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The crux of the indie publishing problem, 2020 version: profitability

13K views 105 replies 38 participants last post by  Doglover 
#1 ·
I was listening to the Sell More Books Show this week, and the hosts raised an issue that I've been thinking about a lot:

The problem is not selling our books. The problem is selling our books profitably.​

Almost all of us can run ads, do promos, etc., and find ways to "move books". But at high PPC rates, doing so profitably is another matter.

I have books with solid 4.5 averages that don't sell unless I constantly run ads to them. With ads, they sell, but I sometimes find that I'm paying for people to read my books at the end of the day.

Or, as one of the Sell More Books Show hosts put it (I'm paraphrasing a bit): It's easy to make $100K nowadays, if you don't mind spending between $98K and $110K to do it.

Mark Dawson revealed earlier this year that he spent a whopping $500K on Amazon ads alone.

Anyone else feel this way? Or am I completely misreading the situation?
 
#77 ·
Most writers won't make very much money. That's a statistical fact. There are fewer professional genre novelists making a living in the entire world than there are professional athletes in the US. Writing a book large numbers of people would want to read, that connect with them on a personal level, is a very unique skill set. The availability of, and easy access to, sales platforms and advertising doesn't change this. So if an author is in this for the money, the odds are they'll be sorely disappointed.
The question of "do I have what it takes" is one of the most common we ask ourselves. Likely, the answer is no. But that shouldn't stop you from writing. And if it does, you are better off for it. Write because you love it. Not for money. That's where it always starts. You very well might have the talent to take it to the next level. But that's for readers to judge. All you can do is enjoy telling your stories and be content that you have given life to your creativity. Writing begins as an outlet where you can voice frustration and anger, express joy and hope, rail against cruelty and injustice, praise the kind and brave. If you do this well enough, others will want to share in the experience. If you don't, they won't, but you have still given agency to your heart and mind. That alone is deeply satisfying.
 
#78 ·
Sam Clemens, of Huck Finn fame, perhaps the greatest American writer, couldn't make a consistent profit writing.

Hitting it is hard because of the sheer number of skills that you need, along with all the ducks you need in a row. It's not a moral or ethical failing of a writer who isn't making it.

As evidence, I point out all the big talkers who used to be here, talking up their success hard, and how they're now nowhere to be seen. Did they suddenly become bad writers? No. Incompetent? No. It's just that the factors working towards their success are now different, punching a hole in their egos.

The folks (that I know here) who have done well are generally competent, see their income go up and down, continuously learn more marketing, and don't have a super-magical formula. The other set that I see are the low earners who haven't hit it yet, are still learning, and are generally driven by vision more than statistics.
 
#79 ·
Most big earners left this board years ago. Up to eight or nine years ago, but especially three or four years ago. A great many are still big earners.

Brian Anderson is right. It is rare to be able to write books lots of people want to read, and to be able to do it year after year. Talent is not enough. You also need one heck of a work ethic and generally the ability to put out those very readable books pretty fast. (Not necessarily a book a month. At least a few books a year.)

That is not just true in indie. Even fewer tradpub authors make a good or great living.

Many people who eventually make it do not hit big at first. The only way to know is to try again, getting lots of hard feedback (including, sorry, taking note of how your work is received, which means reading those bad reviews), and see if you get there.

Even if you never earn a good living at it, that does not mean you will earn nothing, or that you cannot share your work with the readers you do have. That is the beauty of indie. Before, if your first book tanked or just did not sell great, good luck selling another. Now, people can keep trying, or just keep writing for enjoyment.

Indie has pushed expectations higher, that is all. Great success was pretty much a pipe dream before. Now, it is merely unlikely.
 
#80 ·
Usedtoposthere said:
Most big earners left this board years ago. Up to eight or nine years ago, but especially three or four years ago. A great many are still big earners.

Brian Anderson is right. It is rare to be able to write books lots of people want to read, and to be able to do it year after year. Talent is not enough. You also need one heck of a work ethic and generally the ability to put out those very readable books pretty fast. (Not necessarily a book a month. At least a few books a year.)

That is not just true in indie. Even fewer tradpub authors make a good or great living.

Many people who eventually make it do not hit big at first. The only way to know is to try again, getting lots of hard feedback (including, sorry, taking note of how your work is received, which means reading those bad reviews), and see if you get there.

