[jason10mm]

AFFC Week 6. Discuss Ch38 (Jaime) 11868 – the End!

1. Wow, Jaime’s deal with Edmure is pretty harsh, well, harsh if he fails to deliver Riverrun. Do you think he would actually sacrifice a child in this siege? Both he and Cersei seem to be constantly wondering what would Tywin do (WWTD).

2. Cersei’s plan against Margarey is coming to fruition. At this point, did you think she played Margarey or was Cersei being played by Taena Merryweather and Margarey?

3. Arianne was supposed to marry Viserys. How could Prince Doran have conceived and followed through with this plan? Who was he working with in Tyrosh? What is his new plan?

4. Sansa has matured greatly from the self-centered frilly girl that left Winterfell. Can she carry through Petyr’s plan to marry her to the line of Arryn and retake the North?

5. So, Lady Catelyn is leading what remains of the Brotherhood without Banners. What word could Brienne have screamed? Will it save her? Is Lady Stoneheart justified in her ruthlessness?

6. Wow, at a stroke Cersei is virtually deposed and the Regency of the realm is at stake. Lord and Lady Merryweather have fled, Aurane Waters absconded with the Navy, and Cersei’s small council has shed members loyal to her. What is the likely outcome of this trial?

7. Interesting, Jeyne Westerling’s mother was a Spicer, and her grandmother was a “half-mad witch woman from the East”. I wonder if she was Maggy the Frog who tormented Cersei?

8. Ser Dermont mentions large packs of wolves, including a “she-wolf of monstrous size. A direwolf, to hear him tell it.” Nymeria, perhaps? Jamie wonders the same thing.

9. And Jaime ignores the summons from Cersei. I feel like his transformation from the dark side to the light is complete Would he have ignored it if he knew the full extent of the problems in King’s Landing?

10. The Maesters want to remove magic from the world, it seems (most of them, anyway). Does this cloud your perception of how Maesters have acted in the series? Maester Luwin? Pycelle? Why would Alleras give the name of Pate (remember in the prologue, Pate was the novice who stole Walgraves key to give to the Alchemist and was poisoned for his troubles)?

 

[DYB]

1. Wow, Jaime's deal with Edmure is pretty harsh, well, harsh if he fails to deliver Riverrun. Do you think he would actually sacrifice a child in this siege? Both he and Cersei seem to be constantly wondering what would Tywin do (WWTD).

It's hard to say with Jaime if this is something he would have done. I'm going to guess that no. He would have come up with some sort of compromise. At least the new Jaime would have. Could there still be some of the old Jaime in there somewhere?

BTW, I love WWTD! They are both obsessed by him, especially Cersei. It's interesting because Tywin certainly didn't show much respect or affection for her. I thought his insistence that she marry again would make her hate him. But all she wants to do is please her father. While also convincing herself that she's smarter than he was. Very Oedipal that relationship. Of course with Cersei an actual sexual jealousy of Tywin is not out of the question.

We also know so little about Tywin and his life. All we know of him is what other people think and say.

2. Cersei's plan against Margarey is coming to fruition. At this point, did you think she played Margarey or was Cersei being played by Taena Merryweather and Margarey?

You think Taena and Margaery are working together? Hmm... I've said this before, but I can't imagine their plan to bring down Cersei would involve publicly accusing Margaery herself of sleeping around. But maybe Margaery is that fearless! Taena is definitely playing something; but it's impossible to say at this point what it is. Is she out for herself or is she loyal to someone?

3. Arianne was supposed to marry Viserys. How could Prince Doran have conceived and followed through with this plan? Who was he working with in Tyrosh? What is his new plan?

Well, it seems as if Prince Doran isn't entirely useless. Whatever his plan is it is very long term. And that's the danger. He was foolish to expect everyone to just do as he said without telling them what his plan is. Keeping his cards that close to his chest can only result in disaster, as it obviously has. He needed to have trusted some members of his family. He's as much to blame for what's happened with Myrcella as Arianne is.

Who is he working with? Well, there appears to be a wide-reaching conspiracy to remove the Lannisters from power and return the Targaryens to the Iron Throne. Ellyrio must be in on it? But Dany knows nothing about it. Ser Jorah doesn't either. And if they don't know anything about it - who's left? Can it be a conspiracy involving Dany and no one has told Dany? I doubt it. So who else is out there? If Prince Doran didn't intend that son who was sent away to take over Dorn...what was he being groomed for? I have a conspiracy theory percolating in my brain about this mysterious "brother" destined for a throne that's not Dorn...

