[AssanaBanana]

On the contrary! I suspect that those authors have a better grasp on what their list is worth to them. They don't want to flood their subscribers with constant advertisements that'd make the readers wary of ever opening another mail from them. But if there's someone that really wants to use their list, then they'll have to pay up. Remember you're not in the advertising business, you're a writer and your fans are much more valuable to you than a promo list. So if you're going to risk p*ss ing them off with an ad, it should be worth it.

Not exactly. The original pricing schemes for Bookclicker members' swap fees was based loosely on what authors were paying Facebook per ad click. They thought, "Hey, if FB can charge ME $0.20 per click, surely clicks on my newsletter are worth that much!" And then they arbitrarily decided their newsletter clicks were actually worth that much. Without having any real data (i.e. sales numbers) to back that up. There were some conflicts that occurred as a result. Authors agreed to pay for clicks, got what they paid for, then balked when they realized that those clicks didn't actually translate into an appreciable number of sales.

Any author who has paid for newsletter promo services like Bookbub and the smaller counterparts pays attention (or they should) to how much they EARN from their promos. This is why I stopped paying for those newsletter promos (except for Bookbub). At the very least, I expect a 100% ROI or I simply won't use them again. It's bad business if I'm not making my money back on an advertising investment. I'll try it ONCE but if it doesn't pay off, I won't try it again, and most of these lists can't guarantee a return the way Bookbub can. Even Bookbub's promos aren't guaranteed, but they have enough data to back up what they charge and most of the features I've booked with them HAVE paid off in spades.

 

[Guest]

For example, I've done regular swaps outside Bookclicker with one of the authors who is signed up for it now. The author's list is comparable in size to mine (around 15k subscribers) so it's a pretty even swap for us. Their Bookclicker rate for a solo spot is set to $100. That charge is the equivalent of what Bookbub charges for a list more than 10x that size (I did some napkin math and a list my size in my genre would be worth under $10 per feature based on Bookbub's numbers).

Huh? Those prices might be inflated but comparing prices to how much Bookbud charges is a really bad idea. Everyone is expensive compared to Bookbub. Bookbub is able to provide such a great deal because they're highly selective in who they choose to feature. They're providing a service to their readers. With them you're not just a customer, you're also a content provider.

 

[PhoenixS]

Huh? Those prices might be inflated but comparing prices to how much Bookbud charges is a really bad idea. Everyone is expensive compared to Bookbub. Bookbub is able to provide such a great deal because they're highly selective in who they choose to feature. They're providing a service to their readers. With them you're not just a customer, you're also a content provider.

Huh? In the real world of economics, what you've outlined about BookBub above leads to higher prices, not lower.

What you're also implying in your statement is that with these author NLs there's no vetting and what service there is has nothing to do with readers. That it's simply nothing more than a fairly passive revenue stream for authors who fly in the face of economics to charge high-brow restaurant prices for fast-food takeout. (There's a word for that which I won't use because it'll get this post modded.) Which I basically agree with that assessment, so thank you for validating.

 

[Guest]

Huh? In the real world of economics, what you've outlined about BookBub above leads to higher prices, not lower.

If both parties are mutually benefiting why would it lead to higher prices? The benefit wouldn't be mutual anymore!

Right now if Bookbub accepts your book you open your wallet and pay them even if it's your last dime. However, if Bookbub raised their prices significantly to the point where you're not guaranteed a good ROI (like with ANY other service) then less authors would bother submitting deals. Bookbub would no-longer have hundreds of great bargains to choose from and would either have very few deals to offer their readers, or they would just start accepting anyone willing to pay the exorbitant fees. That would severely reduce the quality of their newsletter.

What you're also implying in your statement is that with these author NLs there's no vetting and what service there is has nothing to do with readers. That it's simply nothing more than a fairly passive revenue stream for authors who fly in the face of economics to charge high-brow restaurant prices for fast-food takeout. (There's a word for that which I won't use because it'll get this post modded.) Which I basically agree with that assessment, so thank you for validating.

I wasn't defending these authors selling spots in their newsletters, they're obviously over-priced and it's not a service I have any interest in. But you should be comparing the prices to other popular newsletter services and make a more realistic comparison.

 

[AltMe]

That would severely reduce the quality of their newsletter.

The trouble is, its not.

I stopped getting the newsletter because after months, I never received anything to click on. It was all stuff I had no interest in, and old stuff I'd already read.