Even if you never earn a good living at it, that does not mean you will earn nothing, or that you cannot share your work with the readers you do have. That is the beauty of indie. Before, if your first book tanked or just did not sell great, good luck selling another. Now, people can keep trying, or just keep writing for enjoyment.

Indie has pushed expectations higher, that is all. Great success was pretty much a pipe dream before. Now, it is merely unlikely.
Writers who earn living don't spend much time talking about how they do it. They tend to stay clear of the subject if possible. The same moronic questions keep being asked - Do I need an editor? Do I need a proof reader? Does my cover really matter? How much should I spend on ads? Do they actually work? And on and on and on. And when they answer honestly, they get told they're wrong and shouted down for their efforts. Which coincidentally is why many authors left this forum.
No one wants to hear they lack the talent; that should they manage to sell some books the reception won't be what they're hoping for. Even if that's what they need to hear. They want to believe it's a marketing gimmick they've yet to learn, or simply a case of lacking exposure. While a writer can certainly spend enough money to put on a successful ad campaign, if the work isn't up to snuff their triumph will be short lived and very expensive.
Writing is an expression of the mind's creativity. I believe everyone should have a creative outlet. I also believe everyone possesses talent. It's to what degree that becomes the question. Tragically, the answer is often hard to hear. It was for me when I tried to write original music. My songs were at best mediocre. It hurt to discover this. But I got over it and moved on. I still play and I still write music. But I do it for my own enjoyment. which is all we can expect from art we create. Anything beyond that is a bonus.
I've had a pretty good career so far, spending nine years as an indie before signing with Tor. I have an agent and a wonderful fan base. I've met fantastic writers, many of whom I call my friend. I've had financial ups and downs (the downs mostly due to poor choices). I wouldn't suggest modeling a career after mine. But all-in-all, I'm happy with my past and excited about the future. I know it could all end. And I know I'm fortunate to have been able to use my talent to earn a living. But should the world come crashing down, I'd still write my stories, even if no one wanted to read them and I ended up working at the 7-11.
 
#81 ·
This was a very useful message for me to read. I was on this forum back in the wonder days and even then didn't do anything spectacular. I published one novel and chatted to quite a few of the active writers when Kindle had just started. Even met Hugh Howie in the flesh. I still chat to some of the writers of those beginning days for e-books. I can see everything has changed wildly. I did sign up with Mark Dawson for two courses one being advertising some months ago. I get easily side tracked and haven't written for ages. Am thinking of starting up again partly because I'm bored, and would like some extra money. I don't even know if I have it in me to write book 2. Actually I have the first draft written -just need to fix and change.

My biggest problem is that I am really technically challenged and that slows me down considerably. Yes, i've taken courses-still make a lot of errors.

I don't know if anything can be done at 77. We'll see. I know in the present climate I'll not be getting a job in  Mc Donald's. Thanks for the information anyway- I can't ever see myself spending thousands of dollars in advertising. Writing sounds a lot more stressful than it used to be.
 
#82 ·
The thing I think people really don't understand is--this isn't a business where you coast once you "succeed." Think of being a pro athlete. Nobody's coasting! They work hard and they KEEP working hard, because it is a rocky, narrow slope up near (or at) the top of that mountain. You keep striving not just to maintain, but to get BETTER.

So, yeah, money's nice. But when you start doing well, if you want to stay in this business (if you aren't just looking for some get rich quick thing), you double down and work harder. I worked a good 10 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for my first five years or so. Now I don't work as hard, because Life, and, yep, it shows in how I do. (Which is OK. Those first five years set me up well.)

I'm still trying to write better, though. ALWAYS. Still pushing my way up that mountain. The truth is that I'm not good enough to satisfy myself yet. That's really frustrating sometimes, but I just keep pushing the envelope with every book, and with every book, I come a little closer to becoming the author I want to be.

This is a great job, and I wouldn't even call it a hard job. A hard job is teaching or being a nurse or a landscaper or a commercial fisherman. (My kids have done most of those jobs. Way harder.) But it's a job that requires a lot of effort and, depending on your personality, probably a fair amount of doubt and anguish at times.
 
#83 ·
Not sure if you are replying to my comments but I'm 77. I've done nursing and some teaching and other hard jobs. Believe me I know what is difficult. My choices are to write or die or run for president. I wasn't born in USA so wouldn't even qualify for that.
I have a retirement. I don't need to make a six figure income, but there may be a few things I'd like to say to people before I move on. 
 
