Author Topic: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?  (Read 2959 times)  

Offline Gregg Bell

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Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
« on: September 02, 2020, 07:01:21 pm »
I'm always looking for a better/faster way to write. I know a lot of you swear by Scrivener, but it just seems so complicated to me (starting with the two-hour 'get to know Scrivener' tutorial). All these notes and cork-boards and what have you seem like a pain to a former pantser like me. I used yWriter7 to write my last book and I am fairly satisfied with the results. (I'll soon see if the public agrees.) Anyway, I'm kind of feeling like I'm missing out on something by not using Scrivener. Am I? Is it really that great?

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    Offline alcyone

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #1 on: September 02, 2020, 07:44:51 pm »
    I think it really depends on you and how your brain works. We all create differently.

    I'm somewhere in the middle between pantser and plotter. I know how my story is going to begin and end, and I know what the theme is. I spend quite a bit of time figuring out my characters and getting them straight in my head. But I don't find I have trouble keeping my characters or the story organized. So, I prefer to just write in Word (or Apple Pages) because it's less cluttered and all I need is a word processor. I also sometimes get breaks at work where I can jump over and work on my fiction; my work computer doesn't have Scrivener, but it does have Word, so with saving to the cloud, I can jump over, grab my manuscript, and work on it without having to compile anything first or needing access to Scrivener.

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #2 on: September 02, 2020, 07:53:28 pm »
    I love Scrivener. The cork board is great, and I love being able to drag and drop the scenes around in the binder. The thing with Scrivener is you don't need to use everything if you don't want to. You only have to use as much as you want to use.

    Since you like yWriter, you'd probably like Scrivener, too.
             

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #3 on: September 03, 2020, 02:23:06 am »
    I'm always looking for a better/faster way to write. I know a lot of you swear by Scrivener, but it just seems so complicated to me (starting with the two-hour 'get to know Scrivener' tutorial). All these notes and cork-boards and what have you seem like a pain to a former pantser like me. I used yWriter7 to write my last book and I am fairly satisfied with the results. (I'll soon see if the public agrees.) Anyway, I'm kind of feeling like I'm missing out on something by not using Scrivener. Am I? Is it really that great?

    As someone who is terrible on computers, I'm confused what you mean by complicated. The main useage of Scrivener is to have a single place where you can have many spearate chapter files and reference files all in one place. It's not complicated at all. You can then compile and export to the file type of choice, like Word or whatever you want to send your editor (or convert with Vellum). For trouble-shooting there are many free videos on Youtube that walk you through step by step on how to do things.

    I couldn't imagine writing a novel in Word again after using Scrivener.

    Offline Jeff Hughes

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #4 on: September 03, 2020, 02:36:12 am »
    For those of us who grew up writing on a typewriter, clacking keys an ever present accompaniment to those words being born, carbon paper and whiteout ever close at hand... word processing software is a Godsend.  Even the simple, monolithic word processors like Word and Pages are a remarkable gift.

    All of which is to say... we are so blessed to have the choices we do.  Scrivener is an elegant, beautiful, deep piece of software.  Like Shayne says, use as much of it, or as little, as you like.  There's nothing at all wrong with using it simply, directly - in which case you can be up and running in about ten minutes.  Knowing that it has all these other capabilities that you can discover when (if) you have the need.

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #5 on: September 03, 2020, 03:25:01 am »
    I've tried a couple of times to see the benefit of Scrivener and to find out how the thing works. I don't see the point. I use Word, always have, and if I do need any notes or anything I just use a separate file in Word. I don't even know how all of that works, to be honest; I don't need more complications in my life.


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    Offline jvin248

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #6 on: September 03, 2020, 04:53:49 am »
    .

    I use mind mapping/brainstorming software for the cork-board work (Freeplane at the moment, https://www.freeplane.org/wiki/index.php/Home) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nterm2yTApM

    Then I use LibreOffice for the actual writing https://www.libreoffice.org/

    I will rearrange a finished brainstorming map into chapters inside Freeplane/etc and then output that organized outline to text that I bring into LibreOffice. Then I write to the outline, deleting the outline points as I go. Sometimes I have brainstormed topic bubbles that are filled with nearly complete dialog that I just fill in all the tags and actions and punctuation and maybe edit a few words but the content was created while brainstorming. So it's not a rigid sterile outline.