4. Sansa has matured greatly from the self-centered frilly girl that left Winterfell. Can she carry through Petyr's plan to marry her to the line of Arryn and retake the North?

Yes, she's grown, though I still feel like we understand so little of her thinking. And that may be because we know nothing about Petyr's thinking. We know he says his plan is to reestablish the Starks, but we can't trust him. And considering that Littlefinger was the one who started the avalanche against the Starks when he betrayed Ned when he needed to secure the Gold Cloaks - what is he doing? For whose benefit really? It's not the Starks'. In the end the only interest he has is his own. Does he think he will be King? Ha!

5. So, Lady Catelyn is leading what remains of the Brotherhood without Banners. What word could Brienne have screamed? Will it save her? Is Lady Stoneheart justified in her ruthlessness?

I certainly understand Lady Stonehart's ruthlesness. I'd feel the same way she does. But she's blinded by the fury as well. Brienne is one of the few friends she truly has, but she can't see it. In many ways her way is very short-sighted. She thinks she will get her revenge by just hanging all these footsoldiers? Big whoop. She's not likely to get her hands on Lord Frey or Roose Bolton. Her Brotherhood is so small and their plans are so "petty" that they won't make any big changes. But they will just keep hanging footsoldiers.

My guess is Brienne said... "Okay!" Or something to that effect. She doesn't want Pod to die so she's agreeing to Catelyn's demand. I don't know why Martin is so dramatic about it!

6. Wow, at a stroke Cersei is virtually deposed and the Regency of the realm is at stake. Lord and Lady Merryweather have fled, Aurane Waters absconded with the Navy, and Cersei's small council has shed members loyal to her. What is the likely outcome of this trial?

And Cersei's life and plans collapse. And it's all 100% of her own making. It's funny that she's glad Lady Merryweather managed to flee! What could be the outcome of the trial... Hmm... I'd love if it was death, frankly. Exile? Imprisonment? Margaery is also going to be on trial, yes? What about her verdict?

7. Interesting, Jeyne Westerling's mother was a Spicer, and her grandmother was a "half-mad witch woman from the East". I wonder if she was Maggy the Frog who tormented Cersei?

I missed that whole part. It seems pretty obvious that Jeyne is not pregnant. Her mother has made sure of it too. So no Robb heir. It's interesting that Jeyne is so defiant in her love for Robb. Will that make her a player in the future? To avenge her husband's death?

8. Ser Dermont mentions large packs of wolves, including a "she-wolf of monstrous size. A direwolf, to hear him tell it." Nymeria, perhaps? Jamie wonders the same thing.

Oh yes, Nymeria! Who else? I have high hopes for Nymeria!!

9. And Jaime ignores the summons from Cersei. I feel like his transformation from the dark side to the light is complete Would he have ignored it if he knew the full extent of the problems in King's Landing?

I don't think he would have gone back to King's Landing even if he knew the extent of Cersei's problems. And the Kingdom's. I think he'd just let things play out. Though he might be concerned about Tommen.

10. The Maesters want to remove magic from the world, it seems (most of them, anyway). Does this cloud your perception of how Maesters have acted in the series? Maester Luwin? Pycelle? Why would Alleras give the name of Pate (remember in the prologue, Pate was the novice who stole Walgraves key to give to the Alchemist and was poisoned for his troubles)?

Interesting development. It doesn't change my thoughts about Ludwin. Or Pycelle - he's just evil in general and more interested in his own comforts, not the Citadel's dogma. The whole thing with Pate is confusing to me because that Prologue didn't make much of an impact. I knew Pate was killed, so someone is obviously impersonating him, right?

I think I might go ahead and start reading "Dance of the Dragons." It's strange that this book has made me want to move on to the next one right away, whereas the previous ones I was glad to take a break after.

 

[jason10mm]

People seemed to know Alleras and Pate, so not sure how one could impersonate the other. I wonder if poor Sam is being set-up from the very beginning. Seems clear to me that some sort of internal revolt is happening with the Maesters. Either the key theft in the beginning was one maester stealing it from another, or there is an outside group (who?) trying to infiltrate Oldtown. Maybe that was how Victarion's brother (Crow Eye? I'm blanking on it) REALLY got that horn, he stole it??