I want to know about new stuff in my genre, and BB doesn't deliver.

 

[AssanaBanana]

If both parties are mutually benefiting why would it lead to higher prices? The benefit wouldn't be mutual anymore!

Right now if Bookbub accepts your book you open your wallet and pay them even if it's your last dime. However, if Bookbub raised their prices significantly to the point where you're not guaranteed a good ROI (like with ANY other service) then less authors would bother submitting deals. Bookbub would no-longer have hundreds of great bargains to choose from and would either have very few deals to offer their readers, or they would just start accepting anyone willing to pay the exorbitant fees. That would severely reduce the quality of their newsletter.

I wasn't defending these authors selling spots in their newsletters, they're obviously over-priced and it's not a service I have any interest in. But you should be comparing the prices to other popular newsletter services and make a more realistic comparison.

Okay, for the sake of argument I did the comparison to MyRomanceReads which was my next favorite go-to for list-based promotion. They have a single list of about 65k and charge $90 for a spot for a $0.99 book (oddly they charge MORE for free books while Bookbub charges less). Based on their numbers (which aren't at all broken down by genre), a list my size (15k) would be worth ~$21 per send ($90/65k subscribers = ~$0.0014/email x 15k = ~$21). Still nothing close to what some of the Bookclicker authors are charging for much smaller lists.

But my point is that what many BC users don't seem to grasp is that ROI matters a LOT and the entire reason I prefer to swap over paying for these other promo services is because the ROI from anyone but Bookbub lately simply stinks.

Luckily a lot of BC authors are only doing swaps. As for the folks charging, I think seeing the prices for lists of equivalent sizes and being able to easily compare will eventually force those prices down unless the users can demonstrate that their lists provide an ROI worth the price they charge. Having all of them in one place will only make it easier for everyone to compare (for those authors who are willing to pay). For the rest it's really just a swap meet where we all bring our lists and see what we can get in exchange for what we have.

Regardless of who is doing what with their lists, the fact that I can SEE their list sizes, open/click rates, prices, links to their catalogs, and hopefully in the future some kind of profile that includes more information beyond simply genre, will make my job a whole lot easier when I'm trying to decide who is worthwhile to swap with. I love that all that information will be in one spot.

 

[MonkeyScribe]

Regardless of who is doing what with their lists, the fact that I can SEE their list sizes, open/click rates, prices, links to their catalogs, and hopefully in the future some kind of profile that includes more information beyond simply genre, will make my job a whole lot easier when I'm trying to decide who is worthwhile to swap with. I love that all that information will be in one spot.

When you go to BookClicker's signup form, and log in with your MailChimp account so as to verify the size of your list, you also give BookClicker full access to your list, including the ability to download all the names in your list, send them emails, or whatever. This is obviously a terrible, terrible idea, regardless of the motives of the people behind the site and feature.

 

[Monique]

When you go to BookClicker's signup form, and log in with your MailChimp account so as to verify the size of your list, you also give BookClicker full access to your list, including the ability to download all the names in your list, send them emails, or whatever. This is obviously a terrible, terrible idea, regardless of the motives of the people behind the site and feature.

Wow. Hell no.

 

[KMatthew]

A word of warning, the OP has already engaged in activities that violate CAN-SPAM and even admits as much, scraping emails from people who at one point or another joined the Bookclicker Ryver chat.

99 times out of 100, you input your email address into a field on anything online, it goes onto a list. When I joined, Chancer's Ryver group was by invitation only. Most of the top KUers in Romance are in that group and there's a lot to be learned there. If you're going to complain instead of just hitting unsubscribe like any normal person would do, then you don't deserve to be in there in the first place.

I'm now going to explain the economics of supply and demand. This is the same concept that has kept all the underperforming advertising companies afloat. It's the same concept that has kept KU afloat despite diminishing payouts to authors on page reads. People are still using these things. People are still accepting these prices.

I am one of the people who has a super expensive list on BookClicker. Originally, my prices were lower than most, but I was getting booked up. So I raised the price because I didn't want to clog up my newsletter with promos by other authors. Then I raised the price again. Then I raised it again. Now I have one of the more expensive lists on BookClicker, and you know what, I'm still booked solid.

