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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'll start this topic out using a quote from another kindle owner:

"I didn't buy books, I bought the right of rental-vision or the right to read the book, on their device."

what this boils down to is when we "purchase" a book, or other kindle download, it's not transferable in any way. That implies we don't actually "own" what was purchased. If we own something we have full options of what to do w/ that item. Having something stored in our personal "library" at amazon doesn't allow us personal freedom regarding how that item is used in the future.

I've been a major book sharer all my life & enjoy handing a book to someone when I think they'd really like it. Thru the years, too, we've pulled old books off the shelf for one of the kids, either thinking they'd enjoy the subject or it would work for a class assignment. Having control over such "transfers" has always been taken for granted as part of ownership.

I have a kindle, given to me as a gift. Before today I thought if I read a book I really like & want to have on hand to share I'd just purchase a "regular" copy. However, we really shouldn't have to only have that opiton. Amazon should acknowledge up-front that customers are RENTING, or design a way to allow PURCHASERS/OWNERS of the material to do whatever they want w/ THE PURCHASES. There could be a "rental" option or "purchase" (ie: download to personal computer in similar fashion as audible.com). Rentals could be "turned in" for a partial refund or credit, or applied to full purchase of the same item. Maybe if people begin contacting Amazon about this issue, they'll be forced to say you're renting or make it transferable.
 

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I understand the whole DRM debate, but here's the thing:

You are the owner of your Kindle book, but only one copy. Just like a print book. You can download it to your computer and put it on any Kindle you want. It is true you can't use it on a non-Kindle device, but you made the choice to buy an electronic book with a proprietary format. That is a different issue than whether you own the copy or not.

These "you are only renting" arguments that keep cropping up on Kindle forums just aren't true. There are other, very valid objections to DRM, but that's not one of them.
 

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I actually agree with this point.  I understand that they want to prevent unauthorized copying of the digital content, but I think there is an easy work-around:

Amazon needs to add a feature to both the Kindle Store and the Kindles themselves, allowing consumers to send their digital purchases to other Kindle owners.  Once they are sent to the next Kindle owner, the content is then deregistered from the initial purchaser's library (either deleted entirely, or even better still listed in your library, but locked and marked with a "Loaned to Jane Doe's Kindle").

It would be just like loaning out a book...you wouldn't have the rights to read the material until the borrower sent it back to you.

And frankly, this scenario would not be any sort of a stretch for Amazon.  They are already authorizing and tracking DRM rights per Amazon account.  Wouldn't take much to transfer between accounts as well.
 

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Just Wondering said:
I understand the whole DRM debate, but here's the thing:

You are the owner of your Kindle book, but only one copy. Just like a print book. You can download it to your computer and put it on any Kindle you want. It is true you can't use it on a non-Kindle device, but you made the choice to buy an electronic book with a proprietary format. That is a different issue than whether you own the copy or not.

These "you are only renting" arguments that keep cropping up on Kindle forums just aren't true. There are other, very valid objections to DRM, but that's not one of them.
Actually, you can't put a drm book on another Kindle. It is registered to the serial number of your own Kindle and will not open on another Kindle unless the Kindles are on the same account.
 

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DRM = Digital Rights Management, or copy protection, if you prefer.

A lot of people argue that the Kindle is the wrong device because you can only buy books that have DRM, and "information wants to be free" therefore you shouldn't buy anything that has DRM. What these people are overlooking is the fact that you can fill up your Kindle with millions of free books from the Internet without ever using amazon.com's purchasing service. You can read these books wherever you want. Not just on the Kindle.

I think people look at ownership in the wrong eye when it comes to debates about copy protection. Authors and publishers are trying to protect their intellectual property, just like musicians were when they agreed to sell music over iTunes (which recently dropped the DRM, but used to have a stringent copy protection on their songs). If you sell something without copy protection you may as well be giving it away for free, because all it takes is one person to buy that item and put it up for download on the internet. "Sharing" in the language of the Internet is often a euphemism for piracy, where in one person buys something, and "shares" it with millions of his closest friends.  

Understandable if you're not part of the "DRM is evil because it stops me from pirating things" crowd, but you see a lot of that on the internet, and I think that's what Benjamin was reacting to.

You can also trade Kindle books between family members so long as they all have a Kindle registered to your account. I suspect that this will change in the future, since non-DRM files are becoming more and more popular, but for now, Amazon.com is doing everything they can to convince the authors and publishers that there's some protection for their product, and buying from Amazon.com won't just make it easier for people to pirate their books.
 