There is a new e-book from Tower of the Hand with several essays that probably go deep into various theories and themes of ASOIAF. Might be worth checking out if anyone is interested in diving deeper. I've not read it by some podcasts have talked about it. Feel free to move on the ADWD, those questions already exist. I'll probably do a re-read myself in the Spring, for now I'm gonna take a ASOIAF sabbatical, I think we have done all 5 books in what, 15 months? Still gotta finish up the Dunk and Egg stories as well....

 

[VondaZ]

People seemed to know Alleras and Pate, so not sure how one could impersonate the other.

I have a bunch of errands to run today and I will try to answer all the questions as soon as I can, but I wanted to chime in on the whole Pate thing. I just assumed as soon as he showed up in that last question that Pate was killed by a Faceless man and that Faceless man was now impersonating Pate with a key to the entire place. I don't know why he is doing this and who - if anyone - he is in league with, but I just assumed that was the case. It never occurred to me that he might not look like Pate at all and that everyone was just in on a conspiracy to play Sam (not that I think Sam can trust anyone). If he didn't actually look like Pate, everyone who saw him would have to be in on the conspiracy - which seems like way too big a stretch and to what end?

I even wondered if it could be Jaquen H'qar or Syrio.

 

[VondaZ]

1. Wow, Jaime's deal with Edmure is pretty harsh, well, harsh if he fails to deliver Riverrun. Do you think he would actually sacrifice a child in this siege? Both he and Cersei seem to be constantly wondering what would Tywin do (WWTD).

Well, he did drop Bran from a window when this all began, so he is potentially capable of it. But he did that for love when he was a man who only cared about that love. Now he is something else. I am thinking that he knows he can make Edmure believe he will do it and that is enough. He doesn't actually have to do the deed this time.

They do like to think that they can be a worthy successor to Tywin, but neither one is made of that metal. I am always wondering what Tyrion would do. But then again, the aunt claims that Tyrion is Tywin's true son, so maybe that is the same thing.

2. Cersei's plan against Margarey is coming to fruition. At this point, did you think she played Margarey or was Cersei being played by Taena Merryweather and Margarey?

I, of course, think Cersei is being played by Margaery and Taena as well. I can only guess that they were working together, although it is possible Taena had separate motivations. But the way this all unfolds, someone has spun a pretty tight web and it wasn't Cersei.

3. Arianne was supposed to marry Viserys. How could Prince Doran have conceived and followed through with this plan? Who was he working with in Tyrosh? What is his new plan?

The only one Doran could have been working with (assuming it is a character we already know) is Ilyrio. Jorah was originally planning to betray Dany and Viserys for a pardon, so he could not have been communicating with Doran. Arianne doesn't know how lucky she is that this plan fell apart. If Arys was to her liking, she would have despised Viserys.

Since there is only one Targaryan left, I am guessing that Doran has shifted his sights to Danaerys as a match for Quentyn. He intends Quentyn to rule alongside Dany and he has promised Arianne that she will still inherit Dorne. So, if that is the case, we will have at least three people after Dany's hand - Victarion, Euron, and Quentyn. Somehow, I doubt any of them are up to the task, but we will see. Quentyn may have an advantage if he is working with Ilyrio, since Dany has used Ilyrio's resources to fund her army - but then again, Ilyrio hasn't managed to control her a single bit - assuming he actually intended to.

4. Sansa has matured greatly from the self-centered frilly girl that left Winterfell. Can she carry through Petyr's plan to marry her to the line of Arryn and retake the North?

I found this plan interesting because it really truly was a good deal for Sansa. However, it would seem to have little impact on Petyr. But everything Petyr does somehow benefits him in the end, so what is his angle here. One would think that he is truly working for Sansa, but I can't seem to swallow that.

Sansa's growth seems to have come from having to care for someone else for a change. We don't get to see a whole lot of insight into Sansa, but we see a whole lot of her taking care of Robert. He is by all accounts insufferable, but she is good and kind to him even when he grosses her out. She has learned how to handle him and keep him calm and he has shifted his attachment from his mother to her. So, while I was waiting this entire series for Sansa to finally step up and take care of herself instead of waiting for someone else to do something for her, now we finally see her stepping up to look out for someone else. She has gone from the victim to the protector, and maybe that will give her the strength to stand up for herself eventually. At any rate, she is no longer waiting to be rescued and is in fact doing a little rescuing herself.

