Author Topic: Publishers with books in KU and wide?  (Read 2421 times)  

Offline Triceratops

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Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2020, 09:27:48 am »
Having more books that your average readers are actually looking for in the mix may attract new subscribers, perhaps increasing the customer base for KU indies.

There are lots of good books in KU. There are just.. many more that are not at all appealing to the average reader. I eventually subscribed for publishing research purposes. But when I first encountered it and was considering it just as a reader, I looked through some of the books in there and thought.. even if it was free, no thanks.

It's like Netflix. I don't subscribe for the filler content. I subscribe for the two or three shows that I really enjoy. But once I'v watched the good stuff.. well, I already paid for it, it's there, so on occasion I might check out a random film or the like. On occasion, it turns out to be pretty good - though not something that would have compelled me to subscribe.

Fair point. On rebuttal I can think of some reasons why Big 5 in KU is not good for us indies.

One, visibility. Let's say for example you write Westerns. If Louis L'Amour's Sackett series is in KU, there's 19 books in that series alone. Or if you write Action / Crime, and Don Pendleton's The Executioner (Mack Bolan's War Against the Mafia) is in KU; Don wrote 37 original books in that series, and overall there are more than 450. So now, instead of competing with an indie author like yourself for KU visibility, you're up against many so-called evergreen series, older intellectual properties of which the authors may now be dead, but that still have strong readership. Genre series like the Sacketts and The Executioner can probably make more page-read money in KU, than sales money out. If, or when, Big 5 decide to enroll their older IPs into KU it will drive the visibility of indie books down. It'll be like an avalanche and a lot of authors will get buried.

Two, Big 5 and Disney can advertise the hell out of KU $0.99 books. Their ad spend budgets are deeper. So they start playing the ad game for KU world and now ad prices go up.

Three, the corporations that own the IPs may not always necessarily be wanting read-through on a book series; maybe, like in the case of Artemis Fowl, they want to drive eyeballs to a movie or TV show or other tie-in. Essentially they are using KU like a roadside ad billboard. They are looking to *divert* eyeballs from books to some other property, a movie, a TV series, a video game. So then maybe the KU reader goes off and says hey, I think I'll take a break from reading books and start watching the Disney channel or binge a TV series or play GTA. That's good for the corporation but not good for you, the indie KU author. You want KU customers reading books.

I do grant that you may right about how Big 5 could attract a different demographic of KU subscriber. But overall I think it's not good for indies.

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    Offline markpauloleksiw

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #26 on: July 05, 2020, 03:30:23 pm »
    My fear is the same. The big 5 could one day decide to drive the independents out once and for all. Don't think they won't try to do that either.

    My other concern is this. Recently the fund rose to $30+ million. Yet, the payout rate per page decreased. So the gap is growing...where does that leave everyone...payouts will never go above 0.05 cents a page....we are being slowly weaned down to 0.04 cents.

    Mark

    Offline baldricko

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #27 on: July 05, 2020, 04:26:42 pm »
    Amazon has NEVER been about transparency when it comes to KU.  I mean, heck, they won't even tell us how many borrows we get or let us track them in AMS (a service we freaking pay for!).

    If we could give stars for a post I would give you five for this.You are bang on!

    Offline ShayneRutherford

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #28 on: July 05, 2020, 06:01:51 pm »
    My fear is the same. The big 5 could one day decide to drive the independents out once and for all. Don't think they won't try to do that either.

    My other concern is this. Recently the fund rose to $30+ million. Yet, the payout rate per page decreased. So the gap is growing...where does that leave everyone...payouts will never go above 0.05 cents a page....we are being slowly weaned down to 0.04 cents.

    Mark
    The payout decreased because, when the plague hit and all the lockdowns happened, a lot of authors jumped back into Select, which meant more people splitting the pot. And Amazon offered free three-month trials, which Im sure tons of people enrolled in. That means more people reading, which drives the per-page payout down.
             

    Offline markpauloleksiw

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #29 on: July 06, 2020, 08:24:07 am »
    No matter what the reasons...what authors get paid per page is dropping. Plus no one really knows how the fund is computed...we are just told what the number is. (Not saying traditional publishing deals are any better for transparency).

