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That just happened with a book, When Harry Became Sally. It's been delisted in Amazon but is still available from the publisher's site. Lesson: every writer should have his/her own website, and should be prepared to, if necessary, rexograph their own books and send them out.

Joking about the rexograph, but the point is: be prepared.
Totally agree with you on this part. And in addition to having your own website, your own newsletter, too.
 

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That just happened with a book, When Harry Became Sally. It's been delisted in Amazon but is still available from the publisher's site. Lesson: every writer should have his/her own website, and should be prepared to, if necessary, rexograph their own books and send them out.

Joking about the rexograph, but the point is: be prepared.
Or you know don't write a nonfactual propaganda book that hurts others? Personally I'm glad that Amazon has stepped up time and again to stand against disinformation. A populace fed full of lies is a dangerous thing, and we've already seen that play out. We're talking about rights so much, but what about responsibilities? Why should Amazon have to take on the responsibility of disseminating this garbage if they don't want to? All these asshats crying about their free speech rights while trying to take away everyone else's rights to exist can pound sand.
 

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Or you know don't write a nonfactual propaganda book that hurts others? Personally I'm glad that Amazon has stepped up time and again to stand against disinformation. A populace fed full of lies is a dangerous thing, and we've already seen that play out. We're talking about rights so much, but what about responsibilities? Why should Amazon have to take on the responsibility of disseminating this garbage if they don't want to? All these asshats crying about their free speech rights while trying to take away everyone else's rights to exist can pound sand.
So I take it that you think Amazon should remove Mein Kampf?

What's the "disinformation" you refer to? Did you read the book?

Do you really mean that anything that hurts people's feelings should be censored - and that anyone who disagrees with YOU is an asshat?
 

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So I take it that you think Amazon should remove Mein Kampf?
I believe I already answered this, which is that I couldn't care less. That book is free online from multiple sources and everyone already knows exactly what it is. The other book, however, is written by someone with a hateful agenda posing as an expert on a topic he knows jack all about. It's disingenuous and misleading. Amazon is 100% right not to support that. He can put it on his own little website. The "you have to tolerate my intolerance or else you're intolerant" schtick is getting really old.
 

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I believe I already answered this, which is that I couldn't care less. That book is free online from multiple sources and everyone already knows exactly what it is. The other book, however, is written by someone with a hateful agenda posing as an expert on a topic he knows jack all about. It's disingenuous and misleading. Amazon is 100% right not to support that. He can put it on his own little website. The "you have to tolerate my intolerance or else you're intolerant" schtick is getting really old.
So what Mein Kampf is free - I didn't ask you that. I asked you whether a blueprint for genocide should be on Amazon - and you don't care. But you do think that someone who wrote a book that you disagree with should get kicked off. It has nothing to do with his expertise - it has to do with the fact that you disagree with him.

I hate a lot of books on Amazon. I don't want them removed. That's the difference between you and me: you're a coward. I'm not.
 

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So what Mein Kampf is free - I didn't ask you that. I asked you whether a blueprint for genocide should be on Amazon - and you don't care. But you do think that someone who wrote a book that you disagree with should get kicked off. It has nothing to do with his expertise - it has to do with the fact that you disagree with him.

I hate a lot of books on Amazon. I don't want them removed. That's the difference between you and me: you're a coward. I'm not.
The description on the Amazon listing is truthful about what's inside (a lesson in not repeating history not something to emulate) and the proceeds from it are donated to Jewish charities, so I think they are being as responsible as they can considering it is ultimately a historically significant book that many people would want to research for educational purposes.

I don't just "disagree" with the other book. It is factually inaccurate propaganda written by someone with zero credentials on the subject that purports itself to be an unbiased take from an expert. If someone were selling laundry powder in a sugar box, would Amazon be wrong to remove it? Disinformation is growing problem that will destroy this country if no one stands up, so kudos to Amazon for standing up.

And you want to know what's cowardly as hell? All these people who cry about their free speech who are never willing to take any responsibility for said speech.
 

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The description on the Amazon listing is truthful about what's inside (a lesson in not repeating history not something to emulate) and the proceeds from it are donated to Jewish charities, so I think they are being as responsible as they can considering it is ultimately a historically significant book that many people would want to research for educational purposes.

I don't just "disagree" with the other book. It is factually inaccurate propaganda written by someone with zero credentials on the subject that purports itself to be an unbiased take from an expert. If someone were selling laundry powder in a sugar box, would Amazon be wrong to remove it? Disinformation is growing problem that will destroy this country if no one stands up, so kudos to Amazon for standing up.
Your point about the proceeds of MK going to Jewish charities is totally irrelevant. The book is a blueprint for genocide. The fact that it's out there is triggering to some.

There are many nasty books on Amazon. There are books that blame the entire slave trade on Jews. I don't ask for them to be removed. And I won't. The answer to bad scholarship is better scholarship. I've learned a lot by reading anti-Semitic books and tracing their sources, which are always distorted - but the experience has been educational.

I haven't read the other book, so I can't say whether it's propaganda or what, but again, so what? There's another book about the same subject. Do you want that removed, too?
 