The irony is that Petyr's plan relies on Robert's death. I know he is sickly, but somehow I doubt that Petyr is going to just wait around and wait for nature to take its course. And I don't know how Sansa will feel about that.

5. So, Lady Catelyn is leading what remains of the Brotherhood without Banners. What word could Brienne have screamed? Will it save her? Is Lady Stoneheart justified in her ruthlessness?

The Brotherhood has suffered a huge loss when Beric sacrificed himself for Catelyn. Beric was fighting for something - to protect the innocent small folk. Catelyn has returned as an empty something with only a single drive for revenge that she will take whereever she finds it without mercy. She seems to assume the worse of everyone and judge them guilty without a thought. I don't see any justification in this. And unfortunately, the boys/men who are following her don't do much thinking for themselves.

I have no idea what word Brienne could have screamed to make any difference. I can't see Catelyn being affected by anything she could say. I would sure like to know what other's speculate, though.

6. Wow, at a stroke Cersei is virtually deposed and the Regency of the realm is at stake. Lord and Lady Merryweather have fled, Aurane Waters absconded with the Navy, and Cersei's small council has shed members loyal to her. What is the likely outcome of this trial?

Well, things really look dark for Cersei now. At this point, the likely outcome would be that Cersei will meet the fate that she was trying to impose on Margaery. Of course, that probably won't happen in the end, but I am glad it ended that way because I enjoy leaving Cersei in this predicament for a while.

So here is my question: the septas apparently have confirmed that Margaery and the cousins were not virgins. Were they in Cersei's pocket? I thought she arranged for the septons to handle this so there could be no claim of impartiality. Or, did the septas actually come out with this information despite Cersei? I sincerely doubt that these results just happened to come out in Cersei's favor. Did the Tyrells arrange for the septas to say this to set Cersei up?

And what about Pycelle. He told Cersei that he was giving Margaery moon tea. But I don't buy it. No one was ever able to seduce her and no one was able to catch her with a lover - I don't think there was one. And now Pycelle is on the council plotting away while Cersei is imprisoned. So I can only guess that Pycelle was working with the Tyrells?

The funny thing about what happened to Cersei is that her downfall was all over nothing. The other players in the Game of Thrones all met their ends plotting some sort of greatness - ruling the realm, protecting it, etc. But Cersei was battling her own allies out of simple jealousy. The marriage to Margaery was meant to foster a political alliance, but Cersei would have no friends - indeed considers those who should be her friends as enemies standing in her way. If she had joined forces with Margaery, she could have moved on to greater things. Tommen would have likely grown to be a good husband one day and Margaery has the ability to win the devotion of the people, which Cersei could have used. Now, in this current mess, the people are behind Margaery and Cersei stands alone.

7. Interesting, Jeyne Westerling's mother was a Spicer, and her grandmother was a "half-mad witch woman from the East". I wonder if she was Maggy the Frog who tormented Cersei?

I completely missed this reference. It would be funny if Jeyne had turned out to be the queen that would replace Cersei and not Margaery. Of course, with Robb dead, that will never be the case.

8. Ser Dermont mentions large packs of wolves, including a "she-wolf of monstrous size. A direwolf, to hear him tell it." Nymeria, perhaps? Jamie wonders the same thing.

Yes - I never forget that Nymeria is out there somewhere. I guess it will be a long while before there is an Arya/Nymeria reunion.

9. And Jaime ignores the summons from Cersei. I feel like his transformation from the dark side to the light is complete Would he have ignored it if he knew the full extent of the problems in King's Landing?

I don't care, I was just so thrilled that he finally has cast the Cersei monkey off his back. She thinks she can treat him like crap but then just beg for his help and it will all be forgotten - like her actions have no consequences.

10. The Maesters want to remove magic from the world, it seems (most of them, anyway). Does this cloud your perception of how Maesters have acted in the series? Maester Luwin? Pycelle? Why would Alleras give the name of Pate (remember in the prologue, Pate was the novice who stole Walgraves key to give to the Alchemist and was poisoned for his troubles)?

It seems like the Maesters always poo-pooed the more magical elements of the realm. We seemed to get that a lot when the nannies would tell the old stories and the maesters would discredit them.