    Amazon has slowly taken away things (CreateSpace, Made Goodreads less author friendly, remove author rankings, slowed updates, made AMS sales tracking almost useless).

    Mark

    Offline IndieEuroAuthor

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #30 on: July 06, 2020, 01:47:59 pm »
    No matter what the reasons...what authors get paid per page is dropping. Plus no one really knows how the fund is computed...we are just told what the number is. (Not saying traditional publishing deals are any better for transparency).

    Amazon has slowly taken away things (CreateSpace, Made Goodreads less author friendly, remove author rankings, slowed updates, made AMS sales tracking almost useless).

    Mark

    I know Smashwords is far from perfect, but it's a fact that many of Mark Coker's predictions are coming true. He predicted all these things. Even his tongue-in-cheek April Fools joke of Kindle Bucks program where authors pay readers to read their books came true LOL (AMS). What I find really disturbing about AMS is the fact that Amazon withholds absolutely key data like number of borrows from authors aka advertisers. Google and Facebook advertisers will not put up with these sort of BS. Yet authors seem to be perfectly fine with it.

    Offline ShayneRutherford

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #31 on: July 06, 2020, 10:10:23 pm »
    No matter what the reasons...what authors get paid per page is dropping.

    Because authors have made it clear to Amazon that they'll stay in at the current, crappy rate. Amazon is in this to make money, and as long as people are willing to stay in at $0.004, Amazon has no reason to bump it up to $0.005.
             

    Offline IndieEuroAuthor

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #32 on: July 06, 2020, 10:55:38 pm »
    Because authors have made it clear to Amazon that they'll stay in at the current, crappy rate. Amazon is in this to make money, and as long as people are willing to stay in at $0.004, Amazon has no reason to bump it up to $0.005.

    Amazon is just exploiting the tragedy of the commons phenomenon. In any creative market, competition is absolutely fierce and overwhelming majority can't make it. In such a scenario you get a vast army of somewhat talented individuals willing to bottom feed. Just check out Fiverr to see what I am talking about. Graphic artists are designing flyers and translators translating full pages for $5. Amazon knows that LOTS of writers will be more than happy to take the crappy page read rate no matter how insane the situation becomes. For a while now, Amazon is just testing how much further they can push the line before writers start bailing out en masse.

    Offline ShayneRutherford

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #33 on: July 06, 2020, 11:21:49 pm »
    Amazon is just exploiting the tragedy of the commons phenomenon. In any creative market, competition is absolutely fierce and overwhelming majority can't make it. In such a scenario you get a vast army of somewhat talented individuals willing to bottom feed. Just check out Fiverr to see what I am talking about. Graphic artists are designing flyers and translators translating full pages for $5. Amazon knows that LOTS of writers will be more than happy to take the crappy page read rate no matter how insane the situation becomes. For a while now, Amazon is just testing how much further they can push the line before writers start bailing out en masse.

    Which was pretty much my point. Amazon has no reason to pay more, so they don't. If they can pay less, they will. Isn't that the way capitalism works?
             

    Offline markpauloleksiw

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #34 on: July 07, 2020, 06:56:54 am »
    Amazon is behaving like a monopoly in many ways and in cahoots with the Big 5 as an Oligopoly. Depends on your interpretation of capitalism, I suppose.

    I actually think Amazon's ebook empire is not doing was as well as they had hoped...they are now trying to scrape earnings from the AMS wing.  Ebooks and audiobooks have not grown the way Amazon hoped and new competitors are entering the domain who also have massive pockets...(Apple!).

    A whole industry has been created to feed off "new" authors.

    Big publishing is not stupid. Their threat is not Amazon, it is independent publishers/authors. How to strangle them? Jump in the Kindle Unlimit and start unleashing your back catalogue. What does that do? It snuffs out the vast majority of new authors from ever hoping to get a foot hold.

    Mark





    Offline IndieEuroAuthor

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #35 on: July 07, 2020, 09:09:03 am »
    Ebooks and audiobooks have not grown the way Amazon hoped and new competitors are entering the domain who also have massive pockets...(Apple!).

