[going going gone]

I withhold my consent. If I am banned for that I expect all data on me to be deleted.

Everything I've posted. Anything that's been harvested from me.

I've shared advice and experience through the years here, in the spirit of sharing openly with other indies. Sometimes I've shared things I regret, such as when sharing what a hungry market I wrote to soon led to a bunch of "marketers" (and botters) hitting the genre hard. I'm not so naive lately. (Of course that could have been a total coincidence, as a lot of genres were hit hard around the same time.)

I certainly do NOT consent to have anything about my profile, writing here, or anything else about me/ my writing/ my books harvested by VerticalScope for any use: advertising, monetary, or other.

sounds smart.

 

[Avis Black]

None of my forum posts are sellable or monetizable, in the sense of actually persuading someone to cough up good money to read my posts, which are publicly available anyway.  It's not worth monetizing anything if you can't get someone to pay.  I've put up a few book reviews of stuff I've read, some of which are cross-posted to Goodreads, but those reviews have already done all the 'selling' for those books that any reviews can manage to get. 

I'm inclined to wait and see if they do anything bad. If they do, I'd delete everything I could and my account as well. 

 

[Alan Petersen]

Not sure if just declaring an objection does anything.

We all checked the little tick-box agreeing to the terms when we registered. I think the only way to get scrubbed is to ask the tech people that run the site to delete your account and all your posts from the database. But as I've mentioned above I would suspect just about every forum out there has that type of verbiage in their terms which we agree to when registering for the forum.

That other forum Indie Author Haven is hosted on a free ProBoards forum which has the same exact verbiage (see #4):
https://www.proboards.com/tos

And there you giving it to a third-party, ProBoards.

I'm not a lawyer or anything so this just my take on things. Consult an attorney to see if just writing a post taking it back is enough.

 

[eleutheria]

I somehow think the new owners would be willing to use that part of the TOS in ways we don't like a lot more than the old owners were, regardless of whether the new owners added or if it's always been there.

 

[j64nVzSa9hJC1Z]

Hell no. This is not cool. Between this and the skeevy ads, this whole new ownership thing feels dirty, and not in a good way.

I'm a newbie here and will probably delete my account. I've not contributed enough here to make a difference.

I've been a longtime member (also moderator) of the Blueboards--a kidlit writing community started by Verla Kay and it was bought by SCBWI and it's clean with different levels of privacy--the open board, the registered members, the SCBWI section for paying members, etc. We had tech issues while merging but things run smoothly now. If anybody has interest, they can probably contact her to see how to set up a forum without the nonsense.

 

[bdwilson]

According to the wayback machine, this ToS wasn't there at least back in March. This is the copy they have of the previous registration agreement (from July 2017):

http://web.archive.org/web/20170701054543/https://www.kboards.com:80/show-reg-agreement.php

(That was the only thing I saw that resembled a terms of service.)

Those are very different. A change this size should have required us to opt-in again.

Edit: Link fail. Forum keeps changing the kboards URL to https and breaking the way back link. So, uh, I guess take the s out?

 

[TheWriterFormerly]

I always, as a matter of course, read all terms when signing up to any apps, websites, or other services. This is not a simple boilerplate. It resembles an odious paragraph which appears in several less reputable services. It is a section which always sends me away from whoever is using it. Yes, there are paragraphs similar to this in almost every forum's terms of service, however the wording is different in critical ways which alter the meaning to be much less odious and purely about what they require to legally display what you post within the scope of the website. This one is about ownership, as well as further exploitation of material, and has no end of licence or whatever to allow a writer to cancel the relationship.

I do not grant the consent this change demands. I will never grant the ownership this change demands.

I was not notified of the change, and it was certainly a change. If this was in the terms when I first signed up, I would have cancelled my membership on the spot.

Also, can somebody point me to the information about this "new owner" thing? It's the first I have heard of it.