And regarding Pate, like I said before, I assume he has been replaced by a faceless man - perhaps Jaquen H'gar or Syrio (if he is a faceless man). And I went back and re-read the prologue to remind me of who Allerio was and I found this at the end of the prologue: Pate asks to see the man's face and he doesn't recognize him so he asks who he is and the man replies: "A stranger. No one. Truly." That meant nothing to me the first time, but after Arya repeating over and over that she is "No one," I am fairly certain that this new Pate is a faceless man.

 

[jason10mm]

The virgin thing harkens back to the thought that riding a horse could break a young woman's hymen, thus they wouldn't be a "virgin" even though they were chaste. Obviously these days there is not a whole lot of scientific inquiry into whether or not this occurs. Any equestrian girls out there who can confirm this? Of course this could have been a clever myth even back centuries ago to explain why so called "high birth" girls weren't virgins to covertly mask their indiscretions. I'm surprised to see Pycelle break from the Lannister/Cersei camp. Tyrell money must be too good, or he sees Cersei as a sinking ship and he is jumping to another.

I have a feeling this level of clumsy plotting wouldnt have happened if Varys was still around. I think he did a lot of behind the scenes squashing of things in the interest of stability.

 

[DYB]

Vonda did a nicer summation of what I think the problem with Cately and the Brotherhood is.  Lord Beric fought for something; Catelyn is just out to avenge herself.  But against whom?  A few irrelevant footsoldiers?  Big whoop.  Now if she managed to hang Lord Frey - then we'd be in business.  She's wasting her immortality, such as it is.

And yes, ditto on Littlefinger and Sansa.  What's in it for Littlefinger?  There is definitely something to that plan he's not telling Sansa and it'll probably not make her happy.  Maybe she'll figure it out and bring down Littlefinger?  That'd be nice!

Is Pycelle really working against Cersei?  He claimed earlier that he always remained in the service of the Lannisters, though he might only have meant Tywin.  Is he really so ballsy as to work against Cersei now?  His interests must be only to himself; I can't imagine that man having any kind of selfless devotions. 

Margaery did ride horses a lot!    And Vonda had a nice point about Cersei destroying herself - over what?  Paranoia over a prophecy and selfishness?  Pathetic.

And I also assumed the Pate who introduces himself to Sam at the end is a Faceless Man, the one who killed Pate in the Prologue.  It'd be nice if it was Jaquen H'gar.  Who was also Syrio!  But that might just be wishful thinking.    But it does bring up a question about Jaquen: what was he doing at King's Landing?  How did he end up imprisoned?  Doesn't sound like a Faceless Man sort of thing to happen, unless being imprisoned was the plan all along.  So what was his mission there 

 

[VondaZ]

Is Pycelle really working against Cersei? He claimed earlier that he always remained in the service of the Lannisters, though he might only have meant Tywin. Is he really so ballsy as to work against Cersei now? His interests must be only to himself; I can't imagine that man having any kind of selfless devotions.

I think he really is working against her. I don't think he intended to, but Cersei drove him to it. Another case of Cersei thinking she doesn't need anyone and treating them like garbage and expecting them to be around when she does need them. She basically replaced him with the quack Qyburn, which had to hurt, and then she started doing crazy things like plotting against Margaery. And Pycelle may have curated some sort of loyalty or affection for Margaery. He did seem hesitant to tell Cersei that he had been giving Margaery moon tea - perhaps because he still had some feelings of loyalty to Cersei (assuming telling her this was part of the plot against her) and he had some misgivings about plotting against her (or he really was giving her moon tea and he didn't want to betray Margaery - which was the way it appeared, but I am not sure the way it actually is).

But it does bring up a question about Jaquen: what was he doing at King's Landing? How did he end up imprisoned? Doesn't sound like a Faceless Man sort of thing to happen, unless being imprisoned was the plan all along. So what was his mission there

I suppose, if he was Syrio, Syrio may have allowed himself to get arrested to save his life and then transformed into Jaqen H'gar (or transformed into Jaqen to get away and then gotten arrested in the melee). I'm not saying they are the same person, but if they are, that might explain it.

 

[DYB]

she started doing crazy things like plotting against Margaery. And Pycelle may have curated some sort of loyalty or affection for Margaery. He did seem hesitant to tell Cersei that he had been giving Margaery moon tea - perhaps because he still had some feelings of loyalty to Cersei (assuming telling her this was part of the plot against her) and he had some misgivings about plotting against her (or he really was giving her moon tea and he didn't want to betray Margaery - which was the way it appeared, but I am not sure the way it actually is).