    .
    « Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 04:57:47 am by jvin248 »
           

    Offline Nicole Simon

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #7 on: September 03, 2020, 05:28:11 am »
    I have been using Scrivener for a few years now and I think i only went to the cork board by accident. I do write non fiction, so I mainly use scrivener a a massive outlining tool which will help me in keeping stuff in place. I am also highly proficient in word, have been teaching tools like this for decades (no, not kidding. ).
    The answer is - as always - it depends.

    What I see as a potential yes for you in scrivener is this: Setting all the bells and whistles aside, it is a good writing tool for writing fiction. It has some aspects which might help you in your production, especially the daily statistics. You mention you are a former pantser - I believe it works best when you can use it with story beats. Each of the folders or chapters in the binder can have their own completion status - that helps with f.e. working on different aspects. It produces a good and consistent epub output and helps a lot with that. Looking through the website of your writer, it has a lot of that as well.

    I tried out the free smartwriter and what brought me back to scrivener was the adaptable keyboard shortcuts. i am relying so much on them to quickly work instead of having to use the mouse all the time and that feature alone was worth it.

    So ask yourself: Did you miss something critical / was there something with your current software? If not, just write with it! ;)

    Offline jm2019

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #8 on: September 03, 2020, 06:55:14 am »
    Tried it, couldn't get used to it. Tried Ulysses, liked it, but abandoned it. Tried Word, too slow.

    I now write using Markdown with Visual Studio Code and use a beta tool to process it to word and ePub etc. This has been the least complex/fastest setup for me - VS code (free, from Microsoft, extremely popular among programmers) has many extensions that help you soup it up. And the fact that my entire manuscript is a simple text file on any folder I want, and not a proprietary format, makes it very portable.

    If you're interested, I can share a post I wrote on medium on how to use VS code for writing novels.

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #9 on: September 03, 2020, 07:13:32 am »
    I also use yWriter, and it works well for me. I export the semi-final version from there in RTF, then post-process to make some systemic fixes. I finish it off in Word after passes through the Word grammar machine and Grammarly.

    But there is a lot in Scrivener to recommend it and I might try it for book #4.  On the other hand, it is one more learning curve I'd have to climb and I'm not yet convinced that the difference between yWriter and Scrivener is worth it.

    I now write using Markdown with Visual Studio Code and use a beta tool to process it to word and ePub etc. This has been the least complex/fastest setup for me - VS code (free, from Microsoft, extremely popular among programmers) has many extensions that help you soup it up. And the fact that my entire manuscript is a simple text file on any folder I want, and not a proprietary format, makes it very portable.

    I used MSVS for years writing C and C#. Never thought about how it could be used for a novel. Interesting.

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #10 on: September 03, 2020, 07:32:57 am »
    I also use yWriter, and it works well for me. I export the semi-final version from there in RTF, then post-process to make some systemic fixes. I finish it off in Word after passes through the Word grammar machine and Grammarly.

    But there is a lot in Scrivener to recommend it and I might try it for book #4.  On the other hand, it is one more learning curve I'd have to climb and I'm not yet convinced that the difference between yWriter and Scrivener is worth it.

    I used MSVS for years writing C and C#. Never thought about how it could be used for a novel. Interesting.

    What is this learning curve you speak of? I'm computer illiterate and navigate Scrivener no problem.

    Offline jm2019

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #11 on: September 03, 2020, 07:40:55 am »
    @Rock - VS code is not the same as the VS of older times - this is a light(er) version, free, and is very popular now. I don't write code (haven't written in a while) but you should give it a shot. It's really, really good. :) My last couple of books have been written entirely this way. The extensions are powerful and really handy.

    I also use yWriter, and it works well for me. I export the semi-final version from there in RTF, then post-process to make some systemic fixes. I finish it off in Word after passes through the Word grammar machine and Grammarly.

    But there is a lot in Scrivener to recommend it and I might try it for book #4.  On the other hand, it is one more learning curve I'd have to climb and I'm not yet convinced that the difference between yWriter and Scrivener is worth it.

    I used MSVS for years writing C and C#. Never thought about how it could be used for a novel. Interesting.

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #12 on: September 03, 2020, 09:04:24 am »
    You aren't missing out. yWriter does a lot of what Scrivener does, just in slightly different ways.