For a lot of authors, especially authors in the top 100 on Amazon, using services like BookClicker and the other advertising sites isn't about getting a positive ROI on that particular ad. It's about getting enough people to buy or borrow their book to get it in the top 100 on Amazon or #1 spot in their category or accomplish some ranking goal that will kickstart organic reads and downloads. That is why people spend stupid amounts of money on this stuff--amounts that don't seem to make sense when you're looked at immediate ROI on an ad purchase.

Not everyone has the same business plan. I totally understand the people who are watching their finances and/or only care about positive ROI regardless of rank. As was already mentioned, not everyone can get a BookBub. For those who can, that is definitely a cheaper route. For those who can't, these are the routes they go to achieve the same results.

I'd also like to add that most of the people with really expensive lists on BookClicker are willing to swap.

 

[Phxsundog]

You mean a privilege to join a scammer Ryver group where you're taught to stuff books and spam readers every day? No thanks. Hey since this thread is back from the dead everybody should know David Gaughran did a great writeup on the Bookclicker scammers ruining romance. Buyer beware.

https://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2017/10/24/nanowrimo-writing-prompts-bad-boy-romance-edition/

*Note: this is my response to KMatthew who edited out the part of their post saying it's a privilege to be in a scammer group. It isn't. Chance Carter trained the ghostwriting publishers using scammy strategies who are destroying indie authors as we speak. He created Bookclicker to help them get more powerful and dupe real authors. These scammers are a mortal threat to everyone writing their own books. They want you buried or minimum wage slavewriting for them.

 

[MonkeyScribe]

You must not have ever signed up for anything in your life before, because 99 times out of 100, you input your email address into a field on anything online, it goes onto a list. Last I knew, Chancer's Ryver group was by invitation only. Most of the top KUers in Romance are in that group and there's a lot to be learned there. You being accepted is a privilege, and if you're going to complain instead of just hitting unsubscribe like any normal person would do, then you don't deserve to be in there in the first place.

99 out of a 100 may ask you for your email, but they don't generally ask for your password and access to your emails at the same time. When I sign up for this service, I'm giving them access to all of my hard-earned list of readers as well. All those emails can be downloaded, sent to without my permission, etc.

I wouldn't give my mother that kind of access, let alone someone I don't know in person. One bad move, and all my readers think I'm a spammer, or MailChimp shuts me down, or one of a hundred other bad things. May as well give these guys my KDP and PayPal while I'm at it.

Why not ask for a screen shot of your subscriber list count instead? That would satisfy the same verification that they're demanding and be a whole lot less sketchy sounding.

 

[AssanaBanana]

I pulled out of Bookclicker after a few months because it was simply too big a pain in the butt to use. It seemed like a good idea on paper, but ultimately didn't make my job easier - it made it more difficult. And I guess since I have no trouble getting Bookbub features I'll just stick to Bookbub and do my newsletter swaps the old fashioned way. Monetizing my list was never my goal - simply gaining visibility via swaps was all I was after, and I don't need Bookclicker to do that.

 

[Monique]

You mean a privilege to join a scammer Ryver group where you're taught to stuff books and spam readers every day? No thanks. Hey since this thread is back from the dead everybody should know David Gaughran did a great writeup on the Bookclicker scammers ruining romance. Buyer beware.

https://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2017/10/24/nanowrimo-writing-prompts-bad-boy-romance-edition/

This.

 

[Huldra]

99 out of a 100 may ask you for your email, but they don't generally ask for your password and access to your emails at the same time. When I sign up for this service, I'm giving them access to all of my hard-earned list of readers as well. All those emails can be downloaded, sent to without my permission, etc.

Wait... are you serious? Can they actually do that?

 

[MonkeyScribe]

Wait... are you serious? Can they actually do that?

If someone has your complete login information, they can do whatever you can do on the site. Among them are send out email campaigns and download a spreadsheet of all your subscribers. Maybe they'll do that, maybe not--it's supposedly being done to verify the size of your list--but I wouldn't recommend giving them the power.

 

[Crystal_]

99 times out of 100, you input your email address into a field on anything online, it goes onto a list. When I joined, Chancer's Ryver group was by invitation only. Most of the top KUers in Romance are in that group and there's a lot to be learned there. If you're going to complain instead of just hitting unsubscribe like any normal person would do, then you don't deserve to be in there in the first place.

Excuse me? I don't deserve to be in a group if I object to the organizer breaking SPAM laws? If there's anywhere breaking SPAM laws matters, it's a group dedicated to mailing lists.