As a result I have changed my display name, deleted my signature, and the posts being too many to go through and delete, I have scanned through and taken out any images or blurbs or valuable content regarding my works. I will consider deleting everything based on the response from the site.

 

[bdwilson]

Also, can somebody point me to the information about this "new owner" thing? It's the first I have heard of it.

The announcement can be found here: https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,265925.0.html

 

[VirginiaMcClain]

Just throwing in with everyone else who has stated here that I do not give consent to this change of terms. Nor shall I ever give said consent.

 

[johannesrexx]

Once again we are reminded that when a service is free, we are the product. Always read the EULA. And yes an unethical company will simply post whatever terms and conditions they like in some dirty obscure little corner of its website and change it whenever the mood strikes them.

South Park even did an episode on the importance of reading the EULA. It's called HumancentiPad.

I'm very pleased that Lynn Is a Pseudonym was alert to this and shared it. Now we can make informed choices. Thank you.

Maybe paying $5/month to be free from oppressive and exploitative EULAs is worth it. Privacy and freedom matter.

Best wishes to all of you.

 

[98700]

This is bollocks. There's no reasonable reason at all that the site needs those rights. But, like with the ads, this doesn't surprise me, considering the new owners.

 

[TheWriterFormerly]

The announcement can be found here: https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,265925.0.html

Thanks for that. I feel that these changes betray the legacy of Harvey and his family, and break the spirit of the sale of kboards. This is not on, not acceptable, and to be forgivable requires serious backpedalling and change of attitude within the mindset of the new owners. I am greatly saddened, as this feels like a loss of home and a shattering of bonds. I miss Harvey like we all do - he an his family built this wonderful place, and sold it in good faith when it was the right time for them to do so. the actions of the new owners have been seemless so far, but then we find out this has been slipped past us in the background, and it feels like a total betrayal. I will miss kboards, and if this change is not reversed, I will have to find a new home.

 

[AltMe]

I would love to find a message board for writers that is NOT indexed by Google and has "can't read until you register" forums (as in you can see the forums exist but can't read the posts unless you're a registered member). I hate that so many are open and indexed by search engines.
If anyone has recs for a forum like I described, please post!

Seriously...anyone know of a board we can migrate to that isn't erotica and doesn't have TOS that says they own what you write? Even if it's paid.

It's not difficult to build a new site, where nothing can be read without being registered. All you need is your own site, and the right up to date forum software.

Such things like the offending wording here, can be edited as part of the installation. And you can make areas visible to the non-registered, and completely private, including sections for specific people only.

I've done this a number of times in the past. The main problem is, not enough people move to the new forum to make it viable, and given a few month down the track, the few dozen starters drop out because there are no new people joining.

One thing I am very disappointed about was the fact the previous owners didn't offer to sell to forum users first, either as a collective, or to someone for whom the costs of running the forum are not even an issue. We didn't even know the forum was for sale, and I for one would have been interested in buying it. I may not have been able to raise the price, but there are people here who could have.

I can build an alternative forum, without the ads, without the rights issues, without the post editing, but still moderated as fairly as possible. It can have more areas, such as for craft and marketing, keeping the posts separate. But we'd lose a lot of the tools, including the signature maker.

But will anyone use it? Probably not. I would set one up if a couple of hundred people wanted it, all of whom are here daily. Otherwise, it isn't worth the effort.

I think it is worth doing, but it needs a significant number of people who not only register there on day 1, but actively post every day, the same as here.

My experience though is people never like to move, regardless of the problems where they are. I've been monitoring the recently set up board, which has the same issues as mentioned in this thread, and while it gets posts, it's not what I call viable yet, and possibly never will be.

It might be simpler to get a group together and attempt to buy Kboards back from the new owners.

 

[Alan Petersen]

According to the wayback machine, this ToS wasn't there at least back in March. This is the copy they have of the previous registration agreement (from July 2017):

http://web.archive.org/web/20170701054543/https://www.kboards.com:80/show-reg-agreement.php

(That was the only thing I saw that resembled a terms of service.)