#84 ·
P.A. Woodburn said:
Not sure if you are replying to my comments but I'm 77. I've done nursing and some teaching and other hard jobs. Believe me I know what is difficult. My choices are to write or die or run for president. I wasn't born in USA so wouldn't even qualify for that.
I have a retirement. I don't need to make a six figure income, but there may be a few things I'd like to say to people before I move on.
Sorry. Wasn't replying to you! (I think you posted while I was writing the above, actually.) You sound like you've got your head on your shoulders to me. Best of luck with it.
 
#85 ·
Usedtoposthere said:
The thing I think people really don't understand is--this isn't a business where you coast once you "succeed." Think of being a pro athlete. Nobody's coasting! They work hard and they KEEP working hard, because it is a rocky, narrow slope up near (or at) the top of that mountain. You keep striving not just to maintain, but to get BETTER.

So, yeah, money's nice. But when you start doing well, if you want to stay in this business (if you aren't just looking for some get rich quick thing), you double down and work harder. I worked a good 10 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for my first five years or so. Now I don't work as hard, because Life, and, yep, it shows in how I do. (Which is OK. Those first five years set me up well.)

I'm still trying to write better, though. ALWAYS. Still pushing my way up that mountain. The truth is that I'm not good enough to satisfy myself yet. That's really frustrating sometimes, but I just keep pushing the envelope with every book, and with every book, I come a little closer to becoming the author I want to be.

This is a great job, and I wouldn't even call it a hard job. A hard job is teaching or being a nurse or a landscaper or a commercial fisherman. (My kids have done most of those jobs. Way harder.) But it's a job that requires a lot of effort and, depending on your personality, probably a fair amount of doubt and anguish at times.
I'd say it's more about working smart than hard, or maybe smart and hard--it's way harder to write five not to market books than one to market book--but very much this.

People think success is a destination, but it's not. Once you get there, you have to keep climbing or you start falling.
 
#86 ·
One thing I think should be remembered by everyone - and especially the wonderful authors here who entered the business years ago and garnered early success in self publishing - is that the landscape is very, very different now for new writers. I feel like I entered self publishing (2017) just at the tail end of when a well-received book could organically succeed. A lot of the writers in this thread also enjoyed the benefits of Amazon's algorithms pushing their books hard, and also the simple fact that there was far, far, far less competition. It's all well and good to discuss the reasons for success, but I'd hesitate in claiming that the lessons of 2012 can be applied to 2020. The writers talking about how they do not need to advertise I'm fairly sure gathered a significant audience in the halcyon days of self publishing, before the advent of AMS ads and Facebook. Nowadays, I'm not sure how authors can succeed without a significant initial ad budget, a rapid release schedule, and a top-shelf cover . . . unless they're writing in one of those 'hungry' genres unique to self publishing, like LitRPG and Harem in fantasy, where readers are voracious and the there still aren't enough quality books to go around. But releasing an epic fantasy now? Or a cozy mystery? Or a military sci fi book? I would be very surprised if you can just drop your book into Amazon and see significant success, as many in this thread did years ago (and I did as well). It's a whole new ball game. 
 
#87 ·
P.A. Woodburn said:
I don't know if anything can be done at 77. We'll see. I know in the present climate I'll not be getting a job in Mc Donald's. Thanks for the information anyway- I can't ever see myself spending thousands of dollars in advertising. Writing sounds a lot more stressful than it used to be.
You are never past it. I'm 72 and have written over thirty books, but I'm fit and well and hoping for another twenty years at least. I know it can get a bit stale, but recently one of my series has done really well and readers keep asking for more, so instead of the new series I was thinking about, I've gone back to adding more to that one. Not what I'd planned but if they want it, who am I to argue? I don't have the stamina to write all day like I used to, but I have perseverance.
 
#88 ·
鬼 said:
I spend what I consider a decent amount on ads every month. It usually fluctuates between 3500-15000 every month. So far, every month has been solid and an increase over last year. That's a win in my book. Some months are better than others and COVID has certainly had an impact on me.

I live what I consider a very comfortable lifestyle now ever since I went full time. I've paid for renovation projects, paid off debt and more. There's always more to do, though. Onwards and upwards.