    Don't underestimate Kobo. It is backed by Rakuten Corporation, a massive Japanese conglomerate with very, very deep pockets. In many European countries, Kindle is non-existent while Kobo reigns supreme. Amazon Kindle has the best foothold in Germany but even there Kobo is massive due to Tolino alliance. Amazon Kindle's dominance and the future looks very different if you look at things from the old continent's POV.

    Offline markpauloleksiw

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #36 on: July 07, 2020, 09:49:54 am »
    For a couple of years, I bought into Kindle exclusivity.  Today, was my first day going wide (for my first two novels). I came to the realization that I could not reasonably get to the next level with Amazon's pay to play structure they have created.

    I did one book when I originally was in Kobo...now with 3, I feel much more comfortable going wide. Markets outside the U.S are dramatically different.

    Mark

    Offline ShayneRutherford

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #37 on: July 07, 2020, 11:37:19 am »
    Amazon is behaving like a monopoly in many ways and in cahoots with the Big 5 as an Oligopoly. Depends on your interpretation of capitalism, I suppose.

    I actually think Amazon's ebook empire is not doing was as well as they had hoped...they are now trying to scrape earnings from the AMS wing.  Ebooks and audiobooks have not grown the way Amazon hoped and new competitors are entering the domain who also have massive pockets...(Apple!).

    So, which is it? Either Amazon is a monopoly driving everyone else out of business, or they're not doing as well as they'd hoped and other competitors are giving them a run for their money.


    Big publishing is not stupid. Their threat is not Amazon, it is independent publishers/authors. How to strangle them? Jump in the Kindle Unlimit and start unleashing your back catalogue. What does that do? It snuffs out the vast majority of new authors from ever hoping to get a foot hold.

    Independent authors are not a threat to big publishing. There are plenty of readers who won't touch indie books with a ten-foot pole. They'd rather pay more money to get a book they know for sure will meet a certain standard. They're not the indie audience and never will be.
             

    Offline IndieEuroAuthor

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #38 on: July 07, 2020, 01:16:45 pm »
    Independent authors are not a threat to big publishing. There are plenty of readers who won't touch indie books with a ten-foot pole. They'd rather pay more money to get a book they know for sure will meet a certain standard. They're not the indie audience and never will be.

    That's not exactly true. You are talking about readers who only buy well known best sellers. Yeah, they won't read indie books for sure. However, there is another huge group of readers. These readers want Quality. By quality I do mean quality with a capital Q. 99% of the time, these readers buy trad pubbed books. The number of indies who publish professional quality books were steadily rising and these readers would have bought them unknowingly! The Wool and Martian were as good as any trad pubbed books out there. I am using the past tense "Were" cause the active gaming of Amazon algo and the ever increasing sludge pile is now making it almost impossible to find excellent indie books on Amazon. It has always been a problem but now it's out of control.

    Also a significant percentage of profits of Big 5 came from...I don't know how to put it...less than stellar books. I mean, surely Mills & Boon didn't became a household name based on sheer quality.  :P Big 5 was rapidly losing formulaic Genre consumers and it badly, badly hurt their bottom line. Their excellent books brought them prestige....while their Genre Romance imprints paid the bills. 5-6 years ago, Big 5 was staring at an existential crisis.

    But now the tide is clearly turning again in the favour of Big 5. The romance charts of Amazon makes Mills & Boon look like works of sheer literary genius. There are a lot of excellent indie Romance books on Amazon, they are just buried. Readers are associating trad pubs with quality once again. Kobo has already seen the writing on the wall and has buried indie books. They allow indie books visibility in their store based on strict manual review. So yeah indie authors are not a huge threat to Big 5 anymore....but still they can suck the life blood out of indies further by uploading their backlist on Kindle Unlimited.

    Online Amanda M. Lee

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #39 on: July 07, 2020, 01:43:45 pm »
    Amazon is behaving like a monopoly in many ways and in cahoots with the Big 5 as an Oligopoly. Depends on your interpretation of capitalism, I suppose.