    They both let you easily include extensive notes within the project, and flexibly organize projects in smaller chunks (chapters or scenes).

    The real leap is from office style word processors to either Scrivener or yWriter, and you've already made that transition. After that it's just whether your prefer bells or whistles.

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #13 on: September 03, 2020, 09:16:08 am »
     The only thing Scrivener has that ywriter doesn't is the corkboard. At least that was the only element missing that I cared about. There are probably other small differences. I think Scrivener lets you export as epub and ywriter doesn't do that. But the two programs are very similar. I like ywriter because it's free. Although I never remember to use it.
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    Offline RockWhitehouse

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #14 on: September 03, 2020, 09:33:48 am »
    What is this learning curve you speak of? I'm computer illiterate and navigate Scrivener no problem.

    I would take this as a huge compliment to Scrivener!

    To answer directly, I'm not sure. But I am entrenched/invested enough in what I'm currently using to question whether a switch is worth the price.

    I agree with J. Tanner - the big jump is from something like Word or OpenOffice or whatever to a chapter/scene organized product like yWriter or Scrivener. It's made a huge difference for me.





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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #15 on: September 03, 2020, 10:16:44 am »
    I think it really depends on you and how your brain works. We all create differently.

    I'm somewhere in the middle between pantser and plotter. I know how my story is going to begin and end, and I know what the theme is. I spend quite a bit of time figuring out my characters and getting them straight in my head. But I don't find I have trouble keeping my characters or the story organized. So, I prefer to just write in Word (or Apple Pages) because it's less cluttered and all I need is a word processor. I also sometimes get breaks at work where I can jump over and work on my fiction; my work computer doesn't have Scrivener, but it does have Word, so with saving to the cloud, I can jump over, grab my manuscript, and work on it without having to compile anything first or needing access to Scrivener.

    Thanks alcyone. Sounds like you've got the perfect method for your needs. I just need to determine what my needs are.

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #16 on: September 03, 2020, 10:18:39 am »
    I love Scrivener. The cork board is great, and I love being able to drag and drop the scenes around in the binder. The thing with Scrivener is you don't need to use everything if you don't want to. You only have to use as much as you want to use.

    Since you like yWriter, you'd probably like Scrivener, too.

    Thanks Shayne. I think it's worth trying at least. I've already downloaded it but was psyched out by the 2-hour introduction. (I know there's a shorter introduction version.)

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    Offline Gregg Bell

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #17 on: September 03, 2020, 10:22:58 am »
    As someone who is terrible on computers, I'm confused what you mean by complicated. The main useage of Scrivener is to have a single place where you can have many spearate chapter files and reference files all in one place. It's not complicated at all. You can then compile and export to the file type of choice, like Word or whatever you want to send your editor (or convert with Vellum). For trouble-shooting there are many free videos on Youtube that walk you through step by step on how to do things.

    I couldn't imagine writing a novel in Word again after using Scrivener.

    Thanks H.C.

    Quote
    I'm confused what you mean by complicated

    Well, when you're used to pantsing just on LibreOffice without switching scenes around or having notes on a corkboard, Scrivener seems complicated. Like, 'why do I need all that stuff?' But I guess I have the lingering suspicion that Scrivener will make me a better writer. (Maybe that's what I should've asked in the subject heading.)

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #18 on: September 03, 2020, 10:24:32 am »
    For those of us who grew up writing on a typewriter, clacking keys an ever present accompaniment to those words being born, carbon paper and whiteout ever close at hand... word processing software is a Godsend.  Even the simple, monolithic word processors like Word and Pages are a remarkable gift.

    All of which is to say... we are so blessed to have the choices we do.  Scrivener is an elegant, beautiful, deep piece of software.  Like Shayne says, use as much of it, or as little, as you like.  There's nothing at all wrong with using it simply, directly - in which case you can be up and running in about ten minutes.  Knowing that it has all these other capabilities that you can discover when (if) you have the need.


    Thanks Jeff. That makes sense. And yeah, I started on a typewriter. Scratching stuff out. Whiteout gunking things up. LOL

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #19 on: September 03, 2020, 10:25:45 am »
    I've tried a couple of times to see the benefit of Scrivener and to find out how the thing works. I don't see the point. I use Word, always have, and if I do need any notes or anything I just use a separate file in Word. I don't even know how all of that works, to be honest; I don't need more complications in my life.