If Margaery needed Moon Tea - would she have gone to Pycelle for it? I mean, if she really needed something very sensitive like that, something that would ruin her reputation and end her life if it were known - would she have gone to a complete stranger like Pycelle, whom Cersei knows very well, and of whose loyalty Margaery knows nothing? Wouldn't she use someone she knows instead? This would back up the theory that Pycelle was part of the conspiracy against Cersei. If Margaery did go to Pycelle for something so sensitive, she would probably have been smart enough to have a friend/maid ask for it, and then drink it herself. The more I think about it the more it seems improbable that she'd ask Pycelle's help with something like that...

 

[VondaZ]

If Margaery needed Moon Tea - would she have gone to Pycelle for it?

I didn't think of it from that perspective before - but agreed. This was a plot - Margaery could have gotten moon tea from a more trusted source if she needed it. Pycelle was in on the plot to setup Cersei for setting up Margaery.

 

[jason10mm]

You guys are right, I would imagine the Tyrells would have several Maesters in their employ and she could have used one of them. The system is a bit vague but I gotta think there is more than one per castle/household for some of the larger, more powerful Houses. Though the Starks only had one, Pycelle was the only one at King's Landing (or did they replace him with another guy just standing around?) and a Lannister Maester I don't think is even mentioned. I don't think even someone as young as Margarey would fall for the patient/physician convenant that is so easily broken.

Or maybe there is another use for moon tea. Perhaps it eases menstrual cramping? I bet there are some real world analogues to it, I'll have to check.

The problem with the "Pate replaced by faceless man" theory is that Alleras is a different person, he just gives the name Pate to Sam. Several other people seem to recognize Alleras so clearly whoever he is, he looks like Alleras at the very least, not Pate. I'm guessing that Alleras is giving the name Pate to Sam so if Sam were to go to the legitimate head of the Maesters (remember, he intercepted Sam before he could speak to anyone of authority) Sam wouldn't be able to give him away. I don't know, it is confusing. I don't think this section of the story gets much critical attention so I"m not sure if one of the major sites has puzzled it out yet.

 

[VondaZ]

The problem with the "Pate replaced by faceless man" theory is that Alleras is a different person, he just gives the name Pate to Sam. Several other people seem to recognize Alleras so clearly whoever he is, he looks like Alleras at the very least, not Pate. I'm guessing that Alleras is giving the name Pate to Sam so if Sam were to go to the legitimate head of the Maesters (remember, he intercepted Sam before he could speak to anyone of authority) Sam wouldn't be able to give him away. I don't know, it is confusing. I don't think this section of the story gets much critical attention so I"m not sure if one of the major sites has puzzled it out yet.

Are you saying that it was Alleras who said, "I'm Pate," the other said, "like the pig boy."? Because if so, I read that chapter completely differently. There were four people in the room in that chapter: Sam, Walgrave, Alleras, and a pasty-faced novice. I believe it was the pasty-faced novice who identified himself as Pate, not Alleras.

Martin describes "the other man in the room" as "a pale, fleshy, pasty-faced young fellow with round shoulders, soft hands, close-set eyes, and food stains on his robes." This is not Alleras, as he writes a short space later, "Sam hesitated a moment, then told his tale again as Marwyn, Alleras, and the other novice listened."

At the end, Sam is talking to this other novice, as he is frequently described as pasty or pale, whereas Alleras never was. Moreover, Sam doesn't like him - but he clearly seemed to trust Alleras.

So, I think that this other novice is the Faceless man masquerading as Pate. Whether or not Alleras and/or Marwyn are aware it is not Pate, I don't know.

 

[DYB]

I need to re-read the Prologue and the last chapter again.  But I also thought that the person who introduced himself as Pate was a different individual than the one Sam met earlier.

 

[jason10mm]

Ah, you guys are right. The novice says he is Pate, and the "like the pig-boy" line is a reference to the Spotted Pate mythic character. Well, that clears up a lot! I'm now in ya'll's "it's a Faceless Man" camp. But what could he want? I gotta think one of the major players is using him. Perhaps Littlefinger or Varys? Tyrion? Most of the rest of the characters can barely even spell Oldtown, much less care what the Maesters do there, but these three I can see being concerned about what they are up to and might have the resources needed to engage a faceless man (or perhaps Pate didn't die, he just got ruffied and doesn't remember stealing the key).