    I actually think Amazon's ebook empire is not doing was as well as they had hoped...they are now trying to scrape earnings from the AMS wing.  Ebooks and audiobooks have not grown the way Amazon hoped and new competitors are entering the domain who also have massive pockets...(Apple!).

    A whole industry has been created to feed off "new" authors.

    Big publishing is not stupid. Their threat is not Amazon, it is independent publishers/authors. How to strangle them? Jump in the Kindle Unlimit and start unleashing your back catalogue. What does that do? It snuffs out the vast majority of new authors from ever hoping to get a foot hold.

    Mark
    Yeah, I would recommend reading up on some of these topics.

    Amanda M. Lee

    Offline ShayneRutherford

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #40 on: July 07, 2020, 02:08:28 pm »
    That's not exactly true. You are talking about readers who only buy well known best sellers.

    No, I'm not. I'm talking about readers like me, who only ever seem to finish trad books. I still buy the indie books - hope springs eternal, I guess - but I never manage to finish them. And I don't doubt for a minute that there are plenty more readers like me, who will search out a trad book over an indie, because we've been burned by crappy indie books too many times.



    Also a significant percentage of profits of Big 5 came from...I don't know how to put it...less than stellar books. I mean, surely Mills & Boon didn't became a household name based on sheer quality.  :P Big 5 was rapidly losing formulaic Genre consumers and it badly, badly hurt their bottom line. Their excellent books brought them prestige....while their Genre Romance imprints paid the bills. 5-6 years ago, Big 5 was staring at an existential crisis.

    Mills & Boone, and Harlequin, etc. became a household name based on giving consumers the books they wanted. Romance readers are voracious, and indie books are cheap, so it's no surprise that indie romances would really appeal to romance readers if they're decent quality. Plus, KU would give them even more bang for their buck (no pun intended).

    But that wasn't the quality that I was referring to. When I buy a trad book, I know that it had to go through the publishing acquisition team at the very least, and probably an agent, too. It also went through a professional editor - not just someone who hung up a shingle and called themselves that - at least once and probably twice, plus a proofreader. That means the agent and the publisher had to think it was worth publishing, and then a bunch of other people helped to make it better. People might have differing views about what constitutes a good story, but with trad books, at least I know they went through the publishing process and have been brought to an acceptable level of grammar and spelling.



    But now the tide is clearly turning again in the favour of Big 5. The romance charts of Amazon makes Mills & Boon look like works of sheer literary genius. There are a lot of excellent indie Romance books on Amazon, they are just buried. Readers are associating trad pubs with quality once again. Kobo has already seen the writing on the wall and has buried indie books. They allow indie books visibility in their store based on strict manual review. So yeah indie authors are not a huge threat to Big 5 anymore....but still they can suck the life blood out of indies further by uploading their backlist on Kindle Unlimited.

    The romance charts on Amazon have plenty of indie books on them. If they're right up there in the top 1,000 of the whole store, how can you say that they're buried?
             

    Offline IndieEuroAuthor

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #41 on: July 07, 2020, 03:49:21 pm »
    No, I'm not. I'm talking about readers like me, who only ever seem to finish trad books. I still buy the indie books - hope springs eternal, I guess - but I never manage to finish them. And I don't doubt for a minute that there are plenty more readers like me, who will search out a trad book over an indie, because we've been burned by crappy indie books too many times.

    That sounds like me...I still sometimes buy indie books, but not in any main "money making" genres.

    Mills & Boone, and Harlequin, etc. became a household name based on giving consumers the books they wanted. Romance readers are voracious, and indie books are cheap, so it's no surprise that indie romances would really appeal to romance readers if they're decent quality. Plus, KU would give them even more bang for their buck (no pun intended).

    Yeah I did say Mills & Boon looks like Literary Fiction compared to the crap being sold/borrowed on KU right now. I said Mills & Boon weren't stellar works of literature in the trad pub world....but compared to 99% indie romance, they are indeed stellar.