    Thanks Doglover. I'm pretty much with you. But for me, I'm wondering if Scrivener will improve my writing.

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #20 on: September 03, 2020, 10:30:49 am »
    .

    I use mind mapping/brainstorming software for the cork-board work (Freeplane at the moment, https://www.freeplane.org/wiki/index.php/Home) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nterm2yTApM

    Then I use LibreOffice for the actual writing https://www.libreoffice.org/

    I will rearrange a finished brainstorming map into chapters inside Freeplane/etc and then output that organized outline to text that I bring into LibreOffice. Then I write to the outline, deleting the outline points as I go. Sometimes I have brainstormed topic bubbles that are filled with nearly complete dialog that I just fill in all the tags and actions and punctuation and maybe edit a few words but the content was created while brainstorming. So it's not a rigid sterile outline.

    .

    Thanks jvin. I looked at that Freeplane. Very interesting. Sounds like you've got a great process.

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    Offline Lyndawrites

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #21 on: September 03, 2020, 10:31:37 am »
    I've used both yWriter (6) and Scrivener and much prefer the former, although I currently use StoryBox.

    Pros and Cons:

    yWriter for better word count functionality, goal setting etc; ability to print out a scene list; moving scenes/chapters (Scriv tends to eat my scenes when I try to move them.)

    Scrivener for the corkboard which is miles better than yWriter's storyboard.

    Other than that, you take your pick. Good luck.

    Offline Gregg Bell

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #22 on: September 03, 2020, 10:34:04 am »
    I have been using Scrivener for a few years now and I think i only went to the cork board by accident. I do write non fiction, so I mainly use scrivener a a massive outlining tool which will help me in keeping stuff in place. I am also highly proficient in word, have been teaching tools like this for decades (no, not kidding. ).
    The answer is - as always - it depends.

    What I see as a potential yes for you in scrivener is this: Setting all the bells and whistles aside, it is a good writing tool for writing fiction. It has some aspects which might help you in your production, especially the daily statistics. You mention you are a former pantser - I believe it works best when you can use it with story beats. Each of the folders or chapters in the binder can have their own completion status - that helps with f.e. working on different aspects. It produces a good and consistent epub output and helps a lot with that. Looking through the website of your writer, it has a lot of that as well.

    I tried out the free smartwriter and what brought me back to scrivener was the adaptable keyboard shortcuts. i am relying so much on them to quickly work instead of having to use the mouse all the time and that feature alone was worth it.

    So ask yourself: Did you miss something critical / was there something with your current software? If not, just write with it! ;)

    Thanks Nicole. I think I just don't know if I'm missing something or not. I downloaded Scrivener. People say it's better than Ywriter. I'll give it a try at least. Maybe I'll find the features to be so helpful like you did.

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #23 on: September 03, 2020, 10:36:00 am »
    Tried it, couldn't get used to it. Tried Ulysses, liked it, but abandoned it. Tried Word, too slow.

    I now write using Markdown with Visual Studio Code and use a beta tool to process it to word and ePub etc. This has been the least complex/fastest setup for me - VS code (free, from Microsoft, extremely popular among programmers) has many extensions that help you soup it up. And the fact that my entire manuscript is a simple text file on any folder I want, and not a proprietary format, makes it very portable.

    If you're interested, I can share a post I wrote on medium on how to use VS code for writing novels.

    Thanks jm. I read one of your earlier posts about VS and checked it out. It looks so cool as an editor but I couldn't see writing on it. I'll probably download it anyway just to try it out.

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    Offline Gregg Bell

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    Re: Is learning Scrivener worth the effort (for writing a novel)?
    « Reply #24 on: September 03, 2020, 10:38:19 am »
    You aren't missing out. yWriter does a lot of what Scrivener does, just in slightly different ways.

    They both let you easily include extensive notes within the project, and flexibly organize projects in smaller chunks (chapters or scenes).

    The real leap is from office style word processors to either Scrivener or yWriter, and you've already made that transition. After that it's just whether your prefer bells or whistles.


    Thanks J. Yeah, yWriter seemed manageable. I'd have trouble keeping track of a timeline while pantsing and yWriter solved that problem. Now I'm just kind of siren-like drawn to Scrivener it seems. I think I'll have to try it to get the jonesing out of my system.

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