 

[VondaZ]

I could see Varys being mixed up in this. The whole absence of Varys seems very odd. The fact that he would rescue Tyrion on behalf of Jaime makes sense, but to do it in a way in which he completely disappears afterwards does not. He has always been behind the scenes pulling strings for everyone but never completely allied with anyone. This disappearance takes him off the canvas and seems to place him in league with Tyrion. I'd love to know what he actually is up to. Is he still with Tyrion or is he doing his own thing off stage and in either case, is he plotting in Old Town? What else could he be mixed up in?

 

[jason10mm]

I can see him lying low for a while in the wake of Cersei's wrath over the release of Tyrion. ESPECIALLY since Tyrion offed Tywin, though I am starting to buy into the "Tywin was poisoned" camp given the mention that the Tears of Lys bind up the guts and make the person rot, both of which happened to Tywin. Maybe Shae seduced Tywin and then poisoned him to free Tyrion? Wouldn't THAT be delicious

Anyway, I doubt Varys is far away. Heck, he many be masquerading as someone else already.

 

[DYB]

Varys' absence certainly makes him look guilty.  I like the idea that he's already on the scene in disguise.  But a disguise would have to be so good that it won't be noticed in the daytime.  I think he's in hiding, waiting for a chance to return.  And make a splash.  But more importantly, it would have to be a return that would demonstrate his loyalty and show that he played no part in Tywin's death.  Otherwise they'd chop his head off before he could explain himself.

Who is in charge of the Kingdom now?  If Cersei is arrested, the Council is falling apart - and Tommen is a child - who's running the Kingdom?  Who will they summon?  Ser Kevan?  Jaime?  Anyone else?  But who will make that decision?  Will they reach out to the Tyrrells?

Interesting idea about Tywin being poisoned before he was killed by Tyrion.  And Shae could do it.  But I don't see how she could have meant to free Tyrion that way.  It may have just been meant as revenge on her part.  If she's that noble.  GRRM did make a lot of stink about Tywin's stink.  So maybe there's something to it.  Killed twice in one day; and then laughed at as he lay in the sept rotting.  Almost makes one feel bad for him!  (Almost).

 

[VondaZ]

I am starting to buy into the "Tywin was poisoned" camp given the mention that the Tears of Lys bind up the guts and make the person rot, both of which happened to Tywin. Maybe Shae seduced Tywin and then poisoned him to free Tyrion? Wouldn't THAT be delicious

I never even considered this and didn't pick up on any of those clues. I'm not sure if I want it to be true or not. So ironic - Tyrion kills Shae for betraying him with his father when she was actually avenging him. So tragic, though. Tyrion finally found someone who cared for him and he kills her in his rage. On the one hand, nice that Shae really did care for him. On the other hand, now Tyrion has a whole lot more baggage to carry around with him. It kind of mirrors the lie that Jamie told him about his "wife" and the truth that he didn't know.

I was wondering what all that stuff was about regarding Tywin's stink. Reminded me of something I read a long time ago, but I can't remember what - if it was a true story or a work of fiction. Something about a holy man who died and there was a big scandal because his body reaked when saints were supposed to smell pristine when they died. I kept getting distracted trying to remember where I had read that and never came up with any relevance for it in this book. After all, with all the corpses that pile up in this series, should it be any surprise that this one stinks? Its not like anyone ever believed Tywin was a saint.

 

[DYB]

Yes, if Tyrion kills Shae even as she was avenging him - that's a lot of baggage for him!  He's already obsessed with Tysha.  Now, would this be something else Varys didn't know about?  Or did he know about it?  Did he put Shae up to it??  And then stood by as Tyrion went to his father's chambers, knowing who Tyrion would find there...  Oh that Varys!  He's capable of anything! 


I'm half-way through "A Dance with Dragons."  Maybe I'll post some comments on those threads.  I must say, overall I think I prefer AFFC.  The Daenerys sections really drag ADWD down.  What was GRRM thinking!    But there are a couple of delicious moments of vengeance for other characters... 

 

[VondaZ]

I think I am going to wait until the end of March to read Dances with Dragons. That is when the paperback comes out and I suspect the kindle edition might drop at that time. Not that I wouldn't pay $15, but it has been at that price forever and a few more months isn't that long to wait. I was kind of hoping by the time I had gotten this far, DWD would have dropped a little in price and there would be a new book out.

I kind of want to read the novella that the Outer Limits story "The Sand Kings" was based on. Does anyone know which GRRM anthology that story was published in?