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There are many nasty books on Amazon. There are books that blame the entire slave trade on Jews. I don't ask for them to be removed. And I won't.
When did I ask them to remove anything? They decided to remove it. All I said is that I agree with their decision to remove it. But also if someone wants to ask Amazon to remove something don't they have the free speech right to do that according to your all-encompassing definition? Seems that it's really like I thought. Rights for me but not for thee. Unwilling third parties better publish my garbage, but anyone who has a problem with it better shut up.
 

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Your point about the proceeds of MK going to Jewish charities is totally irrelevant. The book is a blueprint for genocide. The fact that it's out there is triggering to some.
The fact that it exists at all is probably what's triggering to people. But preventing people from being able to read and study it would do nothing but give holocaust-deniers the opportunity to try to peddle their propaganda.
 

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When did I ask them to remove anything? They decided to remove it. All I said is that I agree with their decision to remove it. But also if someone wants to ask Amazon to remove something don't they have the free speech right to do that according to your all-encompassing definition? Seems that it's really like I thought. Rights for me but not for thee. Unwilling third parties better publish my garbage, but anyone who has a problem with it better shut up.
I didn't say YOU asked for them to be removed, I was comparing your responses to mine. You said you were "glad" they removed a book that offended you.

Duh. There's two seconds of my life that I'll want back on my deathbed.

I'd tell you to listen to yourself but I think you're deaf, so I'll just point out some inconsistencies & let readers decide for themselves.

"Rights for me but not for thee" -- but you want to remove everything that offends your delicate sensibilities so no one else can make up their own minds. Although a book about transgenders rates, while Mein Kampf doesn't ("I couldn't care less".)

"Rights for me but not for thee" -- WTF? I specifically said I think anti-Semitic books about how Jews controlled the slave trade should be allowed to stay on Amazon.

A person who advances an argument that bothers YOU is an "asshat."

You are a perfect example of trying to reason with the unreasonable. I think any rational person reading this can see who is the reasonable one here.

And again, for those who can read & comprehend (which specifically excludes Paranormal Kitty): I'm not calling this government censorship, although I'm going to follow the arguments about monopoly control.

I'm calling it a witch hunt, led by vicious, ignorant cowards, of which Paranormal Kitty is a prime example.
 

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The fact that it exists at all is probably what's triggering to people. But preventing people from being able to read and study it would do nothing but give holocaust-deniers the opportunity to try to peddle their propaganda.
Exactly. In fact, Yehuda Bauer, an Israeli historian of the Holocaust has said that reading some deniers helped to sharpen his research skills. I've learned a lot about colonial Jewish history by reading the Nation of Islam's screeds. Their stuff is distorted, but I have to say they've delved deeply into the subject. None of what they say would pass muster at a decent history course. Professor Henry Louis Gates would, I'm positive, give them an F for cherry-picking and distortion.

But throw them off Amazon? Nope. And I still have the right to say that Amazon f'd up royally by de-listing the book I mentioned. Do they have that right? Yes. Were they right? No. In my opinion.

One more thing and then I'm out of this discussion. One of the many reasons I disagree with de-listing "offensive" books from Amazon is that it contributes to a climate of fear and a climate of fear infects everything it touches, including the universities. I can easily see a situation where the Paranormal Kitties take over the history faculties, when the real scholars like Henry Louis Gates are no longer with us.

At that point, students will be able to hand in any kind of garbage, based on Nation of Islam "scholarship" and professors will be too intimidated to flunk them. Giving in to outrage mobs does that.
 

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D.E.M. maybe I missed something but I don't think anyone here is pro censorship. I thought it was a question of if corporations become these monoliths that have power and influence over the government, is there any difference between government censorship and Amazon not selling your book? The premise isn't about whether or not Amazon should sell trans-phobic books because a historical document (that could never be erased even if we wanted to) also happens to be sold there. The people who don't believe Amazon should be forced to sell anything aren't going to be fussed about it, and the people who think this is the slippery slope are.
 

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D.E.M. maybe I missed something but I don't think anyone here is pro censorship. I thought it was a question of if corporations become these monoliths that have power and influence over the government, is there any difference between government censorship and Amazon not selling your book? The premise isn't about whether or not Amazon should sell trans-phobic books because a historical document (that could never be erased even if we wanted to) also happens to be sold there. The people who don't believe Amazon should be forced to sell anything aren't going to be fussed about it, and the people who think this is the slippery slope are.
Actually, someone here was pro-censorship. Read the entire thread.

Your point about monopoly power is a good one.
 

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If the tech giants became giants at the behest of an intertwined government-corporate entity, to the point where these giants come to dominate society, culture, and the conversation - what then is the difference between one of these behemoths banishing you from the conversation and the government doing it? Semantics?

Technically, Facebook or Twitter cutting you off is not 'government censorship' in the old textbook sense, but if you understand how Facebook and Twitter got to be Facebook and Twitter then I'm not sure how and where you could draw the distinction. And, as we've seen, regardless who's doing it, the effect is the same.
 