I think advertising is a key component. For example, I wouldn't have gotten where I am now without Amazon ads. (I'm only starting FB ads now.) We're in a pay to play society now. Start small and work your way up. That's exactly what I did. And for the record, I'm only just starting my mailing list now. It can be done.
wow how do you even spend that much on amazon ads? I can't get them to spend unless I set cpc for like $2! kudos
 
#89 ·
Doglover said:
You are never past it. I'm 72 and have written over thirty books, but I'm fit and well and hoping for another twenty years at least. I know it can get a bit stale, but recently one of my series has done really well and readers keep asking for more, so instead of the new series I was thinking about, I've gone back to adding more to that one. Not what I'd planned but if they want it, who am I to argue? I don't have the stamina to write all day like I used to, but I have perseverance.
Doglover: I remember you from days gone by I'm pretty sure. Glad you have stuck with it and are doing well. We just adopted a new rescue from Hawaii - a very fearful girl - she is a project on her own, but we see improvements daily.

Starting out sounds a lot harder now because it sounds like you need quite a sum to put down on advertising as soon as you start with no idea if the book will sell. That's like a lottery. That makes me feel very nervous.
 
#91 ·
P.A. Woodburn said:
Doglover: I remember you from days gone by I'm pretty sure. Glad you have stuck with it and are doing well. We just adopted a new rescue from Hawaii - a very fearful girl - she is a project on her own, but we see improvements daily.

Starting out sounds a lot harder now because it sounds like you need quite a sum to put down on advertising as soon as you start with no idea if the book will sell. That's like a lottery. That makes me feel very nervous.
I have a puppy, now eight months old, so she takes up a lot of my time. I can only write when she's asleep, but she won't be a puppy forever. Good luck with your rescue. Always a good feeling.
 
#92 ·
P.A. Woodburn said:
Yes, it sounds to me like you need a tremendous amount of money up front to play this game now. I'm shattered.
No, you start small and put your profit back in the following month. It takes time to build up to those sorts of amounts, but it can be done. The main problem is that the ads want payment at the end of the month, Amazon don't pay you for two months. That's where I have problems.
 
#93 ·
Doglover said:
I have a puppy, now eight months old, so she takes up a lot of my time. I can only write when she's asleep, but she won't be a puppy forever. Good luck with your rescue. Always a good feeling.
It really sounds as though you could lose that start up money, definitely-how small?

One major problem our dog has is chewing everything in sight. She had chewed three leashes and a harness to bits before we figured out what was happening. I think she's improving but we try to watch her 24/7.
 
#94 ·
P.A. Woodburn said:
It really sounds as though you could lose that start up money, definitely-how small?

One major problem our dog has is chewing everything in sight. She had chewed three leashes and a harness to bits before we figured out what was happening. I think she's improving but we try to watch her 24/7.
I don't do so well with Amazon ads, but I think they are probably better for single books. I advertise series on Facebook and you can start off with $5 a day and see where it goes. I like Facebook because I can see where money's going and if it's worth keeping the ad going.

The only things my puppy has chewed are six pairs of slippers which she likes to rip off my feet and the carpet underlay. I've had to change to laminated flooring.
 
#95 ·
Doglover said:
I don't do so well with Amazon ads, but I think they are probably better for single books. I advertise series on Facebook and you can start off with $5 a day and see where it goes. I like Facebook because I can see where money's going and if it's worth keeping the ad going.

The only things my puppy has chewed are six pairs of slippers which she likes to rip off my feet and the carpet underlay. I've had to change to laminated flooring.
$5.00 a day sounds like something I could live with. About the price of a cup of coffee. Haven't had coffee for months because of the virus. Could make it at home but not like they do with all the machines.
 
#96 ·
AlecHutson said:
Nowadays, I'm not sure how authors can succeed without a significant initial ad budget, a rapid release schedule, and a top-shelf cover . . . unless they're writing in one of those 'hungry' genres unique to self publishing, like LitRPG and Harem in fantasy, where readers are voracious and the there still aren't enough quality books to go around. But releasing an epic fantasy now? Or a cozy mystery? Or a military sci fi book? I would be very surprised if you can just drop your book into Amazon and see significant success, as many in this thread did years ago (and I did as well). It's a whole new ball game.
It's still very possible to do well. The market has changed for sure and ads are no longer optional if you want to launch and do well. But you don't have to rapid release or have a monster ad budget. You do need to learn how to run ads effectively and that can take some time. Learning how to do marketing well will give you an edge. Relevancy is the most important thing with ads--targeting the right, most relevant books and authors. Having a book that resonates. My ads never did much until I wrote a book that readers loved--then it was much easier, and the ads worked so much better. I started small and only scaled when my ad was profitable. AMS ads can scale well in this scenario. You can't force it though--if your book isn't something readers want to buy, all the ads in the world won't make it a hit.
 