    But that wasn't the quality that I was referring to. When I buy a trad book, I know that it had to go through the publishing acquisition team at the very least, and probably an agent, too. It also went through a professional editor - not just someone who hung up a shingle and called themselves that - at least once and probably twice, plus a proofreader. That means the agent and the publisher had to think it was worth publishing, and then a bunch of other people helped to make it better. People might have differing views about what constitutes a good story, but with trad books, at least I know they went through the publishing process and have been brought to an acceptable level of grammar and spelling.

    This. This is what I actually meant by Quality. We do pay higher price for this quality assurance. People call it gate keeping, but I don't care anymore. Go through Penguin Random House Catalogue vs Amazon/Smashwords Top 1000 charts and you will quickly realise the pitfalls of no checks and balances indie publishing. My ranking system for buying books is this Big 5 > Small Press/Hybrid > Pure Indie.

    The romance charts on Amazon have plenty of indie books on them. If they're right up there in the top 1,000 of the whole store, how can you say that they're buried?

    I said the good books are buried. I didn't say all indie books are buried. Overwhelming majority of the indie romance books floating at the top of Amazon are crap. It is NOT a subjective opinion. Go check the authors. Many of them are releasing full length romance novels every 15 days....month after month. Do you think any human being can write like that? At first I thought they were using Ghost Writers. Then I found their real secret. This is their modus operandi:

    1) They are actually running content mill farms in certain paid romance forums. Lots of authors get together and decide to publish stories under a single pen name. This way that pen name can completely dominate the store taking advantage of i) always having a brand new release ii) having a massive backlist.

    2) They completely game the review system using ARCs and bought reviews. Books full of typos, errors and zero editing gets 50 - 100 glowing 5 star reviews within a few weeks of launch. They even throw in some 4 star reviews to make it more natural looking.

    3) They then advertise that pen name.

    4) Collect profits.

    Then there is another new brunch of indie authors rising up. One romance author on reddit was bragging about the fact that she has made $100K in one year in KU. Oh, then she added, she has spent $50K+ in ads. Another non-fiction author on reddit was bragging about the fact that he has hit 1 Best Seller ranking in a very large and competitive category. But yeah, he is still running at a loss cause he is still spending more on ads than the money he is making. How many new indie authors do you think can spend $50,000+ in ads? So these wealthy indie authors can push out less fortunate indie authors using their power of $$$. If the power of $$$ rules, then I will rather take the Big 5 who actually has excellent quality control in place.

    The situation is unfortunate. Personally I have stopped buying indie books and stick with the Big 5 99% of the time.

    I think we are trying to say the same point using slightly different perspectives.





    « Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 03:53:17 pm by IndieEuroAuthor »

    Offline markpauloleksiw

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #42 on: July 08, 2020, 05:14:25 am »
    Think about it this way...

    Author A spends $50,000 a year on AMS ads.

    Author A generates tons of page reads on Kindle through those ads.

    Author A gets a nice KU payout, goes up the charts, and Amazon is happy because most of Author A's earnings go back to them. Both Author A and Amazon are happy. Author A can claim they have "best seller" get KU bonus payments less what they spend on ads.

    Who loses? The independent author who cannot spend $50,000 on Ads.

    Quite a few articles out there about how this system is working. In fact, as noted in previous posts, there is a whole subset in the romance genre who have mastered this. The book stuffers caught on fast.

    So Amazon has created a nice conflict of interest for itself. In fact, indirectly through AMS, Amazon is siphoning off the KU fund....


    Mark


    Online Amanda M. Lee

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #43 on: July 08, 2020, 06:10:40 am »
    A lot of this sounds like sour grapes. Is the playing field level? No. You have to work for it, and hard. Not everyone is spending all their money on ads. I know people spending 40K a month to make 210K a month. I know people spending 5K a month to make 165K a month. I know people spending nothing to make 3K a month. Nobody has the exact same numbers.
    As for those complaining about "non-quality" indie books, as long as this is your beef, you'll never succeed. Comparing your "masterpiece" to what you consider drivel will always find you lagging. I'm not a romance reader but there's obviously a market. Go talk to those readers. They're real people and love their books. Taking on the speed at which someone writes is a waste of time. If you put your limitations on others, all you are is limited.
    The truth is, it's not Amazon's job to make life fair. Life is never going to be fair. Amazon provided they marketplace and it's our job to do the rest.

