[jason10mm]

Looks like "Sandkings" is in Dreamsongs vol I (going by the table of contents posted on amazon). It for sure isn't in Dreamsongs Vol II, that is the one with "The Hedge Knight" and I have it.

 

[PinkKindle]

Are you saying that it was Alleras who said, "I'm Pate," the other said, "like the pig boy."? Because if so, I read that chapter completely differently. There were four people in the room in that chapter: Sam, Walgrave, Alleras, and a pasty-faced novice. I believe it was the pasty-faced novice who identified himself as Pate, not Alleras.

Martin describes "the other man in the room" as "a pale, fleshy, pasty-faced young fellow with round shoulders, soft hands, close-set eyes, and food stains on his robes." This is not Alleras, as he writes a short space later, "Sam hesitated a moment, then told his tale again as Marwyn, Alleras, and the other novice listened."

At the end, Sam is talking to this other novice, as he is frequently described as pasty or pale, whereas Alleras never was. Moreover, Sam doesn't like him - but he clearly seemed to trust Alleras.

So, I think that this other novice is the Faceless man masquerading as Pate. Whether or not Alleras and/or Marwyn are aware it is not Pate, I don't know.

I am not sure if/why this is significant, but I remember reading it on another site, so I thought I'd mention it here.

Several times throughout the Dorne chapters, and even going back to earlier books when the Sand Snakes (Oberyn's daughters) are mentioned, it talks about one sister who is not present in Dorne because she's gone off study in to Oldtown. Now, I'm pretty sure girls can't become Maesters, so if she was studying to be a Maester, she'd have to be in disguise. The sister's name is Sarella -- which spelled backwards is Alleras.

 

[VondaZ]

Looks like "Sandkings" is in Dreamsongs vol I (going by the table of contents posted on amazon). It for sure isn't in Dreamsongs Vol II, that is the one with "The Hedge Knight" and I have it.

Thanks!

 

[VondaZ]

Several times throughout the Dorne chapters, and even going back to earlier books when the Sand Snakes (Oberyn's daughters) are mentioned, it talks about one sister who is not present in Dorne because she's gone off study in to Oldtown. Now, I'm pretty sure girls can't become Maesters, so if she was studying to be a Maester, she'd have to be in disguise. The sister's name is Sarella -- which spelled backwards is Alleras.

Now I will have to do a search on the name Sarella because I don't remember her at all. It seems that every little tidbit has relevance somehow but there is just so much going on that I can't remember or keep track of it all.

 

[PinkKindle]

I did a quick name search myself, and I do see that Sarella is briefly mentioned several times and stated to be not present in Dorne and playing some kind of "game," but I didn't find the Oldtown mention that I remembered, so I figured it probably wasn't directly associated with her name. So I did a google search and found where I had read about it:

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2010/08/24_if_its_chains_you_want_/index.html

This essay covers the Sarella thing very thoroughly and also discusses about Pate and the Faceless Man theory -- it's pretty interesting.

 

[DYB]

Huh, interesting about Sarella/Alleras!  There are layers within layers!

 

[jason10mm]

Once again, the prologue chapter proves more interesting than half the book I'll have to reread the Alleras stuff again....done. The physical description is certainly suggestive. From the last chapter..."the speaker [Alleras] was a slim, slight, comely youth...skin the color of a light brown ale and a cap of tight black curls that came to a widows peak above his big black eyes." Yeah, that is definitely a chick While we have seen fairly effeminent youths before (Loras comes to mind) in the retrospectoscope the Sarella/Alleras connection seems pretty obvious

Once again the Martells show up in odd places, as if Doran Martell is playing his own game of thrones.

 

[DYB]

The physical description is certainly suggestive. From the last chapter..."the speaker [Alleras] was a slim, slight, comely youth...skin the color of a light brown ale and a cap of tight black curls that came to a widows peak above his big black eyes."

Once again the Martells show up in odd places, as if Doran Martell is playing his own game of thrones.

Well, the widow's peak feature is all we need to know! I just read a Martell chapter in ADWD and we are reminded several times that the Red Viper had a pronounced widow's peak and so do a few of the Snakes.

So now the question is: why are the Martells infiltrating the Maesters?

 

[VondaZ]

And yet another example of a woman trying to compete in a role traditionally held by a man.

 

[PinkKindle]

Well, the widow's peak feature is all we need to know! I just read a Martell chapter in ADWD and we are reminded several times that the Red Viper had a pronounced widow's peak and so do a few of the Snakes.

So now the question is: why are the Martells infiltrating the Maesters?

It also says in the index that her mother was a trader captain from the Summer Isles, which would account for the dark skin and tight curly hair.

I hadn't really thought of it as the Martells infiltrating the maesters -- I figured that Sarella just wanted to be a maester, so she packed some boy clothes and off she went! -- but it does make sense as a political move, though. All noble houses have maesters, right? So if you wanted to infiltrate a noble house and maybe become a political adviser to a lord, or even just a spy . . . well, this would be a pretty good way to do it! If an acknowledged noble son became a maester, he probably wouldn't be accepted into a household other than those loyal to his family, but no one knows who "Arellas" is, so she could probably go anywhere!

That would have to be a pretty long-term plan -- which makes sense for Doran Martell, since that's his style, so maybe he does have a plan like that! However, in the shorter term, I think the fact that of all novices who are probably currently studying there, the fact that she is who Sam meets right away means that she will play a part in whatever happens next in his story line. Surely Doran couldn't have planned that in advance -- but who knows!

 

[VondaZ]

I read the link you posted and the one of the quotes listed has Doran Martell saying, "Leave her to her game."

The fact that he refers to what she is doing as a "game" would imply he doesn't take it too seriously, so I am not sure if this started out as part of his plan - but it could certainly work itself into his plan. Maybe it was Oberyn who had a plan? Then again, the sand snakes all seem to have a mind and will of their own.

 

[jason10mm]

My guess is that she is doing it on her own, "just 'cause". I don't know how old she is, but it seems like she is still a teenager, so presumably the male guise will become harder and harder to pull off in time.

But what it DOES do is put Sam, and by proxy JON, in communication with the Martells. I can see this being the conduit for Doran learning about the Others and such (maybe even puzzling out Jon's parentage if he hasn't already) and incorporating it into his "bring back the Targaryens" plan. If nothing else, we now know Jon might be getting a widowed peaked Maester for the Watch and get seduced, Ygritte style

 

[VondaZ]

If nothing else, we now know Jon might be getting a widowed peaked Maester for the Watch and get seduced, Ygritte style

You think she will end up on the wall? I was thinking that Aemon said Dany needs a maester to guide her and that she might end up with her. Especially since her family seems to have connections with Dany (through Ilyrio?). Also, with Alleras seeming to be sympathetic to dragons and magic whereas the rest of the citadel seems to be in opposition to it.

 

[jason10mm]

Alleras is hooked up with Sam now, which means he/she will hear all about the Others, the wights, and that stuff. I don't think Alleras, or Doran Martell, if she is communicating with him, will take that threat as lightly as the rest of southern Westeros, thus it seems likely she will travel to the North. I think the older Maester they met is the one heading to Dany.