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"Rights for me but not for thee" -- but you want to remove everything that offends your delicate sensibilities so no one else can make up their own minds. Although a book about transgenders rates, while Mein Kampf doesn't ("I couldn't care less".)
I couldn't care less whether they sell that book because it's entirely inconsequential. Anyone can read it for free, everyone already knows about it and Hitler isn't alive to profit from it. I'd support them selling any of these other garbage books if they put the same kind of disclaimer on it and gave all the proceeds to charity instead of the author.

I also believe that I explained to you that the other book isn't a "book about transgenders" but is misleading and deceptive. Look up "When Harry Became Sally" on GoodReads and read the description. Someone unfamiliar with the topic gets the impression that this guy knows what he's talking about, but then when you look at his author profile it becomes clear that he's a bigot with an agenda and no credentials on the subject. I can see why Amazon would have perhaps got customer complaints from people who didn't know what they were getting until they were several pages or chapters into it. Whereas the other book on the same subject that you linked was pretty in your face batshit crazy.

Is there a reason you're feeling so personally attacked by this whole conversation? I don't think anyone was talking about you personally so how is this a "witch hunt"? If you think that Amazon should be forced to sell whatever, contact your congress people or start a petition. Fact is they have the right to make those decisions, and just because I agree with some of their choices and you don't doesn't mean I'm personally attacking you. Everyone isn't required to agree with you.
 

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Actually, someone here was pro-censorship. Read the entire thread.

Your point about monopoly power is a good one.
I did read the entire thread. I must've missed it. I've only seen people argue whether or not this is censorship, and the back and forth that's stemmed from there. Those that argue it's not censorship obviously care less about your examples than those who think it is.

But it would be remiss of me not to point out you seem to be projecting on Paranormal Kitty and making this unnecessarily personal.
 

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I couldn't care less whether they sell that book because it's entirely inconsequential. Anyone can read it for free, everyone already knows about it and Hitler isn't alive to profit from it. I'd support them selling any of these other garbage books if they put the same kind of disclaimer on it and gave all the proceeds to charity instead of the author.

I also believe that I explained to you that the other book isn't a "book about transgenders" but is misleading and deceptive. Look up "When Harry Became Sally" on GoodReads and read the description. Someone unfamiliar with the topic gets the impression that this guy knows what he's talking about, but then when you look at his author profile it becomes clear that he's a bigot with an agenda and no credentials on the subject. I can see why Amazon would have perhaps got customer complaints from people who didn't know what they were getting until they were several pages or chapters into it. Whereas the other book on the same subject that you linked was pretty in your face batshit crazy.

Is there a reason you're feeling so personally attacked by this whole conversation? I don't think anyone was talking about you personally so how is this a "witch hunt"? If you think that Amazon should be forced to sell whatever, contact your congress people or start a petition. Fact is they have the right to make those decisions, and just because I agree with some of their choices and you don't doesn't mean I'm personally attacking you. Everyone isn't required to agree with you.
One long gaslighting rant.

Enjoy your stay here. I think it's probably the majority of the writing you do.
 

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This is obviously a very controversial issue, and maybe it goes without saying, but everything here is opinion. Anyone can have an opinion. These are issues that are addressed on a societal level, not a personal one. Is what Amazon is doing legal? Yes. Should it be? Ask that question and get a million different responses. I just find it an odd argument to get into person to person bashing because it is simply conjecture. No one here is debating laws in Congress or on an international level. It's opinion. You can have the opinion to disagree, but actual right and wrong is determined by courts and differs between countries.

And yeah, there is someone here who is pro-censorship, and it's me. Or at least I don't believe that either 100% censorship or 100% non-censorship are the way to look at it. When you take a hard stance you take away your ability to form an opinion, and when you are debating opinion with a hard stance, all you're doing is saying limp words.
 

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I did read the entire thread. I must've missed it. I've only seen people argue whether or not this is censorship, and the back and forth that's stemmed from there. Those that argue it's not censorship obviously care less about your examples than those who think it is.

But it would be remiss of me not to point out you seem to be projecting on Paranormal Kitty and making this unnecessarily personal.
I'm not projecting anything on "Paranormal Kitty."

Read his/her first post regarding the Amazon de-listing, a vicious, stupid, yes, personal attack on anyone who would dare to disagree with her/him. That I dare to tangle with this person is somehow off-limits? I think not.

Paranormal Kitty is a fascist and a coward, who ducked and dodged every point I brought up, who is incapable of writing a refutation of something that offends him or her, beyond name-calling & suppression. S/he refused to deal with the essence of whether Mein Kampf should be banned from Amazon, slipping, sliding, and ducking around the issue.

Anything that s/he thinks should be suppressed is something I'd enjoy reading. I can make up my own mind as to whether the book is science, propaganda, or religion.

(WRT to Goodreads, I note that one of the one-star reviews cites a researcher named Kenneth Zucker, who gave a favorable blurb to Abigail Schrier's book, which "Paranormal Kitty" will probably also want to ban.)

With people like you controlling the culture, the government won't have to censor anything.
 
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