting he screwed up and lost his account permanently. I'll grant him that much. I saw that video. He was at least straightforward about what he did.

        Offline unkownwriter

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        Re: Mikkelsen Twins / Audiobook Income Academy is it legitimate?
        « Reply #59 on: January 15, 2021, 05:22:11 am »
        Quote
        They were black hat, but they had to do it right to stay in business. Isn't that valuable advice? How to not get your account closed?

        They had to find a way to get around rules, you mean? To cheat a system, to break rules, not because they're harmful, but because the rule breaker wants an easier, quicker, better way to steal money?

        Amazon already gives us valuable advice to avoid getting our accounts terminated. No workarounds are needed. No thousand dollar courses to learn how to game the system. No easy, sneaky way to get ahead of anyone else. There are thousands of people who follow the rules and make very good money. Some make winning lottery ticket money. They don't have to worry about getting caught at something they shouldn't be doing. They don't have to find a way to break any rules.

        Anyone who thinks finding ways around the rules aren't in this for the writing, they're looking for easy money, and they don't care that every time they get caught, Amazon amps up the rules and makes it harder and harder for honest people to find their dream as a writer. We've seen it with KU, we've seen it with simple things like tags, or being able to add images to our sales page, or every other little thing that made it better for those of us willing to follow the terms of the contract we signed.

        But you keep on, dig that hole deeper, keep finding excuses for the cheaters. I for one don't care about you, or anyone like you. When you get caught, don't come looking for sympathy here, because you won't get it. Except maybe from that other person who signs up just to support something that's wrong. That will be your solace.

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