Those are very different. A change this size should have required us to opt-in again.

Edit: Link fail. Forum keeps changing the kboards URL to https and breaking the way back link. So, uh, I guess take the s out?

Interesting. It does look like Vertical Scope added the new terms. The link to that verbiage in on their URL. So looks like Harvey didn't have that verbiage in there and the new owners added it. I do agree such a big change should have at the very least resulted in an email warning to read the new terms to re-confirm we accept the changes/new terms.

 

[TheWriterFormerly]

I once ran a large and popular forum, and when it closed, the thing that was lost was not simply the forum, it was the community - comprised of tens of thousands of people who read the forum and many of those who posted to it. We are the valuable part of kboards. So if we move, we move on mass, and the community - that is us - lives on somewhere else. It is not expensive to run a simple forum, where you are not providing masses of downloads or other bandwidth intensive things. My old gaming forum had dozens of gigabytes of user created download files, and still did not break the bank. But it broke the clock. This is one thing that kills new forums - the creators time is always limited, and keeping it lively enough to reach critical mass and float above the dross of the Internet takes that most critical resource. So you need a great team, and that is what I guess they thought they were selling kboards to.

 

[Tobias Roote]

The problem with new writer forums is a complex issue. You first need to achieve critical mass, which can take forever. You then have to have a forum that is properly managed, which takes people. Nobody likes to feel they're in a vacuum so you also need to have a means of making it worth the author's while to be there and post - ergo you need readers and fans. It then becomes a full-time job that also requires servers and bandwidth which means a revenue stream is required. All of this requires commitment. Then you have the biggest problem of all which is balance. How do you ensure that the posting, management, moderation and control is kept even-handed. Kboards isn't and not many others I know are either. If you have authors controlling authors you're going to get issues with bullying, intimidation and pressure to conform to one group's standards. You need clear-cut rules of engagement, clearly defined protocols for handling disputes, proper management of offenders and above all a means of redress for all. In addition, you need to provide a balanced platform for major issues without curtailing the right of an individual's freedom of speech. Not an easy task and there are few forums up to the task of managing all that.

 

[vagabond.voyager]

I normally don't think of stuff like this as bothersome, but I know some of you use your author names as your usernames, and you could find your words used to promote this site on other vertical scope websites.

Unless I'm reading this wrong.

Anyway, not sure it's a problem, but you know how it goes. Someone's nice today and a bear tomorrow.

This is not enforceable in law if not agreed to at the time of joining. It is a bluff, and if a lawsuit arose regarding misuse of a contributor's material, the contributor would win as no contract can be enforced if not initially agreed to by both parties. Nothing can be legally binding if the person involved was not made aware of the conditions. It is like those signs in stores that claim that by entering you are agreeing to have your bags searched on exit. They are not valid, and where court cases have arisen, the store has lost.

 

[Betsy the Quilter]

I know that there was some language at some point in our ToS that allowed things posted here to be used in advertisement; I remember a conversation about it when Harvey still ran the forum. If I can find it, I'll post it, but it was years ago.

Someone asked about PMs. PMs are private. We cannot see people's PMs unless a recipient reports the PM using the in-PM report feature.

Someone else asked about editing posts. I believe that our mod staff is extremely ethical and is committed to only removing material that violates Forum Decorum. However, if a moderator has edited a post, the fact that an edit has been made is shown in the post and that fact (though not the actual edit) is tracked in a database of moderator actions. If you disagree with a moderator edit, you can report the post and request we review that moderator's actions. You can also delete the post if you think it no longer reflects your views as long as it doesn't start the thread. You can contact the owners using the contact link at the bottom of every KBoards page.

I hope this clarifies a couple of issues that were raised in this thread.

Betsy
KB Admin

 

[TheWriterFormerly]

Not just that, but two critical words in that are "irrevocable," and "perpetual," meaning those rights being claimed can never be rolled back under these terms.

 

[LL2018]

Deleted.