I don't need to be on BC. I make six figures and can easily seek out swaps with other authors with established pen names. I'd like to think I'm well respected for consistently helping authors and pointing them towards writing quality books that will sell in many years (with proper marketing). I don't need BC. BC needs me. Doing scammy stuff chases away legitimate and experienced authors in favor of newbs and scammers.

If you want a great community, you need to cater to experienced authors.

 

[Sati_LRR]

99 times out of 100, you input your email address into a field on anything online, it goes onto a list. When I joined, Chancer's Ryver group was by invitation only. Most of the top KUers in Romance are in that group and there's a lot to be learned there. If you're going to complain instead of just hitting unsubscribe like any normal person would do, then you don't deserve to be in there in the first place.

I'm now going to explain the economics of supply and demand. This is the same concept that has kept all the underperforming advertising companies afloat. It's the same concept that has kept KU afloat despite diminishing payouts to authors on page reads. People are still using these things. People are still accepting these prices.

I am one of the people who has a super expensive list on BookClicker. Originally, my prices were lower than most, but I was getting booked up. So I raised the price because I didn't want to clog up my newsletter with promos by other authors. Then I raised the price again. Then I raised it again. Now I have one of the more expensive lists on BookClicker, and you know what, I'm still booked solid.

For a lot of authors, especially authors in the top 100 on Amazon, using services like BookClicker and the other advertising sites isn't about getting a positive ROI on that particular ad. It's about getting enough people to buy or borrow their book to get it in the top 100 on Amazon or #1 spot in their category or accomplish some ranking goal that will kickstart organic reads and downloads. That is why people spend stupid amounts of money on this stuff--amounts that don't seem to make sense when you're looked at immediate ROI on an ad purchase.

Not everyone has the same business plan. I totally understand the people who are watching their finances and/or only care about positive ROI regardless of rank. As was already mentioned, not everyone can get a BookBub. For those who can, that is definitely a cheaper route. For those who can't, these are the routes they go to achieve the same results.

I'd also like to add that most of the people with really expensive lists on BookClicker are willing to swap.

Did you even read my post? I was invited and part of both the Slack and then Ryver iterations of the Bookclicker group from the start before the website was even developed. My post had nothing to do with the recent allegations regarding the site and what the devs may or may not have access to behind the scenes.

What I objected to was my email, which was given to Chance during sign-up of Slack then later Ryver, being used and put onto a newsletter list without my permission and using that list to drum up business for the Bookclicker website and being spammed by him. I didn't give him permission to use my email address when I joined those two groups. He has no right to do that regardless of who he is in the indie community. It doesn't give him a free pass to break CAN-SPAM laws, and shame on you for supporting this behavior and the breach of trust. However, I do have the right to complain and warn others of this behavior, especially since it is highly relevant to his current business. Also note, he has not apologized for the inappropriate way he handled the email addresses from these groups.

Lastly, I spoke to Mailerlite and they had this to say about their API keys and what information developers can access when you give them your Mailerlite API key. I would urge anyone who is thinking of providing a developer, app, or site their API key for whatever service to do their due diligence and double check what kind of access you are granting and what information the developer will now have access to.

Hi, I have a quick question about the Mailerlite API. Can you tell me what information a developer would have access to if I gave them my API? Do they get to see my subscriber email details?

Hey [removed]!
Good to hear from you
Yes, they would have access to your subscribers and their details.
Let me know if you have further questions.
Best regards,
Silvestras
Customer Support Manager

Hi Silvestras they would see the names and the email addresses? (Sorry I just need this clarified)
And in full too? Not just the amount of subscribers or the groups but everything? Full, uncensored email addresses?

Yes, if they have your API key, they can get all info about your subscribers from our API documentation: https://developers.mailerlite.com.
Best regards,
Silvestras
Customer Support Manager

Mailerlite information that can be pulled: http://developers.mailerlite.com/reference
Mailchimp information: http://developer.mailchimp.com/documentation/mailchimp/reference/overview/

From the Mailchimp site (https://kb.mailchimp.com/integrations/api-integrations/about-api-keys?):

API keys grant full access to your MailChimp account and should be protected the same way you would protect your password.

*Disclaimer* By providing this information I am not saying Chance scrapes the subscriber information from Bookclicker, merely that, according to Mailerlite themselves that it is possible.