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Kathy,

You are right, I knew that but wasn't thinking. I am so used to using DRM music and just registering another device to download to a different device. I know with Kindle it is more awkward. Perhaps they could allow multiple registrations just for the purpose of transferring, but not buying. That is certainly technologically possible
 

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Kathy said:
Actually, you can't put a drm book on another Kindle. It is registered to the serial number of your own Kindle and will not open on another Kindle unless the Kindles are on the same account.
That is not true. Many people have reported that they have been able to register a friends Kindle on their account, load books onto the new Kindle, deregister the Kindle, and the books have stayed on the Kindle. When the book is deleted, the person is not able to re-upload the book because it is not in their account.

Additionally, you can register multiple Kindles to an account with 6 people being able to have the same book on their Kindle at the same time. So the books are not specific to a Kindle but to a Kindle account.

JOkindle: If you wish to share books you can, you have to register that persons Kindle to your account, add the book, and then deregister their Kindle.
 

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JOkindle said:
what this boils down to is when we "purchase" a book, or other kindle download, it's not transferable in any way. That implies we don't actually "own" what was purchased. If we own something we have full options of what to do w/ that item. Having something stored in our personal "library" at amazon doesn't allow us personal freedom regarding how that item is used in the future.
I think what you are describing is indeed one of the drawbacks of book-readers, and DRM'd (or rights-protected) content like Kindle Store books.

DRM has its place, I think, although it's interesting how the music world is moving away from DRM after much turmoil and clumsy attempts to implement it.

There seems to be a progression, or maybe a maturity curve, that occurs with this type of technology problem:

1 - First, there is resistance from the creators and publishers to have their content available in digital form.
2 - Then, there is acceptance, but a tendency to apply heavy DRM controls to avoid widespread pirating of the content.
3 - As the technology matures, it becomes easy and preferable for most people to purchase the content as opposed to pirating it. At that point, DRM becomes more of a nuisance than a help, and the content becomes available DRM-free.

That is what is happening now with music tracks, and I think it's only a matter of time before we see that happening with videos/movies, and eventually with digitized books as well.
 

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Additionally, sharing is far more complicated with a digital copy of anything than it is with a physical copy.

Here's a scenario:

You read a book, you like it, so you let a friend have the book to read it. There is still only ever one copy of the book in the equation.

Change that book into a digital e-book and you run into a problem. You cannot "share" a digital copy of anything without making a copy of it, therefore breaking copyright law. To share an ebook with someone you either give them a copy of it on a disc or flash drive or e-mail it to them, but you retain the original copy. Now your friend has a free copy of the book which he/she has no reason to delete when he/she is done reading it.

Do you see the problem?
 

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stargazer0725 said:
I actually agree with this point. I understand that they want to prevent unauthorized copying of the digital content, but I think there is an easy work-around:

Amazon needs to add a feature to both the Kindle Store and the Kindles themselves, allowing consumers to send their digital purchases to other Kindle owners. Once they are sent to the next Kindle owner, the content is then deregistered from the initial purchaser's library (either deleted entirely, or even better still listed in your library, but locked and marked with a "Loaned to Jane Doe's Kindle").

It would be just like loaning out a book...you wouldn't have the rights to read the material until the borrower sent it back to you.

And frankly, this scenario would not be any sort of a stretch for Amazon. They are already authorizing and tracking DRM rights per Amazon account. Wouldn't take much to transfer between accounts as well.
This is actually a pretty good idea and seems implementable. It models nicely the 'real-world' handling of a purchased book.
 

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ProfCrash said:
JOkindle: If you wish to share books you can, you have to register that persons Kindle to your account, add the book, and then deregister their Kindle.
I agree that it is "possible" to share books in this manner, but it is probably a technical violation of the DRM agreement (at least a definite grey).

Allowing Kindle owners to transfer their DRM rights to another Kindle owner is a valid way of operating within the DRM agreement - no more than one person can read the content at any given time.

But I'm sure that Amazon would not be interested in doing this. They want to sell books to people. Why allow people to sell their book rights to someone else, when they can sell a brand spanking new "book" themselves.
 

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stargazer0725 said:
Amazon needs to add a feature to both the Kindle Store and the Kindles themselves, allowing consumers to send their digital purchases to other Kindle owners. Once they are sent to the next Kindle owner, the content is then deregistered from the initial purchaser's library (either deleted entirely, or even better still listed in your library, but locked and marked with a "Loaned to Jane Doe's Kindle").