#97 ·
Crystal_ said:
I'd say it's more about working smart than hard, or maybe smart and hard--it's way harder to write five not to market books than one to market book--but very much this.

People think success is a destination, but it's not. Once you get there, you have to keep climbing or you start falling.
This is a trip down a side street for this thread's topic, but this isn't true for everyone. I've never been able to write a book whose plot is satisfying an external standard. As in "these kinds of stories have X or Y happen." Call it writing-to-market or whatever, but I can't do it.

This is not to say that what I write isn't having a conversation with what already exists in the marketplace, but it's usually a reply to the chorus, not another voice in that chorus. I'm confounding genre expectations more often than not, and most of the time I don't know I'm doing it.

Everyone has a different way to tell and get to the end of a story. "Easier" is different for everyone.
 
#98 ·
GeneDoucette said:
This is a trip down a side street for this thread's topic, but this isn't true for everyone. I've never been able to write a book whose plot is satisfying an external standard. As in "these kinds of stories have X or Y happen." Call it writing-to-market or whatever, but I can't do it.

This is not to say that what I write isn't having a conversation with what already exists in the marketplace, but it's usually a reply to the chorus, not another voice in that chorus. I'm confounding genre expectations more often than not, and most of the time I don't know I'm doing it.

Everyone has a different way to tell and get to the end of a story. "Easier" is different for everyone.
I think the argument, though, is money. If you want to make a lot of money (and keep making it) writing to market is often key, as is continued publication. There is no "one book and done" magical moment that equates to making money forever. Also, how much money is needed to live is vastly different for different people.
 
#99 ·
Amanda M. Lee said:
I think the argument, though, is money. If you want to make a lot of money (and keep making it) writing to market is often key, as is continued publication. There is no "one book and done" magical moment that equates to making money forever. Also, how much money is needed to live is vastly different for different people.
I agree that writing to market MAY be key, and that there is no 'one book and done' magical moment. I also agree that 'money to live' is different for everyone. (I've already said upthread that I'm doing fine with a writing income that keeps pace with my full-time job income.) However: the 'one book and done' part is a straw man, because nobody said anything about that. "Writing to market" isn't the opposite of "writing one book that's a huge success".
 
#100 ·
Justawriter said:
It's still very possible to do well. The market has changed for sure and ads are no longer optional if you want to launch and do well. But you don't have to rapid release or have a monster ad budget. You do need to learn how to run ads effectively and that can take some time. Learning how to do marketing well will give you an edge. Relevancy is the most important thing with ads--targeting the right, most relevant books and authors. Having a book that resonates. My ads never did much until I wrote a book that readers loved--then it was much easier, and the ads worked so much better. I started small and only scaled when my ad was profitable. AMS ads can scale well in this scenario. You can't force it though--if your book isn't something readers want to buy, all the ads in the world won't make it a hit.
Well, okay, but I was talking about writers coming to self publishing right now and debuting their first books, not writers like yourself who have been at this for many years and make 6 figures a year. All of us who have been at this for a while have tremendous advantages over totally new writers, whether that's an audience, contacts among other authors to help with new pen name launches, or simply extremely granular knowledge of how to advertise effectively.
 
#101 ·
AlecHutson said:
Well, okay, but I was talking about writers coming to self publishing right now and debuting their first books, not writers like yourself who have been at this for many years and make 6 figures a year. All of us who have been at this for a while have tremendous advantages over totally new writers, whether that's an audience, contacts among other authors to help with new pen name launches, or simply extremely granular knowledge of how to advertise effectively.
Well, over a year ago, I shifted genres, and didn't use my mailing list because I didn't want to mess up the alsoboughts. So, I was basically starting from scratch, so very similar to being a new author except that I was ad savvy--from spending the time to learn it. Anyone can do that if they put the time in. And I started with tiny ad budgets like $10 a day. Money was tight when I started this new shift, I'd dropped the ball on my other books, so I didn't have any kind of significant ad budget. I just scaled as I could and kept growing by reinvesting a percentage of profits (under 10% at the time) into new ads.

I think a lot of new authors don't put the time in to really study this stuff before they publish. I studied Kboards for several years before hitting publish....it was another time then, no KU, but what I learned made all the difference. And things keep changing. I see new people doing well all the time and they have one thing in common it seems, they treat this like a business, make a marketing strategy and execute on it. Unlike the majority that put a book up then go somewhere and post "what do I do now?"
 
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