    Amanda M. Lee

    Offline markpauloleksiw

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #44 on: July 08, 2020, 09:43:12 am »
    I don't think it is a matter of fair or not.

    End of the day, each author must make informed decisions. However, there are people out there "selling" the model...spend a ton on AMS/Facebook/Bookbub...whatever and you will kind a bigger piece of the KU pie....Now if everyone buys into that...it is going to be a nightmare for any newbie with a modest budget.

    What is not fair is this...the scam practices that existed before still exist and many of those "scammers" are the ones receiving the KU bonuses. Why are the loopholes not closed?
    Book stuffing is still going on apparently in KU.

    Mark


    Offline boba1823

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #45 on: July 08, 2020, 11:22:17 am »
    In business, it's rarely a good idea to generalise from one's own case. Based on the (admittedly limited) research I've done, which is consistent with my own experience:

    Book buyers do not differentiate between trad. pub books and indie books. Sure, a few do, but it's the ordinary book buyer that is of interest. The vast majority know very, very little about the publishing business. Some might recognise a few of the very big name imprints, but there are hundreds of imprints owned by the Big Five. No one (outside of the publishing industry) cares enough to keep track.

    In effect, the average book buyer doesn't know if your book is self-published. Unless you tell them (intentionally or otherwise). There's a sort of low level of awareness than self-publishing is a thing - and yeah, it's still associated with not being good enough to get book deal - but that's about it. What they do notice is.. amateur looking covers. Bad titles, bad blurbs, bad writing on the first page if they make it that far. Price can be an issue as well; people tend to wonder what's wrong with a book if it's being offered for free or an unusually low price like 99 cents. And yes, such pricing does strike the average reader as unusual, because most readers are not signed up for discount newsletters, and they do not troll around on Amazon lists looking for their next book.

    Anyway, these potential 'red flags' concerning quality are things that may turn away your average buyer. But if a book is packaged in a slick and professional way, nearly every potential buyer will treat it.. just like any other book, without regard for the publisher. The 'literary' genre is the only area in which this might not apply, though I'd say that issues such as.. not having a editorial reviews in prestige publications is the bigger issue for an indie.

    Also - not having a decent advertising budget.. that's bad. If you intend to take publishing seriously as a business, anyway. You don't necessarily need like $50k to start out, but.. well, getting a part-time job at Shakey Shack so you have some money for book marketing is probably going to be a more efficient use of time than just writing more stuff that no one can find.

    Offline IndieEuroAuthor

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    Re: Publishers with books in KU and wide?
    « Reply #46 on: July 09, 2020, 07:10:19 pm »
    A lot of this sounds like sour grapes. Is the playing field level? No. You have to work for it, and hard. Not everyone is spending all their money on ads. I know people spending 40K a month to make 210K a month. I know people spending 5K a month to make 165K a month. I know people spending nothing to make 3K a month. Nobody has the exact same numbers.
    As for those complaining about "non-quality" indie books, as long as this is your beef, you'll never succeed. Comparing your "masterpiece" to what you consider drivel will always find you lagging. I'm not a romance reader but there's obviously a market. Go talk to those readers. They're real people and love their books. Taking on the speed at which someone writes is a waste of time. If you put your limitations on others, all you are is limited.
    The truth is, it's not Amazon's job to make life fair. Life is never going to be fair. Amazon provided they marketplace and it's our job to do the rest.

    I don't remember calling my own work masterpiece, so there is no need to get so agitated. It is a fact that a random trad pub book is likely to be far, far higher quality than a random indie book. Also I didn't dis the romance genre itself, I said even in mass market genre romance the difference in quality between random trad pub and a random indie title is telling. (Editing, proofreading etc).

    I don't think Amazon's insane churn rate is sustainable for most writers who intend to make a full time living.

    The discussion deviated from the original thread. But anyway we were simply discussing why wide is more suitable for many authors. The wide author will probably won't become very rich but will likely maintain his sanity.

    Also, keep in mind at least 95% of KU scamming, gaming and scheming shenanigans happen in Romance genre. That's why I specifically brought up that genre.


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