It would be just like loaning out a book...you wouldn't have the rights to read the material until the borrower sent it back to you.
Exactly correct. This is how it should be done. Our Kindle "books" should be no different than our paper books.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
thanks to all for explanations & information...

when I used the word "transfer", that's exactly what I meant, not intending to imply copy. And I now understand how the word "share" is misunderstood.

stargazer's description re: transferring, which allows amazon to retain control makes a lot of sense, to me.

I use audible.com for kindle downloads. could someone explain the difference re: copy protection/the acceptance of how they provide material?
 

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Harvey,

You have described the behavioral change that is the primary reason DRM is being removed from music. As more people became comfortable with buying non-physical media, and they got used to the prices (which have decreased), behavior changed. The original Napster and other pirate sites thrived because a large number of people have a certain amount of larceny in their hearts ("stick it to the man"). But convenience and lower prices eventually won out and people accepted the fact that there is a value proposition in buying the products. The same thing will happen to books. Print book prices will continue to increase (it is a relatively low margin business and the costs of paper, printing, transportation, etc. will go up), and electronic media will continue to decrease in price. At some point the price gap will reach a critical point where people with view the electronic version as having sufficient value that they will not bother to spend too much time trying to cheat the system.

I should also note that the rush to DRM by music publishers was in response to massive illegal copying through file sharing. I suspect it won't be long before book publishers realize that the nature of the book product is such that there is unlikely to be widespread file sharing problems.
 

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stargazer0725 said:
I agree that it is "possible" to share books in this manner, but it is probably a technical violation of the DRM agreement (at least a definite grey).

Allowing Kindle owners to transfer their DRM rights to another Kindle owner is a valid way of operating within the DRM agreement - no more than one person can read the content at any given time.

But I'm sure that Amazon would not be interested in doing this. They want to sell books to people. Why allow people to sell their book rights to someone else, when they can sell a brand spanking new "book" themselves.
But that is not the case. Six people can read a book at the same time. They just have to be registered to your account to do so.
 

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ProfCrash said:
But that is not the case. Six people can read a book at the same time. They just have to be registered to your account to do so.
I understand that 6 people on the same Amazon account can read the same book.

But you specifically mentioned registering and then deregistering the Kindle from the account, once the download is accomplished. In this fashion, a person could register and deregister 50 Kindles and transfer the same books to all 50 Kindles. This totally circumvents the intent of the DRM agreement.

My point is why does Amazon force people to operate in this grey area, when there is a very viable way to legally manage DRM rights built right into their system. All it would take is a simple software upgrade.
 

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stargazer0725 said:
I understand that 6 people on the same Amazon account can read the same book.

But you specifically mentioned registering and then deregistering the Kindle from the account, once the download is accomplished. In this fashion, a person could register and deregister 50 Kindles and transfer the same books to all 50 Kindles. This totally circumvents the intent of the DRM agreement.

My point is why does Amazon force people to operate in this grey area, when there is a very viable way to legally manage DRM rights built right into their system. All it would take is a simple software upgrade.
Agreed. I thought you said that one person could be reading the book at a time when it is one account as access to the book.

The registering/deregistering thing is a grey area. If I bought a physical book I could share it and no one would say it was a grey area. I owned the book so I can do what I want with the book. But now that I own an electronic copy of a book, I am restricted with how I use it. I do have a problem with that. I don't want to place books n a website that anyone can download. I want to be able to share a book with my SIL and my Brother. That shouldn't be so hard to do.

If I was able to send the copy to someone and then they could share it, I would see the problem. Being able to share it with family and friends should not be a problem.
 

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And frankly, now that I think about it, this might be a better deal for Amazon.

Think of it this way....

You download a book to your Amazon account.  With that single purchase of $9.99, Amazon has just allowed 6 people to read the book simultaneously (family book club, anyone?).

Now, imagine a scenario where every single Kindle owner is forced to have their own Amazon Kindle account, with individual DRM rights, BUT they are allowed to "loan out" their books.

Kindle owners would get the benefit of being able to share their purchases, and Amazon would possibly reap higher sales from people that want to read the book at the same time.   i.e. If you and your best friend want to read the book at the same time, you both have to purchase a copy (good for Amazon).  Or your best friend will have to be patient and can "borrow" it after you are finished (good for Kindle owner).
 
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