ETA Mailchimp links

 

[KMatthew]

Did you even read my post? I was invited and part of both the Slack and then Ryver iterations of the Bookclicker group from the start before the website was even developed. My post had nothing to do with the recent allegations regarding the site and what the devs may or may not have access to behind the scenes.

What I objected to was my email, which was given to Chance during sign-up of Slack then later Ryver, being used and put onto a newsletter list without my permission and using that list to drum up business for the Bookclicker website and being spammed by him. I didn't give him permission to use my email address when I joined those two groups. He has no right to do that regardless of who he is in the indie community. It doesn't give him a free pass to break CAN-SPAM laws, and shame on you for supporting this behavior and the breach of trust. However, I do have the right to complain and warn others of this behavior, especially since it is highly relevant to his current business. Also note, he has not apologized for the inappropriate way he handled the email addresses from these groups.

Lastly, I spoke to Mailerlite and they had this to say about their API keys and what information developers can access when you give them your Mailerlite API key. I would urge anyone who is thinking of providing a developer, app, or site their API key for whatever service to do their due diligence and double check what kind of access you are granting and what information the developer will now have access to.

Here's the information that can be pulled: http://developers.mailerlite.com/reference

*Disclaimer* By providing this information I am not saying Chance scrapes the subscriber information from Bookclicker, merely that, according to Mailerlite themselves that it is possible.

If you're going to get p*ss y over someone making their website easy to use by having Mailerlite or MailChimp API integration, then there are dozens of businesses you can attack. Maybe you should be p*ssed at Mailerlite and Mailchimp for allowing these businesses to have access to your list data and take it up with them. As you said, though, you are not accusing Chance of scraping subscriber info, so I'm not sure why your anger seems directed towards him.

Trust me, I am just as ticked off about the b.s. going on in the romance industry as everyone else is. I've been writing romance full time for over five years, made 6 figures a year doing it(and yeah, Crystal, I know who you are and have swapped with you before). My business has been devastated by the recent flood of book factories, and it sucks...because as scammy as we might all see it, what they're doing is legal, so there's no way to stop them. But blaming Chance for trying to better the author community by creating these things and then them being used by these people is like blamming Harvey for creating Kboards and letting it be populated by noobs who offer bad advice. These are communities that are and should be open to anyone in the publishing industry who is engaged in legal business practices. Chance kicks people off of Ryver that he knows to be using blackhat methods to get ahead or that are screwing other authors over. I highly doubt he ever intended for Ryver to be populated by these people, but again, what they're doing isn't illegal. And yeah, they're also the ones driving up prices on BookClicker because they're willing to pay these crazy amounts to be in newsletters to reach the top 100.

So yeah, BookClicker and Ryver ARE being used by people who are damaging the publishing industry for real authors, but real authors use them, too. I like BookClicker because I HATE networking with people on a personal level. If I want to swap with another author, I can do it without having to engage in conversation with people I don't care about forming a personal relationship with. If I want to network with other authors, I do it as friends on Facebook. If I want to engage in newsletter swaps with authors I'm not friends with but have big mailing lists, I do it on BookClicker. And as for Ryver, it's a good place to find out what's going on in KU so that you can maybe stay a few steps ahead of these book factories, or at least have enough info to be able to compete with them as a real author.

 

[Phxsundog]

Chance did intend to make scammers powerful though. He charged them thousands in his mastermind groups to hold their hands and teach them everything. He was their guru and their instructor. He knew who they were all along, blackhat internet marketers. David Gaughran said it in his bad boy article and you can go on other romance forums any day and hear the same thing. Many scammers wouldn't have learned to bury veteran authors without Chance teaching them everything. He didn't create Bookclicker to help authors. He made it to help the same scummy publishers more powerful so he can keep justifying big tuition fees from them.

 

[Crystal_]

Well my pen name is Crystal. I'm not exactly undercover.

My point is that it is a concern if Chance is ignoring SPAM laws, bc I don't want to risk the mailing list I've cultivated for years. For new authors or more book factory authors, there's less of a risk. It's the established authors with loyal lists who are most valuable for swapping. And for advice (of course, new authors can also have successes and lots to say, and sometimes older authors get set in their ways and fail to keep up with the times).

I use BC bc it's easy, but seeing so many questionable looking pen names there makes me hesitant to keep using it. It's not easy if I have to screen every pen name I don't recognize. At that point, I might as well so if swaps on FB. There's a reason why you don't see anyone like Meghan Quinn or Staci Hart on BC.